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need advice on bankng

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mcmash
  6/7/2013 01:15 EST

Hi!
I am retiring July 30 and we are relocating to Italy September 30. I haven't figured out how we should handle getting our monthly payouts from our retirement accounts. The broker says they can't deposit directly to an Italian bank account because they can't do business in Italy. Anyone else been told this? Is there an American bank (or any bank doing business in the US) with a relationship with an Italian bank (like Bank of America has with Paribas in France)? Are there ways to transfer money from a Us account to an italian account?
thanks!
Nancy

whidden39
  6/7/2013 13:38 EST

I've been asking this and related questions for years without much success. I'll be watching replies as eagerly as if I had written your question. Wire transfers are possible, but with the fees each time, I'd want to transfer an adequate amount for several months' expenses. But then you have to report any account balances over $10,000 when you do taxes. In the US the bank will also report each transfer trasaction of $10,000. The issue here is disclosure since the US is clamping down on hiding deposits overseas. I don't mind the disclosure so much as not wanting to be taxed twice on earnings (Italy and US). I don't think that happens, but I'm really not sure. Then, how does an average consumer get the best exchange rate for these transfers? And using an ATM to draw funds from a US account will almost certainly have a foreign currency fee (usually 3%), a fee from your US bank (my credit union doesn't charge). So far I've never had a surcharge in Italy at the ATM, but how long will that last? At least the exchange rate at an ATM is usually very favorable. On top of all this is a weak dollar against the euro that over time makes everything more expensive and erodes savings. (That's why I will not live in an expensive city in Italy -- a small town in the south is my target) When you consider all the ways your money flows through these transactions, there is the real possibility that your dollars are fee'd multiple times along the way. So, knowing all these fragmented pieces, what is the best route? I'm still confused. I suspect I will keep my banking relationships in both countries until I figure it all out. And what about credit cards. There are very few issuers in the US that offer cards with chip technology that Italy uses nearly exclusively. Marriott VISA issue by Chase has the chip. But you'll get fees for foreign transactions. I wonder what wil lbe involved in getting a VISA credit card from an Italian issuer. YIKES! We certainly aren't the first expats to be confronting this; but I haven't found good sources of reliable info for these important questions. No one said it would be easy. Eventually we'll figure it out. Maybe we'll get lucky in this thread.
Tom

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Sergios
  6/7/2013 13:50 EST

Well said Tom. I too am interested in this answer. I know that social security can be deposited in an off shore bank but I don't know about private pension plans.

SnapperBruce
  6/7/2013 14:21 EST

The first thing is I am from the UK but I expect the banking system is similar.
I have kept my UK bank account so that my pension can be paid into it, for large ammounts I use an FX company which converts the money into Euros and transfers them to my Italian account, they make their money from the conversion so no fees, they can also set up a direct debit for money to be transfered on a regular basis.
For small ammounts I have a prepaid card which I can load over the internet, the exchange rate is no as good but again no fees.
You may have to establish a credit rating before you can get an Italian credit card.
I hope this helps a bit.
Ciao Bruce.

MAGICMAN
  6/7/2013 16:25 EST

Dial 39 country code with all phone numbers.
Banks & Banking


Add Listing


Info
Reference Information Pages

Banking in Italy

Information on opening an Italian bank account - what documents to provide - the credit and debit cards, payment methods cheques and more.




Banks & Banking - 24 Listings




Visit website
Full details...


Lloyds TSB International Premier International Account

Lloyds TSB International offers a range of international products and services in multiple currencies from every day banking to savings and investments. To help expats easily send money internationally, existing customers have fee-free money transfers.


Click here to see YOUR business in the featured position above!


