heartsinireland
9/13/2016 14:34 EST
Here is my submission, sent to retireesreview@justice.ie today, 13 Sept 2016 [you have my permission to cut and paste any bits you want to use in YOUR submission!):
In response to the invitation for comments and suggestions, I submit the following, most of which was previously submitted on 4 September 2016 to strategy2016@justice.ie, with additional comments regarding the proposed changes now included under "Addendum." It should be noted that while the new proposal appears only to address those folks wishing to move to Ireland, my comments pertain to all categories of non-EEA retirees, those already IN Ireland, those who were forced to leave, and those who hope to move there.
QUESTIONS:
1. Returning to a more reasonable handling of folks wishing to retire in Ireland as long as they are good citizens, have private health insurance, and can demonstrate they have enough money to cover expenses?
2. Developing a plan which could reduce or eliminate the fear of those folks becoming a burden to the State?
3. Creating a new immigration category for retirees which allows for a smoother permission process and either a path to citizenship or permanent/longer term residence?
DISCUSSION:
I lived for nearly three years as a retired American citizen in Ireland from 2013-2016. It became my home, but because of the change of income requirements in 2015, even though the new rules were not supposed to apply to folks like me, they were, and I was forced to return to the USA in May. I was an enthusiastic promoter of all things Irish, a goodwill ambassador - but I was not wealthy enough for Ireland.
The current requirement of 50,000 euros income per person and a lump sum in an amount sufficient to purchase property/a dwelling in Ireland (or the 150,000 euros figure quoted to me during my third year in Ireland) is more than most Irish citizens have. Further, the income requirement seems to give no consideration to where an individual lives. (My Social Security income alone, although less than 20,000 euros, easily covered my expenses in Co. Kerry with a comfortable cushion left over each month.)
Is it not reasonable to believe the money I contributed and the money I, and many others, could still be contributing, money we earned elsewhere and brought to Ireland, helps offset the tremendous growing burden Ireland has from refugees, and indeed, from some of its own native citizens, those who cannot pay their own way and are dependent upon the State?
Are folks like myself not assets to the country? The danger of any of us becoming a burden to the State is limited. We are not eligible for any State benefits in Ireland. The only danger would be if a long term health issue arose which prevented someone from taking care of themselves and was to such a critical degree they could not be put on a plane and sent back to their home county. What is the likelihood of that happening with any frequency?
SUGGESTIONS:
I. FINANCIAL REQUIREMENTS & PROCEDURES
A. Come up with a general income requirement by area, based on the cost of living there. Use that figure only as a tool in helping to determine if someone can stay. Make the primary deciding factor be the individual's ability to show the funds available to them cover the cost of their living expenses.
B. Take more factors into consideration instead of painting everyone with the same broad brush. For example, consider the amount of debt and whether the individual is a homeowner.
C. Require individuals to submit a budget and a declaration under penalty of perjury that should any situation arise which impacts that budget such as increased expenses, decreased income, or moving out of the area, they will notify INIS and submit a new budget with the understanding the permission to remain will be re-evaluated.
D. Require those applying for permission to remain who don't meet the financial threshold to deposit a sum of money to be held in escrow, a sum adequate to cover the expense of deportation to be used by INIS in the event the individual's circumstances change and they are no longer able to live in Ireland and pay their own way and do not voluntarily leave.
AND/OR:
Develop a plan for long term care insurance or payment of a reasonable monthly fee for individuals over a certain age, to cover situations where deportation is not immediately possible because of the critical nature of the health situation.
II. NEW STAMP CATEGORY FOR RETIREES
Provide a new Stamp category which allows applicants:
A. Speedier renewal of their permission to remain without the annual two-three months of waiting in limbo, wondering if they'll be approved. Perhaps a process which is handled on a local level rather than the current cumbersome process of everything being handled in Dublin by postal mail.
B. An optional path to citizenship or, if not actual citizenship, then permanent, unlimited residency/permission to remain after a certain amount of time spent annually renewing or, at a minimum, longer periods of permission, for example five-year cycles instead of the current one year.
C. An avenue to appeal their case in person. An opportunity for face-to-face interaction with applicants would surely be beneficial to INIS in assessing the quality, sincerity and eligibility of the individual in question.
D. The option to apply for permission to live in the country prior to moving there, eliminating the huge expense and life-upheaval of moving there and finding out one cannot stay.
