Greetings,
Not sure how much you visited Hungary or how much interaction you had locally but as for me expect a sort of "culture shock". The bureaucracy is bad and almost nothing happens fast. Just about every agency has 30 days to do just about anything (although they don't always take advantage of that). You speak Hungarian that's an advantage but at the same time there is some expectation that if you do you suppose to know what to do and when. I speak the language yet sometimes I think they speak Chinese to me because some things they over complicate and doesn't make sense to my conversational Hungarian. On the flip side they tend to use a lot of foreign words and unfortunately in the process take away from the richness of the language. I have to assume you are a citizen or able to obtain Hungarian citizenship. There are some obvious advantage to that but as I see it there are a few drawbacks. If you have specific issues ask them as there are some people on this site that seem very well informed including "Bor", "Hot" and others! Prepare yourself for the 27% AFA (sales tax) generally speaking but somehow many things will seem cheaper still compare to the US! Be safe!

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Thank you for your response. I was born in Hungary, and still DO speak the language, but not as fluently as I speak English. I also have family in Buda, and hope that they would know the ins/outs of things...but I am leery of the things I am reading here about other issues. What do you mean by the 27% tax? what is that on? Property?

Also....does anyone know if you can bring your pets with you? If so, how does one go about that? I have many questions that I am attempting to iron out before I make the jump. I love living in Vermont, but financially, I am strapped and there is a family homestead there waiting for me to live in & spend my earnings on.

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Oh to answer your question about how much time I have spent in Hungary....I left there when I was 9 and returned in the 1970's once for three weeks, and again in the 1990's for two weeks. I found it chaotic, awful air quality, lots of smokers, congested Budapest, but enjoyed the Balaton & touring the countryside.

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Having family and property is going to be a help and make life a lot easier. I don't speak much Hungarian and it hasn't been a real problem. The 27% VAT applies to all purchases. If you buy anything outside the EU then it goes up to 35% as an import duty. I buy as much as I can either direct from China or from Germany. But, one thing you can do here is barter prices and make good deals. All EU countries have a VAT and the minimum is 19% (most are 21%). Hungary raised theirs to pay off the World Bank and IMF loans to get the US out of the management of Hungary which these loans force onto you. Why it continues I cannot understand but it is apparently paying for a lot of the social programs which still exist today. So, maybe it is okay but I am dubious that it is being spent well. Still, it is wrapped into the costs of things here and you don't really notice it. But, it is also why there is rampant fraud and a "black" economy. Hungary also has a flat rate income tax of 16% which is good. If you are a citizen or permanent resident then you can also purchase the National Health insurance for roughly $25 a month per person. It is frugal but excellent service but we pay cash so for us it isn't an issue. Costs are so cheap it isn't worth the enormous hassle of filing claims against my military Tricare for Life coverage I get from the US military. That is a retirement benefit I earned (and must pay for albeit cheaply but I was promised free health care for life back in 1971) with very little value and a huge headache. The costs here are low enough as you say but some things will surprise you. Gasoline, electricity, water, and natural gas are very much more. Gasoline is double, Electricity is 5 times higher and gas 4 times higher than we were paying in Virginia. On the other hand there is only a trivial property tax. no death tax, and no homeowners associations. In many ways you have a lot ore freedom here but as some indicate the bureaucracy can be maddening. Still, it is an interesting experience if you just settle in and wait it out. Everything moves slower here which can be very nice. I can't speak to living in Budapest as we live in Balatonfured which as you indicate is a fantastic area. If you compare prices in Hungary to Italy or the Netherlands it is a lot cheaper so it is all relative. The US is just cheap with everything and a lot has to do with corporate tax breaks and zero customs duties on almost every country now. Those taxes are now put directly onto the citizens so if you consider everything it is roughly half as cheap to live here in Hungary as in the US depending on your financial situation in the US.

