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Why some are coming, while others are going

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meincolombia
  8/11/2016 10:17 EST

I´m planning to return to the US in the near future, not because i don´t like Colombia, but because the opportunity for business growth is much better in the US.
I have found that trying to start a business in Colombia is just plain dicey because of the governmental restraints and because of the unreliable work force.
The double taxation of World Income is also a BIG problem for me.
But other retirees are looking into moving to Colombia.
So, what are the pros and cons of Colombia? Particularly as compared to other countries nearby such as Ecuador and Peru.
Ecuador has recently been cited as being more expensive than Colombia, but I recall only a year or so back, when the Colombian peso was much stronger, that Ecuador seemed like a bargain. And, Ecuador does not have the double taxation on world income.
Also, the retirement benefits in Ecuador are significant.

BlueSeas
  8/11/2016 11:13 EST

We are coming because:

1) Opportunity to expand our horizons beyond the USA.

2) Had positive interactions with most all the Colombians we've met.

3) An opportunity to tackle Spanish, and hopefully win.

4) Climate. There are few places in the world with the year round climate of Medellin, none I know of with similar size.

5) Cost. It's very reasonable compared to anything in the same class in the Americas.

6) We like good food. Medellin has that at 1/2 back home prices. Probably 1/4 if you learn to like the local dishes, something we are still working on.

7) 4 airlines with direct flights from Florida, making it only 3.5 hours away.

8) We didn't want "the country", but an urban environment. Walkable with good healthcare if needed.

We didn't visit Equador. But Cuenca and Quito looked a little chilly. Closer to Bogata which we ruled out as too cool.

Mexico and Costa Rica have some possibilities. But in Mexico I've always felt like I'm an amigo only for as long as I'm spending money. But in fairness, only been to more touristy spots. But for an example., we docked in a resort off Puerto Morales and could not take the bus to town, reserved for employees. Gringos had to take an expensive taxi, or walk. Never seen a gringo tax in Colombia. In regards to Costa Rica, we probably didn't give them a good chance. But to find the climate, it's San Jose or a small town. San Jose just didn't sound that great.

Never planned for sure to stay year round, which was LUCKY since we didn't figure out the tax issues until after we bought in. Really only potential tax issues since I've not been able to calculate an accurate cost of exceeding 6 months yet, Some projections I have depending on unverified assumptions is it might not be a big deal.

We are early boomer semi-retirees. We have some work from Internet income and US rental properties, both of which can be mostly be handled anywhere with a US phone number and a good internet connection.

But if you are younger and want to start a business, or especially be an employee, the US is probably easier and more lucrative. My wife and I have pretty much been employees until recently, so not the best source for starting a business. My perception is Colombia has as many or more opportunities, but more red tape and less access to capital. Hence easier in the US,

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LaPiranha
  8/11/2016 12:12 EST

Why some are coming whilst others are going


I think there is a deeper reason why a lot of people come to Colombia which hasn't been fully understood. Its not just single guys looking for chicas, or those expatriating to work in a warmer country at a lower cost of living, but may have no ties here,

Like myself, a lot of guys are, or have been, married to a beautiful Colombiana, and have found that Colombians have values which are hard to find back home in our native countries.

Over the course of many years, we visited Colombia to spend time with her family, allow the kids to know their Colombian side of their family, and I fell in love with the country, the culture, the people, climate, foods which you've never heard of before, and the easy going nature of Colombian life. It was always a place where I dreamed that I would like to retire to, when I had the opportunity.

That opportunity came, and I took it with both hands.

Ok, the taxation issues took a little time to resolve, putting property in the names of the kids and family members, and there are other drawbacks, like the fluctuating exchange rates can go down aswell as up, and since the UK voted to leave the EU, the pound buys a lot less pesos than it used to. Schooling and health costs money, whereas in England, its free,

But for me, the advantages of living here totally outweigh the disadvantages, and I have absolutely no regrets, and wouldn't dream of returning to the UK. I no longer regard myself as an ex-pat, but more like a Colombian, for this is where I will live for ever, even if the fiscal policies get tighter, and others may decide to flee to another destination.

I strongly suspect that there are a great number like myself, maybe as they get older, their Colombian wife wants to live closer to her aging family, and so Ecuador, Panama or Mexico isn't an option. If we consider these people and families, then it seems there might actually be a lower percentage who choose this country as a temporary period in their lives, and who will come and go purely for the financial advantages, and who will jump ship to a better opportunity as economic climates change. This year Colombia, next year Thailand, or Cambodia, or wherever.

No, I believe there are many who will live here regardless, and many will continue to come here for similar reasons to myself.

jonrod888
  8/11/2016 12:20 EST

I'm planning to return to US. Been here too long and it's getting old. The major thing for Colombia is "cheap" . But the food is mediocre at best, and the quality of goods is 3rd rate Chinese. If you are not working, there's not much to do in Medellin. How many times do you want to walk the crowded, hot streets in Central to see some statues or ride the cable car to Parque Arvi? Most things can be done in a week and there's not much reason to do them a second time. The afternoons are getting hot ... might be due to climate change. Evenings are fun with friends over drinks and food but there's always a little barrier that isn't crossed ... they're Colombian while you are a Gringo. They are nice to your face but if you are gone tomorrow it is like you were never here ... I've seen it with others. Friends in the US are friends for life. I bike in the mornings here but that gets old also. So back to the US to play golf, go fishing, hang with friends, eat good food, lay out at the beach, boating, biking. Colombia's disorganization and corrupt government has it's hands full in the coming years with oil price/budgets, taxes, exchange rate, "price" of peace accord, lack of foreign investment, weak borrowing (recent credit downgrades), collapsing infrastructure and a weakening economy with moderate/high inflation.

jonrod888
  8/11/2016 12:30 EST

So La Piranha, you came to Colombia for your wife ... but you said you got separated in another thread. You actually said you gave her £750,000 sterling. You are pretty sincere in your writing in this tread ... were you lieing before? Or are you that kind hearted and give everything away with no feelings.

briloop
  8/11/2016 13:18 EST

My wife and I lived in Medellin from June 2014 until February 2015. Medellin has beautiful views, friendly people, and lovely weather most of the time. I would never live there permanently, let alone buy property there.

Main reasons why we left:

1. IMO, the properties for sale in the area are over-priced.

2. It's safe to live there, provided you live in a safe area and take a lot of precautions. There is a lot of crime in Medellin, ranging from petty theft to extortion to everything in-between.

3. Weather is nice most of the time. Medellin has two rainy seasons. During a rainy season, it rains a lot and almost every day. Thunderstorms are more frequent and more severe than what I am accustomed to in the U.S.

4. Streets can be clogged with traffic. Buses are cheap, but the seats seemed to be designed for people with average height of 5' tall and slim build. The majority of the taxis are sub-compact cars.

5. The city lacks a soul, and it can be boring to live there after a while, after you've seen and done all the things there are to see and do.

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novato1953
  8/11/2016 13:32 EST

Go where you like and if you get itchy feet, go again. No harm in it I can see. But over the years the foreigners I've seen return most often are those who neither know the local language nor make much effort learning it. It's hard to stay in touch with any of the humans all around you when you live isolated in a language bubble that is, let's face it, of your own devising. It must be like living in a silent movie with a noisy orchestra section.

guestuser
  8/11/2016 13:39 EST

I think one reason that people might think twice about moving to Colombia is looking at this forum, hoping for some information, and instead finding that it's increasingly full of trolls behaving like school children. I got a dose of the trolls a couple of weeks ago and it isn't pleasant.

Personally I've got to the point where it doesn't seem worth sharing an opinion or information as someone will just use it as ammunition to troll.

For example I've just paid for a Colombian tax opinion on an income flow that I have and how it would be treated in Colombia. The opinion was extremely favorable, but what was more interesting is that it had applicability beyond the income flow I was discussing but would also impact other offshore assets like 401k and IRAs. It also contained some wording that clearly explained an element of the Colombian tax system that I'd never understood.

Of course if I share that opinion

1. I'll be told that I'm an idiot to pay taxes and that any money you pay to the country just 'goes on bribes'
2. I'll be reminded that only a couple of weeks ago I was told that I was clearly senile and had achieved nothing in life and wouldn't have either a) an income stream or b) the money to pay for tax advice
3. That the ruling is wrong, as all attorneys are crooks and will just take your money to say whatever you want
4. You're an idiot to get advice, or way too conservative because there's no way that the DIAN will ever know about the money


Quite a few of us do go and get paid advice, or do a lot of personal research and in the spirit of community try to share the information on here. People might not like the advice, they may disagree with it or they may choose to ignore it but this is a forum for the exchange of information not an opportunity for scatalogical comments.

I think we're at the point the point where we collectively need to push back on the trolls.

8901
  8/11/2016 14:23 EST

@ jonrod888 I love bike riding but never considered it in Medellin for safety reasons.

Where do you bike and is it in or out of traffic and how long of a distance.

LaPiranha
  8/11/2016 15:13 EST

Jonrod. I fail to follow your apparent lack of understanding my personal affairs and your desire to know all the intimate details. So I will try to explain a little.

I posted above .....
"Like myself, a lot of guys are, or have been, married to a beautiful Colombiana, and have found that Colombians have values which are hard to find back home in our native countries."

This is completely true. I was married to a Colombiana, and although we separated a while back, we still share 2 gorgeous children. So we talk to each other and discuss things relating to the children as any other parents do. (Or sometimes even better than some other parents do). I also spend a lot of quality time with my children, and take them on holidays, etc, because I am their parent too. Are you suggesting I shouldn't communicate with my kids, or maybe live near them, because their mother and I are not together any more?

Then I also said.....
"I fell in love with the country, the culture, the people, blah, blah, blah ..... I dreamed that I would like to retire to, when I had the opportunity."

Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong or incomprehensible about that.

I also said ....
"I strongly suspect that there are a great number like myself, maybe as they get older, their Colombian wife wants to live closer to her aging family, and so Ecuador, Panama or Mexico isn't an option."

Again, I think that's pretty clear, and also true, My own ex-wife did say that she would like to be closer to her family as they get older, and preferably whilst they still had many quality years to spend together. I think that's pretty normal for any woman to want to be closer to her parents. I hope that my own children would still want to be close to me as I grow older too. Maybe you have never experienced a close family, and wouldn't understand?

But I must make one point very clear, .... I did not move here for my wife, as you seem to suggest, I moved here for me. Her desire to be closer to her parents suited my own desires to live here, and I worked with her to organise everything, so the transition for us both and our children was smooth and successful. It has indeed been very successful.

As for my financial situation, and our mutually agreeable separation of our finances, it has absolutely nothing to do with us moving, and I fail to see how the two issues contradict each other as you suggest. It was more in consideration of the fact that she will have more financial responsibility, bringing up our kids as a single person, and it was designed with the children in mind. Are you suggesting that I should cut them off without a penny, or leave them destitute perhaps? Maybe your mind thinks only of 'self' and 'greed', in which case you probably wouldn't understand why or how someone could reach such an agreement. Well, sorry, but I'm not going to publish our agreement to anyone, especially to someone who wouldn't possibly understand it if he saw it. But I can assure you I did not give everything away, and I was entirely happy with the agreement. But again, you wouldn't understand that either.

Finally, whilst I would always be happy to enlighten folk on matters that they do not understand, I do not intend to divulge any more of my personal affairs, so if you think something doesn't sound right, then tough! Deal with your own shortsightedness.

Have a great day.

jonrod888
  8/11/2016 15:19 EST

@8901, Sundays on the closed Regional ... you can go from Aguacatala to Bello (9 miles return 9 miles). On weekdays I ride mostly bike paths Los Colored, Estadio, 65, 33, Belen, Unicentro, UPB, 70, Laureles. Mostly flat and I do about 10 miles only. Some sections you have to go on sidewalks or in the street. Not too dangerous except at intersections or pedestrians.

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livinginmedellin
  8/11/2016 15:25 EST

In response to the original poster @meincolombia

There isn’t double taxation in Colombia. You can subtract income taxes paid in another country from income taxes due in Colombia. My Colombian accountant told me that most of her expat customers pay little to no income taxes in Colombia. I have paid only a very small amount of income taxes in Colombia in my 6+ years here. While Colombia has a wealth tax it only applies if you have a higher net worth.

I’ve been to both Ecuador and Peru and much prefer Colombia. To me the pros of living in Colombia outweigh the cons.

There are a number of retired expats living in countries like Panama, Costa Rica and Ecuador that are moving to Medellín or considering it. Why - cost of living, climate, and looking for a change are common reasons I have heard.

livinginmedellin
  8/11/2016 15:26 EST

In response to the original poster @meincolombia

There isn’t double taxation in Colombia. You can subtract income taxes paid in another country from income taxes due in Colombia. My Colombian accountant told me that most of her expat customers pay little to no income taxes in Colombia. I have paid only a very small amount of income taxes in Colombia in my 6+ years here. While Colombia has a wealth tax it only applies if you have a higher net worth.

I’ve been to both Ecuador and Peru and much prefer Colombia. To me the pros of living in Colombia outweigh the cons.

There are a number of retired expats living in countries like Panama, Costa Rica and Ecuador that are moving to Medellín or considering it. Why - cost of living, climate, and looking for a change are common reasons I have heard.

jonrod888
  8/11/2016 15:52 EST

LaPiranha, I didn't ask for detail and don't care about your finances nor arrangements. I am married to a Colombiana. She didn't like the US so she and her daughter returned to Colombia. After some arrangements, I decided to take early retirement and move to Colombia to live with my wife and also I too wanted retirement here even prior to knowing her. But living with her in her hometown near family and friends became a joke. She spent more time with her family and friends than she did at home. Finally, I kicked her out ... within 1 year she spent all the money that I gave her and asked to move back in. She again lives with me for support, which is going to end soon again. I did all this for a stepdaughter but it will end. Point is you write your story so nonchalantly with no feelings and total support for Colombianas, giving away a sizeable amount of money. I will advise to be extremely careful when dating and getting serious with any Colombiana. Trust Colombians ... never. And yes I have grown children in the US who have always wanted me to live with them.

meincolombia
  8/11/2016 16:18 EST

Using the term double taxation was sort of tongue in cheek. I consider it to be just that, even though in their lingo it is a ¨wealth¨ tax, and yes, I´m leaving because of it.
Also because it has become onerous to manage a communications company from so far away. My hope is to build it up and sell it and then return to live in Latin America. I haven´t ruled out Ecuador yet, there are a range of reasons to go there. My Colombian wife lived there for two years and absolutely loved it. She felt more secure in Ecuador than in Colombia. The high mountains are cold, even Cuenca is a bit chilly for me, but some of the lower elevation small cities are great, and the seacoast has some lovely towns. It just seems to me Ecuador has a more stable government, their infrastructure of roads and public transit are very much better than Colombia, and once you get away from the expat concentrations in Cuenca and Quito the Ecuadoreans are very friendly, same as Colombians. As a retiree I would be able to bring my household goods and my car, which is a big plus for me. I´m still debating, but haven´t ruled out Ecuador yet.

LaPiranha
  8/11/2016 16:49 EST

Dliss. Very well put. Excellent stuff, which I can relate to.

dliss62
  8/11/2016 16:57 EST

@meincolombia are you kidding?! I have traveled the entire country of Ecuador and appears that you I visited two different planets!

Ecuadorian government more stable? RAFAEL CORREA is an asshole! and a junior socialist dictator under the wing of (deceased) Hugo Chavez and aligned with Evo Morales and the Cuban Castro brothers. BTW, Colombia is the oldest democracy in South America.

I did find Ecuador cheaper than Colombia, but less access to cultural activities and first world amenities.

The Ecuadorian infrastructure is a nightmare once outside the major cities. . For the single guys, Ecuadorian women are nowhere near as attractive as the Colombinanas.

meincolombia
  8/11/2016 17:46 EST

yep, definitely two different planets........as far as politics, you said, ¨is an asshole! and a junior socialist dictator........¨
that´s the sort of thing a lot of people say about US President Obama, too. Actually, most people think he is founder of ISIS and a muslim and not a US citizen.
I don´t put too much stock in what other people say about politicians. For example half the US is supporting The Donald Drumpf because he is the only one who can save our country......while the other half of the population is calling him the biggest single threat to our country, ever.

