Jerry and Yvonne I look forward to the replies you get. I will be going to FLorence in October to scout out that area.

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Hi, I can suggest Lucca hills ..in the green and close to the mailn tuscany city ...cheap and wonderful for living !
www.cardosoholiday.it

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00abuse

Spain has Bullfighting...appalling... would never go there because of that!

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Thanks, I didn't consider that but it does give me food for thought.

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While appalling to some, it is purely a personal issue. Remember, it is part of their culture, which should be respected. Discounting Spain simply because there are bullfights is, in my opinion, very narrow-minded.

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10abuse

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Point well take.

Thus far I have not received any input on why one country over the other; I guess no one has any information or thoughts on it???

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There are very few people with experience of the type that is required to make an informed statement about "which is better". This is a personal decision with far reaching consequences, do you really what a bunch of strangers telling you where to go? I suggest renting furnished apartments for several months in each of the locations that you are interested in and then choose from your own experience.

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Corruption in government is everywhere, it depends on the level you are dealing with it and whether you can afford it.

Both countries are EU countries. Thus cost of living are similar. For instance, Italy is rated 5% higher than Germany, Spain maybe 5% less.

With RE is comes down to the very object. In both countries good deals can be found due to the economic crisis.

Both countries have a good infrastructure, Italy a bit better as it is more populated.

Spain's landscape (in Andalucia) did not appeal to me, too barren and dry.

Although all my family speak Spanish, we favour Italy.

All the best.
Janin

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Janin, thank you so much for your insights, it is appreciated. I agree parts of Spain have the California desert feel, not for me.

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I have tried Southern Spain and found there was a lot of crime. They would rob villas with people in them or throw gas at night into the villas to make you pass out and then rob you. I will not say who was doing this kinds of things other than it was not the locals or the spanish. Very sad for Spain as it is a beautiful place. If you buy there be careful there were a lot of homes built without planning permission. I would recommend that if you are going to live in any country with economic crisis, live near or in a city that makes money or know how to make it. I hope I explained that right. All the best on your new journey!

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Hey guys…I lived in SoCal for 30 years but then I got smart and moved to Italy. I had lived in Spain for a couple of years during the Dubya era and, for my money, Italy is best.

Corruption is not an absolute thing; in fact, it’s fairly subjective. But when you get down to brass tacks, the Italian corruption doesn’t affect expats or citizens as much as those in Spain. For reasons too numerous to get into here, Spain’s govt and monetary system incl. national banks are, in a word, horrendous. Italy’s is more internalized and affects their relationship with the rest of the EU. I can go into more detail if you send me a private message (I’ve studied this).

I could give you the usual pap about weighing your options, likes, dislikes, and such, but Italy affords the traveler and expat more opportunities for exploration, movement within the country, and eventually settling down. The only thing that is a real pain is a driver’s license acquisition, but I still have my US one anyway.

The last thing I will tell you is that, when I talk to expats all over EU is that many of them get all giddy about being over here and want to “relinguish” their assorted documentations, even to the point of renouncing their citizenship in some cases. This is dumb.

Here is what I do: Even though I have a home here in Florence, I love my ability to travel and keep my options open. It is so cheap to travel here in Europe that I feel I want to get up and go whenever I want. I used to go the “Permesso di Soggiorno” route - that is, get “permission” to live here in Italy for a year, then I would have to renew thru an embassy and that was a pain. Spain has sort of the same thing.

So, I leave the country every 90 days or so - I have business elsewhere, anyway, so it’s no big deal. I just make sure one of my stops isn’t another Schengen country.

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Spain is the answer to you 3 questions!!! I lived 4 years in Spain and now it is one year in Lucca, Italia.......nothing to compare!!! Bureocracy is a must here in Italy!!! A simple example, i have italian citizenship, and when in Spain it took me 1 day to get the city residence, here in Italy i had to wait 6 months!!!! And every public office here in Italy is the same!!! The day to day living is cheaper in Spain than here. Apart from that, depend where in Italy but here in Lucca inhabitans are not friendly or helpful. They are terrible cold. On the other hand, Spanish people is exactly the opposite!