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Greetings,
Understood. The 27% tax here is on everything like stuff you buy in the supermarket, tv, dishes etc., although there is a different rate on food and books for example like 18% etc. The 27% however also applies to the gas, electric and cell phone bills for example. There is no formal property tax as you know it but there is something called "epitmeny ado". For some reason however that does not exist in Budapest and other places. It seems to depend on the sq meter and in my case is about $100 a year so very reasonable. Doesn't sound like you need to buy a place but if you did there is a 4% sales tax at least in my case that goes to the Treasury. Law enforcement is different than what you are used to. The police here can stop you for no reason just because they want to check your papers. There is a "0" alcohol tolerance and they use relatively inaccurate small hand held devices which again they can ask you to blow in without "probable cause". Speeding fines are steep. A 29 km over the speed limit can get you a 50,000 forint fine, yet speed limit signs sometimes hard to find. Most traffic enforcement consists of radar traps and little else. Because of this people commit many traffic infraction like following too closely, like 1 car length at 120 km/hr. Dangerous yes but they adapted it from the Germans and like I said cops don't drive around much. If you are a Hungarian citizen you have to carry around multiple documents like your Hungarian id, address card and if you drive your license as well as registration and insurance. Incidentally here the registration is for two years. If you truly move back you will get to bring your stuff here without paying tax, like a car, household goods. I think it there is a time limit but not sure. Since I only have temporary residency I drive on my state license and I obtain a International Permit every year. As I mentioned nothing happens quickly here so you need to be patient and expect to be told to go to other offices before they can help you. Incidentally the taxation is different here. It is included in the price you see on the shelf so you know what you will be paying. No sticker shock at the register. I think Hungary is now on board with the US and there is no dual taxation so your pension is safe which leads me to the banks here. Expect no interest unless you tie your money down (lock it like CD's) for a few months. Here they charge you for taking our own money out or when you pay bills out of your account. Because of US taxation requirements some bank choose not to have US citizen customers but Hungary's original state bank the "OTP" and some others will. Incidentally the President of the OTP is also the soccer president in Hungary and is a very wealthy men. Most politicians do well her and I'll let you figure out for yourself-Why? LOL! Hope this helps a little bit! Prepare your move carefully as shipping can be expensive to Hungary. Be safe!

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Peddington is right. A recent change is that those of us from outside the EU who get a visa to live here (5 years at a time) now cannot legally register a car. You must get permanent residence for that (again every 5 years so not actually permanent). But, the catch is you have to live here 3 years before you go through the enormous hassle of getting the permanent residence permit. I am doing it now after having lived here for 6 years and recently bought a new car I can't register. On top of the basic BS required for a visa you also need a police background check which you better get in person in the states as it requires notarized signature which can only be done at the US embassy at $100 per signature and I needed passport, driver's license and request all notarized individually so $600 for both my wife and I. Then it took 6 months for us to get back the police report. Now I am going through the expensive hassle of getting our birth certificates, marriage license, passports, and police reports translated through the "official" translation (you cannot do it anywhere else) and it is going to cost 120,000 HUF. That plus 2 10,000 HUF stamps (you cannot pay official stuff any other way except for postal stamps), then we need 6 months of bank receipts and proof of insurance also a deed of our property which was another 40,000 HUF and must be less than 90 days old. This is a major hassle to go through but now we must do it. I cannot see any actual benefit for doing this except for now being able to register our new car. This is the kind of BS people talk about here in Hungary. The drivers license is if anything worse. I started the process but it is impossible to pass the Google translated written test. Peddington is right about the banks. I use K&H which also still currently accepts Americans. The FATCA regulations are onerous and burdensome and violations are fraught with enormous fines. You will pay for everything at the bank and it isn't cheap. Also they have no concept of checks so any you get are useless here. For that reason it is important to continue to maintain a US account but shop around for the one with the cheapest wire transfer as that can be huge as well. Some banks charge 2% of the amount transferred. BofA charges a flat $45 per transfer. We have our government pensions direct deposited to our K&H dollar account. Yes, we maintain 3 separate accounts each having it's own costs. One in Forints, one in dollars and the last in Euros. Doing it this was we can work out the various exchange rates. For example if you use your dollar account for travel in Germany any purchases will be converted from Euros to Forints then dollars and you will lose 5% on each conversion. A US Visa card attached to your US account normally will charge the official conversion rate the day it is actually converted so you do better that way. We convert dollars to forints when the rates are best ourselves. Hungary is largely a cash based society and bank cards are only used about 1/2 of the time and often you can get a 5% discount for cash as the fees are high for the merchant. Really, it is all okay but just takes some time to work out the best ways to do things.