Thank you greatly for your consideration of the above.
ADDENDUM 13 September 2016:
(Thoughts on current proposal for change)
1. The proposal regarding a change in the stamp status and procedures for retirees is appreciated.
2. Reducing the income figure to €40,000 for individuals, while an improvement, still does not take into consideration what seems to be the most important factor: adequate income to cover expenses.
Annual income of €40,000 may not be enough in some places in Ireland and is double what is needed in others. Therefore, choosing one figure as the threshold seems unfair to those wishing to live in smaller more rural areas of the country. [See I. Financial Requirements & Procedures above]
3. The "connections" to Ireland and the fear of older folks possibly needing long-term care needs to be looked at together. Just because someone doesn't have family in Ireland doesn't mean there is no one to either physically or financially care for them. Many have a large network of friends in Ireland, as well as friends and family in the USA or other countries. This is the 21st century. Folks are only a plane trip away and funds are easily electronically transferred. Consider getting signed affidavits from people willing to accept the responsibility for an individual should the need arise.
4. Ireland needs to address folks in my category, those who arrived in Ireland and obtained permission to remain before enactment of the March 2015 rules, and then were forced to leave.
The recent proposals ignore people in this category, people who were refused permission even though those rules were not supposed to apply to them. And now, those of us who have had to leave the country have spent considerable sums of money in making that move and trying to get resettled elsewhere. We have thus been twice penalized as we were not only made to leave what was our home, but now have less money toward the amount Ireland wants us to have and likely even less than practically needed to achieve such a major move again.
A special path needs to be established and cleared for those of us who are willing to again give it a go - those of us who should not have been made to leave in the first place - as long as we take some basic steps and provide general info such as housing secured in advance, a budget showing income covering expenses, and a list of references/network of friends and/or family in Ireland.
[END]
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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
9/13/2016 15:22 EST
Hearts, thanks for the fantastic response. I will need a few days to put my own thoughts in order but I think you have done a great job summarizing many of my own thoughts. And adding a few others as well. I really like the idea of applicants showing a budget detailing how their income will be sufficient to cover their own personal living expenses as everyone's circumstances are different.
One thing I am not sure of is whether the Ministry will allow the time spent under Stamp 0 to count towards citizenship? Also, why does the applicant need to be at least 60 years old? I also hope the new policy will include detailed guidelines.
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hereineir
9/13/2016 15:48 EST
Kevin, under the proposed new rules, 5 Stamp 0's will get you a Stamp 3, with a path to citizenship. (See pg 6, #12)
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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
9/13/2016 17:15 EST
Yes but the path is not described. Will 5 years under stamp 0 count towards the years required for citizenship? Seems like it should but current Stamp 0 policy says no.
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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
9/13/2016 18:14 EST
I hope no one is annoyed at the length of this posting. I have not sent this to the Ministry yet but wanted to share my thoughts as soon as they have been put to "paper". I have put quotes around the statements made by the Ministry followed by my comments.
“Similarly, it is assumed that the persons seeking to come to Ireland as retirees do not qualify for Irish citizenship through birth and do not meet the threshold for an avenue such as Ireland’s Immigrant Investor Programme (IIP), which has no age conditions attached. This option remains open to qualifying applicants.”
As reported by INIS, “since 16 March 2016 the business permission scheme has been suspended while the business, start-up entrepreneur and immigrant investor schemes are being reviewed.”
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/types_of_employment/self_employment/coming_to_set_up_a_business_in_ireland.html
Therefore, for retirees who do not meet the requirements as “persons of independent means”, there appears to be no other options for permanent residency in Ireland.
“A tourist coming to Ireland could stay for 90 days at a time and could have multiple visits. Therefore the possibility of having a second home in Ireland and coming here for short durations remains open and is not affected by guidelines for non-EEA retirees.”
90 days may not be sufficient for a retiree who owns a primary or 2nd home in Ireland. Will INIS approve 180 day stays to retired persons that own a home without requiring income and other tests? If so, can this approval be granted by the local Garda immigration officers?
“If the applicant meets the conditions above, an immigration permission is issued. This is a low level immigration permission that allows a person to remain lawfully in Ireland for a specific, temporary and limited purpose although there is no maximum duration for such permissions and they are capable of being renewed annually.”
