littlejohn33
9/25/2013 11:28 EST
Can anyone recommend a good area with cheap arable land. I am seriously considering moving my family (wife and 4 small children) to Argentina (from the Philippines) and want a place where I can develop a mostly self reliant farm and hopefully make money at it as well.
I want cheap land to develop myself. But not looking to buy right away just looking for the best area to settle in and explore for future purchase.
Looking for an area that gets enough natural rainfall that irrigation isn't normally needed.
Doesn't have to be prime farmland would prefer a few hills myself as I grew up in the Missouri Ozarks.
Can someone give a ballpark figure for bare land?
I have heard Cordoba is nice but expensive and personally I think I would prefer a bit cooler climate though my wife might prefer it there as she is from the tropics. What pictures I have seen it looks a bit flat too.
Also I'm curious if its possible to find a decent paying farm or gardening job there. I spent most of my first 30 years on a dairy, beef and forage crops farm so I have a lot of varied experience. I'm 45 now.
By decent pay I mean at least equivalent to US$1,000 a month for full time work. I am currently on disability and not sure I could hold a full time position but might give it a try depending on the type of work. I'm sure I could work part time though with a flexible boss and my wife is a good worker as well.
In my experience dairy farms in the US often have trouble getting enough help even if they pay well so figured that is the most likely opportunity for me and my wife I'm sure can learn it too.
However my preference would be gardening organically with a goal of producing the finest quality as in most nutritious food possible. Any foreigners looking for a good gardener to grow high quality food?
At present I and my wife only know a few words of Spanish so until we learn it English would be necessary.
Oh and good hunting and fishing would be great both for my enjoyment and for adding to the larder.
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frassinetti
From: Argentina
9/25/2013 18:22 EST
Hello Little John,
It al depends what you think is cheap, farming land is a expensive and long term project, land sells here in Argentina from around USD $5000 up to 25, 000. per hectare, depending where it is and what's the farming for, ....... from places like far north as Missiones and Corrientes, to Salta, Cordoba or Mendoza, Central Argentina, to farm land done in Rio Negro, or even near Big Cities like Buenos Aires and La Plata,.....as to semi arid land I have seen the price raise from 2 or 300 USD$ to over a 1000! In the last few years, ......all the same bargains are always to be found, all depends where and when you turn up!
I feel like you plane needs to be studied a bit more, the basic idea is good, but living off the land isn't that easy and having a Family you will need to be near education and health care, ........ there are various climates in Argentina, from 4 seasons to a full near summer climate, so you would need to see what climate more would be for you and then see what crop to plant, intensive or large scale, ... all that you dream off has been done before, so the important part is to see where you best fit, and the internet is a good place to start, ........ I personal did farming in Uruguay in the late 70s, earned more selling it than actually farming the land, well but that was before the Internet.
Today, I would do a mix project, maybe intensive farming of some cash crop, for sure turn some fruit into an alcoholic drink, but not grapes into wine, ... Tourism a plus, so the area should be attractive for some reason, .. even the Desert is attractive! And for sure a "service", anything from a iron smith to carpenter, a teacher of sorts, transport, here in Argentina, transport is well paid for the moment, especially free lance work, ..... tools and building green! Is new! Might try that, well the list goes on! Good Luck, hope I have been of help, Bob Frassinetti in Argentina
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frassinetti
From: Argentina
9/25/2013 19:51 EST
On Going Cash Crop as an iDea for you, ...........
Argentina: The first air exports of blueberry will depart this week
Fernando Martorell, Technician for the IDEP's Export Promotion area, confirmed that, as part of the blueberry's export season start, next week the first air export of blueberries will depart.
Martorell said that they intend to exceed the quantity exported last year. He said that the planes are larger and operated by a German company.
"It is scheduled for the week of September 23 and 26," he said, while explaining via the LV12 mobile, "that came out of the meetings we had last week with all the airlines that will be operating this year." In this regard, he said, "the conditions to start the 2013 campaign are given."
"The idea is to surpass the amount of fruit exported last year," noting that there had been 71 flights.
He explained that they didn't know how many flights would be needed to surpass last year's exports as this year's aircrafts were bigger but that they still expected to export more tons. "Hopefully it's a little more," he said, adding that "there will be variations".
Finally, he confirmed the incorporation of a new flight: "A German carrier will operate directly between Tucuman and the European Union".
Source: Masproduccion.com
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littlejohn33
9/25/2013 20:16 EST
Sounds like land is more expensive than I thought. But US$1000 isn't bad for marginal land though.
