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Seeking Advice: Santiago relo recon mission Jan/Feb

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xxPat
  12/26/2016 17:18 EST

Seems like a wealth of diverse views here. I read the threads started by @KellyCannon, @MDGringo, and @Emmanuel01 with great interest.

We're planning our "Do we really want to relocate to Santiago?" reconnaissance mission Jan 23-Feb. 12. We seek advice generally on what to check out while we're there. But since this forum seems to have lots of helpful perspectives, I'll just lay out what we seek and why we think we may want to move to Santiago.

I'm a retired American entrepreneur. Moved out of what's left of the USA in 2009 and have zero interest in ever going back except to visit.

I'm a city-dweller at heart. Love Manhattan but hate cold weather. So my first expat adventure was two amazing years in Hong Kong. Loved the food and the city life but eventually realized I was paying for the most expensive real estate on the face of the earth and had no real need to be there other than the Dim Sum.

After HK my ex and I took a trip around the world, "test driving" what living in 28 different cities around the world felt like. Santiago (we spent 3 weeks there in Dec. 2011) was a curious one because on one hand the food was awesome (food is very important to me) and it just seemed like a cool city. But at the time I spoke ZERO Spanish and Chile is very unforgiving of gringos who can't count to 10 in Spanish. The result was a mixed experience - didn't especially love the visit, but walked away with a strong impression that it would have been much, much different had I been fluent.

After the big trip I concluded that continuing the travel lifestyle was the thing to do, but I needed a home base much cheaper than Hong Kong, so I could leave the house empty for months at a time while traveling and not care about the rent.

It's hard to do better than Mexico when it comes to a CHEAP home base. Spent a couple of winters in Puerto Vallarta, but quickly tired of living in a tourist town. And the restaurants sucked royally.

Would have left Mexico, but by then I had a new girlfriend, Russian, whose passport isn't as versatile as mine. We couldn't stomach any more Vallarta, and were surprised how much we've enjoyed Guadalajara, which offers convenient flights to everywhere and everything is dirt cheap. We've lived here just over a year.

But my girl never wants to give up her Russian passport, and Mexico doesn't allow dual citizenship, so naturalization here is not an option.

Reasons we THINK Santiago might be next:

* 4,000+ Restaurants as opposed to <1,000 in Guadalajara. Food is very important to us, and I remember some amazing Ceviches and other fare in Santiago from my 2011 visit.

* Appears to be the only "real city" in Chile. (I consider places like Boston and San Francisco to be too small to be interesting and I call them pseudo-cities, as a point of reference).

* Process of obtaining permanent residency then naturalization seems well within reach for both of us, without losing existing passports.

* Naturalization option after 5 years would give both of us a 2nd passport and broaden our visa-free travel options considerably.

* There are almost no educated, professionals who speak English here in Guadalajara. We have essentially no circle of friends. Our impression is that there is at least a small English-speaking expat community in Santiago.

* There is Uber service there (We are addicted to Uber in Mexico and never use the car we own because Uber is so much more convenient).

* Believe it or not, we speak 'solo un poquito' because we can't find a maestra/masetro de Espanol willing to come to our home to teach us Spanish! This service is readily available in the tourist areas of Mexico but not in cities like GDL. We've met several English teachers from local universities and offered to pay them handsomely to come ot our home, but they're too lazy to want the work. Just one of many frustrating oddities of Mexican culture.

Reasons we're hesitant about Santiago:

* Miserable weather. We're spolied beyond belief. We think Guadalajara is way too cold because it occasionally dips below 10C in the dead of winter here. We would have to leave Chile for Jun-Jul-Aug bare minimum - we just plain don't do cold weather. We can afford to travel, but know from experience this adds considerable complexity. It means we have to live in a condo or gated community with security so we can leave the house empty for months at a time. I've lived this way before and know the downsides...

* Everything appears to cost at least DOUBLE what it would in Mexico, especially real estate. To some extent you get what you pay for, I suppose, but the 7,000sf home we live in here would definitely be unaffordable there.

* Long flight to just about everywhere. I've spent enough time in Argentina to know I never want to go back for the rest of my life. Brazil would be a great trip if it were not rapidly devolving into social chaos. The food sucks in Columbia. So to get out of Chile would mean Europe or USA, both very long flights.

* Despite being one of the best naturalization programs around, the fact remains that 6 yrs to get the passport is still a long time. Would we last that long before we got sick of the miserable winters?

OUR REQUEST OF THIS COMMUNITY:

Based on the above description of our goals and assumptions/beliefs about Santiago, what do you guys think? Are we on the right track, or are we barking up the wrong tree?

Also, is there anything in particular we should be checking out when we're in town for 3 weeks in Jan/Feb?