Since the requirements for renewal are the same as the initial application, it is more correct to say that the maximum duration is only one year. Will the Ministry confirm that if a person’s financial condition has not changed from the prior year, their renewal will be granted and that any changes in the rules or in the Euro-US Dollar exchange rate will not be considered in the renewal application?
“The permission does not confer a right to engage in employment or to run a business and has the condition that the holder does not receive state benefits.”
Can the Ministry confirm that certain financial investments in Ireland are permissible for retirees?
“France and Portugal grant visas to retired non-EEA persons provided they can demonstrate sufficient resources. Such persons are covered by public health insurance in France and are entitled to apply for long term residency and citizenship in both countries in due course. Spain appears to grant an investment visa which requires considerable investment in schemes approved by its Economic Ministry.”
Please note that Spain, Portugal, Malta, and Cyprus all permit purchases of homes as the sole requirement for long term residency and citizenship. Please consider such a program for Ireland especially in rural areas that continue to suffer economically.
“At the same time a desire to live in Ireland does not confer a right to do so and the State has no responsibility to deliver on the aspirations of potential retirees. All sovereign countries have a right and duty to control immigration and to apply policies that reflect what the State determines to be the appropriate balance of interests.”
Ireland does in fact confer to certain members of the Irish diaspora the right to live in Ireland and obtain Irish citizenship. This policy reflects the mandate under Article 2 of the Irish Constitution which requires Ireland to offer a special affinity to the Global Irish. Under current policy, people desiring to live in Ireland who can produce evidence that one of their parents or grandparents was born in Ireland are automatically declared Irish citizens and are entitled to an Irish passport. Please consider a special category of retiree who can prove an unbroken link to their Irish heritage regardless of the number of generations that have past. I am sure you would agree that such persons are far less likely to become a burden on the Irish State.
Similarly, please consider a special immigration policy for U.S. citizens based on the long-standing special relationship between Ireland the U.S. As you know there are many undocumented Irish living in the U.S. and many American politicians including our current president are extremely sympathetic to helping these undocumented Irish to become legal permanent residents of the U.S. Unfortunately, the U.S. constitution is not as flexible as the Irish constitution in its ability to address this issue.
“The mere fact that a person has sufficient income to maintain themselves is not in itself a justification for being granted immigration permission. Many jurisdictions, including Ireland, operate targeted immigration schemes, for example to attract significant investment to the State or to address a shortage in the labour market. The policy arguments that underpin such targeted immigration schemes clearly do not apply to any great extent to prospective
retirees.”
I respectfully disagree that retirees do not make significant contributions to the Irish economy. In comparing Irish immigration schemes, a person can achieve permanent residency and a path to citizenship simply by investing as little as €500,000 in an approved Irish business. If granted residency, the investor does not need to spend more than one day each year living in Ireland. If they chose to live in Ireland, they are entitled to work. By contrast, a retiree living full-time in Ireland contributes much of their annual income to Ireland in the form of consumer spending, VAT, stamp duty and other payments. They are not entitled to work and therefore do not compete for jobs with local people. In addition, many retirees will purchase a home, often for sums greater than €500,000. Therefore, over say a 15-20 year period of retirement, the average retiree will probably invest much more than the €500,000 required for an investor.
“On one side of the financial equation the person coming to Ireland will, as a consumer of goods, services and accommodation, contribute to the local economy. Against that, persons wishing to retire here have spent their working lives paying taxes and contributing to the economy of another country. They may face extremely high medical costs in their retirement sometimes quite significantly higher than Ireland if they choose to remain in their home
countries. The taxation system for foreign pensions is also complex and, in some cases, persons residing in Ireland and in receipt of a pension from abroad may be taxable in that country rather than in Ireland.”
My own analysis of taxation revealed the opposite as stated above and can result in payment of income tax to Ireland which would otherwise be tax exempt in the U.S. Regardless, retirees are not entitled to Irish welfare benefits and therefore should not be required to pay the same level of taxes. Has the Ministry measured the economic impact of retirees on the Irish economy and found it to be negative? As for medical costs, retirees are required to maintain comprehensive private health insurance. My conversations with medical professionals in Ireland indicate that the fees paid by such insurance coverage provides adequate compensation to the providing facilities and in fact, help subsidize the services provided to Irish patients.
