rsetzer99
9/29/2016 11:01 EST
It seems mostly we just hear about unsuccessful applications for Elective Residence Visa's. I thought I would post my successful story and list what I all provided as a frame of reference for others.
We went to the Chicago Consulate. 11AM appointment. It was not particularly busy.
First - We made two mistakes, that were overcome in typical Italian fashion. When one person says "Not possible", quietly see if someone else says "Possible"
If applying as a couple, make two appointments. This was not at all obvious from the application instructions on the form or the Consultate website. The person at the first check in window said "Not possible" I figured I might as well have mine processed as long as we where there. The gentleman behind the Visa window carefully went over my package which had documentation for both myself and my wife. He nodded and circled things. Then he pushed my wifes application from the packet through the slot and said she should sign and asked for her passport. Then he pushed mine through.
Second, even though the Consulate site says Cash or Money Order, take only money order. Again we lucked out. I had only one money order (which I had to run to the 7-11 to get) But when I said I had cash for a second, he gave a little Italian shrug and said, ok, it is the end of the month, it will be fine.
Dress nice, smile. If they like you, no's can end up as sure, it's ok.
Our package.
We wrote a nice cover letter. We avoided cliche reasons such as lifestyle and wanting to learn Italian. We focused on our existing connections to Italy. We had and exchange student 20 years ago and have remained close friends with him and his family. We went to his wedding, they made sure we sat in the family section. We wrote not about desire for lifestyle, but embrace of the challenge a new life in Italy will present.
In my financial section I began with a summary of sources of income. I had a spread sheet showing how those sources would provide a monthly income (combined) of $6300 for a 20 year window, and a second senario showing $7000 a month for the first 5 years. I then had my backup showing sources and balances. My wifes pension has an accelerated feature until she is eligible for social security. I highlighted the accelerated early retirement amount. No need to make it complicated unless they ask for detail. I included my 401K Statement showing 310K balance. Straightforward. Printouts from Social Security showing our monthly benefit. I highlighted the big number of the front page which is the age 65 benefit. Again, no need to make it complicated, if they ask, I will freely volunteer that I intend to take it at 62 and will get a different amount. Then bank statements. They were from the end of August statements and showed 90K in the bank. My house purchase documents show that our house purchase was final on September 16th. Again, if they asked if that changed my bank balance, I would be truthful and indicate that 60K has been used for final payment on the house.
Lastly, I had a final section showing my airline reservations, health insurance confirmation, copy of marriage license.
Our total time was just about 40 min. He asked a few details about arrival date in Schengen zone as he was putting in effective dates. Then he started to tell me that when we arrived in Italy we need to make sure we register at the Questura within 8 days, and then begin our Permisso process. Finally a bit of small talk. Aburzzo? Belissimo. If I ever pass by Casalanguida I will ask where the Americani live. I am sure everyone will know.
Other than a little hiccup thinking we would have to come back a second time because we needed two appointments, it was routine. We organized our documents with tabs between sections, and high lighted all pertinent information. We had slightly more than what the Consulate checklist showed, but not too much more. There is a fine line between the Italian love of documents and just throwing paper around. I had, in reserve in my briefcase additional documents such as full health insurance policy, three years of tax returns. Just in case. None were needed.
So, in summary.
Dress nice, good into letter (He did spend time reading this very carefully) and organized documents. There was no hesitation at all regarding our showing a sustained $6300 a month income for two people. It seemed like we were well in excess of what his minimum expectation. I did not ask for detail. When a bureaucrat says yes, one questions the wisdom of asking them to explain their decision. Your mileage may vary, but I post this to give others some kind of frame of reference.
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DoppioCittadino
9/29/2016 11:46 EST
Congrats!
So, $75,600 annual income for the two of you - that is in the ballpark of the numbers people have been quoting for ER visas. I wonder how much lower you might have gotten away with...
Also, was the $75,600 ($6,300 per month) hard income without touching your 401k balance, or was it comprised of hard income PLUS 401k withdrawals?
Just curious...
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rsetzer99
9/29/2016 13:15 EST
No, that involved using my 401K. Over a ten year period, using a 5% rate of return, my balance was shown to be drawn down just over 100K.
And yes, the 70(ish) thousand per year is sometime confirmed. I have however seen on this, and another forum, people posting in despair that higher amounts, and higher "just cash in hand" amounts were demanded. I cannot judge how much less they might have let me get away with, but considering the documents were only paged through in a routine manner, it seemed clear the official was well satisfied.
As many others have stated, it is their country and they set the rules. I am not what would be considered wealthy in the US. My wife and I are both professionals. Accountant and college instructor. My 401K is within the means of most anyone who was in a plan for about 20 years. Social Security would be similar for all, and my wife's pension is a State teachers pension. From other American expats I have met in Italy, my situation does not seem uncommon. Perhaps it is because professionals may be more drawn to an overseas retirement,
I do not recall if this was this forum, or another, where a couple recently posted about their rejection. They had fully transferable pensions. I don't think they listed amounts. Another one I recall said they had first had rejection but then were accepted when they moved around some money so that the ready cash in bank amount was boosted.