Are our assumptions wrong? In particular, I assume there is no better place for us in Chile than Santiago, simply because we're city dwellers and cherish a LARGE selection of really great restaurants. I know there are warmer places, but they look tiny. Remember, I'm the kind of person who thinks San Francisco is a sleepy little town masqurading as a real city... So small towns are not for us, even if they're naturally beautiful.

Thanks in advance!
Erik

MDGringo
  12/27/2016 09:36 EST

Erik,

Hola y Bienvenidos!

Spanish skills will definitely help, but we haven't found it to be a major problem in a big city like Santiago. There are many Chileans who speak English, but due to the great waves of diverse European immigration over the years, folks will first speak Spanish to you. There are lots of "white" people who are 3rd or 4th generation in Chile and are obviously fluent, so if you are from the US and of European descent you don't stand out enough to assume you speak English at first. If you are from the US and not of European descent, you might actually have a better shot at people speaking English to you first, because there is not a lot of African or Asian diversity in Chile - but there is a little. Either way, most are fluent enough in English for you to ask politely to switch over to English. We have found most very accommodating, if short, due to the typical busyness of city life.

We do love the European diversity, because it means great Italian, Spanish, German, Portuguese, and even Croatian/Greek cuisine etc... Being on the Pacific also means a great deal of Asian cuisine options. The seafood is amazing and of course super fresh with nearly every point in Chile being 2 hours or less from the sea.

On the climate front, we have very different worldviews :-)

I am attracted to Chile for the very fact that I don't have to deal with warm weather. I HATE every degree it gets over 70F. We are planning on spending winter in US and winter in Chile at least for awhile.

Santiago is a fairly large city even by US standards. Five million in population and the large physical geography and the diversity and good economy put it on par with any city in the US outside NY or LA.

Nothing in the US can compare to the population and physical size together, because NY has more people, but it is physically much smaller, and LA is physically large but has less people. Denver and San Francisco are the two US cities that I think of most when I think of Santiago, because it has a San Fran climate and mountains and sprawl of Denver. But Santiago is nearly 10 times larger than either of those two by population and you feel it being larger. There are many cool little barrios scattered throughout the city with a great, clean, and cheap subway to get around or plentiful cabs.

We particularly like Bella Vista.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrio_Bellavista

And you can go high-end if that's your thing out to Providencia and Las Condes.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providencia,_Chile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Condes

Good Luck!
MDGringo

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xxPat
  12/27/2016 11:24 EST

Gracias, @MDGringo.

Our Spanish isn't quite as bad as I probably made it sound. Guadalajara is less forgiving than the tourist areas in Mexico, and we're fluent enough to direct a taxi, order from a menu, or ask directions in Spanish. What I remember of Santiago, however, is that they speak about 2x to 3x as fast as Mexicans, and we already have to ask the Mexicans to slow it down.

Different world views indeed. Funny you picked 70F - I agree with that number EXACTLY, but I'm on the other side of the line. Ever day of my life spent BELOW 70F is a day I regret!

We stayed in Providencia last time and it seemed perfectly adequate. We're staying there again on this trip, but will check out Las Condes and other neighborhoods.

Thanks for the advice!

Erik

Socium
  12/29/2016 12:08 EST

Too many questions to answer on a post. You certainly need the visit to Santiago.

This city has many attractions available for you even for free, but you really MUST try to learn Spanish to enjoy it. Besides without commanding the language you will never really blend with locals.

Or get in a business partnership with some Chilean so get new aquaintances to see city life from the inside, not as a tourist.

Clearly, as you state, life and assets are more expensive than in most of the other Latinoamerican cities.

I participate a lot on the community and i really enjoy Santiago. I am even writing a book about Santiago future development regarding how to live under the Climate Change. That is a huge goal.

Santiago is sometimes chaotic, but it is on the middle of an extraordinary natural environment. You just need the right local companions. Learn the language to take advantage of the strong points, and to learn how to handle our weakness, as any city has them too,

If you need proffessional advise regarding doing business in Chile, you can contact me through

[email protected]

Kind regards

Teo

xxPat
  12/29/2016 12:19 EST

I've been reading up on the residency application process...

Are they serious about all documents having to be notarized in the country in which they were issued? I was born in USA and my girlfriend in Russia, but we don't live either of those places. Do we really have to make trips to both USA and Russia to get our birth certificates notarized?

Any advice on a cost-effective service to help us with the temporary and then permanent resident visa applications?