As I am continuing my investigation, on numbeo.com they say Ecuador prices range from 22% to 63% higher than Colombia. Just two years ago those positions were reversed.
When I came to Colombia the peso was 2500/1. Then it dropped to 1700/1. Now it is at 2900/1 and rising. When it levels out at about 2,000 the cost of living in Ecuador will be cheaper than Colombia.

dliss62
  8/11/2016 18:09 EST

All due respect, most people do not think that Obama is the founder of ISIS and a Muslim.

See the new today? Your boy is appears to be crashing and burning. Not that the alternative is any better and as I stated in my previous post, they are both one the reasons I want to go back to Colombia.

meincolombia
  8/11/2016 18:16 EST

and, with all due respect, I don´t think that most people think Correa is an asshole and dictator.
I am an Obama supporter and I shudder when I think that Trump is even this close to the white house. In fact, I wish Obama would sue Trump for billions of dollars, since lawsuits are the only things Trump seems to understand.
I personally hope Trump escalates his battle with reality and accelerates his descent into insanity. AT some point the GOP is going to have to rein him in or stop supporting him altogether.
I like a whole bunch of other people a lot more than I like Hillary, but I will darn sure vote for her rather than Drumpf.

dliss62
  8/11/2016 18:45 EST

With double due respect, I don't think you know what Correa is really about?

Correa has established an anti-American platform and has been undermining U.S. interests for years.

In Colombia they had a saying..."A Chavez hay que darle Correa sin piedad! ( meaning Piedad Cordoba, senator that supports Chavez, Correa and FARC).

Here is a small excerpt of the endless facts you find on the net about Correa...

"Yet unlike his dictator pals known for directly confronting Washington, Correa has found more subtle ways to target our economic, diplomatic, military and political power since his election in 2006.

Simultaneously, he’s courted American adversaries like Iran and Russia while embracing economic rival China with open arms.

As a member of the anti-U.S. ALBA bloc along with Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Bolivia and a handful of Caribbean island nations, it’s not a surprise that Ecuador is trying to sap U.S. power in any and every way possible.

What’s been surprising is Correa’s stealthy, yet effective anti-U.S. techniques.

First, Ecuador slowly cut military ties. In 2009, Correa closed a U.S. Air Force forward operating location in the seaside town of Manta — despite its decade-long record of counter-narcotics operations responsible for 60% of drug seizures in the Eastern Pacific. Correa later quietly expelled all Defense Department personnel from the U.S. Embassy in Quito. Seems those pesky American military types were hindering Ecuador’s drug trafficking, which not surprisingly has been on the rise.

Second, Correa has worked to undermine U.S. political legitimacy. In a 2013 interview with Russia TV, Correa compared “American Exceptionalism” to “Nazi’s rhetoric before and during World War II.” Even though he received his PhD in Economics from the University of Illinois, a most ungrateful Correa routinely laments “U.S. imperialism.”

Third, Correa has used his judiciary to attack corporate America. He’s been pursuing Chevron for billions of dollars for a case it inherited from Texaco’s drilling in Ecuador’s Amazon basin from 1972 until the early 1990s. Though the litigation has bounced between New York and local Lago Agrio courts for two decades, in 2011 an Ecuadorian judge ruled against Chevron to the tune of $9.5 billion.
The company isn’t paying, citing a 1998 settlement with Ecuador’s previous government. This is all despite a New York court citing rampant corruption in Ecuador’s legal proceedings, and shady public relations practices which reportedly involved hiring “extras” for public protests."

@meincolombia, this is the guy you like? If you ever think about buying property in Ecuador, I would consult expats on this forum who made that mistake in Venezuela.

meincolombia
  8/11/2016 19:03 EST

Would you like for me to cut and paste similar ¨news¨ articles about Obama?
For every one negative article you can find at least one positive article.
This is the way journalism is today, sensational claims that are both true and false but only by a hairs breadth of difference, depending on whether the right or the left is spinning the tale. Fox News comes to mind. They seem to truly believe that Obama is the devil incarnate and their boy Trump is ¨misunderstood¨ by the rest of the press world.

LaPiranha
  8/11/2016 19:08 EST

Hmmmm, Can't speak for Ecuador, but on the subject of the GOP reining in Trump, I reckon he'll go the same way as JFK.

After the Cuban missile crisis, and Khrushchev losing so much face by capitulating to Kennedy, there seemed like only one solution. Kennedy, who brought the world to the brink of total annihilation simply had to go, as part of an agreed price between the 2 powers for Russia's climb down. So within a year, some crazy loner was caught with a "smoking gun", and then himself bumped off by an "angry young patriot" to stop him talking.

Unfortunately his brother could never be allowed to reside in the hot seat, lest he find out what really happened, so another stooge was necessary to deal with Bobby.

Ah, I remember it well. And I do think that's the way they deal with problem presidents nowadays. Anyone taking bets on a repeat performance?

Ok, maybe only a runaway imagination, but you can blame it on his affairs with Marilyn, the Mafia, and whatever else, but they are only decoys.

Give it about a year?

meincolombia
  8/11/2016 19:23 EST

looks like i´ve derailed my own thread...sorry about that.
I promise to stay on topic now.
Along with Ecuador I am also seriously considering Portugal, Spain, Italy and Southern France. And, at odd moments, I remember the good times I had in Vancouver, British Colombia. Might be worth a return visit.

dliss62
  8/11/2016 19:35 EST

@meincolombia, I'm sorry to disagree with you again, but my views are based on real experience. I worked at the U.S. Embassy in Bogota for many years and had privileged access to Ecuador U.S. relations. Rafael Correa is no friend of the U.S. and has made this clear. I would love to see any evidence to the contrary.

dliss62
  8/11/2016 19:37 EST

Also, the topic was Correa not Obama. You introduced Obama to counter my derogatory comment on Correa, which I still stand by and would love to be proven wrong.

meincolombia
  8/12/2016 07:53 EST

my references to Obama and journalism were to point out the wide disparity between right and left spins on a topic-person-position-situation.
When I was in journalism school the emphasis was on fact checking and honest appraisal of the story and an obligation to write things that were more true than not true.
Nowadays, the emphasis is to say whatever it takes to titillate the reader and provoke a reaction, whether the facts are checked or not.
Ergo, we have an orange haired buffoon declaring that a US President is the founder of an international terrorist organization, ignoring the fact that the US President in question is daily dropping bombs on said terrorist organization. Yet, at this very moment, because he said it, and said it and said it, millions of Trump´s followers are convinced Obama and Hillary are the co-founders of ISIS.
The subject was comparing Colombia to Ecuador, then you made it about Correa.
Its clear you hate the guy, the same way many Americans hate Obama, and the same way many other Americans hate Trump. Yet, at the same time millions of Americans love Obama and millions of Americans love Trump.
At the same time you personally hate Correa millions of Ecuadoreans love him. They keep electing him time after time for the past decade.
So, in my opinion, Ecuador is still a good place to live IF YOU LIKE IT.
Just read this article and see for yourself,

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/american-retirees-flock-ecuador-fight-gringo-stereotype-n61966

there are thousands of Americans living happily in Ecuador whether you like it or not, and Correa is not preying on them, INSTEAD he and his government policies are welcoming them, unlike Colombia.
Ecuador is a stable nation, unlike Colombia. In Colombia there is a 54 year civil war and a 30 year massive drug war. There are millions of displaced and millions of disappeared. Well over half the population lives in poverty, and half of that number lives in extreme poverty. Corruption after corruption is the every day way of life.
So, whether you like it or not, Ecuador is a country worth considering for an American to retire in. And, so is Colombia.
I think my time in South America would have been vastly different, and probably improved in many ways, if I had followed my wife´s advice and settled in Ecuador. That is my opinion, not based on facts of any kind, just my own personal preferences.

guestuser
  8/12/2016 10:36 EST

From my own perspective my wife is a Colombian and has parents who are now at the age that they need some help. That was certainly a critical factor.

However I'd worked on projects in Colombia and knew Medellin and Bogota well. Therefore I had a reasonable idea that I'd be more than happy to live here.

I was also at the age where keeping regular employment was getting more difficult. US companies always seem to sort their redundancies based on age. I didn't have a specific problem but looking around at my peers and how many of them were out of work there was a clear trend. Moving to Colombia allowed me to retire several years earlier than I would have been able to in the US.

We did consider living in the US but rejected it. That surprises people (both friends and family) that we haven't gone to the US. Certainly I know that some family members consider that it's only time before I give up and go back but that's rather a view of Colombians about living in the US. If you get the opportunity you should do it. However their vision of living in the US is more around having a town house in Manhattan rather than a scruffy apartment in Queens.

Looking at moving to Colombia for retirees I think there are many positives. It isn't perfect but then I'd argue nowhere is. Countries that have programs to attract to ex-pat retirees probably have increased property costs (Costa Rica Pacific coast for example).

The main complaint for ex pats in Colombia seems to be taxes (the tax word generally appearing in sentences with three exclamation marks at the end). There are clearly countries with better tax situations for ex pats, and perhaps clearer tax codes. On the other hand the cost of living in Colombia is extremely cheap. Medical costs are also extremely cheap (and reasonably good). When people return to the US deciding that Colombian taxes are too high do they then complain about the cost of medical coverage in the US? There are trade offs.

People focus on the tax situation. My tax situation (after putting a pretty good amount of work into it) is a lot better than it was in the US. As others have pointed out the Real Estate taxes in the US are getting out of hand, plus state tax, plus in some cases city tax.

Some feel that property prices in Colombia are too high, at least for those properties that foreigners might be interested in. By local standards that may be true but $250k in Medellin will buy you a very nice apartment in a really good area like Poblado. Spend a little more and you'll be buying somewhere pretty spectacular. I've had enough friends and family come over and see our apartment and it certainly wasn't what they were expecting to find in a 'third world country' and better than their own homes back in Europe that are worth a multiple of the apartment here.

Some people will argue that there's 'not much to do' and there may be some truth in that. One thing that always surprises me is that there aren't more ex-pat groups at least in Medellin. Equally the culture isn't on a level with the US or Europe.

However I can think of plenty of couples who'd be happy coming somewhere to where they could spend their time gardening. Colombia's a pretty good location for buying land near a city and as we all know the problem in Colombia isn't getting things to grow - it's stopping them.

Colombia I don't think is a great place to come to retire and work. There have been plenty of postings about the difficulties in setting up a business and the reality is Colombia isn't a rich country. Making money running a business isn't impossible but it is hard work. On the other hand if you want to retire somewhere where you can live well and not have to work Colombia would be a pretty good choice.

Because of the low cost of living there's a multiplier on your $ income in terms of how you can live in comparison with say the US.

If you have $40k in funds a year in Colombia you can probably live a comparative life style to spending $80k in the US. Imagine the lifestyle you'd have in Colombia if you have $100k a year to spend? Where it doesn't work quite as well is when you're trying to live here on $20-25k a year. You'll have a better life style than on the same income in the US but you will have to accept some trade offs in terms of where you live and what you can do. Having said that there are those here who do well on low amounts of spending, but it needs experience and skill to make it work, plus an acceptance of 'living like a local' that might not suit all retirees.

For a retiree Colombia has other advantages. It's a cheap home base. So from our point of view we can live in Colombia well and cheaply and yet have the ability to travel extensively.

Drawbacks? Well there certainly isn't the choice of things to buy that there is in say the US. At first that seems like a problem until you realize that you don't really need all of those things. Technology also helps. I get an English newspaper delivered every morning to my Kindle, I can get books the same way, I can watch news from the UK over my Apple TV. I get to see all of my UK football team's games at a fraction of the price my friends in the UK pay. I can talk with friends and family over FaceTime - gone are the days of having to watch the amount of time a call was taking.

Colombia, like any potential ex-pat destination has its drawbacks. Some on here paint it in a very bad light in terms of security, corruption and general behavior. In particular Colombian women tend to be represented very poorly here. People are entitled to their view, but this country has many positives, and many good people. Anybody considering moving here needs to do some considerable homework before making the move and should also expect an adjustment period of 2-3 years where they learn how things work and how to optimize their lives down here. But that's no different to any other retirement destination.

SkyMan
  8/12/2016 11:22 EST

Having lived in Cuenca, Ecuador for over a year now...I can give you some insight as to living in Ecuador.
In Ecuador you basically have two(2)areas in which to live: coast or mtns. Weather in Cuenca is
c-o-l-d this time of year...nightime lows of 45-52 and daytime highs in the lower 60's and it rains a lot here in Cuenca. Real estate prices have bee push up by the expats here. The real estate market is in bad shape here now, but prices have not fallen on condos, or homes very much. the rental condos that most of us expats rent are owned by well-to-do Ecuadorians and are paid for, so no rush to dump them. Along the coast=earthquakes, with
condo prices and rentals already
priced rather expensive. the Ecuadorian people are nice, kinda shy & it is safe here in Cuenca. So why am I moving to Medellin ? The weather...I don't like cold & rainy(as in Cuenca). Cuenca has a small number of good cafes and restaurants, but nowhere near the size & scope of Medellin. Are condo rental prices higher in Medellin...Yes, but in my mind...the weather justifies the increase in rental cost. I recently spent 10 days in Medellin, viewing condos and was very pleased with the city's infrastructure, dining & shopping...and the people too ! those are my thoughts concerning Cuenca, Ecuador.

livinginmedellin
  8/12/2016 11:55 EST

In reply to @meincolombia

Ecuador “a stable nation”? That’s a laugh. Look at the history - Ecuador had 86 governments and 17 constitutions in its first 159 years of independence. Only twenty of those governments resulted from popular elections, and many of the elections were fraudulent. See: http://countrystudies.us/ecuador/56.htm from the Library of Congress.

Colombia is actually Latin America’s oldest and most stable democracy. Colombia has a strong democratic history. Since it won independence from Spain in 1819 Colombia has only experienced two military interventions interrupting long periods of stable democracy. See: http://www.e-ir.info/2010/04/15/an-analysis-of-colombia%E2%80%99s-democracy/

Some expats living in Cuenca, Ecuador are moving to Medellín. I have met several. Why? Better climate, much easier access to the US, lower cost of living (look in Numbeo and Expatistan), more things to do, and good healthcare (Medellín has 8 of the top 43 hospitals in Latin America) – these are some of the reasons expats that moved from Cuenca to Medellín have mentioned to me.

I have been to Cuenca and Quito Ecuador and I was not really impressed after living in Medellín. I much prefer Medellín and Colombia.

But at the end of the day — there’s no “best place to live”. There’s only the best place for you to live. I much prefer Medellín and Colombia but it has trade offs like any other place.

testolas
  8/12/2016 11:57 EST

Well said thank you for you input. At the moment I live in the USA my wife is colombian and has her green card. We travel to Colombia about 3 months out of the year and because of my health we spend most of my time in the USA but wish I was in better health we would stay much longer in Colombia. We do have a home in Manizales and find it nice to have roots there too.

testolas
  8/12/2016 11:57 EST

Well said thank you for you input. At the moment I live in the USA my wife is colombian and has her green card. We travel to Colombia about 3 months out of the year and because of my health we spend most of my time in the USA but wish I was in better health we would stay much longer in Colombia. We do have a home in Manizales and find it nice to have roots there too.

bigjailerman
  8/12/2016 12:01 EST

Agreed Medellin... I'm onboard with that good post!

meincolombia
  8/12/2016 12:06 EST

Thanks PL, I agree with your assessment of Colombia, and thanks Skyman. I agree with your assessment of Cuenca, Ecuador.
I wonder, have you spent time in Loja, south of Cuenca in the Cuxibamba Valley? That is where I want to visit next.

8901
  8/12/2016 19:49 EST

The benefit I look forward to in retirement the most is the ability to move on when I choose.

If a country or even a city has lost its charm for you then pick up and go.

I for one intend on splitting my time between 3 countries and the rotation of them will change in step with me changing and my preferences.

When you are young you anchor yourself to one place because of a job or for a family. Being single I have no plans of sitting out in front of the garage in Florida every day waiting for death to come.

briloop
  8/12/2016 20:47 EST

Fecherklyn,

I couldn't have said what you said any better. There is a website called Medellín Living that I used to keep up with and post about my eight months in Medellin. I gave up because every time that I would post negative things about Medellín, two or more individuals would chime in their counter opinions as if they were doing some kind of damage control on behalf of people who have an invested interest in making sure that potential customers don't shy away from Medellín.

briloop
  8/12/2016 20:47 EST

Fecherklyn,

I couldn't have said what you said any better. There is a website called Medellín Living that I used to keep up with and post about my eight months in Medellin. I gave up because every time that I would post negative things about Medellín, two or more individuals would chime in their counter opinions as if they were doing some kind of damage control on behalf of people who have an invested interest in making sure that potential customers don't shy away from Medellín.

bigjailerman
  8/12/2016 20:59 EST

Good posts, I agree...