Because the expected criteria can be opaque before one is standing at the window, I feel it is useful to be able to find reported benchmarks that allow people to gain as much information as possible as they approach the process for themselves.
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DoppioCittadino
9/29/2016 16:24 EST
Thanks for the reply.
It is so seldom that people come back with final results, especially positive outcomes. Your detailed write-up will be a help to others for years to come.
While I am not directly impacted - I have dual citizenship (hence, "Doppio Cittadino") - I do follow along on matters of ER visas out of curiosity.
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velvet
9/30/2016 03:45 EST
I too find this topic interesting. Just goes to show though the difference in countries. We have been told by the consulate here that we must have an income of 31,000 euros for my husband and as I am a dependent another 7.000 euros for me. This amount is not an issue for us but works out to about $53.000 Aussie dollars.
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JacksterJam
9/30/2016 08:26 EST
Velvet, that works out to about =/-$40,000 U.S. dollars per year, which is more realistic and reasonable, eh? I'd be interested to know how Canadians are fairing on the topic of required income when applying for an elective residence visa.
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rsetzer99
9/30/2016 11:01 EST
Of the few US Consulates that quote a figure, the LA Consulate says 31.200 EU a year. It does not expand on what they require for a couple. Logically one would not assume doubling that, but examples exist that one should not demand a strictly logical process.
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JacksterJam
9/30/2016 11:15 EST
rsetzer99, it's so difficult to say. Each consulate seems to be using different numbers. A couple in Miami just recently had to prove an $80,000/year income as a couple when they applied for their E.R. visas. When I contacted the Ministero dell'Interno about the matter, they sent the only income chart they have issued, but it doesn't include how much income folks applying for an E.R. visa need to prove. They also said that each consulate is given wide latitude when making those decisions. All one can do is apply to the consulate that serves their area and ask.
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rsetzer99
9/30/2016 11:57 EST
And in addition to that, we are left to contemplate if they wish to have proof of a certain number for a certain number of years, or forever?
If I had to guess, I had a feeling that it was a number of factors. We dressed in a fairly formal manner. We had multiple sources of income (some rather tiny, but still). Our documents were organized in a concise package. I replied in Italian only when I was confident I was speaking it correctly. (I did make one mistake though. He asked if that was my wife sitting in the room, and I accidentally said, Si, Mia Marito (He looked at me funny said Moile?) I instantly realized I had said Husband instead of Wife, smiled sheepishly, nodded and said Ah, Si, Sto Imparando (I am learning). There were three people in the office with him and they all gave a little laugh. It felt like any tension was gone and I was now viewed favorably as a person and not just paperwork.
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Giovannina
3/24/2017 16:04 EST
I am curious about your cover letter. Some consulates require a cover letter, but, Chicago doesn't. Did you just decide it was better than not?
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rsetzer99
3/25/2017 06:03 EST
The Consulate officer read our letter carefully and did not seem surprised that it was there. After reading our letter, he nodded and said "I agree", so some statement in our letter. (We presume it was a statement about how close Italian friends always make you feel like family). It seemed the interview proceeded at a much more relaxed manner. He went through the documents at a slow pace, but asked no questions about them. Just circled numbers he felt were important. Then he started a little small talk about where we would be living. Small talk is always a good sign.
So, required? Maybe not, but it did seem to set the stage.
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JacksterJam
3/25/2017 11:51 EST
Giovannina, I also had to submit a cover letter (S.F. consulate), and it was carefully read. Even if not required, it couldn't hurt and the extra effort might be well worth it. Mine led to a bit of small talk to help the interviewer get a better sense of who I am and my future plans. It was a very pleasant exchange.
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JacksterJam
3/25/2017 12:55 EST
John, my grandparents immigrated from Italy, and I still have cousins living in Italy. I talked about that, and my many years of travel to Italy, and the friendships I formed in Italy as a result of that travel, as well as why I waited until retirement to make the move. I did not go the citizenship route for a number of reasons, and although I didn't include that in my letter, I was asked about it during our conversation, as well as a few other things. I wasn't "gushy" or over the top about it all, just straightforward and friendly.
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rsetzer99
3/25/2017 13:54 EST
For mine, I also tried to emphasize a personal connection. I wrote our a exchange student who spent a year with us about 15 years earlier, and how we had remained close friends since. We went to his wedding the year before, and his family even insisted we sit up front in the family section. In addition I discussed my interest in history and the opportunity of explore that interest up close and personal.
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wineknight73
3/28/2017 11:36 EST
Jackster Jam..I am in SF but have not as yet visited the Consulate. Did they give you a number in SF on required income?
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JacksterJam
3/28/2017 13:07 EST
No, they didn't. They just said "substantial monthly income," but never stated a minimum dollar amount. While the S.F. website is one of the most detailed and useful, they don't commit to anything that would tie them down, so to speak. I found the staff very helpful and wonder if they could give you a "ballpark" number if you called or emailed; they were very responsive to an email I sent with a question on a different matter, so they might be willing to give you more information. Of course, that was at least four years ago, so I don't know if the staff has changed, or if they are still willing to reply to emails. Might be worth a try. Good luck!
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