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It really does get down to personal choice. We too are considering Lucca or Arezzo. My first priority is good transport links, Rolling countryside (not flat) and not a small town.So the above choices fit that
My dream places are Fiesole or Rome but probably not practical.If you rsearch here you will get lots of info and I consider the information provide by posters here honest and reliable.
Also try the british expat sites as they have lots of valuable insights.
However if you read posts by Jackster and Sergious on this site they have posted about their situations which may be of interest to you.I read everything and then take my research that bit further. There is so much to consider especially tax and health care being the main ones.
Good Luck
Regards
Velvet

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My recommendation, and I may be a little partial, is to consider Puglia, beautiful towns less expensive.

If you want an international city with rail, then consider Ostuni, absolutely wonderful city, or Brindisi, rail and ferry, Lecce. If you don't need direct rail, check out many of the towns around that vicinity...Brindisi, Carovigno, Martina Franca, etc.

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maluza86 I do not mean to cause offence but why does the south of italy get a bad rap when investigating living in Italy. Everything I have read about the south makes comments on the lack of infrastructure, and more of who you know not what you know, Articles often say that living in the south is harder than the north of Italy. The one issue that is continually pointed out is that it is cheaper to live in the south. Although it has appealed to me because it is warmer than northern Italy.
The articles and books or whatever you research implies that the south doesn't have all the mod cons of the north although never gives a comparison of apples with apples . I don't have a view as I have never been in the south of Italy so can't really comment but would be interested in your views.

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I have been living in Puglia permanently for about four months, although I travelled here on vacation several times before. I bought a house here near Locorotondo and Fasano. I would say the most challenging aspect is the language because few people speak English here and I am having a hard time finding an English speaking doctor. The good part is that my Italian is getting better every day by virtue of a forced immersion. I chose Puglia for the warm climate and the warm people who are not jaded with tourism. I find the Pugliese to be patient and kind -- especially with foreigners. The cost of living is low and the food is simple and nutritious. The beaches are beautiful, and I am usually content to find a rocky cove on the Adriatic side. There are elegant beach clubs too that you can either pay by the day or with a seasonal membership. The ancient olive trees that cover the landscape and the munchkin-like trulli structures lend an enchanting atmosphere. Puglia is surely a viable option for those seeking a rewarding Italian experience off the usual tourist map.

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Hey Velvet,

No offense taken, at all.

I would say, maybe compared to Roma, Milano or another urban Northern city, the South does not have everything to offer...if you mean by that, shopping malls on every corner, hectic lifestyles and very, very urban cities...and crime to go with it.

The South is very more relaxed and agricultural to this day. In fact that is the beauty...old world charm and getting to know the locals. Puglia is the largest growing area for international tourism and has the second best beach in Italy behind Rimini. I, for one, came to Italy for the relaxed atmosphere.

As for amenities and infrastructure it's all here. You can get just about anything anywhere. There are big malls, if that's your thing, just not in abundance, and chain grocery stores. But I prefer to go to the local macelleria, frutta vendelo, caseificio, pasticeria, etc to buy everything fresh and they all know me by name and we chat overtime I go in, which is sometimes 3-4 times a week.

The roadways are fine, especially the autostrada. While, yes it may take some time to get things accomplished and there seems to be still a bit of who you know...it is no different in that regard, than when I lived in rural southern Georgia USA.

As I said previously there are rails in the bigger cities to get you anywhere in Italy. For me, I live in San Vito Dei Normanni, a beautiful old city that once had a US Air Force Base, so they really love Americans and Expats. A vibrant Expat community exists with Brits and some Americans. Most expats I know split their time between Expats and locals and often most are co-joined. San Vito is 15 minute drive to Ostuni where I can get on a train and be in Rome 4.5hrs later. While it may be true, trying to get a taxi from San Vito to the train station in Ostuni may be near impossible, for me that's not an issue. A bigger city like Brindisi, has normal busses and taxis, again just depends on what you are looking for.

The summers in the South are incredible and the beaches are gorgeous, just don't plan on getting anything done during the 1st two weeks of August or between the hours of 1:30 - 5pm as all local stores close down (but the chain grocery store is open). So with proper planning it's not an issue at all.

There are some other beautiful other old cities, Matera, Santa Maria de Leuca, Otronto, Lecce...and late fall through early spring is very slow.

In the summer time, you can go to a different festival almost every night of the week within an hour or so and most towns have two or three different ones throughout the summer. And being agricultural there is never a shortage of fresh fruit and vegetables. It's now olive harvest season where the trees are dropping all their olives and the local farmers are gathering and making the most incredible olive oil. Not the so called "Extra Virgin" olive oil that is exported. Italy does not export real "Extra Virgin" Olive oil, read all the labels...the really good stuff is kept in country.