Banca CR Firenze

All personal and corporate banking services including home banking. At Via Bufalini 6, 50122 Florence (FI).
Visit website
Tel: 055 261 21


Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena

English speaking consultants available for all your banking needs. Present throughout Italy and worldwide. A bank you can rely on with International thinking. Private and business banking, investment advice, mortgages and more. Call in today.
Visit website
Tel: 0577 294 160


Barclays

UK bank in Italy at Viale Minzoni Don Giovanni 9, 50129 Florence (FI).
Visit website
Tel: 055 5372 301


Barclays

Personal and corporate banking services. Current accounts, savings, mortgages and loans. At Viale Minzoni Don Giovanni 9, 50129 Florence (FI).
Visit website
Tel: 055 5372 301


BNL Florence

English speaking advice and accounts for foreigners at 6/N Via de' Cerretani, 50123, Florence (FI).
Visit website
Tel: 050 233 0440


BNL Florence

English speaking banking service for residents and non-residents at 33/35R Via Senese, 50124 Florence.
Visit website
Tel: 055 225 139


Findomestic Bank

Bank offering accounts to non-residents. Loan applications, car leasing and mortgages. Open Monday to Friday from 09;00-13:30 and 14:30-17:30. At: 27 Via Alamanni, 50123, Florence (FI).
Visit website
Tel: 055 273 1222


Intesa San Paolo Firenze

Full complement of private and corporate banking services at Via Bronzino 79/R, 50142 Florence (FI).
Visit website
Tel: 055 712 210


Intesa San Paolo Firenze

Banking accounts for residents and foreigners at 1 Piazza Di S. Maria Novella 1, 50123, Florence (FI).
Visit website
Tel: 055 282 619


Intesa San Paolo Lucca

Mortgages, personal loans, private banking and advice at 4 Piazza San Michele, 55100, Lucca (LU).
Visit website
Tel: 0583 9720


Intesa San Paolo Siena Branch

Private and business banking accounts for residents and non-residents at: 20/122 Via Montanini, 53100, Siena (SI)
Visit website
Tel: 0577 530031


Lloyds TSB International Premier International Account

Lloyds TSB International offers a range of international products and services in multiple currencies from every day banking to savings and investments. To help expats easily send money internationally, existing customers have fee-free money transfers.
Visit website

With Skype there's no excuse for not calling an Italian bank. one can also use other international call systems like Gboobovoip.

MAGICMAN
  6/7/2013 17:29 EST

This number is in Pisa, Tel: 050 233 0440 BNL , but listed in my last posy as Florence BNL.

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William Russell's private medical insurance will cover you and your family wherever you may be. Whether you need primary care or complex surgery, you'll have access to the best hospitals & doctors available. Unlike some insurers, we also include medical evacuation and mental health cover in our plans (except SilverLite). Get a quote from our partner, William Russell.
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whidden39
  6/7/2013 17:35 EST

As far as pension plans, many will make these transfers. fidelity Investments does this for rollover IRAs. A company pension plan may not -- but you probably can transfer to any investment house like Fidelity and as long as you authorize this type of transaction.(probably having an authorization on file before you leave for Italy)

Sergios
  6/7/2013 18:15 EST

Thank you, I'll look into it. The pension is the nys teachers.

whidden39
  6/8/2013 11:28 EST

NYS teachers -- if it's an annuity for life, I guess those payments can be directed to a US financial institution and then from there you're talking about ATM access in Italy or wire transfers to an Italian bank. If it's a 401-k type (I know teachers have something different, but similar), then you may be able to roll funds to an IRA at a US financial institution. Whatever works best. I bet they are not set up to send to other than a US institution. I checked out Lloyds TSB International suggested by Magicman here. They offer debit cards in different currencies (US & Euro) and you'll always be able to speak English. Still daunting, but at least I know about some other resources now. They also offer free trave insurance as a benefit; but US and Canada residents are excluded. BUT, when I move to Italy, I will be a permanent resident. I too have dual citizenship.

Sergios
  6/8/2013 11:48 EST

It's an annuity. I will explore some banks that may have international relationships with Italian banks. Meanwhile, I found that PayPal is a cheap way to transfer funds (as long as its person to person) between countries.

whidden39
  6/8/2013 12:10 EST

PayPal is good for small amounts and vey convenient when sending money to secure an accommodation in Italy (if host is signed up with PayPal). However, for International transfers, there is a fee of 0.5% - 2% of the amount transferred depending on country (I don't know what they charge for Italy). Even 0.5% on $10,000 will be $50 and that's no better than a normal bank wire transfer. Once again, you are pursuing the same info as I am. We need an expat workshop on international personal finances! Are we the only ones that want to do it smartly and not throw money out the window needlessly?

