It depends on where you want to live. If you want to live in Paris and rent a large apartment it would cost considerably more. But most of France live reasonably well on much less than that. It also depends on your lifestyle, how many in your family and their ages. A teenager could manage to cost that on their own. A couple on their own, who like to stay home and cook as opposed to a family of four who like to eat out often. Then€3000 sounds pretty good.

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It is impossible to answer that question without knowing what you define as 'comfortable' and for how many adults, children.

Some people are happy with what others would consider very basic housing. Some people are happy eating rice and pasta and never seeing a steak. There aren't just a 'few variables' markdfink, there are a LOT of variables and unless you define YOUR variables, having someone say, 'yeah, I can live comfortably on that' or 'no, it can't be done', is meaningless.

What you can do however is look at cost of living comparison sites such as https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living

Just bear in mind, they only compare what they say they are comparing. Cost of living does not equate to Quality of Living. So while a place might cost less, it might also provide a lower quality of life at the same time. Cost of Living for example doesn't really tell you if a hospital is clean, has adequate staff and equipment. Or if the internet service sucks, etc.

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Thanks for the replies, and my apologies for not being more specific. It would be just my wife and myself, and we are looking at the Pezenas region in the south of France.

Our definition of comfortable is a 2-3 bedroom house, (must have room for all our American guests who can't wait to visit us if we move to France!), a pool, and at least 1/4 acre of property.

We go out to dinner once, maybe twice a week here, (here being about 90 minutes north of New York City), are nearly vegetarian, (I'll eat anything you put on the plate in front of me, but I'm not having lobster every meal either), and enjoy a glass or two of wine and the occasional gin tonic.

The goal is for my wife to be able to retire in about three years, while I would be semi-retired, doing remote US based IT consulting and getting my New York State pension. I'm also ramping up my photography business, (www.northernlight.net and www.virtual-travels.com). As you will see from the images, we like to spend our vacations in Europe, with an emphasis on France. :o)

Let me know if any other details would help in answering my question.

Thanks again,

Mark

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Well did you try the comparison site I gave you to see how things compared?

For example you can compare Albany to Montpellier although the amount of data they have to work with is noted as limited.
https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/albany/montpellier

From that it would appear that they are roughly equal (2% difference). If you then convert the 3000E you are talking about to current US$ equivalent of $3300, you know whether you could live on $3300 where you are now or not.

But that still will not give you the whole picture. Suppose you insist on having Skippy peanut butter in your home or other specific items. What they cost in France will be far different than what they cost you now. Comparison sites are always based on the assumption that when in Rome you will do as the Romans do and that is sometimes not what someone from outside Rome wants to do. Get my drift?

You also have to factor in the exchange rate on your US derived income. Obviously, it will vary and a lot of people have come to grief by not allowing enough for that. In our own case, we have seen swings in the UK/Canada exchange vary by up to 25% during the last 10 years. Someone making a move based on having just enough to live on, cannot cope with those kinds of swings. You need a cushion in your finance plans that you would never have had to think about if you stayed in the US.

In general, I'd say if you will have enough to continue living where you are now, you will probably have enough to live in France but there will always be some uncertainties regarding how well you will be able to live. Eating out may have to take a hit in a bad year or that visit home may have to wait till another time. If on the other hand, you only live on half your current income and could expect to live on half in France, then you should have no problems. It's all about how close to the bone are you cutting things.

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(Warning - this is a long reply...)

Thanks for the link - I had actually chosen the same city pairs that you had - what are the odds!

The 2% difference was encouraging, but as you say, just part of the picture. You raise a very good point about Jiffy peanut butter, or the mindset behind it. In my view, moving to France is all about living like the French, at least as much as possible, otherwise, I fail to see the point in moving to a different culture.

Two items that I think (hope!) will be quite different are property/school taxes and health insurance. At the moment, we spend $10,000 per year on our property/school taxes. We don't own a McMansion - New York is just crazy expensive when it comes to taxes.

My health insurance is 100% covered by my employer now, but when I retire, they would only cover 30%. Considering the policy costs just over $23,000, that would mean I would be responsible for about $16,000. Could I get less expensive health insurance upon retirement? Certainly, but this isn't a Cadillac plan, so I don't know how much I could really save. Plus, going with my own plan would mean my employer wouldn't cover any of it. They only contribute to one of their own plans.

So, if I want to retire early at the age of 55 in 2019, then I can't afford to stay in New York. If I'm faced with having to relocate AND I'm already thinking seriously of moving to France, then it is one more check in the plus column for France as opposed to another state in the US. However, I'd still be facing the same health insurance premiums in another state. The other option is to continue working another 15 years to reach the point where my employer pays 80% of my premiums, but then I still am facing the property/school taxes if we stay in New York...