And there are plenty of local vineyards and wineries as well...with some really great table wines...not one's you'd store or that will get better with age, but one's made to drink daily!

We also joined a local Harley Davidson chapter and regularly ride with and have a wonderful time with the group. There are theaters, concerts, cinemas parks etc. I sometime get the impression people think Italy is a third world country...believe me, it's not. I spent 26yrs in the military and have been to numerous third world countries.,,Southern Italy, no!

I think there are bureaucratic issues throughout Italy and probably more so in the South, but the pros far outweigh the cons...at least for me.

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Whidden 39, I agree with everything and love Puglia immensely. The only caveat is the English speaking part. If you go to a bigger city, such as Ostuni, Lecce, Otranto, there are a lot of Italians that speak English.

Also, what I've found is just about all specialist Doctors, Neurologist, Rheumatologists, Cardiologists, Orthopedics, etc., speak English to some extent and have been to Medical training in the US. So if you can get by the first hurdle your local doctor you are good to go. OR you can always go to a private clinic and pay.

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Just about everything Maluza86 said about puglia is also true about Sicily. There are issues. Here in Palermo the infrastructure is ok, there are plenty of stores and malls. There is more than enough history and scenic beauty. However there are things I don't like, but I'm sure that would be true about any place in Italy. What I would like you to consider is something that has not been discussed. Italian wannabes from the west know Italy from their visits, from Italian "things" in their own countries, books, movies and many other ways. Italy is a diverse country and people on the outside know Italy as a conglomeration of that diversity, with emphasis on the more visited areas.
When one selects a particular location to settle into, you are no longer getting the idealized Italy, but a specific area with a distinct culture. Unless you are in a major city, Rome, Milan, you're not getting Italy, you're getting Lucca, or Fiesoli or Siracusa, etc. For me that is fine.....for a while. I miss what I am missing and I fully intend to explore the various "sub-cultures" of Italy and the rest of Europe. The scallops of Normandy are available in Palermo if you search and are willing to pay, but they are not fresh from the sea. The ham here is ok but it's not the Spanish Jambon or the Culatello of Parma. Sicilian wines are excellent but so are the wines in other places, but they are different and that difference is important.
What I am saying is that life here is definitely worth exploring and experiencing. If you are happy with a particular region, go for it but don't be prejudiced about the south. The Italians themselves are but those who come, find that it is better than they expected. Most of the tourists here in Sicily are northern Italians, French and Spanish. However, if you are like me, don't put down permanent roots and be free to explore the greater Italy and Europe. Sorry for any errors above, writing on an iPad is not ideal.

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Sergios,
Well explained, and considered opinion. I live both in the north and South of Italy, and find both experiences different, but equally as enjoyable and inspiring. I do appreciate however, that two people can share the same experience, but can have opposing views after the event. Maybe to be content in a location, we all have different requirements, which makes the North or South question more difficult to answer.

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Thanks guys for the detailed explanations. Sounds to me like the south has as much to offer.
Have a good day

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It was Minturno Italy for us. We obtained our permesso di sorggiono with no problems from the officials we dealt with. It is even easier to get your citizenship. The housing is cheap, it never freezes. We are on the main railway between Rome and Naples. Beaches, mountains, nature preserves and historical sites are all close at hand. We would choose Italy all over again. Ciao

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Wow guys these towns look amazing. Ostuni San Vito Dei Normanni and Minturno have caught my eye. Ostuni may be a little ahead only because it is bigger as we are not small town people. So could we live in Ostuni for 12 months without a car?
Where we live now winters get down to minus 7 celsius but a lot of sunny days.. How does that compare. I have looked at the weather sites but don't really believe them. My darling husband really feels the cold so we would have to rent a place with great heating. He also suffers staying in old damp places so I would be looking for an apartment in a relatively modern complex. Once again thanks as I will spend the next few days researching these areas, and any advice would be gladly accepted.
Regards
Velvet

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Forgot to say we are happy to live without shopping malls and we don't have to be near the beach

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Velvet,

Ostuni is a beautiful and international city...but like most southern cities seasonal. Seasonal meaning it swells in the warmer spring-early fall months, but there is still a lot going on during the winter. It is built on a hill and overlooks the Adriatic which is about 5km due east. It is called La Citta Bianca as most of the old building are all white, quite a lovely spectacle, especially at night.