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William Russell's private medical insurance will cover you and your family wherever you may be. Whether you need primary care or complex surgery, you'll have access to the best hospitals & doctors available. Unlike some insurers, we also include medical evacuation and mental health cover in our plans (except SilverLite). Get a quote from our partner, William Russell.

William RussellWilliam Russell

William Russell's private medical insurance will cover you and your family wherever you may be. Whether you need primary care or complex surgery, you'll have access to the best hospitals & doctors available. Unlike some insurers, we also include medical evacuation and mental health cover in our plans (except SilverLite). Get a quote from our partner, William Russell.
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MAGICMAN
  6/8/2013 15:55 EST

This is a web site for foreigners living in Italy
AngloINFO Italy. Everything for expats moving to or living in Italy.

MAGICMAN
  6/8/2013 15:57 EST

Copy this into your search engine.
AngloINFO Italy

whidden39
  6/9/2013 08:42 EST

Thanks MAGICMAN. I bookmarked this site and will explore banking and other topics. It's like I'm learning to do things all over again -- but that is one of the reasons I find moving to Italy attractive. I think it's sometimes good to upset the apple cart and take a trip on another wagon for a change. LOL! I have stayed in one safe place for so long; it's time for a change.

Billklapp1
  6/16/2013 02:49 EST

This is not as hard as it seems. Americans are not permitted to hold dollar-denominated accounts in Italy. Thus, if you deposit a check drawn on your U.S. checking account into your Italian checking account, it is automatically converted into Euros. My bank, Banca Sella, does so at the then-current exchange rate, with no fee (or at least one so small that only a currency trader could detect it). I can then withdraw my money here with my Italian debit card, a check or a bonifico (bank transfer). Clearing time for U.S. checks probably varies greatly among banks, but my cash is available in Italy many days before my account is debited in the U.S. A second possibility: I have a checking account equivalent with Fidelity Investments into which I move spending money from time to time. I can use the debit card on that account to withdraw Euros from ATMs in Italy without transaction fees and at something very close to the prevailing exchange rate. An added advantage is that, if I do not need to keep $10,000 equivalent in my Italian checking account at any time during the year (and as I bought my house here many years ago, I have not needed to do so since the new reporting requirements came about), then I do not need to report my Italian checking account to the IRS because, in both scenarios, the overwhelming bulk of my retirement assets remains in the U.S.

Billklapp1
  6/16/2013 03:59 EST

On the microchip card point, don't waste a lot of time trying to find one in the U.S. that technology seems years away in the U.S. You can get Italian debit (Bancomat) cards and credit cards with the chip here easily. The big thing is establishing a strong banking relationship with a bank where the people in it actually come to know you. One way to do that is to have all of your recurring monthly bills (mortgage or rent, utilities, even property taxes) paid automatically from your Italian checking account. That way, the bank can see that you are a good credit risk, as it is not clear to me that they are likely to order up American credit reports. From day one, just on the basis of having moved a very large amount through the bank in order to buy a house, my bank covered overdrafts and treated it as a low- interest loan. In order to buy things online in Italy when my U.S. cards were not accepted (cell phone recharging is often a problem, and the need to have an Italian billing address sometimes the problem), I asked for an Italian Visa and got one in a few days with a 1,300 Euro limit. When I moved here and needed to use the card on a day-to-day basis, I asked for an increase to 3,000 Euro, and was given it on the spot by a bank teller. Not a lot of money, I know, but surely a lot easier than the process in the U.S. Also, the famous commercials notwithstanding, you can leave home without your American Express card. Nearly worthless in Italy, because of the high merchant fee. Even places that have the Amex sign in the windows usually have some sort of card reader "issue" that will keep them from taking your card. (Pretty clearly, the readers are programmed to reject Amex somehow.) Lastly, wire transfers are for one-shot movement of large amounts of money only. Not cost-effective otherwise...