Thanks,
Erik

liewald
  12/29/2016 16:40 EST

Hey Erik and Girlfriend,
We have GDL in common, lived there for 3 years and LOVED it, then in Mexico City for another 3 years, left my job and moved to Chile, after DF Santiago seemed a Paradise but definitively not an option. I live near Viña del Mar close enough to enjoy Santiago when I want but cheap enough to get a nice house on a gated community for less than a studio in Santiago.
I have dual citizenship, also my (ex)wife has a different citizenship and our son was born on a third country, having option to 4 different nationalities.
My suggestions:
1 Join Discover Chile on FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/DiscoverChile (over 9000 english speakers and expats)
2 Join Internations.org you will find english speaking expats all over the world (I created the Viña del Mar community 4 years ago, we are 900+)
3 Take Spanish lessons online
4 Take your time to explore Santiago, Viña del Mar and Valparaiso.

Regarding documents:
You can initiate the visa process with only copies of documents, originals will be required upon approval.
Birth certificates are usually not required, unless you will be sponsoring a child as dependant.
But YES all documents issued on another country MUST be either Apostilled or Legalized by the Consulate in the Country of origin.
That includes Degrees, Bank statements, etc depending on your visa requirements.

Feel free to PM if you need more help.
Best
Walt

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xxPat
  12/29/2016 18:15 EST

Walt,

Thanks so much for the info!

A couple of clarifications... Do I assume correctly that the reason you say Santiago was "definitively not an option" was solely affordability of housing there? Are there other downsides I'm not seeing or should be aware of?

Sounds like you much prefer Chile to living in GDL? We mostly "loved it" here too, but there are only a few decent restaurants and we're sick of them. Can't imaging anyplace being CHEAPER than here, but you also get what you pay for to some extent...

That's very interesting that birth certificates MAY not be required. It would save a huge hassle. My birth certificate is in a file folder at my vacation house in Maine. I would have to go there, then do whatever is needed to get it notarized in New Jersey (where I was born), and then blessed by the Chilean consulate in NYC. Sounds like a HUGE hassle.

Sounds like we should plan a side trip to Vina del Mar during our Jan-Feb visit. We can afford to live in Santiago, but frankly it looks like it will cost 2x to 3x what GDL costs. How does the restaurant scene in Vina del Mar compare to GDL?

Thanks,
Erik & Aleksa

xxPat
  12/29/2016 19:30 EST

All,

I just realized the most important question of all, I've yet to ask concisely. Here goes...

Our highest priority on where-to-live is having a selection of really fabulous restaurants. I do NOT mean thousands of little empendada stands. I mean really great places offering a variety of different cuisines.

On the last trip to Santiago, favorites included La Mar, Astrid y Gaston, Barandiaran, Le Flaubert, and Txoko Alaves. We were also impressed with the selection of Basque, Japanese, and other regional cuisines we never expected to find in S. America.

Walt, since you know GDL, our favorite/most frequent restaurants here are Sagrantino, Alcalde, La Matera, and we tolerate the mediocrity of Suehiro because it's the closest the Mexicans can get to real Sushi.

The SECOND big reason for preferring to live "in the big city" is we much prefer walking to driving. We own a car in Mexico but wish we didn't - we never use it and much prefer to use Uber instead.

***BASED ON THE ABOVE PRIORITIES, how does life in Vina del Mar and/or Valparaiso compare with Santiago?***

The reason I ask is that our whole "We would only consider living in Santiago" head trip is almost entirely about the restaurants. We assume that since Vina del Mar and Valparaiso are much smaller cities, they must not have a serious cosmopolitan food scene. That's a big assumption, so I thought I'd float it past this community and see what you think. For all I know the restaurants are better on the coast?

Again, I'm not just talking about fresh local seafood. I have little doubt that it's great on the coast. But what about the broad array of international cuisines that are available in Santiago? Do they have all that stuff in Vina del Mar and/or Valpo?

Thanks,
Erik y Aleksa

xxPat
  12/29/2016 20:11 EST

2 more follow-on questions...

1) Is there Uber service in Vina del Mar and/or Valpo?

2) Do people here think we should plan a side trip to either/both of these places during our 3-week visit to Santiago in Jan/Feb? If so, can this be a day trip or do we need to stay overnight?

Thanks,
Erik y Aleksa

liewald
  12/30/2016 10:49 EST

Hey Erik y Aleksa

2) Similar to Santiago and New York, Valparaiso is a Metropolitan area when you say Santiago you actually refer to the cities of Providencia, Las Condes and perhaps Lo Barnechea, people used to say Santiago centro to differentiate the real Santiago to the bigger metro area.
Valpo Metro is Playa Ancha, Valparaiso (Heritage site and downtown), Viña del Mar (and Reñaca), Concon, Quilpue and Villa Alemana. Some also count Placilla (Check google maps)
So YES definitely you should include one or two nights here.
You can use AirBnB to book an apartment in Viña (highly recommend Marenostrum building complex -with heated pool- to get a glimpse of how could it be to live here)
You can also stay at the Sheraton or choose a Boutique hotel in Valpo Heritage area.
There is fine dining both in Viña and Valpo, some with great ocean views tripadvisor ratings will be of help.