If property/school taxes are significantly lower and we can get less expensive health insurance, (from what I've read, France is consistently rated as having the best overall health care in the world), then that could reduce our living costs perhaps by as much as $20,000. That is a significant savings.

I appreciate your point about currency fluctuations - that is something I hadn't taken into account. I can see how that could be devastating. At the moment, we are on the happy side of that equation - with the strong dollar, real estate is nearly 20% less expensive than it was just a few years ago. Plus, with 2% mortgages, (compared to 3.5% here), the single biggest expense could be significantly lower as well. Will it still be that way in a few years? Who knows.

Thanks again!

Mark

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Well, I think you are getting too far ahead of yourself Mark. You are getting lost in the trees and can't see the forest as they say.

I suggest you read this thread for a start: http://www.expatexchange.com/expat/index.cfm?frmid=260&tpcid=3407026

I find that people often post questions in forums based on various assumptions. They ask what seems like a simple question, 'can we live on 3000E per month?', which only requires a yes or no answer. But it assumes they have asked the RIGHT question and since it is based on various assumptions, it MAY not be the right question at all. My favourite analogy is someone asking for directions to the edge of a cliff. The directions may be easy for someone to give but it would be far better to ask, 'why do you want to go there?' and based on the answer to that, the real question that should be answered may become far different. Like, 'jumping is not a good solution to your problem, I suggest trying something else.'

In this case, as I read what you have written, you are looking for a lower cost place to retire. You like the idea of France but have never lived there. You have a couple of years to work on where to go and are sensibly starting your research now. If I have got that all right, then to me the first question you should be asking and answering is 'where can I legally get residence?' There is no use asking about places where you cannot. Next might be, 'I like the idea of France, can I get residence there given my circumstances?' France doesn't have a 'retirement visa' as some countries do but do have a 'long stay visa' which serves the same purpose and can be converted to Residency after a year. You just have to fulfill the criteria which I think you probably can.

So your retirement date (or your wife's in this case) arrives and you fly to France on that visa which gives you one year to begin with. Now can you see where you might not be wanting to talk about taxes and health insurance just yet?

You would rent for that year and look around. Many people move a couple of times within their first year. Noisy neighbours, nosy landlord, quieter street, etc. You would have bought health insurance to cover you for that year but you will not be involved in the government healthcare system yet.

So you found an area you like and at the end of the year are ready (or not) to take the next step.

As you will see on the thread on Where to Retire, I am an advocate of NEXT. I don't see retirement as an end or looking at where to live as a 'for rest of your life' decision that has to be made. All you have to decide is where do you want to try living NEXT. You may decide to stay there for the rest of your life and you may not but if you look at it from the perspective of NEXT, it changes a lot of questions and it doesn't have any of that 'I must get it right' viewpoint. There is no wrong answer for NEXT, there is only an answer that may last a longer or shorter time than you thought it might.

You and your wife will be reasonably financially sound when she reaches her retirement age judging by what you have written here. So you will be free to move and France is as good a start as anywhere if you can get legally residency and it appeals to you. Go ahead and go and see how it works out.

You may have to reduce your standard of housing or not, taxes, healthcare, etc. certainly won't be more than you pay now and probably a lot less almost anywhere you picked. So yeah, you can afford to make the move to France and take it from there. You really only need a general idea of can you afford it or not and you've already got that with the site showing roughly a 2% difference. You don't need details.

I guess what I am saying really is don't sweat the small stuff. I know that if a couple have an income of say $40K plus, there are plenty of countries they can afford to live in. I'd move to France with that income but I'd be happier moving with $50k or $60k. What I would not want to do is move with $20-30k. As long as you have a reasonable cushion of income so that your living costs are not cutting too close to the bone, the income is not the big issue. Whether you will STICK or not is the real issue. Some do and some don't but there is no way to know that before you try. So you go, see how it works out and if it goes well you stay and if it doesn't you think about where's NEXT.

So my advice is if you like the idea of a country, ballpark the income needed, see if you can get legal residency and then give it a try.

Sorry for rambling a bit with this. I just have so many thoughts trying to get out at the same time. ;-)

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I really appreciate your thoughtful and detailed responses! I especially like your concept of NEXT. It take a bit of the pressure off regarding "getting it right - forever". Thanks also for the link to the "Where to Retire" thread. That has been excellent reading.

Some background on myself - when I was two, my family moved just outside of Geneva for three years, then we were in Paris for three years. So, technically, I have lived in France, however, living someplace as a child with all my needs and worries covered by my parents is radically different than moving there as an adult with the attendant responsibilities. So, in that sense, no, I haven't lived in France.