Sergios
  6/16/2013 09:44 EST

Thank for this explanation. It is very helpful. Could you clarify what you mean by "$10,000 equivalent". Are you referring to the $10k withdrawal reporting requirement in the us?

whidden39
  6/16/2013 10:30 EST

It sounds like you've navigated very successfully. Thanks for sharing your experiences. They make a lot of sense. I think some of the angst is not really trusting US banks to begin with and then having to jump into the unknowns of an Italian banking relationship. Your story relieves some of this.

whidden39
  6/16/2013 10:30 EST

It sounds like you've navigated very successfully. Thanks for sharing your experiences. They make a lot of sense. I think some of the angst is not really trusting US banks to begin with and then having to jump into the unknowns of an Italian banking relationship. Your story relieves some of this.

whidden39
  6/16/2013 10:36 EST

A great reply with very useful advice. Learning all this has become critical since I am leaving my job in the states by summer's end and will spend a few months prepping the house for sale. Then it's house hunting in Puglia!

Billklapp1
  6/17/2013 04:07 EST

Referring to FATCA, FBAR and Form 8938. There is more accurate and detailed info on this available on this website, but my understanding is that, if at any time during the year my Italian checking account (for example) hits the equivalent of USD $10,000, I need to report the account to the IRS. At a $1.33/1 Euro exchange rate, the trigger would be 7,518.80 Euro. Another point for retirees: on the basis of my personal circumstances, I must pay Italian income tax and not U.S. tax pursuant to the terms of the U.S.-Italy tax treaty. I have not yet determined whether that will exempt me from the $10,000 account reporting requirement (I am guessing probably not, as I must file a U.S. return relating only to my Social security payments anyway), but will look at that if I exceed the threshold. I can tell you that, if you forsake U.S. residence (not citizenship, just permanent residence), you may not spend more than 30 days per year in the U.S. without subjecting yourself to potential double taxation. That may seem a little harsh, but Uncle Sam also imposes an exit tax on high net-worth individuals who elect to give up U.S. residence and pay taxes in a foreign residence. Finally, I note that my scenario does NOT apply to temporary ex-pats who are working abroad and generally keep paying U.S. taxes with a credit for foreign taxes paid.

Billklapp1
  6/17/2013 04:20 EST

After 2008, I share your distrust of U.S. banks. Italy has had its share of "banksters", too, but Italian privacy and banking laws put some amazingly tight restrictions on banks here, so trust is not really a concern. You can get nickeled and dimed pretty badly on bank fees, and after Italian legal requirements applicable to all are complied with, policies and practices of banks vary widely. My strategy lets me leave my assets in America and gives me the benefits of excellent customer service from Fidelity and instant access to my money here, along with a personal and helpful, if small-scale, banking relationship here. To be honest, every time that I pop my Fidelity debit card into an Italian ATM (ANY, by the way) and take out 500 Euro without any fees or vigorish on the exchange rate, it seems like a miracle of some sort!

A final note: in the wake of Monti's tenure as PM, you have to offer an explanation to the bank any time you withdraw more than 1,000 Euros in cash, this in an effort to stem Italy's underground economy, where payment in cash or barter avoids invoices and the payment of the 21% IVA value-added tax. The Italians tell me that "going on vacation" is the number one response!

Sergios
  6/17/2013 12:30 EST

Thank you. Very good information

emilym
  6/30/2013 17:14 EST

I bank at Bank of America, which is not the most well-liked but...I inquired about withdrawing my dollars from my checking account and getting Euros. They told me I could use my debit card at a BNL ATM with no transaction fee. Also, they have a travellers credit card in dollars with no transaction or conversion fee.

Billklapp1
  7/1/2013 04:34 EST

emilym, sounds like you found what you need. Once you are here, the absence of transaction and exchange fees is far more important than the bank's reputation! (And there are no major American banks whose reputations escaped the 2008 disaster that they created...)

squeegeetom
  7/26/2013 17:45 EST

I bank with BofA. I withdraw money using my BofA ATM card here. I use BNL because there is no transaction fee.