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Thank you so much for your information. Please continue.
That is a very high tax. My lady friend in Budapest did not privy me to that. She just told me that I could live much better financially on my income there, than here.

Initially, I would probably live in my grandparents house until I figured out if I really wanted to stay there for good. I have no desire to deal with smoke pollution, which is rampant around Budapest & the suburbs. Is it still that way?

I do lease a car right now, and have not thought about whether I should bring it or turn it in here? I would need one, unless I wanted to depend on public transportation.

I also have pets...any suggestions on how to bring them?

I would love to move some of my belongings. What is the best way to do that? Otherwise, I would need to get storage here in the US or sell for very little in return.

So you own your own place? Or are you saying that there is a tax on rentals too?

Are you saying then that I could drive on my US state license there?

The bureaucracy does not sound too great. I would hate to be a non Hungarian speaking person & have a run around to deal with. Hopefully, my family would be able to help me with that.

I did contact my SS & Medicare & pension offices & they said there was no problem with my getting my payments. However, I belong to a credit union, and would probably have to change banking to CITI, since they have a branch in Budapest. Any suggestions other suggestions on banking? (i don't have investments or CDs)

I appreciate all your suggestions very much.
Thanks
Ildi

I

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I have not noticed the tax much directly. All the prices (well, except for a few) are brutto, so there is no sticker shock at the checkout line. Shopping for food is easy, restaurants and dining out is very inexpensive, culture and sports are also very inexpensive compared to US. Some of the fancy spa/baths are pretty steep, but others are quite reasonable and nice. Gas is about $8/gallon but you don't use a car nearly as much, train ($20-40 round trip to Vienna), metro (1.50 per 30-minute ride on any number of lines), bus (same as metro) are all pretty inexpensive. I ride my bike much more than ever before, and walk more. Wine is excellent and inexpensive as well. Medical treatment is adequate and requires a little bit of "handshake cash" but even that is inconsequential when compared to a $150 office visit in the US. A lot of nice craft art and other cool stuff that I could never find in the US.

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A car can be a problem. No leasing in Europe and I believe no car loans per se either. I could be wrong but I think that is a foreign concept here.

As for bringing pets it is no serious problem, just expensive. We brought our cat and basically you just need a veterinarian's certification for international animal transportation. You need a certified cage and to book the pet to fly on the same flight you are on. This last part is tricky as many airlines have eliminated the pet cargo area and converted it into crew sleeping areas. So, you may have to actually use a pet shipping company. You will have to shop around to see if anyone is providing this service any more. Hungary is not rabies free (neither is the US) so there is no quarantine period. If you bring one small pet they might be able to be placed under the seat in front of you but there are only 4 pets per plane authorized and they really must be small and of course First Class passengers gets first dibs. Since the escaped pig incident a few weeks ago I think many airlines are actually stopping this as well. So, IMHO you will end up using a transport company. Last I looked it runs between $800 and $1200 per pet. If you are smart use the same company you use for your household goods. If you are really smart buy a used car in the US and put it into the same container as your furniture. I wish we had done that but we were already maxed out with a 40 foot super size container which cost us $24k. Long and sad story about importing the car using a cheap method which was extremely painful in the end. If you use your same transport company it is a LOT easier. Cars are way more expensive here (roughly 40% higher, 27% of which is VAT) and you are allowed to bring one with you if you are coming on a retirement visa.