“A central issue therefore, is the potential financial liability to the Irish State in respect of elderly retirees on relatively modest incomes who wish to come here to live. It is an indisputable fact that as people get older they are far more likely to need medical treatment. Statistically the living costs increase as people get older. Work done in INIS in 2011-2 indicated that a person aged 55 could potentially support themselves on just under €25,000 a year but this doubled by the time they reached 80. Of particular concern would be the potential cost and availability of nursing home care. This is not covered by private health insurance and can be expected to amount to around €1,000 per week. In the worst case scenarios of a person who becomes unable to care for themselves, the costs to the State could therefore be considerable, particularly as this cohort is unlikely to have close family support in Ireland.”
Since retirees are required to maintain comprehensive private health insurance, the only relevant issue here is the nursing care requirement. For retirees, however, your rules require posting €100,000 of collateral. Is this not adequate to deal with this concern? It is quite common for retirees to have dependents and other family members living in their home countries who will assume responsibility for their aging care. Perhaps the Ministry should consider a requirement that upon reaching a certain age, retirees will need to post additional collateral or have a sponsor in their home country agree in writing to be responsible for the retiree’s senior care to include returning them to their home country. In practice, this appears to be the most common way these matters are handled. Does the Ministry have any statistical evidence that non-EEA retirees cannot afford nursing home care and therefore become wards of the Irish State?
“Once a person is admitted to the State as an elderly retiree, it has to be acknowledged that that decision is likely to be permanent as long as that person remains law abiding. This reality has been a factor in setting the bar relatively high in financial terms.”
There are a couple of conflicting thoughts implied above. I agree completely that retirement is typically a permanent state. However, your policy only grants retirees a one year permission to remain. Therefore, their appears no reason to set the financial bar so high. Using the same logic, if you wish to set the bar so high, why not provide longer term residency? The Ministry should understand that the lack of assurances regarding long-term residency is one of the biggest concerns of potential retirees with the current policy.
“Immigration systems cannot, however, express a preference for one nationality over another, unless this is based on some form of reciprocal agreement between the Governments of the two countries. A good example of this is a Working Holiday Agreement, where each party agrees to admit a quota of the other’s nationals under certain conditions. Since there are no such agreements governing retirees and Irish citizens do not have access to non-Investor retirement migration to the United States, no case can be made on that basis. Therefore, if a retirement channel remains open it must be open to all nationalities including those which are visa required.”
Again, please forgive me but this statement ignores the immigration by ancestry program which does in fact express a preference for one nationality or ethnicity over another. Your comments about Irish Americans are well said but you then choose to look at Irish Americans as simply Americans and not Irish. Also, your statements ignore the differences between the Irish Constitution and the U.S. Constitution. Your constitution (and others in Europe) allows for ethnic policies while the U.S. constitution strictly prohibits it.
“While it is clear that there is not, in financial terms, a strong cost benefit rationale for operating a retirement immigration channel, it is acknowledged that a scheme is already in existence and is availed of in the main by nationals of a country with which Ireland has long enjoyed a special relationship.”
As I have indicated previously, it appears clear that in fact there is a strong positive cost benefit rationale for encouraging retirees of proven independent means to retire to Ireland. Based on the certainty of retirees investing considerable sums into the Irish economy over many years and the requirement that retirees do not work or avail themselves of government assistance of any kind, this seems obvious. If I am mistaken, can the Ministry provide such cost benefit analysis? Also, can the Ministry provide statistical evidence showing that retirees, in particular U.S. citizens, have received permission to remain in Ireland but have eventually become wards of the Irish State? Please note that for Americans living on social security income, such income is guaranteed for life and backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government.
Regarding the key elements of the recommended scheme, I am happy to see these requirements in detail. My one comment is that the €40,000 requirement is only a small reduction from the March 2015 guidelines and a significant increase over prior informal requirements before March 2015 of a reported €25,000. Also, the €100,000 cash reserve does not appear necessary as applicants continue to be subject to annual renewal. It has been suggested that the €100,000 represents the possible expenses for future nursing home costs which for most, if not all retirees, is not applicable for their initial application as they are required to provide a doctor’s certification that they are in good health. Lastly, the requirement for annual renewals for the first five years of permission under Stamp 0 seems unnecessary as these are the years that retirees would be far less likely to become a ward of the Irish State.