I have a local account through the Poste Italiane. No transaction fee when I withdraw money from one of their ATMs.

squeegeetom
  7/26/2013 17:46 EST

I bank with BofA. I withdraw money using my BofA ATM card here. I use BNL because there is no transaction fee.

I have a local account through the Poste Italiane. No transaction fee when I withdraw money from one of their ATMs.

Sergios
  3/19/2014 16:07 EST

I know it's been a while on this thread but I just spoke with somebody at Fidelity and got some information. Fidelity will wire funds internationally for $15. Their ATM card has no foreign transaction fee and they will reimburse all ATM charges. The cash limit on ATM is $500/day but they will do free cash advance upto $2,500/day (at a teller). The debit card has a $10k limit on spending per day.
Seems to me that this is the way to go.

LisaC1
  11/28/2016 18:56 EST

Does anyone know if this is true? It is a post on this forum from 2013.

" I can tell you that, if you forsake U.S. residence (not citizenship, just permanent residence), you may not spend more than 30 days per year in the U.S. without subjecting yourself to potential double taxation. That may seem a little harsh, but Uncle Sam also imposes an exit tax on high net-worth individuals who elect to give up U.S. residence and pay taxes in a foreign residence."

We are planning on moving to Italy to live full-time next fall. We will be going to the States every 6 months or so and to visit friends and family for a month at a time. time. We are dual Italian/US citizens and will be fiscal resident in Italy once we move. We will be selling our house in the States.

We certainly do not want to be subjected to dual taxation and would like to know how others have handled this?

Jergirl
  11/29/2016 00:56 EST

Yes this is the painful truth and my mouth is still bitter from swallowing that pill! One can be defined as a "US Person' through a number criteria. I left the states as a student in 1975 and have never worked there, but file income tax and FATCA every year. Have a look at the US Expat Tax Questions group on Facebook for the long version of this very sad story. Lots of accountants now have secure income because of the new laws. Even if you paid the 2k plus fee for renouncing your citizenship, you may still have financial ties to the US that will require you to file. Hoping this will change. BTW, I believe the majority of US persons living abroad are not compliant.

LisaC1
  11/29/2016 16:11 EST

Hi Jergirl,

I am not sure if I explained my question well. I understand the need to file a tax return in Italy and the US if fiscal resident in Italy. I don't have an issue with that. What I am unclear about is, if we are in the US for, say, 60 days or so a year, could we possibly be double taxed? I know all about the tax treaty but am not sure about the 30 day rule per year for the US.

Jergirl
  11/30/2016 10:01 EST

There is no double taxation. If you pay income tax in Italy, that is declared on US tax when you file, and it is deducted from what you would pay in the states. I don't live in Italy, but it is the same tax treaty. If your income is actually coming from the states, but you are declaring yourself as an Italian resident for income tax purposes.... wow... too complicated for me to comment on. Sorry I can't help, don't want to give out incorrect information. I just tried rereading this thread and my head is spinning.

Jergirl
  11/30/2016 10:06 EST

Also, someone said above that as soon as you have more than 10k in your account you need to report to the IRS. This sounds incorrect to me. Reporting your "worth" is FATCA and no one knows the consequences of these reports. It is just more info for them (not IRS). Me too, I moved some money between accounts and makes me look 3x richer than I am, as I declare the highest balance for each account. The 10k figure is for all accounts and other funds, etc. combined, not a threshold per account. Giving me a headache just writing about it.

rsetzer99
  11/30/2016 10:30 EST

The 30 day rule suggestion seems to be clouding the question. I've never heard of this, and it just seems to be confusing things.

If you are a US citizen, the US does not care if you spend zero days within the States. You still have to pay US taxes on your worldwide income. There is no double taxation ever because of the treaty. If your income is from a US source, you pay US taxes and Italian taxes, but get a credit for US taxes. If your income is Italian sourced, you pay Italian taxes and US taxes and get a credit for Italian taxes paid. (The most simple explanation because there are additional rules which are not gone into here).