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WOW! Thank you for giving me some numbers about pet & car costs. I cannot imagine moving my possessions at that rate. I may just have to sell everything I can sell or give it all away. My family homestead is furnished, but I may have to invest in a decent mattress at least. I wish I could bring mine along. As for the pets....that is also unaffordable with four pets. I will try to find them homes, but at their age, that may not be possible. Now, I am really thinking this over. It's not as simple as moving from state to state in the US. :(

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I hope shipping is much less than that! We are only taking books, some clothes and few small items and our tv. I have to figure out shipping costs but i praying it is not 24k!

We have a car here in US but i was thinking we sale it and buy one over there. But then i am hearing non citizens can not own a car? Do you think long term rental would work?

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The car registration thing is new and you will have to check it out. Being a native Hungarian different rules may apply to you. Call some airlines and check about prices on the pets and if they even carry them at all any more. You may find it to be okay or make a deal with a shipping company. Used cars here are cheap enough so that is another option. I agree toss everything you can and start fresh. Mattresses are relatively cheap at Jysk and good enough for me and equivalent to our $5k mattress we bought in the US but at a fraction of the price. Ikea is another good source.

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How long did it take for you to ready yourselves for the move?
Good to know about used cars, but can you trust the sellers to not screw you? (even if one is Hungarian) I am not a mechanic & have not had luck with used vehicles here in the states. Have been buying/leasing new ones lately. Good to know about mattresses being affordable.
Thank you again for your responses.

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My wife and I packed a 20ft container by arranging it with a company called SEFCO out of New York. It cost about $3600 and was a fair amount of work on our part. They brought the container to our house and parked it for two hours as we loaded it. Any more time cost extra (we should have paid the extra couple hundred and been more thorough, but live and learn). They took it and shipped it to Gyor. Handling on this end was shaky since the contact guy on this end was poor. We finally gotten it straight and had to work through the paperwork. We could avoid any customs tax since my wife is a returning Hungarian national. It has been nice having the stuff we brought from home, but it turns out if we sold some of the stuff, we could have bought a lot of it here at similar prices, not quite WalMart prices, but maybe Target prices (Tesco is like WalMart here, OBI is like Home Depot, IKEA is here, plus a lot of good, small businesses still flourish, the big stores aren’t always the cheapest).
We did not want to bring a car here since the taxes on a car over 2.0 liter engine was significant. We only had a 2003 Honda Civic and a 1995 Prelude (that would be the expensive one) so I sold the Prelude and we are keeping the Civic at my daughter's house. We bought a KIA C'eed here and love it. It was 3.2 million FT, but they have gone up a bit lately. We looked at RORO shipping and the only one that made sense to us was to get a Toyota Prius since there was no customs tax on it, and they were very expensive here. We would have had to buy it 6 months before shipping it to avoid taxes/customs as an imported new car, and didn’t have time.
Don’t bring over a big car (bigger than say, a Toyota Avalon) or pickup truck, because they are hard to get around and park with. Some of the macho guys have Nissan pickups and I've seen one Jeep, but with gas over 350FT/litre, narrow roads, village living (no trip is over 2 hrs) parking, and really good train service (Gyor to Budapest in 1hr 30 min for 15 bucks) its hard to justify. That said, we have put on 44,000 km on the Kia in 3 years, mostly travel to BP, Balaton from Gyor.
I brought my power tools, stereo, computers etc. along with two transformers. The transformers I bought online for $35. They are 700 watts, used for my wife's big Kitchen Aid mixer and some other kitchen things, the other is with the stereo. I forgot that a turntable wont work even with the transformer since the 50-60 Hz difference slows the motor. My tools are okay, but you can get most of them here for nearly the same price, Bosch, Black and Decker, and other off brands for a variety of prices. This has only happened in about the last 4 years since a lot of German stores have come in like OBI, Lidl, Aldi and the general quality is good.
Our computer stuff converted since the power supplies all had a voltage switch. Just the Yamaha stereo needed 110. Electronics can be found at Tesco, Media Market, and some other big stores (check online). Remember, the price you see is always with tax included.
We go back to the US every year and buy stuff to bring back, mostly clothes that we get on sale at Marshalls or Belk (regional dept store like Macy's). I think finding good, inexpensive clothing is tough here. Also good inexpensive shoes. There are all the same brands, and some really nice ones that you don’t find in the US, that are expensive $80-100 but really nice shoes. But a lot is trending toward what you buy in the US