I hope that the application will include a detailed manual such as the one for family reunification policy. Such as manual should include the following information or answer the following questions:
1. Provide examples of the type of “close connection to Ireland” that would be approved for residency. Also, what documentation will be required to prove Irish heritage? Would a DNA test be adequate?
2. Must retirees provide evidence of residency if they have not yet been granted permission to live in Ireland?
3. List the types of income that are considered “good” or “bad”
4. Detail the specific insurance coverage requirements
5. While waiting for a decision from INIS, can retirees be granted temporary permission to live in Ireland until a decision is made? Can such temporary approval be given by a local Garda immigration official?
6. Does the time spent under Stamp 0 count towards citizenship?
7. Regarding the “trade off” between net assets and net income, what formulas will be used?
8. If retirement income is paid in USD, what exchange rate will be used? Upon annual renewal, is there any exchange rate risk?
9. U.S. Social Security is indexed to inflation and most retirees wait until they are 70 years old before beginning withdrawals (receiving income). Will INIS allow U.S. retirees to wait until they can maximize their retirement payments as long as the applicant has enough cash on hand to pay living expenses?
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Meachair54
9/13/2016 18:57 EST
Better cut that novel down to a short story, you're are picking apart the policies of Ireland on immigration ,social health and welfare. The letter is way too much seems by the letter the Irish Gov't doesn't have a clue as to what they did when it came to their constitution and writing of their immigration laws. The letter sounds really condescending ,bet officials who could read this letter would be turned off and squash any new proposals on immigration reform.
Way to much picking apart of Irelands rules and regulations on the subject or should I say you sound as I you're re-writing the rules and procedures because you know better.
Way, Way ,Way to much sounding like they're wrong and you have all the right answers. Where also did you get the stats that the majority of people eligible to collect U.S. Social Security Retirement Benifits wait till they're 70 to collect, that's a joke.
The letter comes off as one who has all the answers and you know better then they do! Rather insulting to the Irish Gov't, that's just my opinion , really Good Luck if you send that letter!!
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Meachair54
9/13/2016 19:16 EST
I would put only the polished draft on this site anyone can read your beginning ideas and get the same impression that I got , then you would be starting at a deficit, you know people are out there perusing this site. Good Luck again !!!
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heartsinireland
9/13/2016 22:22 EST
Thanks Kevin. I probably should have taken more time for my submission as I've noticed a few more things I should have commented on. Thought it was quite hilarious that their first paragraph talks about the "steady stream" of applicants (retirees) then goes on to quote "100" in 2015. Kind of a drop in the bucket, wouldn't you say? One wonders if there were only 100 why the big worry about any of them becoming burdens to the State?!
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heartsinireland
9/13/2016 22:31 EST
I disagree that your letter is not respectful. I see nothing at all wrong with it. It is carefully detailed and I applaud your efforts. It shows you not only read their current position but have done your homework with regard to the situation and the involved politics. I say rock on, Kevin!
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heartsinireland
9/13/2016 22:34 EST
I strongly disagree. It is a well-known fact that one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. They're now possibly going to begin trying to correct that. I find nothing disrespectful in Kevin's letter. He is telling it like it is. The Irish are tough; they can take it. And they're not going to retaliate by taking negative action just because someone's words might offend them. That's just silly. They've asked for opinions and that's what they're getting.
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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
9/13/2016 22:42 EST
Thanks for your support although I think I can say basically the same thing without preaching. I was just trying to get something out quickly to meet certain deadlines.
Interesting about the 100 count. I keep asking what statistics the Ministry is relying on but failed to understand the overall impact of such a low number of applicants It does seem clear that the impact to the Irish economy cannot be significant under assumptions either positive or negative.
I am also aware of a concern by some of the impact on real estate if Ireland creates a real estate only option for home purchases immigration similar to Spain and Portugal. It seems unlikely that a few hundred (or even a few thousand) home purchases to foreigners could have any meaningful impact of average real estate prices in Ireland but of course I do not have the data.
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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
9/13/2016 22:49 EST
I also think that the Ministry is making a concerted effort to be fair and I am grateful they have provided a detailed response to our concerns.. The Ministry is dealing with far more important matters than a few hundred non-EEA citizens looking to live in their country. I only wish they believed that retirees make a positive contribution and I will continue to believe that they do until I am shown the evidence.