The original current question also asked about "exit tax on giving up residence." In this regard, again, you were steered wrong. Someone confused "Residence" with "Citizenship". You can live overseas and be considered a resident of Italy, and keep your American citizenship forever.

Finally, speaking to the 182 day rule. I will reply specifically under the assumption that you are retired. You can stay in Italy 90 days without having to get an extended stay visa. Then have to leave for 90 days before you can return for a new 90 day stay. If you did this, and, this is important, did no work while in in Italy, even if that work was over the internet for a company back in America, you would not be subject to Italian taxes and would not even file. The situation you have laid out is different however as you say you will live in Italy and may trips back to the US to visit. My guess then is you mostly likely have an Elective Resident visa, and will be applying for the Permesso di Siggorno to get your Italian residence card. All the answers you have been receiving on your question would seem to be making this assumption as well.

rsetzer99
  11/30/2016 10:41 EST

It also just occurred to me that you may be thinking of the term "double taxation" in a completely different context. You might be thinking of it in the context of having to file tax returns to both countries instead of the way accountants define it as having to pay full tax burden to both countries on the same money.

If you live in Italy more than half the year (183) days, You pay tax on your worldwide income both both Italy and the US. It is not considered double because you get credit for tax paid to one country against what you owe to the second. But yes, you have to pay tax to both countries and file tax returns to both countries. Because of the extra forms, and the reconciliation needing to be done between the two, Almost nobody does it themselves.

rsetzer99
  11/30/2016 10:48 EST

There are two regulations FACTA and FBAR. FBAR is the aggregate 10K balance at any time reporting requirement. You can report this online and it is due by June 30th the following year. It need not be a source of anxiety. Basically, its just another piece of paper.

This IRS chart breaks down the rules in a pretty easy to follow manner.
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/comparison-of-form-8938-and-fbar-requirements

LisaC1
  11/30/2016 21:00 EST

Hi Jergirl,

Yes, that will be our situation. We will become tax residents in Italy but our income will be coming from the States. It is the 30 day issue that has me confused.

LisaC1
  11/30/2016 21:09 EST

Rsetzer99,

Thanks so much for your responses to my questions. Yes, the 30 days allowed stay in the US was what was really confusing.

We are dual US/Italian citizens, thus will not need a permesso to live in Italy. It took 4 years of work but it was well worth it!

So, from what I now understand, we will file income returns in both countries (individual returns in Italy), pay taxes in the US on our income, dividends, etc and then pay the additional sums owed to Italy, including the wealth tax. Is this correct?

There is also a possibility that my husband may work a bit part-time as he graduated from the U. of Pisa Faculty of Veterinary Medicine and is fully licensed to practice in Italy. We'll have to see once we are there. I sure don't want to make our tax situation even more complicated!

maluza86
  12/1/2016 01:59 EST

The 30 day rule I believe everyone is referring to has to deal with Earned Income Wages a US citizen earns while working outside the US. If you work outside the US as a resident of another country the first $103,000 of Earned Income is excluded from US taxes. The key term being Earned Income.

It is not pertinent to the situation everyone is talking about here as pensions, dividends, 401Ks, etc are not considered Earned Income.

rsetzer99
  12/1/2016 10:14 EST

Yes, you have it correct.

Doing a bit of work won't make it really any more complicated. It's the same, but just flows in reverse.

There is a Foreign Income Exclusion available, but, since the taxes in Italy on income earned in Italy almost certainly be higher than what the US tax on them would be, the credit for tax paid to Italy would leave you owning nothing to the US. Just a few more numbers on the forms is all.

LisaC1
  12/1/2016 12:52 EST

Maluza86,

Thanks so much for the clarification. The 30 day discussion was very worrying. I thought initially that we would actually be taxed twice in that scenario and am now clear in my understanding of the law.

LisaC1
  12/1/2016 12:54 EST

Rsetzer99,

Thanks very much! I wish there were a better way to respond to each individual post.

whidden39
  12/2/2016 11:42 EST

Please note new deadline to file the FBAR form for the 2016 tax year -- April 15, 2017 (no longer June 30)

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