I did plan to go there myself to look things over before bringing the family. Was even hoping I might find a sponsor for them if I find someone who likes me and what I can do, as plane tickets are ridiculous.
One thing I had in the back of my mind. I wonder if fruit brandies might be practical? I however have no experience with that.
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frassinetti
From: Argentina
9/25/2013 20:47 EST
Little John, as I see it you will need to finance your own travel plans, .......... any alcoholic drink would be OK, the rarest the best, Vodka for example is an upcoming drink, made from potatoes or rice, but it can also be made from Cactus Pear Fruit, only 2 manufactures in the world at this time, ........ Cactus Pear Fruit is found from Canada to the south of Argentina, ... in arid land grows even wild, .............. and is cheap. Vodka is expensive, .........
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littlejohn33
9/25/2013 22:27 EST
I know finding a sponsor is a long shot just hoping. Would even be willing to take out a loan for it if I found a decent job. My disability is enough to live on its just getting the family there that is the problem.
As for blueberries it sounds great. Two fruits I really miss here in the Philippines are blueberries and peaches. We had good ones in the Ozarks.
I have had a bit of a dream of building a underground tunneled structure for a small resort/bed and breakfast type thing. Don't think cave but multiple tunnels similar to Hobbit houses with nice windows. Would mean finding the right hill, hopefully with a decent view.
Blueberries, peaches and tunnel structures take time, though not a lot of money, except perhaps irrigation for blueberries, they need to be kept damp.
The brandy I was thinking of would be like peach, berry or some other locally cheap crop that makes a good one. I rather like blackberry brandy but I honestly don't drink much of any alcohol. I wonder if blueberries can be made into brandy?
No idea what it would cost to set up a brandy facility.
Right now my wife and I run a internet cafe/boarding house with a small restaurant in the Philippines. I helped my parents with a bed and breakfast in the past also.
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TomP
9/26/2013 09:48 EST
First I thank Bob Frassinetti for taking the time to answer a lot of good questions about Argentina because Bob knows the Argentine turf.
However, I also want to add my take of suitable land for raising crops including grapes in San Rafael, Mendoza Province, Argentina.
My wife and I own La Vida Buena Vineyards, a 108-acre vineyard development in San Rafael with nine individual Owners who have planted 47.5-acres of vineyards. Are grapes are sold each year to Mumms and Bianchi and other major Bodegas. All of my vineyard Owners are Foreigners. Currently my existing vineyards are sold out but I have suitable land prices at US$10,000 per acre and this includes available electricity and water rights (we drilled a new well in 2012 at a cost of US$70,000 that produces 350,000 lph). Water has become extremely important in Argentina due to the light snowfall on the Andes over the last few years where water availability has been cut by 50%. My development also offers a 24/7 on-site Worker who we built a nice home for in 2008. Having on-sire presence is very important for Foreign Owners even if they are absent for a weekend. We also have a new John Deere tractor with all necessary implements.
Okay, enough about me.
What I want to point out is that Little John 33 should also consider an existing development where water and electricity are available, not raw land where there is no water and no right to drill a well and electricity perhaps many miles distant. In many areas of Argentina getting a “Water Well Permit” is not the slam dunk it used to be.
Another thing I feel is often overlooked is owing or creating a business, for example Brandies or Liqueurs.
Several dynamics exist in Argentina that a Foreigner must give serious thought to and that is “Actual Costs” and “Actual Revenues”.
Before I proceed let me say that I have yet to meet one Foreigner in Argentina, and I have met hundreds, that arrived with ZERO CAPITAL and made a go of it with some form of a business. They either had capital or a strong income or both.
Many Foreigners and in my opinion, quite naïve, believe they can come to Argentina and nail down a lucrative job. Here are a few facts. My vineyard workers who I pay in the white earn AR 3,300 – AR 4,200 monthly plus I pay an additional 23% premium for Government mandated Employee benefits, e.g. health insurance, retirement etc. That equates to in-the-pocket net wages of about AR 2,800 – to AR 3,800 pesos monthly or in US Dollars about US$487 – US$660 monthly (AR 5.75 pesos = 1 US Dollar). I don’t know any Foreigners who want to take a job as a vineyard, or farm worker for that matter and earn US$660 monthly.
I have also talked to Engineers, Architects, Lawyers, etc. from a round the world believe they can come to Argentina and get a job paying thousands of US dollars per month or the peso equivalent each month. Good luck. What I have seen is, for example Sonny or Microsoft sends an Employee from Europe or the US to Argentina and he/she receives a per diem and European or American wages. This is indeed a good deal.