Too many posts like this get moderated out and no one would ever know

8901
  8/12/2016 21:04 EST

@ fecherlyn & briloop

I agree. There are guys trapped there because they fell in love at first sight and and invested everything so instead of saying they f..ked Up and begin an exit strategy they choose to go into denial and lash out at anybody that does not do the same.

Colombia is a great country provided that you follow the golden rule.

KEEP YOUR MONEY OUT OF COLOMBIA AND YOUR WOMAN IN COLOMBIA

The exception being if you have a time proven partner of many years that you really trust.

bigjailerman
  8/12/2016 21:09 EST

Exactly true 8901.
I was responding to a Pro and Con thread last week..That's was exactly in my mind..

olivio
  8/13/2016 04:20 EST

I agree fully with all those who have posted message drwing attention to some of the negative, and potentially highly risky, aspects of living in Colombia, and in Medellin in particular. I personally had to leave Medellin because of death threats just hours before signing a contract for my apartment in Laureles. Of course, everyone is entitled to one's views and not all experiences are bad. But I too find disconcerting the agressive reactions of those who do not share posted views. This is a forum where people are free to exchange their experiences - provided they do so on a respectful manner and do not get personal. I believe that all those who exchanges personal attacks and insults rather than accepting other people's experiences for what they are, should not be allowed to continue in this forum. The risk being that other contributors would sign out. I hope both negative and positive experiences continue to be posted. So guys, be less childish and a bit more intelligent and respectulf.

8901
  8/13/2016 07:57 EST

@ Olivio childish ... is the perfect word to describe this type of behavior It reminds me of on the old TV shows when you would see a mal adjusted child and when confronted with something he did not like he would put his hands over his ears and repeat
" I don't want to hear this, I don't want to hear this "

On another note how were these death threats delivered to you ? In person, via phone, letter ?

olivio
  8/13/2016 08:14 EST

@ 8901 - I am a photographer and went to Medellin alone to confirm whether I really wanted to live there. In fact, I always quite enjoyed the city. I needed an assistant and body guard and I was introduced by some friends to a young man who was described as very serious and honest. He also had friends and relative in the police. This person spent more than two months in close contact with me and obviously got to know details of my financial arrangements for purchasing an apartment. When I actually discovered he was on cocaine and was stealing money from me, I tried to get rid of him. Hence the threats, and I left the country in no time. Certainly an uncommon situation, and possibly I made a serious mistake in my judgement of this person. But the point is that if one relocates to another country on his/her own, there is a greater need to depend on others. Hence a possible serious risk, particularly in Medellin where the culture of violence and abuse has not really changed since the Escovar period. I am still thinking of Colombia, but the lesson learnt is still hurting.

bigjailerman
  8/13/2016 09:03 EST

How was he stealing from you? Do you mean a body guard during you photo shoots/jobs?

canpandave
  8/13/2016 09:07 EST

Perhaps his issues are related to his 'alternative' lifestyle and traveling with his young boytoy......

olivio
  8/13/2016 09:32 EST

@bigjailerman One needs to be with someone watching over you and your equipment while you work (photographying) in the street. Can't work if you are concerned about if and when you are getting robbed. I have travelled and worked in more than 60 countries and occasionally had problems with locally recruited assistants, but never before received threats. Just made the wrong choice in Medellin.

bigjailerman
  8/13/2016 09:43 EST

You cart allot of gear for your street work?
I don't like to even bring my gear bag with me too many places any more. My wife gets on me with that whenever I grab it... Baby where are you going with your backpak lol..? With the cute Colombian English accent.

Once the locals know you, security can go with it in my opinion..

I think it's Tim in Cali shoots big gear therre, he says has no issue there.. Maybe Medellin is not the best choice. I assume you shoot not just in the tourist area's?

briloop
  8/13/2016 10:11 EST

On the subject of photography safety in Colombia:

During my eight months in Medellin, I used my big camera three times. The first time was at a farmer's market. Someone approached my wife and told her in Spanish that it wasn't safe for me to use such a camera in public. So, I bought a compact camera to use in public, a camera that could be more easily hidden and didn't attract attention.

The second and third times I used my big camera was at a food and wine fair held indoors, and the Jardin Botanico. Both times my wife and I went by taxi from our apartment to the destinations, and again by taxi back to our apartment. The camera was kept in a rather plain bag. The camera was never taken out of the bag unless we were inside. I thought it was a pity that for eight months I couldn't safely use my big camera in public.

On the subject of crime in Colombia:

People should think twice about moving to Colombia. There are people in Colombia who are desperate enough that they will steal from you, even in a public place with other people around.

My wife, who is native Colombian, has family members who have been crime victims. They've been robbed in person, and have had possessions stolen that were in a house or a garage.

I've read accounts online, in this forum and others, and on Medellin area newspapers, of people who have been victims of crime in Colombia. The guy who started Medellin Living had his smartphone stolen while he was riding in a taxi. Medellin police routinely arrest criminals in the Parque Lleras area, which is probably the most touristic area in Medellin.

I could go on and on and on about crime in Colombia. There's enough material to fill several books, maybe even a small library.

jonrod888
  8/13/2016 10:43 EST

What ever happened to that guy who started Medellin Living? A little over a year ago he was threatened after writing some articles on sex tourism, left the country and I haven't seen anything written by him since.

CAtoMDE
  8/13/2016 11:03 EST

Heck I live in a relatively good neighborhood of Long Beach, California and a year ago, while parked in front of my residence, had the brand new Ford F-150 tail gate stolen, wham gone. Sh*t happens, talked to others on the block and best comments "that's life in the city".

Now I too am married to Paisa, we are both very low keyed, we speak nothing of the finca and apartment and other things we have in Medellin.

I would love to blend in during my many visits to Colombia since 1991 but at 6'-7" and pushing 300 lbs. with green eyes it is impossible, but by god the attention in my single days in Colombia was priceless.

Mi espousa has been robbed a few times in the past 20 years, once or twice at knife and gun point, all for her phone.

One time her and her brother in a car, approached by a bandito with knife/hatchet to his sister, wrong, no problem as my brother-in-law is very street smart, so he slammed his car and killed him, that's life in Medellin.

Trust no one in Colombia, especially your in-laws and their friends and extended family. Over the course of 6-7 years I can say that I trust 2 people, these are older family members (cousins) who have zero jealousy and have earned my trust.

CAtoMDE
  8/13/2016 11:04 EST

Heck I live in a relatively good neighborhood of Long Beach, California and a year ago, while parked in front of my residence, had the brand new Ford F-150 tail gate stolen, wham gone. Sh*t happens, talked to others on the block and best comments "that's life in the city".

Now I too am married to Paisa, we are both very low keyed, we speak nothing of the finca and apartment and other things we have in Medellin.

I would love to blend in during my many visits to Colombia since 1991 but at 6'-7" and pushing 300 lbs. with green eyes it is impossible, but by god the attention in my single days in Colombia was priceless.

Mi espousa has been robbed a few times in the past 20 years, once or twice at knife and gun point, all for her phone.

One time her and her brother in a car, approached by a bandito with knife/hatchet to his sister, wrong, no problem as my brother-in-law is very street smart, so he slammed his car and killed him, that's life in Medellin.

Trust no one in Colombia, especially your in-laws and their friends and extended family. Over the course of 6-7 years I can say that I trust 2 people, these are older family members (cousins) who have zero jealousy and have earned my trust.

Andresen
  8/13/2016 11:17 EST

David? He must be still around. I get new emagazines from him almost every week. But to answer your question specifically, I don't know where he is living now.

Andresen
  8/13/2016 11:17 EST

David? He must be still around. I get new emagazines from him almost every week. But to answer your question specifically, I don't know where he is living now.

briloop
  8/13/2016 11:47 EST

jonrod888,

If you are referring to David Lee, I don't know what he is up to. I was not aware that he had written articles on sex tourism. I knew he left the country, but I thought it was because his business visa had expired. I remember he had written about the experience he had in obtaining the visa, and it was good for only 180 days.

I haven't followed Medellin Living in over a year. I searched the site, and the most recent article I can find written by him was posted August 14, 2014.

He is also a travel blogger (http://gobackpacking.com/about/), so he might be working on that. I used to follow his Instagram account, but that appears to have disappeared.

briloop
  8/13/2016 11:58 EST

Correction: I found David Lee's Instagram account: https://www.instagram.com/rtwdave/

livinginmedellin
  8/13/2016 12:14 EST

I am aware that David Lee no longer lives in Medellín. So he's an example of an expat that left.

jonrod888
  8/13/2016 12:21 EST

There's more to David Lee than he's left Colombia. He started Medellin Living, he wrote articles on the "Say no to sex tourism" campaign in Poblado, he subsequently wrote that he was threaten and what agencies you need to see if it happens to you (what steps he took), then he left Colombia. I searched Medellin Living archives and found nothing, so those articles have been deleted. You be your own judge and LIM you obviously know all.

Andresen
  8/13/2016 12:36 EST

The following is from Medellin Living, August 11, 2016. Note he signed it at the bottom but of course that doesn't explain where he is.

Hi ,

This year's Feria de las Flores (Flower Festival) wrapped up Sunday, and we're now in for a lull of major events until late November when the city lights up for Christmas.

I've received a few questions about the International Jazz Festival. It should be coming in September-October, but the official website hasn't been updated for 2016 (yet).

New Stories

Desfile de Autos Clasicos (Classic Car Parade) Photos 2016 - Desfile de Autos Clasicos (Classic Car Parade) is one of the most popular events during La Feria de las Flores (Flower Festival) and Jeff shares photos from this year’s parade.

Medellín on the Web

Jennifer Lopez to Start as Colombian Drug Matriarch in HBO Films' The Cocaine Godmother -- Broadway World

Event Calendar

Visit our event calendar to find out what's happening in the city.

Know of an event you think we should list? Send the details or a link to the event page on Facebook to [email protected]

If you have any questions or suggestions, hit "reply" and I'll do my best to answer them. I do my best to respond to every email, however, response times vary.

Saludos,

Dave
Editor in Chief
medellinliving.com

GringoPaisa
  8/13/2016 13:13 EST

The Grass is always greener? LOL. Ecuador has a VERY struggling economy right now. Mi Amigo has 2 houses there and some property by the ocean. He is not retired or moved there yet. I would stick it out in Colombia, things always look better through the looking glass but actually aren't once you get there. I might change my tune as far as moving back to the US it we get oust the current Libtard Dems from our Government, then it might be the place to live once again. Honestly, i have been ALL over Ecuador and it a lovely place. I never got the danger feeling and el ojo de del diablo anywhere i went in Ecuador like i have in Colombia, but I still love Colombia more. IF i were to consider living in Ecuador, it probably would be in Salinas area or most likely Cuenca, many Gringos there and its absolutely gorgeous.

GringoPaisa
  8/13/2016 13:14 EST

The Grass is always greener? LOL. Ecuador has a VERY struggling economy right now. Mi Amigo has 2 houses there and some property by the ocean. He is not retired or moved there yet. I would stick it out in Colombia, things always look better through the looking glass but actually aren't once you get there. I might change my tune as far as moving back to the US it we get oust the current Libtard Dems from our Government, then it might be the place to live once again. Honestly, i have been ALL over Ecuador and it a lovely place. I never got the danger feeling and el ojo de del diablo anywhere i went in Ecuador like i have in Colombia, but I still love Colombia more. IF i were to consider living in Ecuador, it probably would be in Salinas area or most likely Cuenca, many Gringos there and its absolutely gorgeous.

8901
  8/13/2016 14:48 EST

I said it before but it's worth repeating. Not only do you need to be on guard with Colombians but with your fellow expats as well.

Until you have know someone for an extended period you should not just assume that because he or she is from back home in the Western World that all is good.

ExPats in Panama seem keenly aware of this and will advise you on their boards to avoid any banking/business transactions with an expat as you have a better chance at a happy ending dealing with a Panamanian.

We are there to socialize and have fun but just at least initially set some boundaries.

jonrod888
  8/13/2016 16:44 EST

Easily found the articles by David Lee of Medellin Living on a Google search. Not sure if any of this led to his exit from Colombia (he did leave just after the last article) but below are the links if you are interested.

http://medellinliving.com/online-harassment-cyberstalking-colombia/

http://medellinliving.com/no-to-sex-tourist/

geoffbob
  8/13/2016 23:41 EST

A few years ago and after only a few days in Quito I was asked by a gringo to translate for him at the office of his dentist. As we approached the building I couldn't help notice bullet holes in the wall. We were being viewed very suspiciously by a couple of men who appeared to be nothing more than state security henchmen goons. They were quite slovenly in appearance, not well built, in shape or professional at all. It turns out that the Quito Police Department had recently kidnapped President Correa and held him for ransom in a dispute involving their salary. Things got out of hand and someone was killed, hence the bullet holes in the wall. A few days later state security descended on the lobby of my hotel to grill the elderly owner about her affairs. I happened to be sitting in the chair next to her. When the interrogator asked her if she was the boss she replied that she was the boss's boss to which I chuckled in delight. The security guy instantly turned to me with a distasteful and menacing scowl; yet another goon I concluded. The American embassy in Quito altered my itinerary when it subsequently advised me that owing to a spike in crime, travel to Guayaquil was not recommended. I pushed on to Cuenca where a young girl staying at my centrally located posada was robbed on the sidewalk at the front entrance. I had been considering moving to Cuenca but in the end I was put off by my experiences and the black toxic heavy metal smoke spewed out by the busses and trucks which was worse than anything I see in Medellin.
One other thing about Ecuador and Correa was, in my view, truly cringe worthy. Correa rammed through laws forcing the free press into permanent submission. It is now illegal under penalty of fine, closure or seizure to print anything deemed "unfriendly" to Correa. It seems there is to be no more mention of the riches that fell out of the sky and into the lap of Correa's brother who secured government contracts after Rafael became president. Instead I moved to Medellin. It's more to my liking.
.

8901
  8/14/2016 00:28 EST

Thanks for the very informative post on Ecuador geoffbob.

I never knew how unstable Correa's tenure was.

You peaked my curiosity and I came across this very good article which really explains allot for anybody else that is interested.

https://panampost.com/jose-marulanda/2016/03/11/will-a-military-coup-oust-ecuadorian-president-correa/

meincolombia
  8/14/2016 07:46 EST

One thing I´ve always been leery of in these expat forums is the number of posters who read stuff from the forums then repost it as if they themselves are the experts, when in fact, they´ve never even been to the country they post about.

All of us who have lived overseas for a large percentage of our lives are well aware of the dangers of living in in any country, even our home country.
I´ve been robbed in Colombia, and in Africa and in Asia AND in the United States. So, sh*t happens, get over it already. I´ve been traveling, working and living in third world countries since I was 17, and I consider myself quite fortunate to have only been robbed 4 times in my 6 decades of exposure.
As for Ecuador, I´m sure there are many expats with bad experiences in Ecuador, just as there are in Colombia and Panama and Costa Rica.
Just to keep things in perspective, there are thousands more expats living happily in Ecuador than there are in Colombia even though Ecuador is a small country compared to Colombia, with only about 1/3 the population.
Here is a link to some happy campers in Ecuador
http://gringosabroad.com/expats-living-in-ecuador/
One thing that stands out in Ecuador is the large number of married couples that retire there form US and Europe. In Colombia, most of the expats are either single (men) or married to a Colombian.
Expat forums in Ecuador have thousands of active members, while the two surviving expat forums in Colombia have only a couple dozen each.

meincolombia
  8/14/2016 08:33 EST

In the above post I spoke of the two surviving expat forums in Colombia, this one and the other one.
The other forum (colombianconnections.freeforums.net)
founded by a long term resident of Colombia who sincerely has the communities best interest at heart is free of trolls.
Our forum (expatexchange) has one troll.
I glanced through a few search results for internet troll, and this one, (dark psychology.co), is worth reading....here is an excerpt;

¨As a forensic psychologist having spent the last 20 years working with criminal, addicted, psychopathological and cybercriminal minds, the Internet Troll is a unique and complex profile. Trolls (aka, Internet Trolls) and the characters they assume, are driven by primitive psychodynamic themes. One does not have to be a forensic psychologist or criminal profiler to understand how deeply disturbed they are. The Troll relies upon a fragmented unconscious and lives within a fantasy world of being powerful, in control and envied by all others.
In reality, they feel completely opposite of what is portrayed to others. From an intrapersonal and interpersonal dynamics standpoint, Trolls are plagued by immense feelings of inferiority, isolation, rage, paranoia and jealousy for peers. Instead of getting professional help or support from loved ones, Trolls prefer their insignificant virtual world fueled by grandiosity fantasies.¨

8901
  8/14/2016 10:08 EST

By most standards, there are a maximum of seven continents - Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia/Oceania, Europe, North America, and South America. Many geographers and scientists now refer to six continents, where Europe and Asia are combined (because they're one solid landmass).
_________________________________

Quote by meincolombia

" I´ve been robbed in Colombia, and in Africa and in Asia AND in the United States. "
-----------------------------------------

@ meincolombia. You seem extremely consumed by trolls and very nonchalant over the fact that you are a serial victim ????

