Hi Ed,

From what I understand, if you are under 183 days, you will not be subject to Italian income taxes until 2018. We have the same situation but are dual citizens. We will be moving over in September 2017.

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I recognize the 183 days, however, I'm likely to arrive a bit short and I was hoping that until I get my Visa I would be considered a nonresident. Possibly I will have to wait arrive until after 183 days have past before I arrive. Thanks for your reply. Ed

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something to consider... the EU uses a process whenever a non-EU passport enters and tracks the days in the EU. When you leave, the immigration officer will check total days you were in the EU. Because I normally travel on a one-way ticket (I never know precisely when I will return) i have to use my Italian passport when inbound into Italy. Without an entry by a non-EU passport, no record of my entry is recorded. While this makes you "invisible" for length-of-stay issues, you need to be careful when leaving. If you present a US passport at departing airport, they will not be able to match up the entry. You need to leave with the same passport you entered with... something to be filed for future use...

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Don't take this as the letter of the law but... I don't believe that you will be required to apply for a permesso di soggiorno. The reason for the doubt is that you are permitted to stay with your italian wife according to EU law. However, since you married recently, I am not all that sure about your status in Italy. What I mean is that for you to be recognized as an italian through marriage, you must be married for 2 years in italy or 3 years outside of italy. During that time if you want to have health coverage you will need to establish residency. To get that residency you will need, I think, the permesso. But I'm not sure. Perhaps somebody else has that answer. However, that leads to your tax questions. If you don't have residency, you are not liable for taxes. So its a tradeoff.

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Also, since your wife is italian, you don't need the visa.

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First of all, do not misinterpret the 183 day rule.

If you are legally resident in Italy for greater than 182 days of the calendar year, then your worldwide income for the entire year is taxable in Italy.

Now, read this carefully: if you legally resident for less than 183 days, then the income earned during the time you were legally resident is taxable in Italy; only the income earned during the remainder of the calendar year is not taxable.

Read it again to be sure you understand what I just said.

As to when you become "resident", I believe it is the day you file for, and get a receipt, your PdiS (Permesso di Soggiorno). Something which you must do within a very short time of arriving in Italy, by the way.

The days of "cheating" the tax man are long gone.

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Thanks for the input. The last time was in Italy we went to a Sportivo (small Italian gov. office) and they told us roughly samething. That I couldn't be denied access, I'm not sure I would risk. For example I know if I buy a one way ticket and show up at the airline desk they (in US) will want to see a visa. I alway carry my marriage paperwork, but I never tried to use it. Secondly, this agency told me to apply for a permesso di soggiorno within 48 hours upon my arrival when I arrive to stay permanently. To make even more confusing my commercialista in Padova told me to wait until Sept and also act like tourist as much as possible to pay for things (credit card, not establishing a bank account, which I already have). Thanks again. E

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DoppioCittadino thanks. This is helpful. I concur about the significance paying taxes, regardless the country. I want to follow the rules. Just to be sure I might come an go one more time and not file my permesso di soggiorno until Sept. thanks again. Ed

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Go to this page: http://vistoperitalia.esteri.it/home/en#BMQuestionario

For "Reason for your stay" select Family Reasons.

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There is a tendency to confuse the requirements of a long term visa stay and staying in italy as a citizens or the spouse of a citizen. Doppio, as the spouse of a citizen the questioner has a right to stay with his wife. He is not required to obtain a permesso within 8 days, as a non citizen is required to. My wife does not have a permesso and she is legally in italy. I went to the questura to make an appoint for her to get a permesso after 18 months in Italy and there was no problem.

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Doppio that link is for "family'. There is a difference between aunts and uncles and spouses.

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From Farnesina:
I am getting married to an Italian in Italy, what visa do I apply for?
Italian law does not provide for a visa for matrimony, so the type of visa you would apply for would be a tourist visa. See the Visa Database.

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Doppio,

"Now, read this carefully: if you legally resident for less than 183 days, then the income earned during the time you were legally resident is taxable in Italy; only the income earned during the remainder of the calendar year is not taxable."

So, if I understand this correctly (and we are also dual citizens), you are saying that we will be responsible for any income earned from September through December 2017 outside of Italy, but not our worldwide income for 2017? This means that we will be taxed on all dividends and income outside of Italy? I don't now how the income from investments for a 4 month period is even figured out. We are not drawing from our IRA's yet, but I thought that I read that IRA's are not subject to worldwide income taxes. Do you know if this is correct? We are moving over in September and establishing residency.

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Doppio,

"Now, read this carefully: if you legally resident for less than 183 days, then the income earned during the time you were legally resident is taxable in Italy; only the income earned during the remainder of the calendar year is not taxable."

So, if I understand this correctly (and we are also dual citizens), you are saying that we will be responsible for any income earned from September through December 2017 outside of Italy, but not our worldwide income for 2017? This means that we will be taxed on all dividends and income outside of Italy? I don't now how the income from investments for a 4 month period is even figured out. We are not drawing from our IRA's yet, but I thought that I read that IRA's are not subject to worldwide income taxes. Do you know if this is correct? We are moving over in September and establishing residency.