Let’s talk about buying property that could be self-sustaining. When I arrived in Argentina in 2007 I was fortunate to meet several Foreigners, primarily Americans, who had come to the San Rafael region with very limited capital, e.g. US$50,000 or so and purchased a 5 – 10-acre farm, orchard or vineyard or combination that also included a very modest Worker’s house that was converted into an Owner’s residence. If you wanted to raise chickens and maybe a pig or two and vegetables and fruit you could be self-sustaining. And you might generate income with 5 – 10-acres of grapes, plums, peaches etc.
Such affordable entry-level properties are no longer available and due to inflation of 30% or more a year land, orchard, grove and vineyard prices have doubled and tripled.
Little John 33 interest in liqueurs just might be an opening. I met a man in Mendoza; he’s a Foreigner, who is successfully selling liqueurs but I believe he is in partnership with a Bodega (Winery) regarding aging bottling, labeling etc.
I know that the prices paid for pears in the last few years has been dismal and created a situation where it hardly pays to pick them ergo the cost of the fruit could be minimal. However, I don’t have a clue what you ferment and age liqueurs in. A new French oak barrel costs US$1,250 and a used one probably wouldn’t work because of the wine residue in the barrel. Reconditions oak wine barrel can be had for US$150 and up.
There are deals to be made but “capital” is almost always necessary. I have an American friend who had US$35,000 so he lived in San Rafael for a year renting then purchased a 1-acre lot for US$33,000. His wife stayed in the USA many months each year earning extra money and because he speaks five languages he made money doing technical translations. After a few years he and his wife built a modest house (2 bedrooms one bath) for about US$35,000. After another two years, 2012, he sold his house for US$75,000 to a local Argentine and purchased a property with 50% down and a 50% mortgage. The Owner was an American widow who lost her husband in a car accident in San Rafael so she remained in the USA and was anxious to sell even with terms. The property is 30-acres with several hundred very mature Olive trees. It also has a restaurant (it closed) that seats 35 – 50 people and between the various buildings there were many bedrooms and baths and also a stand alone recently built 2 bedroom 2 bath Owner’s residence. The property also has a very large swimming pool. My friend was smart not to reopen the restaurant rather he created a Hostel offering a bed for AR 75 pesos a night (US$13.00) and offers a place to hold anniversaries, weddings, parties etc. He now books many special occasions and on a typical month takes in AR 10,000 – AR 15,000 pesos (US$1,740 – US$2,608) with the business increasing every month as the word spreads. And the revenue are “all cash”. Regarding the mortgage, my friend sold off several small 1-acre lots to raise the money to service and pay off the mortgage.
I know another American living in Mendoza who bought a mid size Chevrolet 4 door for about US$18,000. Yes, cars are very expensive in Argentina. Because Rental cars are also very expensive in Argentina, the same mid size Chevrolet 4 door renting for about $75.00 a day plus very expensive insurance, another US$25.00 a day, he offered a lower per day rate and was soon booked solid and purchasing another Chevy and then another.
My heart goes out to those who hope there is a place in this world where a honest person can find work and make a sufficient living abroad but what many of these people are not being told is for every one who makes it and stays, remember you could make it and not like Argentina) there are three or four who return home.
I realize I have rambled but I feel the readers deserve some straight talk and not to believe every glossy brochure or Ezine you receive.
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frassinetti
From: Argentina
9/26/2013 10:27 EST
By way of Tom P I also want to answer, yes, Tom makes very interesting experience notes to help any future traveller looking to Buy into Argentina, ....... and I would listen to him!
Yes, take your time, travel the country. Check out its Rules and Regulations for each Investment Plan that comes your way and expect only hard work for the Future, No Dream Paradises in some isolated spot in the World, Gods Garden to a New Adam and Eve!
There are many successful plan of investment to follow, .......... already up and running, ........... Tom P lives his, you can find yours!
I recommend "research, research and research" before "location, location location!"
I will drink to everyone's dream this evening with a good bottle of red wine from San Raphael, Mendoza, .......... I am sure the grapes are from "La Vida Buena Vineyards"!
Cheers, and best wishes, Bob
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littlejohn33
9/26/2013 10:34 EST
Thanks to all for your input.
I mentioned that my wife and I run an internet cafe/boarding house with a small restaurant. I dint mention what it makes. Business in the Philippines are VERY competitive. We are lucky and all told net around US$600 a month. Several other internet cafes have gone broke since we started.