As stated above there are 6 or arguably 7 continents and assuming you have not been to all of them you have yet succeeded in being robbed in four of the World's Continents ??

Basically every where you go.

I have been to three continents and though it could change next trip (hopefully not) I have never been robbed in any of them. But I have gotten laid in each of them. lol

Have you ever considered your being a serial victim may be due in part to either your mannerism ?
your habits ? or your dress ?

See where I'm going with this?
Getting robbed and not getting laid.
vs.
Getting laid and not getting robbed.

Maybe spending less time worrying about internet trolling and more time on self and you might start enjoying safer vacationing and happier times behind closed doors !

bigjailerman
  8/14/2016 13:05 EST

Wow, that's too much forum information for me... Lol..
If I'm not liking a particular forum, I don't post and ignore it until I feel it again.
I choose my topic to participate in, or maybe follow what a friend is posting. Trolls have ZERO effect on me, online, or elsewhere.

Andresen
  8/14/2016 13:09 EST

BJM, I agree. I usually take that same tack myself. Just lay low and let it pass. But it is still sad to see it go on!

8901
  8/14/2016 13:29 EST

I just found out that my Social Security when I retire in 4 years + 9 months is going to be 50 % more than I had anticipated.

Made my day and no troll can ruin that for me. You need to have perspective on whats important.

bigjailerman
  8/14/2016 14:02 EST

Absofreakinglutely!!!

psyberpete
  8/16/2016 23:27 EST

False quivalency -- which is the refuge of the right wing. If anything I WISH (ojala!) that Obama would act and fight a little dirtier. The truth is that you CAN'T find an article (that isn't just a repeat) for every article about Trump or the right wing. Please -- go ahead. I'll wait. YOU CAN'T. He's so scupulous it makes him boring!

As far as Colombia goes, it's like anything else in life -- que lo agradesca por lo que es. Tengo familia por mi esposo (una pareja gay y nadie en Colombia parece a importarlo). La familia me da tan mucho satisfacion que the climate, the people, the restaurants, and the soul del paisa son the icing on the cake.

If you're here for the wrong reasons, absolutely, you're not going to like it. Que lo descubra lo que busca. But Ecuador? Pee on my other leg.

psyberpete
  8/16/2016 23:45 EST

Wow --

Gay man here. Married to a gay man in Colombia. We also have a house in Massachusetts. Nobody in Colombia cares about our sexuality unless they're keeping it a secret which means they afford me more respect than you just did. You came all the way to Colombia to be a homophobe? Excuse me, "homophobe" since you seem to like quotations. Si es todo que tiene a ofrecer es un buen idea a decir nada.

geoffbob
  8/17/2016 08:44 EST

False quivalency will always try to take advantage of scupulous behavior.

LaPiranha
  8/17/2016 22:47 EST

Did I miss something?

I don't see any homophobic comments.

But for the record, no-one cares about my sexuality either. In fact, one's sexuality is a personal thing. In my book, if you're a good person, I like you. If you're not a good person, I don't like you. Isn't that the way its supposed to be? It doesn't matter if you are black, white, purple or green, disabled, homosexual, lesbian, straight, communist, Muslim or Catholic. Its still the same, depends totally on you and how you are with those around you.

psyberpete
  8/18/2016 11:06 EST

This is what I was referring to.

canpandave
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8/13/2016 09:07 EST

Perhaps his issues are related to his 'alternative' lifestyle and traveling with his young boytoy......

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psyberpete
  8/18/2016 11:08 EST

Hi LaPirhana --

Already cut and pasted what I was responding to but thought I'd add that I agree with you.

Felipe58
  8/18/2016 12:55 EST

Like yourself I am a Brit, I moved here nearly five years ago, when the exchange rate was not so good, within a couple of years, I was getting nearly double, and it is tempting to change your standard of living accordingly, but I have in the main resisted, and following the Brexit Referendum, there was a drop but not significant, and I had budgeted for this, this month the exchange rate went back up, although in the lats couple of days it dropped again... this is the main problem with emigrating, if you are just on your pension, you have to be aware of your spending.

That said, I have a far better life here than I could ever have had back in the UK, or even Spain where I lived for six years before moving here.

Contrary to your declaration, Healthcare and Education is not free in the UK, yes, it is free at source, but you pay for it through your taxes, which are why taxes in the UK are so much higher than here and elsewhere, but that also has it's advantages, because DIAN offset your tax payments in the UK against your tax here, so until now I have paid $0 tax, but that is expected to change next year with the new tax regime. (Although there is no double tax treaty, Colombia still has an arrangement with the UK's HMRC)

There has never been any question of my Colombian wife moving from here, I am retired, she like yourself and others, has her family here, and unlike many, no desire to move.

Unlike yourself, I feel that I will never be totally accepted, I will always be an extranjero, but I am happy here, and Colombia is now my home. I won't move from here, a) because I am happy, b) I couldn't afford to!

LaPiranha
  8/18/2016 13:44 EST

Psyberpete ..... aaaaaahhh, now I understand. Didn't see his post the first time around, but thanks for explaining. Yep, there was no need for his comment.


Felipe. Yeah, I can relate to that. At one time I was getting 4800 - 5000 pesos to the quid, and now its at 3700 - 3800, a drop of 25% from its highs. But like you, I allowed for a fall, and luckily I'm not affected too much.

Take your point, we do pay for Health and Education via our taxes, haha, yeah, nothing in life is free. But like you, I am here because I love Colombia, even through all its faults.

guestuser
  8/18/2016 14:20 EST

Must admit we're looking at maybe going back to Blighty around 'Xmas for a vacation, in particular if the forecasts of GBP/$ getting to the 1.20 levels.

LaPiranha
  8/18/2016 15:43 EST

Hey PL, bring us back some Marmite and Oxo cubes. Can't find them anywhere here.

(Mind you, I'm in Bogota. Where are you?)

guestuser
  8/18/2016 16:02 EST

Medellin

Haven't seen them either but then I haven't really been looking for Marmite....

SkyMan
  8/18/2016 19:27 EST

LivinginMedellin...please chill out...stable, I did not use that word in my post...I merely gave others the truth about Cuenca, Ecuador(it's climate, etc.). Hey guy...I'm moving to Medellin, O.K. for many of the same reasons you have posted that Medellin is a great city. So...go after someone who is a troll, not me. I like Medellin a lot, and have traveled there
on many trips on business(legal biz)...so it is a world-class-city with great dining & shopping. Obviously...we will not meet for drinks, upon my arrival...but I do wish you a happy life in the future.

SkyMan
  8/18/2016 19:34 EST

Please excuse the time lapse in my answering your post. Yes, I have spent a month in Loja. Ecuador...a decent city with not many good cafes nor restaurants. Also I did not find any parque like Parque Calderon, in Cuenca. You'll need to know a decent amount of espanol to make it in Loja. there is, at least I did not find it...a Central City, like in Cuenca...but as I posted...I do not like cold & rainy, thus the move to Medellin. I spent 10 days in Vilcabamba, and it's real estate is way over-priced, and 25% of the residents are gringos, who hate the U.S. It's kinda like going to Sou. California ,in the 60's with hippies & flower children...mostly stoned after 2:00 p.m. Not my cup of tea.

LaPiranha
  8/18/2016 20:06 EST

PL. Take a tip. If you're ever going down the mountains a bit, to where the mosquitos hang out, eat some Marmite every morning (like on toast for breakfast, or in the evening). The mosquitos won't come near you all day. They can smell the stuff coming out of your pores (humans can't), they hate it. I've used it, and it works. Zika?Malaria? Dengue? Chikungunya? No problem.

The Oxos, well I've tried the local stuff, Costilla(?) and its so weak you need a whole box to equate to one Oxo. Dreadful taste compared. And Bisto is another essential ingredient for the Sunday roast. :)

guestuser
  8/18/2016 22:05 EST

@lp so if I cover myself in marmite no one or no thing will bother me? Probably works. On local oxo equivalents agree with you, so you got to make your own stock. Local beef never makes my Sunday lunch but here in Medellin there's decent frozen leg of lamb. The beef works for cottage pie (big favorite with the locals).

Lived a few places in England - any of these intersect with you? Family roots north Devon/Norwich. Born Sudbury, Suffolk. Then Isles of Scilly, Hartlepool, Markyate Hertforshire, Dorset, the Cotswolds, East Ham, Balham, Walthamstow, Bromley and finally (before crossing the big pond) Wanstead.

LaPiranha
  8/19/2016 00:00 EST

HaHaHa, no, it seeps out through the skin, supposedly. I've never wanted to waste the stuff by smearing my bo***** (errr, body) in it. What a waste of good Marmite. But as they say, you either love it or hate it.

Wow, so close. Yeah, I've lived in the Fens, quite close to Norwich, Hertford and Stevenage in Hertfordshire, Weymouth, Portland and Bournemouth, all in Dorset, Grew up near Stowe-on-the-Wold and Moreton-in-the-Marsh in the Cotswolds, Bristol as a teenager. In London I was in Hampstead, Finchley and Brixton, but spent many many years in Cornwall, esp Falmouth and Penryn. Yeah, we travelled a lot, as my father was in the RAF.

Small world, eh?

LaPiranha
  8/19/2016 00:09 EST

You know where they get Marmite from? Its from the used yeast after making beer with it.

cafetero
  8/19/2016 08:30 EST

I have an English friend here in Pereira who swears by Marmite to increase his lilbido, too. He can´t find it in Colombia so friends bring it over from England when they visit.
He says Vitamin B-12 Brewer´s Yeast is the next best thing, and you can sometimes find it in natural health food stores.

waswiser
  8/20/2016 10:34 EST

I have lived in Colombia for the past four and a half years. It took three and a half years to find the right woman. Because most of these women wanted glory of the almighty dollar. I am 58 years old. Retired Canadian Soldier who was living the life of Riley. I lived in Panama 9 months before I moved here with my ex Canadian wife. That was a mistake. Panama has nothing to offer. Where is Colombia has everything to offer. I believe Colombia is one of the cheapest places to live on the planet. Everything is available here. The only problem I have is finding a suitable place to finally settle down and purchase a home. I have lived in three areas of Colombia and enjoy it. But I have never lived where expat resided. So now I'm looking for a place to take my 23 year old wife to pass the rest of my lifetime. If you have any recommendations please advise me. I have lived in Zipaquera, Tulua and now Pereira. Looking to move to another place in March. Sometimes I'm a little lonely for the English language.
However I am like you. I never want to leave Colombia. The people are so respectful here. The country is beautiful. And the economy is so cheap to live.
If there's anyone who wants to keep in touch while living here in Colombia. You can contact me directly in my email. [email protected]

cafetero
  8/20/2016 12:30 EST

Welcome to Pereira, I´ve been living in this region for several years and I like it, too. I traveled in that area north of Bogota a few years ago. I like it, too, but I prefer the coffee region.
There is a Facebook page for Pereira Social Group. There are a couple dozen expats. They meet a couple times each month for drinks. You will find plenty of English speakers there, along with French, Italian, Egyptian and Colombian :-)
Do you want to settle in Pereira? What parts of Pereira are most appealing to you?

waswiser
  8/20/2016 12:56 EST

After living in Tulua for two-and-a-half years. I had to move. I helped a lot of poor families out. They would send their kids to my house at 11 o'clock at night looking for food or money. Even when I move to another neighborhood there they still followed me. So I came to Pereira because I had a friend living here. But it turned out he just was an idiot. But after eight months here I love the climate. As for seeing the area I have lots of time to do that. I've gone to Park Cafe and visited a few other places like Belin, Cartago, La Virginia. I rent a large house here in Los Nogales. It is nice and private however just getting tired of it very quickly. I had a house in Cerritos with a large swimming pool. But the woman never wanted to fix anything in the house. So I walked out on the contract. I had every right to do it. So what is this social site name on Facebook for gringos in Pereira. I searched for it but could not find it. I'm just looking for a little intelligent conversation with others. Meeting up once or twice a month would be nice. So drop me a line when you have time. Good hearing from you

cafetero
  8/20/2016 19:13 EST

Pereira Social Group

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1734021276835674/
Like all groups there are a few you like and a few you don´t like. I haven´t been to the meetings for quite a while, but I think they are still happening twice a month.

I´ve been to Tulua a few times on the bus going to Buga and Lago Calima. Very different climate zone in Tuluá versus Pereira. I prefer the mountains.
Yes, it is always a problem when the poor people beg you for money for food and medicine. It´s happened to me several times and its never fun.

cccmedia
  8/20/2016 21:07 EST

Was Wiser,

What does Colombia offer than Panama does not ?

----------

Medellin might be better for you given the need to connect with Expats and to speak English. The Internations.org sites and medellinliving.com have information about Expat meetups and events.

cccmedia, posting from Armenia, Colombia

guestuser
  8/20/2016 22:35 EST

Internations? Have you been to any of their meetings in Medellin? From my experience they're of little value to any expat in the city. If anything they're very clique based and not welcoming to new joiners.

In reality - and we were discussing this only a few days ago - there isn't much of an expat scene in Medellin. Perhaps there could be - but there really isn't one at present.

cccmedia
  8/21/2016 00:04 EST

To quote the late commentator John McLaughlin (1927-2016) who passed away this week:

“WRONG !!”

I did attend an Internations monthly gathering -- in June of this year -- and it was nothing like what you described.

The members were friendly .. host Joe was extremely helpful .. and it compared favorably to the many Internations gatherings I have attended previously in Quito, Ecuador.

The folks who attended at Cielo Divino near Parque LLeras that night did not come to snub anyone, and I saw no signs of 'cliquishness.’

cccmedia from Eje Cafetero

guestuser
  8/21/2016 07:47 EST

@cc so I'm 'wrong' because you went to one meeting and thought it was good and my experience has been that it isn't?

The fact that the only expat meeting group that you can find in the city is a commercial enterprise should at least tell you a lot about the level of expat activities in the city. Personally I think that true ex pat communities and the phrase 'premium membership' don't go together well.

When I've tried the meetings

- there were a lot of people who weren't ex pats. They were either passing through town or locals looking to improve English language skills/'net working'; nothing wrong there but that's not an expat meeting group
- what appeared to be the hard core members were busily saving places at tables for their friends who had yet to arrive. That's welcoming and not cliquey?
- I'll suggest that Internations is actually focused on a different age range to the majority of people who post on this forum or are in fact resident ex pats here. The average age of Internations members is meant to be around 37. That's an average, and still two decades short of most of the expats here.

jonrod888
  8/21/2016 08:28 EST

Internations is what is it ... expats meeting. Some like it, some don't. What else is new about anything? I go to meetings I want to sit with old friends, not some wannabe know it all. This forum is called expat exchange ... there are some expats, there are some who are not. They haven't left their birth city yet ... so what. It is what it is. Get over it and stop challenging everyone who disagrees. You are not the superior being.

jonrod888
  8/21/2016 08:32 EST

On a now dead forum, we tried to meet at least once a month, Only a hand full of people showed up at first, then it was down to 2 of us. So much for expat meetings in Medellin.

guestuser
  8/21/2016 08:57 EST

Ah! The great JR has spoken. All kneel to the forum troll. Post something he disagrees with and of course you're the problem. You need to stop 'challenging'.

As you say some like Internations and some don't. But now I understand that because I don't - and you do - I need to stop posting. After all only JR knows best..