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Lisa,

If your IRA distributions would normally be taxable in the US (that is, they are tax-deferred IRAs/401k's as opposed to Roth IRAs), then those distributions are treated as taxable income in Italy as well.

And, yes, if you become legally resident in Italy on September 1st, then four months of your income will be taxable in Italy for tax year 2017.

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Sergios,

Since both my wife and I are dual citizens, I confess that I may not be entirely cognizant of the requirements for PdiS. However, this is my understanding:

1) go to the visa link I cited above and follow through the questions/answers. You will see that "spouse" is mentioned multiple times, thus implying that "family reasons" includes marriage.

2) Assuming the questioner is a US citizen, then he cannot remain in Italy for more than 90 days without some form of permission to do so. As you probably know, every person in Italy is required to carry his "papers" (to use a WWII movie term) at all times and present such on demand. For a US tourist, that means you must have your passport in your possession at all times. For an Italian citizen or legal resident, that normally means that you carry your carta d'identità.

3) I understand that the foreign spouse of an Italian citizen automatically has the right to stay in Italy, but I think what this really means is that he has the right to be automatically granted a PdiS (upon presentation of proof of marriage), *not* that he does not require a PdiS.

In short, to be legal in Italy, you must be able to present an Italian passport or a carta d'identità and, to obtain the latter, you must prove ether citizenship or that you possess a valid PdiS.

Finally, as you probably know, the initial PdiS is normally issued for a short period - one year, I believe, and subsequent PdiS issued for three years and then longer. Something like that.

If our questioner does not remain married to his Italian bride, when he applies for his PdiS renewal, it will be denied and he will have to leave the country. There is a length of time if one remains married long enough, after which even a divorced spouse can remain in Italy, but my recollection is that it is quite long - five years or more.

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Thanks Doppio,

Regarding the IRA's, I understand that they will be taxed as ordinary income. However, are they also subject to the "worldwide wealth tax as well?" Do you know how much the commercialista charges to prepare tax returns? If so, could you shoot me a pm? Thanks for all of your help!

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00abuse

No, IRA balances are not subject to the wealth tax. Distributions, however, are treated as ordinary income.

Give me a few minutes; I can pm the name of a guy in Firenze who I have spoken with in the past.

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Thanks so much! I have just sent you a pm.

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Hello All....
I am a US Citizen married to an Italian/dual citizen for 24 years. We moved back to Italy in 2014. I left the US without a visa as others mention as I "have a right to live in Italy with my spouse". However, you still must follow the same procedures to live in Italy legally which means filing for a PdiS within 8 days, getting a PdiS, establishing residency and getting an Italian Carta D'Identita. The only difference is my PdiS is valid for the entire validity of my US passport which expires in 2020. So in 2020 I will have to renew my US passport and get a new PdiS. Yes you have a "right" to be with your spouse, but you must do so legally...you will be fingerprinted, photographed along with the rest of the legal immigrants...AND if there is anything in their database after entering your fingerprints (for instance prior criminal), you can be denied permission to remain in Italy.

Italy is cracking down and customs is computerized now, so they know when you leave, when you enter and your place of residence. I recently left and returned and was asked to present my PdiS. The signs at the customs counter specifically state have your PdiS, ID card ready for customs officials. The customs official asked the normal, where did you depart from, where are you heading, after scanning my passport asked my city of residence....and after answering all correctly he asked to see my PdiS. Now this is important as well....I always leave the original at home and travel with a color photocopy. The customs agent told me that is illegal and I could be forced to pay a fine for not having the original as well as being blocked from leaving. So....hope this helps. From now on I will travel with my original PdiS!!

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Nick, Makes sense using your Italian passport both when entering and leaving Italy. I would presume that you use your US passport when entering or leaving the US. I never used my passports consistently and now know that that's not a good practice. As a dual citizen, I should use my Italian passport when entering/leaving Italy and use my US passport when entering/leaving the US. If my understanding is faulty, please correct me.

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Nick, Makes sense using your Italian passport both when entering and leaving Italy. I would presume that you use your US passport when entering or leaving the US. I never used my passports consistently and now know that that's not a good practice. As a dual citizen, I should use my Italian passport when entering/leaving Italy and use my US passport when entering/leaving the US. If my understanding is faulty, please correct me.

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whidden,

Not only are you correct, but it is the law in both countries.

You *must* by law present your US passport when entering the US and (if asked) when exiting as well.

Similarly, you *must* by law present your Italian passport when entering Italy and (you will be asked) when exiting as well.

You should also use your Italian passport when entering/exiting any Schengen country, especially if any leg of your trip includes Italy.

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Thanks Doppio. Surprised my whimsical use of passports hadn't ever posed a problem. Am relieved to know what to do going forward.

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