We both put in long hours I'm able to because when I don't feel good my wife or her sister can usually take over for a while. At a guess I probably put in 50-60 hours a week (just sitting and making change mostly) and my wife 80 hours. That figures out to a little more than a dollar an hour. And we have several thousand dollars invested in this place. However we could loose the lease in a few years you never know.
Moving somewhere where jobs without an investment actually pay twice that sounds pretty good to me ;)
But mostly this is about giving our children a better future. I don't think they will have a good future here in the Philippines or in the US.
I know it will be tough and your right I might not like the place anyway but I bet I can find somewhere there in South America we will like for a home and Argentina is a good starting point.
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TomP
9/26/2013 10:36 EST
Bob,
We have known each other over the years and I will be at my finca in March/April 2014, for harvest time. Maybe we can manage to meet and I'll bring a fine bottle of Malbec, maybe two.
Tom
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frassinetti
From: Argentina
9/26/2013 10:37 EST
Hello Tom P,.......... fascinating story, your personal quest for Peace here in Mendoza! Well done, .. by the way, I think we mailed each other a couple of years back, could this be so?
What I did not know was about the Rules and Regulations on Water, ...I quote you here "water rights (we drilled a new well in 2012 at a cost of US$70,000 that produces 350,000 lph)." .......... Yes, I have seen this coming world wide, water has become extremely important not only in Argentina, .......... There are places in North East Cordoba ( Camino Real, along The royal Road North of Cordoba and Santiago de Estero ) I am very much interested in, arid land, but I need fresh water to produce Vodka from Pear Cactus, so I am bit lost at the moment, ..... would love to here all of your experience on finding water that you had, either on the Public Forum or by PM,...... as that aspect I still haven't fully studied and it would be of great help! Thanks in advance and Cheers!
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frassinetti
From: Argentina
9/26/2013 10:40 EST
Tom! You have made my Day! March April it is! See you then!
Thank you for the invitation! Cheeers, Bob
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TomP
9/26/2013 10:42 EST
littlejohn33
It wouldn't be hard to beat US$600 a month even in Argentina.
You have evidenced several positive things, a willingness to listen (read) what others have to say who have "boots on the ground" in the country in question and secondly, you and your wife are wiling to work hard, very hard. If I can help in anyway let me know.
Tom
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frassinetti
From: Argentina
9/26/2013 10:44 EST
Sounds like Drilling is Good Money, USD $70,000! ......... maybe that's a "service that some one can provide"! The know how, the rules and regulations, etc......... why be tied down to a "crop" when you can move around drilling for water and earn a good bit of "cash"!?
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TomP
9/26/2013 11:04 EST
All water wells drilled must be done by "Permit" and obtaining one is no longer a "slam dunk". The Drilling Company is "Certified" by the Government.
It may sound lucrative but you need several rigs, a drilling truck, a truck to haul pipes, a full time welder, several laborers and of course someone who nows how and where to drill.
When we sought Estimates they varied by 50%. We did not use a San Rafael Drilling company that was US$25,00 more. We used a company near Mendoza City. The whole ordeal was hair raising and a long story in itself,
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frassinetti
From: Argentina
9/26/2013 11:21 EST
Sounds best tolled with a bottle of good red wine from your vineyard and a long cool afternoon sun near the Andes!
With the date you have provided I can, . I will research the Rules and Regulations, thanks Toml!
Cheers, .......
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TomP
9/26/2013 14:11 EST
Bob,
I am note sure of my dates when I arrive in March and when I leave in April but I will keep you posted and a bottle or two of Malbec at the ready.
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littlejohn33
9/27/2013 10:28 EST
Its to bad the Elio isn't out yet I bet you could make a fortune renting those cars out. Supposed to start production in about a year. Might take another year or two till its available outside the US though. This little car popped into my head today after thinking about your friend renting cars out.
https://www.eliomotors.com/faq/
I never expected to start out making US$1,000 a month but was hoping that if someone works up to maybe some type of overseer that might be possible in a few years.
My first thought was actually to go there and work on some WWOOF farms just to cover expenses and save up some money while exploring. And if lucky maybe find a sponsor.
http://www.wwoofargentina.com/
Then I got to thinking how hard it was to find workers when we had a dairy. Had hoped someone here might have a little inside knowledge of that.
Right now I think we will add a few more computers here at the cafe I think we could make $900 a month if we had enough for the demand. Then my wife can make that much here while I go check out Argentina in maybe 5-6 from now once we save the money for my ticket again.
Were hoping her family can run it and send us part of the income once we make the move.
Thanks again for all your suggestions and ideas. Hopefully I can meet you in person next year.
Littlejohn
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