Would it help JR if I sent any future postings to you beforehand so that you could check them over (I promise not to use any big or difficult words) so that I make sure I don't upset you again by posting something that doesn't fit in with your way of looking at life?

jonrod888
  8/21/2016 10:33 EST

Well, Mrs. Lost, you posted then CCC responded but you needed to repost again insulting CCC. You are the instigator and can't let things go ... repeating yourself a number of times does not make your arguments any stronger.

jonrod888
  8/21/2016 10:46 EST

Mrs. Lost, earlier in this tread you said, " I think one reason that people might think twice about moving to Colombia is looking at this forum, hoping for some information, and instead finding that it's increasingly full of trolls behaving like school children. I got a dose of the trolls a couple of weeks ago and it isn't pleasant.

Personally I've got to the point where it doesn't seem worth sharing an opinion or information as someone will just use it as ammunition to troll. "

You are the little child ... I know something you don't know ... and I'm going to tell mommy ... I'm not going to share any more thoughts till everyone leaves me alone ... and there is more than me who you argue with. So take your ball and stop playing this game.

guestuser
  8/21/2016 10:46 EST

'Mrs Lost' - you really are a sad person aren't you.

You also need to read rather than just attack. I didn't insult the other poster I just gave my reasons why I disagreed. You need to understand that - a differing opinion is not an insult - it's a different opinion.

In telling me no to 'challenge' you of course missed that we actually agreed on several points on Internations. What we disagreed on is whether we liked it.

I said that the people there were a mix - not just ex pats - but that it wasn't a problem. You said exactly the same.

I said that it wasn't an easy place to access if you were new. You agreed. You said that you'd rather sit and talk with your friends.

And then we both agreed that there wasn't much else for ex-pats in Medellin. You'd tried to set up a group and it hadn't worked out.

You also see developing arguments as 'repeating yourself'. Perhaps you should try developing your arguments rather than immediately going to the 'Mrs Lost' playground insults.

And what is it you've got with 'wannabes'? What is it that I'm suggesting I want to be? Is it that I want to be you? Is it that I want to post on the board? Is it that I want to be a member of Internations but you're too busy with your friends?

You're a troll and not a very bright one at that.

waswiser
  8/21/2016 13:24 EST

I find that the price of living in Panama has risen at least 80% in the past 11 years I was visiting there before I moved there. Therefore it is no longer cheap to live in Panama. Secondly I was living on the Atlantic in a place called Bocas del Toro. You are either getting personally robbed every week or you're apartment was being robbed. So I just got tired of it. I've been moved to Coronado area. Lots of expats there. Good friends good times but I don't want to be drunk all the time. So I left there. However since coming to Colombia for years ago I have been happy living in the life of Riley. Colombia has a lot to offer. Colombia is a lot more civilized than Panama.
I am retired military so I have no problem with confrontation. However I'm a very passive person until provoked.

guestuser
  8/22/2016 14:34 EST

Colanta Calle 10 just above Poblado Avenue in Medellin. They have a freezer display towards the back just in front of the butcher's counter. Legs - generally run around COP 50k. They have cutlets as well, but I only used those in stews. One positive thing is that they're not really super frozen like a lot of the meat you'll find here - it'll defrost in around 8-10 hours and still has a decent texture.

They also have chops but they sort of overdo the French on the cut so I haven't tried them.

Interesting enough (and it's the only place I've seen it in Medellin) they also have Halal meat.

I did start growing the mint for the sauce. Now I'm working on how to stop the mint growing...

Do you think your goat/lamb cross is mutton?

livinginmedellin
  8/22/2016 15:01 EST

Back to the original post topic, "some are coming, while others are going."

The retirement publications (International Living and Live & Invest Overseas) have been touting Colombia for a while with their rose-colored glasses.

I wonder what percentage of expats that move to Colombia end up leaving within 2-3 years? From what I have seen I suspect it's perhaps one-third (33%) or even higher.

They leave for a variety of reasons - Colombia didn't meet their expectations once the rose-colored glasses came off, language barrier (can't learn Spanish), culture shock, family issues (i.e. Dad is sick back home), health, employment opportunity, crime (I know one that recently left who was robbed a couple times and a final straw was when he returned home to find his place ransacked), homesickness (miss friends and family back home),

I recall seeing a study a while ago that the average time an expat spends overseas is about three and a half years..

The last expat I talked to that was leaving Colombia and going back to the U.S. said that he couldn't learn Spanish and was tired of hanging out with a few gringos, missed Thanksgiving, missed his favorite foods and missed his family and friends.

I find that prospective expats too often fail to thoroughly research a move to Colombia.

guestuser
  8/22/2016 15:07 EST

I do wonder if one of key factors is whether people have lived abroad before - or at least spent time working abroad. If you've never spent time abroad - except on vacation - relocating might be a bigger shock to the system than someone who has 'learnt' to adapt to a different country.

It might even explain how so many ex-military seem to make the transition successfully. Presumably many of them have spent overseas on postings.

jonrod888
  8/22/2016 15:10 EST

LIM, good observations. Someone else wrote that when it's time to move just move on to something else. In hindsight I now tend to agree with you on rental with it's flexibility. No need to buy with inexpensive rentals and variety of locations.

LaPiranha
  8/22/2016 23:11 EST

P L. I learned the secret of growing mint 50 years ago from my parents. It will spread like wildfire, so you have to grow it in a bucket, where the roots cannot spread to the neighbouring soil.

Try it. You should have all the mint you need, without the hassle of keeping it tidy.

guestuser
  8/23/2016 08:40 EST

Thanks LP I will try that.

I wonder if growing in a bucket is an analogy of how one should live in Colombia as an ex-pat!

sticking202
  8/27/2016 07:53 EST

i like what u had to say moving in oct-2016

sticking202
  8/27/2016 07:59 EST

why do people believe that a man or woman can change the world just live your life ???? sh _ t

geoffbob
  8/27/2016 08:36 EST

I'd argue that some people have changed the world even if that was not what they set out to do. Whoever it was that discovered that bacteria caused infections changed things. Throughout history and up until recently most people led short, brutal lives. Gutenberg, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs shook up the world and Thomas Edison did too.
Unfortunately I can't think of anybody who has ever changed human nature.

Panabud
  9/11/2016 19:07 EST

Heading back to USA after a decade in Panama. Bottom line... there's no place like home. Life across the board is easier and more pleasant in the States. I may live part time in Medellin but would never make it my home. An American will always be considered an outsider and a gringo no matter what. In your home country you fit right in and everything is intuitive there including relationships. The key is picking the right city in the States that suits your needs and tastes.

BrandonBP
  9/12/2016 00:10 EST

I love Colombia. Very much. I've been to Colombia four times and have spent some great months of my life there.

But my last time this year, I stayed another three months, and I saw more truth about Colombia than before. I guess I was so excited the first times that I missed the continual danger.

In 2013 I got close to being scammed on the street in Medellin by three "police detectives" my third day in Medellin. Later, some real police on a motorcycle stopped me and two buddies in Parque Llleras and got 100 mil from John as a bribe to let us go.

But I let it pass, because I love Colombia so much. The beauty. The great times,. The welcoming people. I was just involved in unfortunate circumstances, I thought.

Colombians say that God made Colombia so beautiful that it's unfair to the rest of the world. And I agree. I love Colombia.

But I spent 3 months in Colombia 6 months ago, and my eyes were opened. I woke up with a smashed face after being robbed in Bogota with no money, no passport, no cell phone, no credit cards. In a two week span, I was robbed once and damn near robbed two more times. I realized what was happening with the other two (taxi robberies), and I got out of them.

I've been to 23 countries on 5 continents. I've been to some dirty, horribly dangerous places in the world. Haiti, Nigeria, El Salvador, Tegucigalpa, Guatemala City, Kingston, Port of Spain, Mexico City, Tijuana, Matamoros, and murder capital San Pedro Sula. And I never been robbed. But they got me in Colombia.

I still love Colombia and wanna come back ASAP. But being robbed to some extent ruined my happy times there. I'll never see it as the same happy, wonderful land that I thought of Colombia the day before it happened.

It's not Disneyland. If you want a walk in the park, Colombia isn't for you. If you're looking for a place to just plain relax without looking over your shoulder, Colombia ain't for you.

I tried not looking over my shoulder for a single night in Colombia, and they got me. It's not a rose garden.

olivio
  9/12/2016 06:37 EST

@BrandonBP

I sympathize with you for your unplesant experiences in Colombia. I do agree with you that Colombia is by no means a country where foreigners can take things easy. Apart from the total unrelibility (and fundamental dishonesty) of Colombians, it is a continous struggle to keep 8 eyes vigilant all the time. I will not return to Colombia and am looking for an alternative country where to spend my retirement under more serene conditions. I am sure others have had more pleasant experiences: good for them.

briloop
  9/12/2016 07:42 EST

Brandon,

I'm sorry for what happened to you. I lived in Medellin for 8 months, and nothing bad happened to me or my wife (she's Colombian, from Cartagena). But, foreigners I met in Medellin told me of bad things that happened to them. My wife and I realize now, that had we stayed in Colombia, we would have eventually become victims of crime.

98% of Colombians are honest people. It's that 2% who are trying to get into your wallet. And some of that 2% will do anything, including violence.

Panabud
  9/12/2016 09:46 EST

Thanks for the reality check Brandon. Half the expats I know in Panama are victims of crime, mainly home invasions and robberies. And the vast majority have been victims of financial scams and hustles. Yet gringos are still piling in droves looking for a cheap paradise. First of all it's not cheap here anymore. Second it's still third world. So what's the point of being here? There is none. A few perks don't outweigh the vast negatives. Having said that a lot of expats who are fed up with Panama have discovered Medellin which they all rave about. I'm talking OMG it's so clean there and the people are so friendly and courteous. You have to go there! So if you think Colombia is bad, imagine what Panama is like. No matter what when you are an expat the rule of law doesn't apply to you. Depending on the level of corruption you have no rights in a foreign country. On paper you might, but in practice it's dicey. People complain about paying taxes in the U.S. but look at all the conveniences and services you get vs. third world where you also pay taxes. In the States if you have a medical emergency all county hospitals must accept and treat you and then bill you later. In a foreign country you must pay up before they treat you and must certainly pay up before you are released. There are no reliable 911 emergency services and the police are corrupt. There's no real law enforcement. It's an endless laundry list of things you give up when you leave your home country. My suggestion is to do research on the various states and cities in the U.S. and find the best match for you. I did just that and found my paradise which is vastly superior to anywhere in Panama and the same cost of living. I love being able to communicate freely with everyone who intuitively get it. Americans have a lingo and it's easy to get a point across and get results. Also the work ethic, competence and trust factor are superior. Love the public beaches and parks which are well kept and user friendly. The roads are well maintained and infrastructure reliable. Pollution control, zoning laws, health and safety standards, sanitation, etc. All the things people complain about with the U.S. are a godsend after you have lived in third world where anything goes.

briloop
  9/12/2016 11:29 EST

Panabud,

I lived in Medellin for 8 months. I wouldn't describe Medellin as "... OMG it's so clean there..." Medellin is far from that. There is open burning and smokestack industry in Medellin. There is contamination in the rivers and creeks in Medellin. Air pollution from cars and trucks.

As far as "...the people are so friendly and courteous...", yes, I would agree for the most part, but there are people in Medellin who aren't so friendly and courteous.

"You have to go there!" My advice: if you really have to go to Medellin, go there for a few days only and have a reputable taxi driver drive you around and see what Medellin has to offer. And don't spend all of your time in Parque Lleras or El Tesoro mall. Go to Laureles, go to Belen, go to Envigado. Take note of all the traffic congestion. Take note of all the poor infrastructure. Take note of all the people living in a third world country. Take note of all the bars on the windows.

Medellin is no bed of roses.

WhoaNellie
  9/12/2016 12:54 EST

Bars on the windows? Puerto Rico has them. Memphis, TN has them.

Everyone's point of view is different - have you lived overseas before, can you speak the local language, have you so far had good experiences or bad experiences, are you OK with living a bit rough around the edges, what is your financial situation, etc. etc.

There is no one size fits all.

I must say though that overall Colombians are quite a happy people for the most part. Ecuador (admittedly a long time ago for me) was somewhat more dour, and the populace more standoffish perhaps because I never learned any Quechua and even the Spanish speakers were reserved (but by no means hostile, as a child I was "muy consentido" and never had any bad experiences).

Colombia is much cleaner in most cities than I remember Ecuador. Most places the people take pride in their neighborhoods.

No bed of roses for sure - my colombiana wife does not want to go back to live in Colombia, even now that we can. They are only now waking up to the pollution of many rivers and forested areas and starting to correct it. For everyday living, for security, for ease of life, for many things, the USA can't be beat.

But I am still called by Colombia, I love the people and the mountains and the attitude towards life which is a mixture of hard work and let's party!

briloop
  9/12/2016 13:57 EST

WhoaNellie,

I never said Medellin was the only city with bars on the windows. It's just that the average American, who reads these posts, has never been outside of the continental U.S., doesn't know how robust the crime situation is in Colombia, and dreams of going there, with these stories, accounts, opinions, etc. that various people post here. There are things posted on this forum that are true, things that are embellishments, and things that are false.

There are people who post on the Internet how wonderful Medellin is. In some cases, these people have a vested interest, i.e., they trying to sell something. They're selling a tour package, they rent out apartments, etc. Or, they get paid by websites like International Living.

To anyone who is reading this thread: be aware of the risk that exists in Colombia. Colombia is not a paradise.

testolas
  9/12/2016 14:40 EST

Yes you can find bars in the windows all over the United States if you just look. It is not until you live with a local family for a while that you really get to know what is going on in a country. You get to talk to the people and understand what is was truly like grown up there. I have always learn to enjoy the moment and enjoy where you are at. Yes you need street sense but this is the same all over this world.

JasonWriter
  9/12/2016 14:45 EST

Whenever I see someone try to claim that a travel destination is "paradise, utopia, the perfect place," I think it's absurd and laughable.

But conversely, I think it's also just as silly when someone solemnly announces, "Such and such a place is no paradise. Beware."

Who the hell thinks anywhere is utopia, I mean really? Even picturesque islands end up getting hammered by hurricanes and tsunamis and looking like he11 on earth. And of course it costs a lot to import things to a picturesque islands, so everything is more expensive. And it gets really boring. And if something goes wrong medically, you might be in trouble. And Somali pirates are a threat to the picturesque island, from time to time. And...

briloop
  9/12/2016 14:51 EST

testolas,

Just because there are barred windows in both the U.S. and Colombia, that doesn't mean the situation is the same in both countries. The crime in Colombia is significantly worse than in the U.S.

You can live with a Colombian family and find out in a very authentic way on how it's like to live there, but that does not make you immune from becoming a victim of a crime.

Yes, you can enjoy the moment and enjoy where you live in Colombia. If that is what you want, there are places much, much better than Colombia to do that.

briloop
  9/12/2016 15:39 EST

JasonWriter,

Thank you for bringing up the subject of Somali pirates. Actually, Medellin has its own version of Somali pirates. It's called "La Oficina de Envigado". Just Google it to find out what these guys are all about. By the way, Wikipedia mentions Pablo Escobar in its definition of La Oficina. Escobar died in 1993, but La Oficina is still, very, very much alive, even to this day.

So, as you are sipping your mojito, sitting outside on a nice warm day in one of the chic bars in El Poblado, and you see a police officer in the area, police officer might be a moonlighting assassin for La Oficina. Or, as you are casually strolling through Centro Comercial de Santa Fe (one of my favorite hangouts when I lived in Medellin), and you see a young man on the escalator, he might just be a hit man willing to kill for as little as $25. Or, you go into a store that seems to always have more employees than customers, that just might be a front for a money laundering operation, courtesy of La Oficina.

JasonWriter
  9/12/2016 16:13 EST

Briloop: I'm in Estadio right now. Sorry, I got distracted by a ray of tropical sunglight in my face, along with 6 gorgeous women walking by, a tray of 1-dollar beers and an impromptu salsa performance that flared up inside this restaurant. Couldn't finish reading your post

BrandonBP
  9/12/2016 16:31 EST

Panabud, you bring up some great points.

I've spent a couple of days in Panama City. I was lucky enough to be traveling with a Panamanian American that took care of me and showed me around. We met some of his old H.S. buddies (all old men) and we went to the horse track. They were super good to me and it was such fun. But looking around the city, I could tell that if these guys weren't with me, I might have a hard time. It looked shady. And I know that's vague, and I can't pinpoint exactly in just two days time what made me feel that way about Panama, but I just felt like I stuck out and like I was constantly being noticed and watched.