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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
9/16/2016 07:29 EST
Hot off the presses - an Irish Central article on the Ministry's review. Please follow this on their website and register so that you can post messages. Should be quite a lively debate based on similar articles in the past with comments expected from both sides of the Atlantic.
http://www.irishcentral.com/culture/travel/frustrated-with-ireland-s-strict-laws-for-foreign-retirees-here-s-your-chance-to-complain
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dave8408e
9/16/2016 10:27 EST
Looks to me as if the IrishCentral writer got one of the key elements of the new plan wrong. There IS a path to citizenship -- this is expressly pointed out in item 12 of the proposal.... all you've got to do is spend 5 years on Stamp O, and then move to a Stamp 3...for 5 MORE years ---http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Naturalisation_Residency_Calculator
after which you can apply for naturalisation....
So about the time you're dead, you can apply, and hopefully be granted citizenship! Cheers!
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heartsinireland
9/16/2016 22:39 EST
They asked for my opinion and if I had known I'd be quoted, I'd have tried to be more eloquent! Hope lots of folks send in their submissions. Cheers! Jane
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Meachair54
9/17/2016 06:46 EST
Don't worry about it ,you conveyed what you had to say. Irish Central marches to the beat of a different drummer , believe about fifty percent of what they print unless you're a Hillary Clinton fan. As far a the opinion by readers I thinks the majority of them are trolls!!
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Meachair54
9/17/2016 19:17 EST
Yes you are right they are asking for opinions on the subject of residency by non EEA 's , not the rewriting of the New Testament or the amending of Bunreact na hE'Irelann ! It is a way of appearing those who can't accept another countries laws !
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Meachair54
9/17/2016 19:31 EST
Yes you are right they are asking for opinions on the subject of residency by non EEA 's , not the rewriting of the New Testament or the amending of Bunreact na hE'Irelann ! It is a way of appearing those who can't accept another countries laws !
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Meachair54
9/17/2016 19:31 EST
Yes you are right they are asking for opinions on the subject of residency by non EEA 's , not the rewriting of the New Testament or the amending of Bunreact na hE'Irelann ! It is a way of appearing those who can't accept another countries laws !
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heartsinireland
9/18/2016 13:00 EST
Meachair54: You seem to be angry about this topic, rather than interested and supportive of those who wish to retire in Ireland. Just curious: wondering if you are Irish and/or live in Ireland?
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Meachair54
9/18/2016 14:00 EST
It doesn't matter where I live or how I feel on the subject of people wanting to retire in a certain country. The problem is that people from outside the country they want to retire to, has it's own laws on residency , living in that country ,citizenship , conditions to reside in or become a citizen of that country. Laws that were made for that countries protection of its people and government, it is a democracy that wrote its constitution and laws for their people as well as their government and wellbeing.
Outsiders who love a country and want to live there but can't due to that countries immigration laws act as if they are entitled to preferential treatment and want rules made by another country to be changed so those people can have their way. They have clear and precise rules on how you can become a citizen or hold residency in their country. If you do not qualify for either just change their laws!
I would venture to say most of the non EEA people who want move to Ireland and don't qualify are citizens of the U.S.A. .and somehow they think they can change another country's laws . Then people wonder how and why the term Ugly American is often used , it because people put their two cents in where it doesn't belong ......... Oh !!! And by the way if it matters that much to you I'am a citizen of the U.S and the EU.
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Meachair54
9/18/2016 17:14 EST
Well I was doing research on places to reside and look for a home in southern part of Ireland, coming across the Dave 8408e messages peaked my interest. Why? I wondered if those people who moved to Ireland had thoroughly researched what was required to become a resident ,if citizenship wasn't obtainable. That would be a expensive mistake to make. That is why after researching the immigration laws, I painstakingly researched my family roots and made many trips to Ireland to confirm my findings in order to obtain citizenship so I could retire to Ireland .
While following the non EEA residency responses it sounded as if these non EEA 's didn't research the big move or asked enough questions, seemed pretty black and white to me,which is why I obtained Irish citizenship because I'm living in the U.S. and visiting in Ireland on 90 day intervals until I move permanently.
I continue to read the messages and those who don't qualify for residency don't like the immigration laws and want them changed to accommodate their needs. Ireland is a democratic country with laws and rules with which they enforce for the good of Ireland and its citizens Guess they don't want those who don't belong to stay out. Why? They probably don't want illegal immigrants taking jobs away from its own people and abusing its welfare system, you know like in the U.S. With its secure borders, NOT. I know you are going to say we have money, our own medical insurance and won't be a burden on the state. I realize that but they have laws to safeguard against those type of things for a reason.