I was in Paris two years ago for a couple days attending a conference, and was surprised by my lack of enthusiasm for the city where I had once lived. Part of that was likely due to it being a business trip, but it was for my photography business, getting together with a bunch of like-minded camera nerds, so it wasn't a required attendance sort of thing. What I found really interesting was the next five days which I spent in Bordeaux. It was like night and day! The people were not just friendlier, they were borderline exuberant. I was striking up conversations with locals, (in French), at restaurants and in backyards as I wandered about taking photos. It was at that point that I started thinking about retiring to France.

One year later, I was back in France for two weeks. The first week was solo for me, as my wife wasn't able to get two weeks off. She joined me for the second week on Corsica. The first week was spent wandering around between La Ciotat and Pezenas. What can I say, I felt more and more like this could be a great place to move to next. Pezenas in particular just jumped off the page for me. So, the initial motivation to retire to France was a sense of being drawn by the people I met as well as the culture and countryside. It has only been the last couple of months while doing research that I discovered it could be as affordable, (if not more so), than where we are now.

I was encouraged by your "Where to Retire" thread that I was doing some things right. The plan is to first make several two week trips during the next three years to explore areas in greater detail, then rent someplace for at least six months if not a year. Long enough for the honeymoons to wear off. I use the plural, because it would be both the newly retired honeymoon as well as the shiny new place honeymoon.

We will be in the Pezenas area for the last two weeks of September on a combination vacation/30th anniversary/scouting trip. When we were making these plans, I suggested to my wife that when we are there, we try to get in the mindset of living there, as opposed to a two week vacation. We'll see how that turns out.

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I am not currently living in France, but have considered buying a small property for retirement because my daughter lives there and is married to a Frenchman. I have started learning the language and have looked at properties available online.

From what I have found online and knowing what my kids have paid for rental properties prior to buying, I would say that you will likely have to step down in your standard of living to make it on $40,000 a year. Finding a 3 bedroom home that's "comfortable " and having the flexibility to eat out several times per week, would be difficult. The further south you get, the harder it will be. So, if your vision is living in Provence with a pretty little villa, it probably is not in the cards.

Do some research online. There are lots of sites where you can browse properties for sale or rent in various areas. The pictures will give you some idea of what you can get for the money. But, keep in mind that gas is very expensive, meals out also. WiFi is rarely available in public places, though in most places, unless super rural, you can get fairly reliable phone and Internet service for your home. Kitchens are generally very small, bathrooms also, many places with only one. It's a different lifestyle, one i really like, but different.

Since I have family in France, my visits there have allowed me to be included in family and friends get-togethers. I've been going over a couple times a year for the last 5 years. My daughter and her husband (who is my age) enjoy entertaining in their home and going to others' homes. They may eat out a few times a month but not a few times a week. They are currently living in a small community in Brittany. My daughter teaches English and French online and in the community. Individuals who cannot speak French feel pretty isolated, with friendship opportunities limited to other expats.

I would do more homework, take some longer term trips, renting a car and traveling the country in more than one season to see what appeals to you. Stop into an immoblier office (realtor ) and see what is available for what price in an area that interests you.

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Mark, you will not be able to access French health care coverage. You will be required to show international coverage as part of a long term visa.

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I think you are on the right track Mark, it's just a question of taking it one step at a time and if you and your wife can embrace the idea of 'next', there is no wrong decision.

Regarding trying to 'live there', you might want to do some Googling for 'slow travel' which is about exactly that idea. The part of it my wife does not appreciate is cooking meals while on vacation. That's a no-no for her. But we generally 'slow travel' with that exception.

Almost everywhere is great when you are on vacation and for that reason, while 2 week trips can give you a bit of a feel for an area, they can't get you past the honeymoon phase. I don't think even 6 months can. But again, you have to start somewhere and take it one step at a time.

To stay 6 months you will need to get a long-stay visa anyway and it is good for a year so you might want to consider leaving the time open ended rather than fixing it. One detail you will need to consider is health insurance. Obviously, you will need to buy private travel insurance to cover you but that isn't actually really expensive at all. As an American, you will also have to consider your home healthcare coverage. I'm not an American, I'm Canadian but I do know that in the past an issue that arises has been leaving the USA and letting your coverage there lapse. The issue that arises is 'pre-existing conditions'. If for example you find out while away that you have MS or have a heart attack etc., when you return to the USA and apply to re-new coverage, insurers will not insure you for that now 'pre-existing condition'. If coverage was maintained while you were absent for a year, that issue doesn't come up obviously. I do understand that some changes to that have been made as part of Obama Care though so you may want to see what is current in that regard.