And I heard Panama is indeed expensive now because of all the gringos flocking in. That's something Colombia indeed has going for it. Cheap flights there, cheap hotels, food, beer, and bus rides. That will surely change as every gringo and his mother moves in and starts over paying for everything.

And I've seen the Third World parts of Colombia. They're all over. But they also have some very modern things going for them. The nicest malls I've ever seen were in Medellin and Bogota. I lived in California and Atlanta and their malls aren't even as nice.

The theatres are great, lots of the buses are plush, and I stayed in a few hostels for 8-10 bucks a night that were hotel quality.

But with all the great things, the beauty, the fun, the adventure of Colombia, it has lots of things that will aggravate the typical American. I try not to be "that Gringo" who visits another country and complains incessantly about cultural differences. The reason I love to go somewhere different is BECAUSE it's different. The USA bores me.

But the Colombians can sometimes just get under your skin with their Colombianess. I love them. I truly do. But damn1t, they sometimes irk me to no end.

You also brought up a good point about the hospitals. I was dumped out of a cab unconscious into the street after being robbed. Someone called the ambulance and I woke up the next day in the hospital. I still had my clothes on. They didn't even take off my boots. They didn't give me an IV or anything. The only thing I can tell the hospital did for me was a catheter because my privates were on fire when I awoke. And the only reason they did that, I'm sure, is because they didn't want me wetting their bed. I was in a bed lined up in a large room with several other beds with patients. I couldn't tell that I had received any medical services whatsoever.

So now comes the time to pay. I don't have any cash. I have nothing. And the security guy won't lock the door to let me leave. I figured out quickly that the security guy stands at the door and keeps it locked, not to keep out bad guys, but to keep people IN until they've paid.

I tell them, "Look at me. You see my busted face? You know why I'm here and that I have nothing to my name." Yet they still insisted for over two hours that I had to pay before leaving.

The police came to take a report. Not to investigate anything, mind you, just to file a report because the hospital called them. I told the police that the hospital was holding me against my will. They didn't care. They left. There are video cameras all over Bogota and they didn't even care to check any of them to see who got me. I'm pretty sure the taxi had a license plate.

So the hospital finally lets me out after they figure I'm not able to pay them and that I was going to continually complain loudly in the lobby and annoy them until they set me free.

I went to the US Embassy the next day to get a replacement passport and the case officer said, "Oh, you must be the guy that got robbed in Chapinero. The hospital called and wanted us to pay your bill."

I said, "Well, I have nothing to my name. You can't get blood from a turnip." She said yeah, they do it all the time.

So there are indeed some annoying things that happen in Colombia. I laugh at most stuff - I'm good natured when I travel - but some things, man... I can't help but get annoyed.

briloop
  9/12/2016 16:33 EST

JasonWriter,

Be careful of those girls and those beers, guys have been known to be drugged and ripped off. And, once you walk outside your restaurant, don't forget to keep your smartphone in your pocket, less you draw attention to a would-be thief. On your way home, don't forget to stop off at the Cardiso butcher shop in Belen, where, in 2012, Griselda Blanco, mentor to Pablo Escobar, was gunned down. Make sure your windows are rolled up and door locked in your taxi, lest a couple of motorcycle-mounted thieves pull along your taxi when you're stuck in traffic, and try to rob you while they point a gun in your face.

JasonWriter
  9/12/2016 16:42 EST

I'm currently using my iPhone GPS like a divining rod in order to navigate to the slums of San Javier. I have the phone out, along with a stack of U.S. bills ready to pay any Colombian who can help me navigate to the slums. The reason I am going to these Medellin slums is because I want to pick up hot girls and do drugs in the slum. I speak no Spanish but I'm pretty sure my blonde hair and blue eyes will give me a pass in this regard.

testolas
  9/12/2016 16:42 EST

Maybe you never lived in the poor parts of the United States. There are parts of the United States that are very bad I feel every country has good and bad areas.

briloop
  9/12/2016 16:49 EST

testola,

I live in the South. We have our share of poor parts. The problem with Medellin is that it is mostly poor parts. A city the size of Medellin in the U.S. has middle class neighborhoods - people own homes, they own cars, they have jobs that pay decent wages. Middle class in Medellin is a much smaller percentage of the population than is in a city the size of Medellin in the U.S. You can't compare Medellin with a comparable-sized city in the U.S. It's like comparing an apple to an orange. U.S. has poor parts, Colombia has poor parts. Who has most, percentage-wise? Colombia.

germuno
  9/12/2016 16:56 EST

I love Colombia but I don't know of a place to live without guards or bars on windows. Most guys I meet there are just there for the chicas...lots of guys on the websites that arrange for meetings....nothing wrong with that. Even the majority of them that just can't make it with independent women of states & others from the western world.
To compare states with colombia is ludicrous with colombia on top. States have everything...colombia doesn't even have surf....has 2 oceans...but then states have 3.

Panabud
  9/12/2016 18:26 EST

Briloop, I wasn't joking about all the expats here in Panama raving about Medellin. It's a cheap 1hr flight to check out and now they are organizing group tours. I know many expats who are moving there. Why the rave? Panama has a bad reputation for terrible service and the locals don't really like us gringos due to Noriega and the invasion. They tolerate us and like our money. But that's about it. So this place has an edgy hostile vibe toward foreigners. Some expats pick up on it while others are oblivious. What's lacking here are culture and pride so when expats go to Medellin they notice the difference, hence the rave reviews.

I doubt I'll ever live in Colombia so it's a moot point. But for sure would like to check out the paisita scene. Let's be honest that's the main draw for single men to expatriate there.

briloop
  9/12/2016 18:57 EST

Panabud,

It doesn't surprise me that expats in Panama are raving about Medellin. Afterall, isn't the grass greener on the other side? Besides, Medellin is beautiful when you first live there. It's only after a while until you start seeing the warts.

I've known about the paisita scene in Medellin for about 20 years. I know that guys have been going to Medellin since at least the 80's, possibly even before that.

I know how intoxicating Medellin is. I lived there for 8 months. Eventually, the thrill wears off. Most people move on, including my wife and I. The few that stay on are probably in denial, or they're in real estate, trying to lure people down to rent an over-priced apartment.

The most important thing I would like to emphasize is that, during my 8 months in Medellin, quite a few foreigners told me that they had been robbed. Based on their stories, I've concluded that the likelihood a foreigner will become a crime victim in Medellin is better than 50-50.

I know a lot of people who have responded to my posts here are trying to make Medellin make it look like it's some kind of single guy's paradise. It's not. After you sober up and the girls have gone home, you look out the window and you see not all is pretty.

I would not live in Medellin permanently. If I lived in Colombia permanently, it would be in Rio Negro. Even then, I would have a lot of hesitation in moving there permanently.

I would be interested to know how many expats in Panama who decide to move to Medellin actually stay in Medellin permanently. My feeling is that the majority won't stay longer than six months.

dliss62
  9/12/2016 19:54 EST

@Panabud, I was just talking with my wife yesterday about how we need to go and live in Medellin for a while before making a commitment.

I lived in Colombia (Bogota) for 7 years and miss it, but unsure that the magic will be there on my return.

I've been to Medellin numerous times, but never lived there. It's like the house we live in now that we bought last year. We loved it at first, but as time went on we saw the flaws that we did not see on buying day! Not even the inspection revealed the "warts".

BrandonBP
  9/12/2016 22:09 EST

Panabud, you bring up some great points.

I've spent a couple of days in Panama City. I was lucky enough to be traveling with a Panamanian American that took care of me and showed me around. We met some of his old H.S. buddies (all old men) and we went to the horse track. They were super good to me and it was such fun. But looking around the city, I could tell that if these guys weren't with me, I might have a hard time. It looked shady. And I know that's vague, and I can't pinpoint exactly in just two days time what made me feel that way about Panama, but I just felt like I stuck out and like I was constantly being noticed and watched.

And I heard Panama is indeed expensive now because of all the gringos flocking in. That's something Colombia indeed has going for it. Cheap flights there, cheap hotels, food, beer, and bus rides. That will surely change as every gringo and his mother moves in and starts over paying for everything.

And I've seen the Third World parts of Colombia. They're all over. But they also have some very modern things going for them. The nicest malls I've ever seen were in Medellin and Bogota. I lived in California and Atlanta and their malls aren't even as nice.

The theatres are great, lots of the buses are plush, and I stayed in a few hostels for 8-10 bucks a night that were hotel quality.

But with all the great things, the beauty, the fun, the adventure of Colombia, it has lots of things that will aggravate the typical American. I try not to be "that Gringo" who visits another country and complains incessantly about cultural differences. The reason I love to go somewhere different is BECAUSE it's different. The USA bores me.

But the Colombians can sometimes just get under your skin with their Colombianess. I love them. I truly do. But damn1t, they sometimes irk me to no end.

You also brought up a good point about the hospitals. I was dumped out of a cab unconscious into the street after being robbed. Someone called the ambulance and I woke up the next day in the hospital. I still had my clothes on. They didn't even take off my boots. They didn't give me an IV or anything. The only thing I can tell the hospital did for me was a catheter because my privates were on fire when I awoke. And the only reason they did that, I'm sure, is because they didn't want me wetting their bed. I was in a bed lined up in a large room with several other beds with patients. I couldn't tell that I had received any medical services whatsoever.

So now comes the time to pay. I don't have any cash. I have nothing. And the security guy won't lock the door to let me leave. I figured out quickly that the security guy stands at the door and keeps it locked, not to keep out bad guys, but to keep people IN until they've paid.

I tell them, "Look at me. You see my busted face? You know why I'm here and that I have nothing to my name." Yet they still insisted for over two hours that I had to pay before leaving.

The police came to take a report. Not to investigate anything, mind you, just to file a report because the hospital called them. I told the police that the hospital was holding me against my will. They didn't care. They left. There are video cameras all over Bogota and they didn't even care to check any of them to see who got me. I'm pretty sure the taxi had a license plate.

So the hospital finally lets me out after they figure I'm not able to pay them and that I was going to continually complain loudly in the lobby and annoy them until they set me free.

I went to the US Embassy the next day to get a replacement passport and the case officer said, "Oh, you must be the guy that got robbed in Chapinero. The hospital called and wanted us to pay your bill."

I said, "Well, I have nothing to my name. You can't get blood from a turnip." She said yeah, they do it all the time.

So there are indeed some annoying things that happen in Colombia. I laugh at most stuff - I'm good natured when I travel - but some things, man... I can't help but get annoyed.

JasonWriter
  9/12/2016 23:17 EST

But in my 5 months total in Medellin, I've met a whole lot of gringos, people who don't care about online forums, who have been in Medellin for years and love it, for the most part. One friend of mine has to go back to NYC for a year, leaving on Friday, and is depressed as hell and is already planning his return. I'm taking over his cheap and beautiful apartment while he's gone, which is great for me.

Another gringo friend of mine here has lived in Chicago for 20 years, and Medellin for 15. He never wants to return to Chicago, would rather slit his wrists than deal with that winter. He owns a couple houses here and has a Colombian wife. Loves it.

Me, I love Medellin at this point, with my several months here. My rent in a great neighborhood is 240 per month. I met an amazing girl here the first week I arrived. She's 30, I'm 35. Shes extremely well educated, funny as he11, incredibly fun. She pays for me almost as much as I pay for her. The other day we were at a book fair in the botanical gardens, walking the beautiful grounds and looking at the displays of major U.S publishers like Random House and Simon and Schuster, and watching authors read their work and actors portraying classic literary characters. Culture, beauty, fun: loved it. Then she and I walked, walked, from near-Centro to Estadio, at 9 pm. Not a problem.

So far, it seems to me that Medellin is a pretty cool city, all things considered. If I were a wealthy retirement age guy who had never lived in a place like the South Side of Chicago, as I have, and was used to all sorts of glimmering privilege, I'd probably be whining my ass off already, after a few months. But so far I love Medellin

Panabud
  9/12/2016 23:29 EST

At the end of the day it's important to have a connection with a place and its people. Without that then it's not the place for you. Paradise is where you genuinely want to be and that can change over time. For me the whole central/south American region is great to visit and stay for a while but not to expatriate to. Just don't fit into or identify with the culture and will always feel like an outsider. The deal breakers include a general lack of trust for others and the feeling that life is cheap. The lack of striving for excellence and not prioritizing infrastructure and core needs. I just can't live in an environment like that. The whole manana syndrome is absurd and not acceptable in the business world. Period. No excuses or rationalizing. If you want to show up late for a party then fine, but if someone hires you and entrusts you to complete a task on time then just do it with no excuses. There is a point where one must have standards and stick to them otherwise you are selling yourself short. That's my take on the whole situation and why I'm returning to the great place that I left a decade ago in search of adventure and something different. Now I return home with a greater appreciation of what I left behind.

Martini50
  9/13/2016 06:34 EST

What work do you do? How do you support yourself? You said you are 35 years old are you that lucky you don't have to work ?

Martini50
  9/13/2016 06:34 EST

What work do you do? How do you support yourself? You said you are 35 years old are you that lucky you don't have to work ?

Panabud
  9/13/2016 08:08 EST

35 single male is ripe for a place like Medellin. Of course you are going to enjoy living there. But most expats are either retired or near retirement age and their needs and priorities are different as they age. It's harder to learn a new language the older we get. And time becomes our most valuable asset because the clock is ticking. It's a different mindset. Medical needs and emergency services become important. Relying on and trusting others is critical. We are more vulnerable the older we get. I'm still far from retirement age and single but not a spring chicken either. Medellin would be a blast for me which is why I'm considering living there part time. But I'll always have one foot out the door just in case.

jonrod888
  9/13/2016 08:26 EST

Jason, sounds like you are on your honeymoon alright. Continue having fun and enjoying life. All the exaggerations are alive in your writting and I'm sure your girlfriend who is a minimum wage earner while living in/paying for a one bedroom in Robeldo will gladly pay for your dinner at some restaurant in Laureles. No need to impress anyone or are your trying to convince yourself that what you are doing/seeing is unbelievable. Yes, there are many old farts who sit around in Parque Lleras drinking all day with nothing else to do who live their fantasy life and would not change it since they had nothing back in their home country and at least have something here. Your earlier writtings of nothing to do in the US set you up for life in a poor developing country but as time goes on and things become more real, life in Medellin becomes as normal as anywhere else only "cheaper". Botanical Gardens is like Parque Norte, once you've seen it there's no reason to return. Best wishes on rest of your adventure.

briloop
  9/13/2016 08:32 EST

I wish I had a nickel for every "Medellin is a bed of roses" post I've ever read.

Kee
  9/13/2016 09:14 EST

Interesting conversation here between people that passionately hold contradictory opinions about Colombia. For me (married, retired) whether or not to live here is more of a 51/49% decision. It's just not that big of a deal whether I live here or Florida.

Whether or not you are excited to learn a new language (or speak Spanish already) is a factor in how much you will enjoy Colombia. How much you are willing to change your lifestyle is another. Tolerance of cultural differences? Probably the most important.

This is just my 2 pesos. Your mileage may vary.

Panabud
  9/13/2016 10:41 EST

USA is amazing with lots to see and do. 50 states each with its own personality and micro climate. Even culturally you can go to places like Miami to get your Latin fill. Or any of the China towns, little Italy's etc. Very few places in the world you can ski and surf within a 2 hour drive. So many iconic destinations to see and experience. If that bores you well then that's too bad for you. Visiting other countries is great for a short period and then fatigue sets in. All the creature comforts of home, just a simple smile and greeting from a cashier... how can I help you sir? or Have a great day! is a song to my ears. Just watching workers hustle and take their jobs seriously. Being able to walk freely in and out of stores or banks without armed guards staring you down. Not being chased by stray dogs or seeing dead animals decaying on the road. Not having to listen to the repetitive Latin 'music' thumping away at all hours or the roosters crowing early morning. Having water, electricity and internet that work reliably such that you can count on them without having backup. Roads that are well maintained and not pot holed up. Sidewalks. Pedestrian crosswalks that work and bike lanes. No burning of trash or the sight of trash everywhere. Not having to drive behind an old car spewing black smoke. Oh the list goes on and on. Why would anyone want to down grade their lifestyle? Tolerating for a short while, yes but long term... no.