Ireland is being gracious and easing up on the requirements to retire there, but people are still complaining that they aren't good enough. If you are going to be a resident in another country you follow their laws or be deported .
It can't be any clearer than that, well that's just my opinion on the topic. Hope that has you wondering no more, Heart in Ireland !!!!
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DebAckley
9/18/2016 17:20 EST
I am a citizen of the USA and also have dual citizenship in Ireland ( I carry an EU passport), too. We love Ireland and tried to live/retire there. The Irish love us Yanks, but I think we retirees need to think about the country too. Health insurance...I qualify for universal, but I was told by many locals you need to buy extra to get better healthcare. Also, we chatted many times about all the "services" we use, without really putting in $$ as paying taxpayers.
I love Ireland....but I missed the good ol' USA. I missed my friends/family, a rare hamburger, the four seasons ( I live in snow country...yes, I missed it...100' or so a winter). I think moving there would have been easier if we had young children or jobs...good luck to all who carry on the quest to move there....but tonight I"m watching NFL, having some great Italian hot sausage ( which we couldn't find in Kerry) and calling my sister from another mother...cheers all!
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heartsinireland
9/18/2016 20:59 EST
Thanks. I'm still confused as to your bitterness/anger but that's ok. Just for your info, I spent a year carefully researching to find out if I was a viable candidate for living in Ireland as a retiree. (You don't seem to be aware Americans aren't entitled to work in Ireland unless working for an American company or in a profession where there is a shortage.)
At the time I moved there in 2013, I DID qualify under Ireland's vague rules at the time. Changing the laws and having the minister announce the changes didn't apply to those already there legally and then having those very laws applied to me... THAT is my problem with Ireland. Any country, including Ireland, ought to welcome those who are putting money into the economy and paying their own way. Period. And it is essentially (most of it, anyway) a free world, So folks are free to criticize and hope for change in a country where that change would be helpful not only to retirees wanting to live there, but to the country, as well. I don't know a single Irish citizen who doesn't agree with me on this issue. They are appalled with the current immigration policies for non-EEA individuals. Odd that since you have the luxury of coming and going as you please that you are not wanting to be more gracious and helpful to those who wish they were in your shoes. But different strokes...
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Meachair54
9/18/2016 22:37 EST
There is no anger or bitterness toward anyone ,yes I'am aware of the rules of employment and the conditions of getting residency through investing in a business or investing " X " amount of dollars in a worthy cause. The laws are vague on immigration also a lot of Non EEA's still think you can get citizenship through great grandparents and they want that law put back on the books. Not all countries grandfather people , rules ,or codes in as other countries .
Sure you're entitled to criticize how other countries run THEIR COUTRY , but a lot of countries don't see the outsider as someone they have to change rules for. Frustration of people living in another's country and expecting that country to change rules and regulations to suit guests of that country is frowned upon in most countries because the laws are in place for that countries well being and protection of its citizens . If what you say of the Irish people being disgusted with the immigration laws toward the non EEA , then they are the ones who can iniciate the ad mending of the laws on immigration through the process of elections or petitioning their local political leaders, the politician s listen to the ones who vote them in not non citizens. It has nothing to do with me being gracious or more helpful I am not yet a resident of Ireland so I am not allowed to vote on matters of Ireland. I worked thirty years in government in the U.S. where I witnessed the politicians bending over backwards giving people here other then legal residents social security , Medicare , housing , food stamps and unemployment even when they weren't working or in the country legally. You give people an inch they want a yard and before you know it you r tape measure is broken so to speak, that is why countries don't change they immigration laws to readily to suit non residents , when in Rome so As the Romans ,that the fruition you see in my messages not anger. Things have to fixed from the inside,not from the outside . I worked hard tracing my roots and ancestry after I couldn't reside as a permanent resident as many Non EEA have found out and after years of hard work and saving I'am now realizing my dream. I have other dreams in my life that I finally had to admit were unattainable and accept it and move on !!!!