1) Yes there is Uber service here, you should also download Cabify, a local app you can use to book even a helicopter ride if you prefer to avoid traffic in Santiago or come to Valpo with style.
I prefer to use the train/subway, it runs from the very port of Valparaiso to the country/farmers city of Limache.
When I drive to Viña it takes 17 minutes to reach the city and another 20 to arrive at any location, so normally by train is faster, specially during summer.

Last but not least, include a wine tour in Casablanca, several wineries have great cuisine too! (Casablanca is a 30 min drive from Viña)

Another suggestion: talk/write to Suzanne at http://www.chileofftrack.com/ and she will tailor the perfect exploration tour four you.

liewald
  12/30/2016 11:20 EST

Regarding Santiago,
Not an option after Mexico city, I'm a city dweller and a foodie but also the father of a 6-years-old, traffic, pollution and crime are significantly lower here compared to the areas I could afford in Santiago. We live on a gated community (with pool), and my son can go out and visit friends on his own, his friends also come to visit or we take our bikes for a ride either here at the countryside or by the ocean.
Actually after living in Mexico city, my definition of "city" is just time, not distance. Dining out was for sure 1.5 hours of traffic either way, (Santiago is 45 min) now I only go to Santiago for business that will normally involve a nice lunch and/or dinner.
Anyway, different people different taste, we absolutely loved GDL but I also love NY visited it 3 or 4 times per year for 8 years now, once every 2.
I think Viña, (including Reñaca - Concon) and Valpo together have more (good) dining options than GDL (at least at my time there)
PS: When moving here we also considered Panama City, if you can tolerate the rain, there are no cold days there ;)
PS2: although Climate change has affected, Viña was selected as having the best weather in the world year round.
PS3: If you end up deciding moving to the Valparaiso region I will give you free immigration advice (via email/phone/text) through the entire process until you get your visas, bank accounts, department and you are fully settled. (I'm creating a foundation to help investors, entrepreneurs and talent to the region) only requirement will be for you to write about the process to help others.
If you move to Santiago my help will cost USD 75/hour (that will mainly go to the foundation)

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xxPat
  12/30/2016 11:55 EST

We already have an AirBNB paid for in Santiago for the full 3 weeks' visit.

Sounds to me like we should just plan to leave it empty for a weekend and go check out Vina/Valpo.

Do you think one night in an AirBNB in Valpo or Vina is enough, i.e. travel early saturday morning, spend the day Sat and 1 overnight, then tour the area more on Sunday before heading back to Santiago? Or do you think we need two nights there to check it out properly?

I must say that the rents in Providencia/Las Condes/etc. have been a major sticker shock. My last visit was in 2011, and while it was a little more expensive then Mexico, it wasn't that bad really. Prices seem to have almost doubled in some areas since then.

We can still afford to live in Providencia or Las Condes, but it would be in 1/4 to 1/3 of the amount of living space we're used to in Mexico. So there's lots of appeal to the idea of someplace like Vina or Valpo, provided that, as you've said, the restaurant scene there meets our needs at least a little better than GDL, which frankly is pretty lacking.

Thanks again,
Erik

xxPat
  12/30/2016 14:35 EST

UPDATE: Following your advice, we checked out Valpo/Vina. Looks like you could live in the Recreo/Miramar neighborhoods and be within Uber distance to both cities' restaurants. And the weather and beach look much better as well!

We've requested to cancel the last week of our Providencia AirBNB so that we can spend a full week in Valpo/Vina, to check it out. Thanks again for all the detailed advice.

I must say the AirBNB offerings in Vina are pretty disappointing. Plenty of "adequate" properties, but nothing particularly nice. Kinda makes me worry about what the longer-term rental market there is like.

Walt, I sent you a PM as well.

Thanks,
Erik

BrainInAJar
  1/1/2017 12:38 EST

You are right. to days in Vina / Valpo are enough to scout it out. Traffic there during the months of Jan Feb will be enough to send you packing.

KellyCannon
  5/5/2017 07:20 EST

Hi, Erik,
My husband and son scouted out many cities in Chile and they settled on Concepcion. It would be too small for you 1,300,000 people and too cold. My daughter and I went to Chile after they came home and we absolutely loved it. The people are so friendly and helpful (we do not speak Spanish well), no pollution, great restaurants (except Sushi which was comically bad), no snakes, and we never felt unsafe. We are planning on Moving in 24 months. We are taking Skype Spanish lesson from friends we met in Conce.

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