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thank you so much for all the detailed information on the move & expenses. I am putting off moving for now, after reading about the cost of moving animals. I just cannot afford those kinds of costs on my limited budget. So I stay put for now.
So glad I found this page & your help.

I may be going back for a short visit this summer, but will hold off on a move for now.

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Ildiko;
Don't chicken out. It is a trying experience, but, you'll be rewarded in more ways than one. You speak the language, so you'd have an easier time.

Paddington egy nem-magyar seggfej, don't pay attention to his inane rant. (Az ipse terhelt).

Both me and my wife were born in HU. She was only 5 when she left (I was 18). She is really happy to have left the US, and started a new life in HU. It's incomparable. HU has its own issues, but it's still way ahead in quality(!) of life compared to America. As for living standard, your retirement money will give you roughly twice as much goods and services than in the US, plus(!) the savings in medical expenses. Add up Medicare plan B, C and plan D costs, plus medigap insurance, and you are paying somewhere $ 350-500 per month for those. If you have something chronic, medigap ins. cost can skyrocket for coverage.

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Actually, gas currently is in the $4.80/gal. rate - about double of the US. (Math: huf350x3.8/280). Gas currently in Arlington VA (I'm here until the end of the month and will be back in HU by the middle of the May) is $2.36/gal. So it's "cheap". But spending $115 (32KHUF) for one appetizer (shared), four main courses, two cokes, one glass of wine and one glass of beer - the latter two at "happy hour prices" is not so cheap, and this was in essence a "New Orleans style" pub - something akin to Appleby's or TGIF, not some swanky joint.

The difference in prices would pay for a LOT of gasoline in HU, plus distances are so much shorter, resulting in lower gas usage. I regularly go from Uj-Buda to O-buda - one end of the city to the other - in about 10 to 15 minutes.

BTW: Car insurance in HU is a fraction of the US. That hundreds of dollars difference also pays for a lot of gas, plus maintenance/labor costs are also SIGNIFICANTLY lower to offset the initially higher car purchase costs.

Public transportation in Bud is CHEAP. You can buy a monthly pass (unlimited usage), good for all: bus, tram, metro, HEV, for 10K HUF (about $36) and the coverage of the city is absolutely excellent. If you're past 65, you ride FREE.

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Funny! I thought that "Jazz" has stopped his usual rant and berating people that comment on this web site but I guess was wrong! And "sheg fej"? Really! What "gentlemen" talks like that? Enough said! Ildiko check things out for yourself! While your US dollars may seem to go further in Hungary you have to look at other things. For example a chief of internal medicine I well acquainted through relatives told me that hospitals use instruments (like a tube" which is manufactured for "one time use" because the government really doesn't fund the hospitals well he said that they are forced to sterilize and reuse the "one time" time sometimes 4 or 5 times. Incidentally when I visited someone in the hospital I had to use the restroom. There was no soap or hand towel. Imagine that in a hospital. When I asked someone why that is she said "well if they put it in the restroom people will steal it". Don't get me wrong I visited another clinic and to my relief there was "soap" in the bathroom but they ran out of towels. True there are private clinics and hospitals that are more up to par with western standards. Now more and more places allow doctors to run "private hours" in the hospitals. Yes it cost more but you don't have to wait with the "csorda"!
In some more rural areas the hospital can be 30-40 minutes ambulance ride. I gues that is not long unless you having a hard attack or something really serious! Yes they have a few helicopters but I don't know the costs involved. So decide for yourself! Good luck and be safe!