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dave8408e
9/19/2016 05:20 EST
To Meachair.... Yes, we Americans are a pesky lot, sticking our noses in other county's interests. People who are free to speak their minds often do. Remember how Americans, who by your measure should have minded their own business, gave 'Dev' over a million dollars to fight for Irish independence? I suppose America should not have created the Lend-Lease Act, which funnelled money into British hands to keep the UK afloat and to fight Hitler before we entered the war? I suppose too that Kennedy should not have stood at the Berlin Wall and said "Ich bin ein Berliner"... or, again in Berlin, that rude President Reagan telling Mr. Gorbachev to tear down the wall... Americans are so used to living in a free society that grants us the right of free speech, we often use it against ourselves -- you're probably familiar with the protests against the Vietnam War for example? When Americans see injustice, they whine and bitch and try to change the system, but simply staying quiet never leads to change, does it?
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DonieHoran
9/19/2016 07:21 EST
Greetings Meachair 54,
I just happen to come across your communication on the Ireland Expat forum. If Co Kerry(or the Kingdom as it is known), in South West Ireland is of interest to you as the location for your home in Ireland - I will have a nice 5/6 b/r detached country home in the classic design for sale next year. The house sits on a lovely mature wooded 1 acre site in an edge of village location & is within a 10/15 min drive to a choice of 2 fabulous blue flag Atlantic beaches. Photographs/details can be viewed on the Real Estate in Ireland section of this Expat Forum or if unable to locate,I can supply details,on request.
Good luck with your application process for relocation to the Emerald Isle.
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Meachair54
9/19/2016 07:25 EST
Dave 8408e, sorry I opened this can of worms now we have all the history buffs quoting time and places that America stepped in to help other countries ,as well as other nations did the same in time of war and came to the aid of our allies For every gun ho quote and action you mention you seem to for get that other counties also came to the aide of the U.K. Then with Kennedy you have the Cuban Missile Crisis and trying to get the mafia to assassinate Castro. Regan you got the Iran Contra Deal which which didn't bode well, ah yes Vietnam I do remember that because I was drafted and served,so for every photo op you mentioned there's plenty of others we would like to forget. Oh by the way we are the world police and look where that got us . On and on I can counter your God Bless America moments with a ton of negative reaction because of the. U. S. Being the police of the world.... So that's my opinion which I'm entitled to, and quit being cry babies because you don't get your on telling another country what to do ,that's where us the U.S. Butting got us, in stead of taking care of thr USA first have a good day !!!!!
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heartsinireland
9/19/2016 14:32 EST
Meachair has taken this thread way off topic. It was intended to be for those of us interested in retiring in Ireland and providing feedback on proposed immigration rule changes, as invited by the Irish government, not a political discussion or debate. I wrongly assumed only those interested in the cause would read and participate. I've asked expatexchange to close the thread. Hopefully, they will.
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Meachair54
9/19/2016 16:01 EST
Hearts in Ireland, voiced my opinion when Kevin via NYC started his quest to change the immigration laws on residency in Ireland which he is entitled to I believe by contacting U S and Irish embassies and politicians ,then by starting his petition all the while expressing his views on what was wrong with the laws and what to do to change them. I read his views and expressed my concerns on the way he was going about it , giving my views which wasn't political or a debate .Then hearts of Ireland jumped in to say Kev via NYC was doing a great job and in so many words HeartinIreland responded to by saying butt out while I'am being critical , Iwas giving my opinion on what another country would think if they told how to run their country. Then all the rest with article in Irish Central about the petitions and how to participate in the petition then someone crying about how they weren't prepared when I.C. Asked for a response. Kev via NYC then rewrote the responses he had for Irelands government on the how to change the rules for residency in Ire. I then suggested he cut the letter short by about two pages.... That seemed to upset you and of course I respond to anyone who responds to my message, you can interpret what I wrote anyway you want,seems others twisted my message and then the God Bless the US rhetoric started. So once again people don't like what is said or doesn't get their way they want to quit playing ball and take their ball home.Shut the thread down didn't know the thread was only for a privileged few who have like opinions and Don't like what anyone else say if it doesn't further their goals. This will be the last response I make on this subject.
P.S. It becomes political once people start asking politicians on both sides of pond to help change another countries laws...... Good Luck ,,,
Adios !!!!!!
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Meachair54
9/19/2016 16:05 EST
Thanks for the offer on the house in Kerry but that is a rather large home for two of us, I already have a few irons in the fire once again thank you for the offer. Have a good day!!!!!
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