Panabud
  9/13/2016 10:53 EST

Let's not leave out the expats many of whom are on the run from the law and/or failed back home. Running from pending doom that they swear will happen imminently. So they jump from a warm pot to the frying pan. No thanks, done with that crowd.

guestuser
  9/13/2016 10:54 EST

I think the point on cultural differences and adopting to the lifestyle are exactly right. Living any place isn't just about the weather or the cost of rentals it's about the culture. I've never quite understood why people think that ranting about how (generally inefficient) the culture is has any value. I wonder if the Thailand forum has postings about the monks failing to adopt and get the open carry concept?

Let's be frank - there are more than a few ex-pats who consider themselves just a little superior to the locals. If it's nothing more than 'how much better this place would be if it was more like the US' or comments about 'how lazy' the local populace are it's there. It even runs on subjects like taxes. And then there's 'why do I as a pensioner have to pay taxes here! After all I'm bringing money to the country. Look at all of the money I spend !'

People want to live here, but they want to live on their own terms and for the country to adopt to their model.

I also find it rather depressing this oft repeated phrase that anyone who says that living in Colombia has been a good choice for them is either 'delusional' or someone in Real Estate. So, the argument is we either won't admit our mistakes, or we're just saying positive things for our own economic benefit. Read this thread and it's 'If you're happy today just wait until tomorrow. Look back to the violence of the past, or look forward the the future (a repeat of Venezuela). Colombia might have made progress (maybe) but don't expect it to continue!'

The main part of the ex-pats down here are single male US retirees. What's the alternate solution for them like returning to the US?

Well, firstly if they need to rent (or even if they don't real estate taxes) in the US are going to be a real wake up call. Forget about $250 a month rentals in reasonable areas; forget about saying the Poblado is exorbitant. People who have been unhappy with their medical care here - look at what's happened to the system in the US. Cost of living, going to the supermarket? Well, if there will be plenty to complain about when you return. Political instability. Well 50% of Americans are going to be pretty unhappy come November and has that nation ever been as polarized?

And increasingly the US is for the rich and the young. The old don't matter. How are those Social Security increases coming along? What about the talk of Social Security being an 'entitlement' rather than a reflection of people paying in their money over the years? What about the job adverts that focus on people needing 'energy' (shorthand for only under 30s need apply). Is being a greeter at Walmart your only career opportunity.

Here ex-pats who came in search of the ladies can complain that their barely out of high school 'girlfriends' need to be watched carefully lest they steal the family fortune. In the US girls in their twenties are going to consider you 'gramps' and nothing more. But then you'll have plenty of time to complain about the women in the US who, like you, have grown older and a little rounder around the middle.

I understand that several of the posters on here may have had bad experiences in the past in Colombia. Equally they may have found out that Colombia wasn't for them. But for those who've left and post negatively about the country what's the agenda? In the same way that you'll say a Realtor has an agenda to make Colombia seem 'rosy' what's the purpose of 'when I lived in Colombia it was awful and I couldn't wait to leave'? To warn people who might be thinking of coming to live here? As some sort of retribution against the country or ex-pats who could make it work? It's never 'I couldn't adopt to Colombia', it's rather 'Colombia didn't adapt to me'.

The overwhelming number of posts on this thread are negative and in some form of democracy that probably suggest that more rather than less fail to adapt to Colombia or feel that it's charms are overdone. Equally, others like me, may have been reading the overwhelming tsunami of 'bad experiences' and felt that there was little our own experiences could do to halt the tide.

The truth is that negatives exist. Let's take the emotional one - tax. In the end ex-pats don't get a tax break here. How bad that is depends on your financial situation and how you can construct your world wide income from a Colombian point of view. Posting on this forum isn't going to change it. Saying that it's egregious and biased provides no relief. In the end if you are thinking of living in Colombia then do your homework first. If you don't like how your numbers come out - then don't come!

Lastly on safety. This is a country with a big divide between rich and poor. And you as a Gringo are rich - or at least assumed to be. Because you probably look a little different you don't need to wear a Boss suit and wear a Rolex for the locals to think you have money. So you need to be more careful. Live in a better area and perhaps you'll be safer. Drink your booze to excess in the security of your own house rather than outside and you'll be safer. But if you're going to live abroad it's no different than most other places you'd choose in the region.

guestuser
  9/13/2016 11:03 EST

'Let's not leave out the expats many of whom are on the run from the law and/or failed back home.'

I do hope that's just a troll.

Or are we now upping the definition of happy expats to be one of 'delusional, realtors, criminals on the lam , or one of life's failures'

.Are they exclusive sets or can delusional criminals with no money in the bank also be realtors?

testolas
  9/13/2016 11:30 EST

You are so right

testolas
  9/13/2016 11:30 EST

You are so right

testolas
  9/13/2016 11:30 EST

You are so right

guestuser
  9/13/2016 12:16 EST

@briloop - struggling with that example a little I'm afraid.

You know of a European who lives in the North and has (significantly) overstayed his tourist visa and therefore you've guessed that he's running from the law. Perhaps he's a light skinned European who doesn't take the sun well and prefers to stay inside; it's about as likely as your theory.

You've also deduced that 'many of the expats in Medellin could be on the run from the law'; isn't that a bit of a leap?

Then you expand it to suggest that this one example may support the theory that other ex-pats likely failed at home. How does your example support that? He failed in that he was a criminal who escaped capture?


My guess is that a fair few ex-pats might be on the run from their ex-wives and that more than a few alimony payments might be somewhat overdue but I'm not convinced that DB Cooper or the remaining Great Train Robbers are living in Poblado.

Bobfrozen1
  9/13/2016 12:27 EST

Excellent post. One of the best I have read!!!

Sometimes its us not the place we live.

bigjailerman
  9/13/2016 12:40 EST

Jason, I'm happy to read your postings. Don't care one iota that others may pooh pooh on your dreams and what you ate experiencing. It's life like that anywhere. If things get sour, be honest with yourself and move on to whatever sparks your mind.

BlueSeas
  9/13/2016 13:05 EST

Perhaps it's because we've lived most of our lives inside the box, and for some of us there is a keen interest in knowing what lies outside the box. Some choose to crawl back inside the box, others find another spot outside. Or some like us keep a foot in both. But to say the only reason to leave the box is a compelling failure somewhere...I disagree.

JasonWriter
  9/13/2016 13:07 EST

There's a lot of truth to the axiom: happy people tend not to obsess over flame wars in internet forums.

I write for online publications. I was in Mississippi finishing my grad degree. Ole Miss. Great grad school but boring town.

Panabud
  9/13/2016 13:14 EST

It's not about boxes but quality of life and the fact we all have limited time on this earth to enjoy it.

guestuser
  9/13/2016 13:15 EST

The reality is that most of us encounter some level of failure in our lives. I know from some of your other postings that you're a big Trump fan. Wouldn't he be by your definition be a failure (failed marriages, failed businesses, hates the current government)? Now my intent is not to make this a pro or anti Trump post but it's just a point that if you've not experienced one of those 'failures' in your life then you're something of an exception. As you are so keen to say 'just keeping it real'. And for the record my 'failure' was a divorce. Yours?

'No one would voluntarily give up the first world for the third world'. People retiring from first world countries and going to third world countries isn't exactly a new phenomena - but you need to get ready that it's going to increase. For many baby boomers travel is something of a drug, and their idea of retirement isn't always about waking up every morning in Milwaukee. Those retirees aren't escaping anything in particular other than wanting to spend retirement years in somewhere interesting.

I know quite a few of the ex-pats in Medellin. Because of the attractions of the ladies we may have a few more rough diamonds than most. Some are real characters. Several probably weren't Sunday school teachers or spend their days doing flower arranging. Some may have some peccadilloes in their past but so what. What is it 30% of Americans at some point have been arrested. Is the suggestion that Colombia in letting some of those in is a den of thieves? DIU? Some issue when they were young? Unpaid parking fines?

The only thing that offends me is the gross generalization. 'Most ex-pats couldn't make it in their host countries? 'From what I've seen the majority of the ex-pats here are the adventurers in life, the risk takers, not the sort of people who worked in the same office for 40 years and then called it quits. So, as I say, they're not all choir boys (or girls) but the argument that this is some sort of open prison for the failures in life is pretty thin.

testolas
  9/13/2016 13:36 EST

Bob you are right

JasonWriter
  9/13/2016 16:38 EST

Obviously I'm still in the honeymoon phase, JonRod. I took great pains to make sure it was clear I'd only been here a few months, and that "I love it here, at this point." At this point.

Of course things will normalize over time. It does not take a detective to realize that after only a few months, a person is still on a pink cloud of sorts. But I spent a few months in Peru once, and I was unhappy with it after a few weeks. Medellin, as I wrote, I still love, at this point. I wasn't pretending to be a wise old expat in Colombia with the definitive take on life here. Or a miserable old expat with a penchant for trolling. I would not try to impersonate you, JonRod

BrandonBP
  9/13/2016 19:20 EST

"I was in Mississippi finishing my grad degree. Ole Miss. Great grad school but boring town." -Jason Writer
==========================
You sir, are out of your head. The best four years of my life were at Ole Miss, and I've had some pretty damn great years since.

Ole Miss has the best tailgate parties anywhere. They have the most beautiful campus in the USA and the most beautiful students so says Newsweek Magazine. And, between drinking and parties, I didn't learn a damn thing. Now THAT's some serious college! I drank for four years straight and remember some of it.

The only problem I had with Ole Miss was that I was a poor Marine on GI bill, scholarship, and student loans, while it seems every other kid was the son/daughter of a US senator, congressman, billionaire, etc.

But I still love Oxford and Ole Miss. Such a beautiful small Southern town.

briloop
  9/13/2016 21:13 EST

Hey Jason, do you write any fiction?

JasonWriter
  9/14/2016 09:27 EST

Or Oron, ha, I feel you. But I was 32 when I entered Ole Miss grad school (worked for 10 years after undergrad) and had quit drinking by that point. So the Ole Miss experience wasn't nearly the same sans alcohol and Greek life. I was teaching too.

Briool: I mostly write nonfiction and creative nonfiction.

And to address JonRod's completely uninformed and unsubstantiated attack on my girlfriend: she is not a " poor, minimum wage-earning girl living in Robledo." She lives in Laurelea, and works at an attorney's office during the week, and as a manager at a tour guide company on the weekends. I understand that your experience with Colombianas is likely limited to poor young prepago girls and a Colombian ex-wife who, despite your claims, likely walked out on you due to your clearly insufferable and bellicose personality. Did you assault her as viciously as you regularly attack the kind people in this forum? Maybe you're right in your opinion that the US is vastly superior to Colombia: the police would have sided with her in the States when they showed up at your door.

jonrod888
  9/14/2016 10:18 EST

Jason, I hope you have a back-up career since your writting is rather boring, predictable and lacks creativity. You wrote that your girlfriend works for a real estate agency and lives in Robledo ... you even thought of moving up there. You were looking for an apartment and now miraculously a "friend" of yours happens to be moving and you can take over his beautiful apartment. Friends, girlfriends, a beautiful life in paradise ... fiction. I don't need to defend my life since it's personal ... but those like you who have to build self esteem fictionally on the internet should be attacked and have to defend yourself.

briloop
  9/14/2016 10:25 EST

My wife and I left Colombia for a variety of reasons, one of which was something that is not typically found in the U.S.: payment of protection money.

My wife and I did a lot of apartment hunting when we lived in Medellin. During a visit to a vacant apartment in Sabaneta in 2014, we met the owner, a gringo, from Florida. At the time of our meeting, the gringo had been living in Colombia since 2006, and owned two apartments: one he lived in, and the other he rented out. We talked for about 15 minutes and exchanged phone numbers.

Several weeks later, my wife and I visited with the gringo for two hours in the apartment in which he lives. During that conversation, the gringo told us that it is not unusual in the Medellin area (and perhaps in other parts of Colombia) for property owners to pay protection money. I'm not saying everybody pays protection money. But, what I am saying is that, if you rent or buy a property in the Medellin area, and you pay what is called "administracion" or an administration fee, part of that fee might possibly go towards the payment of protection money.

So, whenever I read a post that someone lives in a safe neighborhood, maybe, just maybe, the reason for living in a safe neighborhood is that someone is paying protection money.

guestuser
  9/14/2016 11:00 EST

Well let's knock on the head the idea that the Admin fee may in some way a slush fund to ensure a 'safe' area.

It is true that as an apartment owner you pay a monthly admin fee, and that goes to the administrator - a company that runs the administrative account of the building

Each year apartment owners get a full set of accounts showing the monies paid in and the monies paid out. It's detailed and show the changes year on year.

Then there is a formal meeting where the accounts are reviewed and discussed with the apartment owners and the administrators. Being Colombia it's generally turned into something of a social occasion.

Changes in bigger items (for example the renewal of the building insurance) are notified to the apartment owners as and when they happen - showing the materials received from the company involved.

Now, as no one likes paying charges like Admin (that's the same the world over) the discussion on the charges tends to be pretty detailed. The meeting for our building took nearly three hours last year as people were looking how to get costs down. The increase incidentally was around inflation - just people looking for savings.

Now if there are payments hidden in those accounts (perhaps as part of pool maintenance or gardeners) they're hidden pretty well - and they would suggest that any crime syndicate is getting very rich from our building.

In our specific case as a very senior politician lives in the building there are often police motorcycles in our forecourt waiting to escort him. So it's going to be a pretty brave crime syndicate that's going to take on the police presence. In the better areas people have influence. Another reason for ex-pats to consider living in better areas rather than just focusing on the cheapest solution.

We also own (within the family) several other apartments and houses in the Medellin area, including a large Finca. We pay no protection money on any of them. We also own a farm in an area that (from time to time) can be a little 'iffy' and we've not been approached for any protection money on that either.

Do any situations with protection money exist? Of course. But this idea that safe areas in Medellin are based on the payment of protection money is ludicrous.

guestuser
  9/14/2016 11:02 EST

'any crime syndicate IS'NT getting very rich'

jonrod888
  9/14/2016 11:48 EST

"Vacuna" is alive and well in Colombia. Do a search on Google because many articles have been written up on it. Most businesses in Central pay, most people in the poorer barrios pay, a lot of parcellations in the rural areas pay. Someone wrote on this forum of paying for protection on a business in Parque Lleras. A few years ago I believe 3 people were killed in a Barbosa parcellation for refusing to pay. Built into an Administration fee ... highly doubt that.

jonrod888
  9/14/2016 11:55 EST

Here's one article.


http://www.semana.com/nacion/articulo/seguridad-medellin-en-el-80-de-los-barrios-hay-extorsion/459948

guestuser
  9/14/2016 12:12 EST

Of the apartments we have three are in Centro - family investments from when it used to be the place to live! No protection on those.

I won't disagree that in the poorer barrios (and even in El Centro) and out in the countryside there's more of a likelihood. I also agree that it's not likely to be in the Admin costs. Protection on a business in Lleras. Maybe. Wouldn't be the first place in the world a bar or restaurant got shaken down.

But the posting that was made suggesting that the reason that areas might be 'safer' is that protection was hidden in the administration. What that poster was trying to do was take a truth (protection money exists) and 'just saying' twist it around. Someone comes looking for an apartment down here and the idea has been planted in their mind that when the realtor gets around to the Admin charge it's a cover for protection money.

It's a little like stating 'everyone knows there are crack dens in Florida' so' if you buy an apartment in Boca Raton maybe the apartment next door to you might be one. Just saying'

.

briloop
  9/14/2016 13:30 EST

90% of small businesses in Medellin pay extortion:

http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/few-escape-extortion-medellin-colombia

briloop
  9/14/2016 13:31 EST

Bus drivers pay extortion in Medellin:

http://www.insightcrime.org/investigations/extortion-bleeds-profits-medellin-bus-drivers

guestuser
  9/14/2016 13:39 EST

@briloop - you need to read and think beyond the headline. The article probably isn't inaccurate. But let's think about what it says

- 80% of barrios are affected. Is that by count of barrios? Well, most barrios in Medellin are working call or lower middle class. Think of it this way. In the US you could probably print in any city an article that said that in 80% of the precincts there were people living on the breadline. Does that mean that everyone in those precincts is on the breadline - or even the majority? No, it's just that there are instances of people being on the breadline in all but the best areas of town.