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Paddington has no personal experience in hospitals. It is all from leftist rags he reads which are half-truths - at best.
In Bpest, in March my son-in-law (a born original American) after initial diagnosis (collapsed lung) at a clinic, was sent to Honved Korhaz for immediate x-ray (surgossegi/emergency). It was a Friday. Emergency was 2/3rd empty - unlike in the US, where it is always full to the brim, with hordes of Hispanics (illegals). He was x-rayed in about 15-20 minutes; 10 minutes of that was about finding out, that his insurance (Union) did not cover the procedure. I was told, that an immediate surgical procedure (insertion of tubes) was needed, but they couldn't do it there b/c the specialist (surgeon) left for the weekend. (bummer). They called around, and found a specialist on duty at Bajcsy-Zsilinszky Hospital. Put him on oxygen immediately after the x-ray, and an ambulance took him over there. About an hour-hour-and-a-half the procedure was done. He was in a room with two others in the lung dept/section, modern electric-adjustable beds, built-in services behind on the wall with all kinds of connections - including the vacuum for the two inserted tubes, oxygen supply, blood pressure monitor, and other various outlets/inlets of whatever kinds. Pain killers were administered via IV. Very modern, looking up-to date stuff. He said, food was good, progress of reflating the lung was checked with a portable x-ray, twice a day. He was out/released on Tuesday afternoon, so he was in for four days. B/c of the inadequate insurance, (he got it through SOTE) he got a bill for everything - including the ambulance of: 220K HUF. ($800). I was there during the procedure and later, there was NOTHING directly attached to him, which was not brand-new.

I also have a first cousin(!) who is a chief resident(!) physician in one of the major Budapest hospitals; I eat lunch at her house on every Sunday, so it is not some (mythical) acquaintance of some distant relative.
Pudding put in some whoppers here about HU hospitals, so I asked SPECIFICALLY about those Pudding mentioned. They ARE BULLS**T. Repeat all of those are bulldung; i.e LIES.
That's why I know that Pudding is getting his "info" from the anti-HU liars' propaganda sources, trying to buttress it with his mythical surgeon acquaintance.

My brother-in-law had so far two surgical procedures in HU hospitals, since the middle of last August. (The first one was appendicitis - and more serious and dangerous). During the latest medical episode he actually had been in two hospitals, one after another. All three places he has been, were adequate - albeit not luxurious - and gave the proper medial care he NEEDED.

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Thank you again for your elaborate reply. I appreciate all the details about the hospitals, and you may both be correct in your experiences, as they can certainly differ from hospital to hospital, even here in the US. Years ago, when my step father, a Hungarian had to have stomach surgery, he opted to return to Hungary for it, rather than have it here in the states. It cost him nothing practically, and he was well taken care of at the time. Right now, I have a friend in a FL hospital suffering for a month already & waiting for a heart surgery. He looks weaker & weaker by the day, as they keep interrupting his sleep. Hospitals are not health friendly places, and the sooner one gets in/out of them, the better. So am glad your son had a good experience in Hungary. I am sure there are always more than one point of view on every situation. I wish you two gentlemen would stop bickering on my blog. Thank you :)

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The last paragraph of my post has an error, it should be son-in-law not brother-in-law.

Puddington ad his lies(!) tick me off, I have a famliyful of relatives who are physicians in Budapest in various hospitals, my above mentioned cousin's husband is also a physician, both of my second cousins are also (heart and urology). I KNOW what's going on, better than ANYBODY on this forum.

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Oh if you have all those relatives in the field of medicine, I certainly would like to keep in contact....just in case I do come to Budapest in the near future.
Thanks Jazzman :)
ps....are you a musician?

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