I haven't been to Pezenas although I have spent a considerable amount of time in France over the years including my longest stay of just under 6 months in Antibes. There are many places in France I think I could live happily and in fact my wife and I were considering a move to Langres before our last move. It is a walled town that sits up on a plateau.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=langres+france&biw=942&bih=449&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwi396i97ObNAhUF54MKHXhqDkQQsAQILg

Another favourite of ours is Aigueze which sits above the Ardeche river. It's north of Nimes and might be daytrippable from Pezenas if you are renting a car.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=aigueze&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiIh6CP7ObNAhVs4oMKHTLxCbsQsAQIHA&biw=942&bih=449

We also like the Alsace region a lot and the villages on the Route des Vins are certainly photogenic.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=alsace+route+des+vins&biw=942&bih=449&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjMm_nG7ebNAhUJ7oMKHVp5AAgQsAQIKA

The choice is endless really and can make choosing a real problem. ;-)

You mentioned Geneva, Paris and Corsica. I am not a fan of Paris simply because of its size. I prefer small towns and even villages even when on vacation. I also understand your comment re the difference in the people.

Switzerland is in fact the favourite country to visit, of both my wife and myself. I've spent perhaps a total of 2 years in Switzerland on trips of just a few days to a few months. Some years ago when living in Scotland, I surprised my wife with a 4 day trip to Geneva for Valentine's Day. Even though she has been to most parts of Switzerland for longer periods, she still talks about that particular visit. Coincidently, to your September plans, we plan to visit the Engadine region of Switzerland during the first 2 weeks of September.

I've only visited Corsica once and that was on a sailing trip (as in on a sailboat). We spent 2 weeks cruising the west coast from Bonifacio to Calvi. I could see living there for a while with no complaints.

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This exchange has particular interest for me, as I've lived in France near the Swiss border with Geneva for the past 20 years. I've now retired and am relocating to cheaper areas of France, since the presence in Geneva of many international organizations strongly influences the cost of living in surrounding areas. An example: for the cost of renting a one-bedroomed flat near Geneva I can rent a two- to three-bedroomed house in many other areas of France. Food, entertainment and restaurants are correspondingly more expensive.

Good luck with your research.

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Thanks MikiB! From what I've seen and read, the Languedoc region seems to be less expensive than the Cote d'Azur and perhaps less touristy. I'll keep you posted on our progress.

Mark

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Lindesu - I had done some research on this last year and found this site: http://www.acs-ami.com/en/acs/ami_expatfrguarantees. Have you had any experience with them?

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OldPro - I like the slow travel movement. It really suits how we like to take our vacations. That's why we use Home Exchange almost exclusively. We don't mind grocery shopping and fixing our own meals, but still go out to eat more often than when at home. Our approach is to stay in one area for the two weeks, doing day trips or just kicking back and relaxing. I'm the polar opposite of a cousin of mine who never stays more than two nights in any one place and packs the itinerary from dawn until dusk. I get exhausted just reading the Christmas letter with the details of all the places they saw...

I hadn't thought of the possible health insurance dilemma while on an extended stay. If we continue our US coverage, we'll be paying out $16,000 and not getting any benefit from it. If I recall from earlier research, there is insurance available for around $5,000 for two people per year from third party insurers. I did find out that as a retiree from my job, I am allowed to leave and rejoin the insurance coverage whenever I want, (on an annual basis), but I'm not sure about your point regarding any new health conditions that might arise while we are off the US policy. I'll check into that.

Thanks for the links to the places you've visited in France. Antibes and Aigueze look lovely - we might be able to day trip to them, as you say. Before I was born, my parents were in the Alsace region while my father was with the Air Force. Both of my brothers were born in France during that time. I haven't been there, but I look forward to the day when we can live in France and explore Europe so much more without being limited to two weeks at a time and having to jump the puddle to get there!

I agree with you on Paris. At this point, I think I would enjoy maybe a long weekend there, but with so much more to explore and discover in France, it has moved down on my places to visit list. Surprisingly, I haven't been back to Switzerland since we left there in 1969. I'd love to show my wife the house where I was raised in Coppet, just outside Geneva. While I have no desire to live on an island due to feeling isolated and dealing with the hassle of having to take an airplane or boat to go anywhere else, Corsica was an absolute treat. There is so much packed into that relatively small island. We could easily spend a month there and not run out of things to do and see. (Mostly because it takes so long to get from one place to another on the twisty mountain roads...) Here is a link to photos I took while there: http://www.northernlight.net/corsica

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