- the article says that 'thousands of businesses and families' have to pay. Now that isn't good, but note thousands - and the population of Medellin is something over 2 million. If it was 'hundreds of thousands' I'm sure it would say that. So the headline catches the eye, but the impact is somewhat less. That is most people don't suffer this. Newspapers do this all of the time, it's not just a Medellin thing.

- As in all crime the poor tend to prey on the poor. I've made several posts (and got truly flamed for them) for suggesting that ex-pats need to think beyond the cheapest possible accommodation. Note that in the article Laureles is mentioned (which I've often described as 'patchy') but I think you'll find a lot of contributors here who feel safe living there and who have yet to report armed men knocking on their door and asking for money.

- in the article (and it says it's a conservative estimate) the amount paid was said to be 9,244 million pesos. Now that sounds like a lot, right? But that's $3 million - across a population of 2 million people. A clear social issue but the numbers suggest (unless armed men are knocking on your door and demanding 5,000 pesos per person per year) probably not as widespread as the headline suggests.

So no secret other than where you can don't put your money on the riskier bets.

I'm not discounting the article, just suggesting for ex-pats that provided they do diligence it isn't a problem they should run into.

It's a little like using the murder rate in Medellin and not interpreting with the thought that many of the murders in town result from gang turf wars. If you're not a member of a gang, or hang around where the gangs do your risk isn't the same as the headline newspaper article, Is it nil? No. But where you are, what you do all has an impact on the statistic.

guestuser
  9/14/2016 14:03 EST

@briloop

You are busy aren't you! So, for any ex-pats thinking about bus driving here as a career (I'd recommend against it) the article is from 2012. It also uses language like 'in many parts of the city'. Want to bet that's in the poorer barrios?

The article on business extortion - in this case only two years old - is rather confusing. Firstly this as a news source isn't exactly CNN or the BBC. It definitely got a political agenda going. But let's read on. Firstly it uses the term 'small businesses' without describing what that is. Is it the man selling avocados on the street, the lady with the cell phones stapled to her waist or small shops (maybe up in the poorer barrios?). The source of the information is a business federation so how statical the information is questionable. The article, to add some credibility to what is a rather thin article then reaches back to a survey that someone did again in 2012 that was used in an El Colombia article. That article incidentally suggested that prostitutes were among those suffering extortion (big surprise right) along with the cell phone minute sellers. So, for the sake of this board the suggestion is that if any ex-pat is thinking about a career in either prostitution or selling cell phone minutes they're at great risk of extortion.

This is Latin America and it would be crazy to suggest that there isn't some extortion going on (if you want to stand on that corner and sell cell phone minutes - you got to pay the 'man') but trying to tie it back to your other posts again is really pushing things.

You do know that if you go on the internet you can find information, or surveys that will prove pretty much what you want?

Perhaps you should try reading more articles like this by a respected newspaper. It's from 2014 but it's balanced.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/apr/17/medellin-murder-capital-to-model-city-miracle-un-world-urban-forum

Note the statement - about the barrios

'Security analysts say such "micro-extortion" is rampant in Medellín, affecting everyone from shop owners and schoolchildren to bus and taxi drivers.'

Micro-extortion. Just like the mad guy on the street in the States who won't leave you alone unless you give him a dollar.

briloop
  9/14/2016 14:07 EST

I just love it when I read posts that rationalize away facts and pooh-pooh what is obviously a problem. Some people would call it denial.

BrandonBP
  9/14/2016 14:12 EST

"90% of small businesses in Medellin pay extortion:"
=================

That's unfortunate. And there's also an unfortunate explanation why that happens in Colombia and not in Mississippi?

Just think... You're a gangster and want to extort money from a business owner in Mississippi. What do you think will transpire right after the threats and the demand for money?

germuno
  9/14/2016 14:15 EST

Yep...denial of facts...adherent to conspiracies.
Find a lot of that with expats. Especially from single expats. That & from the stateside expats: obama is a manchurian candidate kenyan born muslim trained to bring the states down.

guestuser
  9/14/2016 14:55 EST

So to answer your question firstly I need to agree with your assertion that 'an extortionist shows up at my door (which is arguably not unlikely)' which I don't agree with.

How does this person show up at my door by the way? The guy at the gate calls me up and says 'there's a gunman here who'd like to come in and have a word with you? Shall I let him in?'

Then you make another leap that I've avoided paying extortion and therefore know of a way to avoid paying it.

You know that the reason I've never paid extortion is that I've never been asked for it. And nor has just about any other ex-pat who's been here.

But you want to keep the little game going of pretending that this is a big problem for ex-pats.

If I say I'm getting bored with your game you'll say 'Ha! he has no answers'

No, I'm just getting bored of this low level trolling.

jonrod888
  9/14/2016 14:56 EST

I know a Colombian family who lived in Medellin, not Poblado. Man showed up at their door and wanted money each month. They moved and a few months later the same man showed up and demanded a higher sum each month. They went to US and have not returned. Family has money, multiple properties and finca, still own everything and property is being taken care by friends.

jonrod888
  9/14/2016 15:20 EST

You have already forgotten about Andresen on this forum ... robbed, tied up and gun pointed at his head in his finca. Moved because they were sure the robbers would return in the future. Same as extortion, but scarier. All it takes is talk from a maid, porter or neighbors for someone to show up or wait for you to leave your secure compound.

guestuser
  9/14/2016 15:37 EST

I haven't forgotten about Andersen and regularly read his blog. You might want to go back and read my thoughts on whether he'd taken adequate security protection in the location that Finca was. Finca's are different to apartments - and you need to think a little more about security and spend a little money. Not that I'm not sympathetic about what happened to him, but it's no secret that not all areas are safe for ex-pats to live without some precautions.

So, one of my neighbors is going to tell the bad guys. Which one? The politician? The retired doctor? The Head of Technology at one of the major Banks in Medellin? The family patriarch with more money than you can believe. This is like Clue. And what'd the information that they're gong to tell the bad guys? Pssstttt.... there's a Gringo living in there....

And then the bad guy is going to stop me and threaten me on Calle 10 (one of the busiest thorough fares in the city) and outline how my apartment - and presumably just my apartment is going to be some way compromised. What's the plan for that? Neutralize the guys at the gate, storm the building, through the security door. Or perhaps your suggestion is that I'm going to be executed when I go out in the morning to the grocery store? That's probably it - a motor cycle just like in 'Clear and Present Danger'.


On your example of the Colombian who was threatened did they live in an apartment? If you'd spent any time in this city, or done any research there's a reason people with wealth live in apartments with security rather than in houses.

jonrod888
  9/14/2016 16:26 EST

Paradise, you have all the answers. Please be my mentor. Never said "you" were in any danger rubbing elbows with the elite. Yes, as you say it was Andresen's fault that he lived a quiet normal life and set himself up to be taken advantage of. He should have installed fencing with razor wire, security cameras and a guard. I'm sure your compound has all that and more. Nice safe country this is when you have to live inside a secured prison to be safe. If I recall just a few months ago there were 2 shootings in your area of Poblado ... one tourist shot in front of a few restaurants in Provincial while talking with someone and one motorist shot in a carjacking. And if you were around, there was a foreigner and wife tortured and robbed of 500,000,000 pesos he kept in a safe a few years ago ... obviously the robbers knew he had it there, not random. But you will have explanations for all of it.

canpandave
  9/14/2016 16:34 EST

Although not wanting to be dragged into this diatribe, I have an apartment, in Laureles and have never had to deal with extortion of any kind, at least there are 2 of us.....

briloop
  9/14/2016 16:35 EST

People living outside of Colombia read this forum to find out information. I'm sorry, but I don't like it when I see people posting things that paint a distorted picture of Medellin. Like, posting things about Medellin that make it out to be a bed of roses. Like you can have all the sex you want and drink all the cheap alcohol you want and pay cheap rent and buy cheap food, and yada yada yada. Believe it or not, there are people in Medellin who don't like it when outsiders view their city as a sex and party destination. How do I know? My wife and I lived in Medellin for 8 months. She is Colombian. We have Colombian relatives and friends in Medellin. We met a lot of people during our 8 months in Colombia, both Colombians and foreigners.

If somebody has the right to post things about Medellin while wearing rose-tinted glasses, then others have the right to point out what's wrong with their rose-tinted vision.

Just for the record, we lived across the street from Oviedo mall. Yes, we lived in estrato 6. We wanted convenience. We had two malls and three grocery stores within walking distance. And, yes, we paid for it. We didn't pay $240 a month in rent - it was much higher than that. And no, no one came to our door asking for money in exchange for security. In fact, during our 8 months we had no problems whatsoever, unless you want to count being caught in the rain. We had porteria at the entrance to our complex. There were politicians who lived in the apartment complex next to us. How do I know? Well, once in awhile, there would be a squad of Colombian soldiers outside that complex to escort a politician. Also, my wife's cousin worked in that complex and the cousin knew a lot of things that go on in that complex.

Just because we had no problems during our 8 months, that doesn't mean that there are no problems in Medellin. There are a lot.

And finally, for the record, I am not a troll.

Let the bashing begin.

Bobfrozen1
  9/14/2016 16:45 EST

briloop'

I hope no one bashes you. I liked your post I thought it was spot on. Very close to my experience here. I pay a premium to stay in a nice area that I feel comfortable in. I consider it safe but still I take precautions. And yes from my experience the Colombians are very much against the sex and drug scene. They correctly have the opinion that the city has much to offer besides sex tourism.

germuno
  9/14/2016 17:07 EST

I think you are pretty much right on loopy. But I'm pretty sure Bucaramanga is the best kept secret in Colombia.

jonrod888
  9/14/2016 17:52 EST

Some people must be really bored living in Medellin ... spending all day, writting pages of white papers on everything from politics, to banking, to how the poor get what they deserve on an internet forum. I would think these "rich" intellectuals would be busy consulting the president or mayor or at least at the country club or social club discussing how to solve the problems of the world. But wait we're in Medellin where there are only 2 country clubs (expensive member only) and no social clubs that I know of and if you're a Gringo they don't want you anyway. So for these intellectuals, I guess the only thing to do is stay secure in your guarded fortress and write on the internet to demonstrate how smart you are. Myself I'm bored but poor and writting from a free Wi-Fi location.

guestuser
  9/14/2016 18:17 EST

And you Jonrod what do you do? Seems as if you get your kicks basically insulting people. Jason yesterday, me today. No doubt someone else tomorrow.

Why did I spend time writing today? I think that's in some of my posts. There's been an absolute torrent from people like you recently filling the board up with 'Medellin's a bad place'. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but sometimes you should have to expect people to come on and put another view. White papers? Well, sometimes in an attempt to push back on the vast amount of 'issue' postings you have to spend time explaining why you think that the postings are incorrect, or at best a half truth. Take the often thrown out 'anyone who says that they like Medellin is just a delusional ex pat'. To respond to that properly - requires a little more work than it takes to say.. Look at the proposition (which you quickly ran to the defense of) that basically all property owners are shaken down. We both know that was rubbish, but it was another bonfire that you could try and get the smoke rising from to create the concept of an issue. I raised some issues about how conceptually this 'shake down' happens. All of you arm chair experts from the US couldn't answer that - but you were all sure it happened ALL of the time to EVERYONE.

Equally I don't understand why so many people seem to be taking so much time explaining why they need to 'warn' people about Medellin or 'stop the rosy views'. Sometimes I wonder what the stories really are about why people left. Personally I'm indifferent as to whether more or less people relocate here. But I do get a little tired of people basing their view on the Medellin housing market based on the last episode of Narcos they watched.

Lastly on the Country Clubs I'm surprised at the comments that they don't want Gringo's. When I'm next at the one on Poblado Avenue I'll ask them why they let me in. Perhaps they don't realize I'm a Gringo?

Or perhaps they just didn't want you?

Kee
  9/14/2016 20:20 EST

I enjoy reading about the pros and cons of living in Colombia even though whether or not to live here boils down to a personal decision, one that only the people involved can make.

I'm having trouble understanding why anyone gives a hoot what decision someone else makes. There are plenty of reasons to stay, go, or take a third option.

But then I remembered that some cannot handle cognitive dissonance (and the fact that someone else, faced with the same facts, may make a different decision).

I also by happenstance read a quote of the day on a website that seemed relevant, referring to Puritanism: PURITANISM: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

Do what works for you, which may not work for me.

julianat
  9/15/2016 07:43 EST

I for one like the place and have not felt my safety threatened in the four years I have lived in Medellin. And I live alone. My cats like it too. I have a friend who lives in a family home in one of those barrio places. They happily pay 15,000 per week to their neighborhood "extortionist" because he offers them better protection than their local police. Another lives in the North End of Boston and pays her local "extortionist" as do all of the neighbors she knows. My skis were yanked out of my car ski rack in front of her building while hers sat safely in her rack. She made a call and within the half hour the skis were available in her back yard. So this Big Deal about "extortionism" is the way business is done in many localities all over the world. Many subscribers to this system actually find it more useful than trying to obtain police help. Try that in the barrios. You will find the police as attentive to your needs as they are when they are standing on the street corner watching the traffic jam getting worse.

jonrod888
  9/15/2016 08:47 EST

Julianat, you are absolutely correct. From the poor to the rich, from the street vendor to the elite politicians there are payoffs and corruption. That's the system in Colombia. Colombians accept it and live a reasonable life as long as they have money and the poor do the best they can and try to make every day as pleasant as possible. This system works as long as people have control ... gangs in the barrios and politicians for the elite. When there is a struggle for control at any level, heads start rolling ... people shot in the barrios and politicians in prison for corruption but the system continues with new players. If you accept this, you can have a reasonably pleasant and inexpensive life in Colombia. Work the system and you can make reasonable money and be accepted by the controlling forces but make a mistake and you'll be like many other foreigners that you read about in the newspapers killed or arrested. No different than the US many years ago with the Mafia and the corrupt politicians and yes the same in many cities around the world. So no matter who you deal with, people are always looking for a way to get extra from you ... not knowing is called papaya or Gringo/naive tax. And, yes, this doesn't happen 100% of the time to 100% of the people but it's a high proportion.

PapayaPuesta
  9/15/2016 09:10 EST

Just curious. What part of Columbia do you live in? What makes the workforce that supports your business so unreliable? Just trying to learn so I can avoid any mistakes. Thanks so much.

WhoaNellie
  9/15/2016 09:48 EST

"Just curious. What part of Columbia do you live in? "

I think it must be the District of Columbia - it is dangerous, and many people there are unreliable.

timllowe
  9/15/2016 09:59 EST

@Whoa - Now, there's no need to insult the host country. But I have always smiled when I see "D.C" behind "Bogota."

WhoaNellie
  9/15/2016 13:13 EST

Ja Ja the District of Columbia is quite far away from Bogotá D.C. (Distrito Capital)...

I have no insults for Colombia, on the whole I think highly of the people and the country!

LaPiranha
  9/15/2016 21:11 EST

Ha Ha. I though WhoaNellie was talking about Washington DC, (District of Columbia). The description fits ...... dangerous, and many people there are unreliable ..... (thinking of politicians especially).

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Healthcare in ColombiaHealthcare in Colombia

Our guide to healthcare in Colombia covers public and private healthcare in Colombia, hospitals, vaccinations, prescription medications and more.

Cost of Living in ColombiaCost of Living in Colombia

Expats offer insight into the cost of living in Colombia.

Moving to ColombiaMoving to Colombia Guide

With its bustling cities, beautiful beaches and friendly Colombians, Colombia is an increasingly popular destination for expats of all ages. Expats in Colombia offer insightful tips for those moving to Colombia.

Real Estate in ColombiaReal Estate in Colombia

Real estate listings in popular cities and towns in Colombia.

Pros Cons of Living in ColombiaPros & Cons of Living in Colombia

Take off your rose-colored glasses and learn what expats have to say about the biggest challenges and the greatest rewards of living in Colombia.

Retiring in ColombiaRetiring in Colombia

Advice for people retiring in Colombia.

10 Tips for Living in Colombia10 Tips for Living in Colombia

If you've recently arrived in Colombia, here are 10 tips for digital nomads living in Colombia.

Allianz Care
Allianz Care

Flexible solutions allow you to tailor your cover to meet your needs and budget. Use Promocode: LIFE10 and get 10% off your international health insurance for life!
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Allianz CareAllianz Care

Flexible solutions allow you to tailor your cover to meet your needs and budget. Use Promocode: LIFE10 and get 10% off your international health insurance for life!
Get Quote

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Help others in Colombia by answering questions about the challenges and adventures of living in Colombia.

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