You can definitely live there without a car, but it will be a little tougher to travel to the other small towns, Carovigno, San Vito, Ceglie etc, although busses do run from town to town, so it is possible.

There is a major railway in Ostuni, and I have taken the train from there many times, to destinations in the North and further South, you just need to be adventurous.

I live in San Vito Dei Normanni, and a lot of days I don't even get in my car...I walk to get bread, fruit, vegetables and there is a local market on Monday mornings. San Vito is a town of about 20,000 and swells to about 40,000 in the summer. There is also a vibrant expat community, mainly Brits, but some Americans, French, Germans as well.

The other great thing, each town has it's own market on different days. Ostuni has a very big market on Saturday mornings that draws people from many different towns, year round.

For me personally, I have ties to San Vito Dei Normanni, my wife is from there and 2 of our kids live in SV with 3 grandkids. Also, after moving around for 26 years in the military, we wanted to settle down. We do travel a lot out of San Vito, but we moved all our household goods and are just finishing an attic apartment we purchased.

So you'll see many different opinions and views and every one provides very sage advice...relevant to their situation. You have those that don't want to put down roots and just travel or move every year, and then the opposite end of the spectrum, like me. So, take it all in and decide what's right for you and your situation. I do recommend renting a place, as do most everyone, especially if you are unsure of the areas.

Don't hesitate to ask any other questions and I am more than glad to help where possible, either on the forum or a PM.

Glad to give you more info

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00abuse

I have wintered in Italy for the last 6 years and speak adequate Italian. I would listen to your wife and choose Spain for and endless list of reasons.
Inland from Malaga would be my choice.

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00abuse

Your statements are as easily applied to Italy.

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00abuse

A very late comment. Isn't culture the reason one chooses a country? The barbaric 'culture' of bull fighting says a lot about the people who condone it. It also says a lot about the tourists who choose to visit and pay to see such 'culture'. Italy all the way for me!

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Thanks for your comments on Puglia. We are in the process of, after living in Ireland for 11 months where the weather has defeated us, deciding whether to follow the dream of Italy or take the safe option of returning to Australia. We have seen a couple of properties about 4kms out of Ostuni and are hoping to get over there in the next couple of months. The climate and food very much appeal as we are pescatarians but were a little concerned about facilities (we are in our mid to late 60s, in good health but one never knows). We also do not speak Italian but intend to learn! Shopping malls etc are the last thing we want. Thanks again, your comments have been very helpful.

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The above referred to Maluza86's comments. Hope to head Ostuni's way in March to see for ourselves ?

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I am sure you will fall in love with Ostuni/Puglia. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any further questions.

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Wish I could give you a positive answer. We too have traveled both areas several times. We found Spain harder to get around in without a car, twice held up at the airport and missed our plane while they went through our things, found parking when driving very difficult in towns of any size and little or no parking in many towns. We have debated this a couple of months and now decided it will be Italy. Prices similar, it appears to be fairly easy to get in after talking to the Italian Embassy where we now live in Ireland, closer by train, ferry, or car if you have one, to so many other places in Europe. Not sure exactly where yet, heading east and north of Rome first of February to look at some of the towns there we haven't been to. Hope to move by April at the latest. Lived 3 years in Cuenca, Ecuador and a year in Ireland, but tired of wind and rain, even in what they call the sunny SE of Ireland.

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I know Italy but I don't know Spain. Both countries have their problems; I'd say that Spain may be a little cheaper ON AVERAGE. That means that a small Italian town may be cheaper than Madrid or Barcelona. By the way, if you understand Italian better than you speak it, that means that YOU DON'T SPEAK IT!!! Not to worry, I'm in LA and I tutor Italian.

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00abuse

Florence?? I grew up there; It's not cheap, it may be the most expensive city in Italy......

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00abuse

I'm with you.....I adore Puglia. Wonderful people.

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Beautiful there, but a bit too far north and rain for me. We are going further south.

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00abuse

Puglia is on our list to check out!

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Hi, I am new to this forum but have lived in both Spain and Italy over my lifetime and we are now moving to Southeastern Sicily. I just want to compliment Sergios on these sensitive observations. The bureaucracy in either place can be daunting, it boils down to the connections you make, the people you meet, the mishaps you inevitably encounter and the little joys that make a place meaningful and memorable to you.

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00abuse

Thank you

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