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Schwifty

1/12/2016 14:06 EST

Great read & good advice. Cheers.

Rookoo

1/19/2016 07:55 EST

Very well written with a dash of excellent advisement . NEXT certainly makes sense and can set one Free... As this is the objective.
Grazie

Tigerman55

1/19/2016 11:33 EST

A great piece of excellent information from an expat who has lived in Turkey for the past 20+ years. listen and take notice of what he says and you could save yourself a lot of grief.

Tigerman

chardublin

2/6/2016 12:09 EST

Thank you so much for this insight! I want to move to a different country/climate within the next 3-5 years, and am just starting to research different areas. Thinking of it being my 'next' place instead of where I retire makes complete sense! I am hoping to start my research in earnest this summer by visiting--somewhere--for at least 3-4 weeks, so I can meet and mingle with the expats!
Charlene

dmccrary90025

2/6/2016 12:26 EST

I think those who ask that question (Where to retire?) have done little in terms of research and are looking for a nice warm sandy beach. The hard work is in planning where to go and see along the way, that "next" thing you so well describe. My perspective is as a soon to seek my place elsewhere, with some dough, and young enough to do things and take in varied experiences. I agree re the rent not to buy, and as long as possible.

International Living magazine has all sorts of glowing tales of happy home owners, mostly couples. That is another element, two people deciding if some foreign destination works. A tough call out of the shoot, better to chill and see.

Another issue for many is healthcare systems, and in at least one place I know of in So America, you must buy their plans by age 62 or you are on your own. That adds pressure also if you are 60-61 YOA, ie me!

I plan to not plan a rigid travel schedule in my MB van, shipping it continent to continent as I see fit, solo with dog - another dimension to the where puzzle.

Thats the beauty and mystery that makes it so exciting, the not knowing.

30 You are reporting this! abuse

ANNETTA87

2/9/2016 04:16 EST

[quote] Renting means you can very easily decide to move on if you wish. Buying locks you in to a much greater degree. [/quote]
Sure. I rent an apartment in Phuket now - http://phuket9.com/phuket-property-for-sale/rawai-vip-villas-new. Have a look if u have not chosen a place yet.. Maybe, u will also like it.
[quote] NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, buy property until you have lived in a country for at least 1 and preferably 2 years. That's how long the honeymoon phase can last. [/quote]
A good tip. Thanx.

VickzLo409

2/12/2016 06:15 EST

This is definitely a good read. I'm new here in Expat Exchange and I'm here retiring in the Philippines with my husband, we're from the US and I gotta say since December we've been living like royalties here haha

Wess

2/22/2016 07:48 EST

Really really good and sensible advice.

Appreciate.

Wess

2/22/2016 08:02 EST

Really really good and sensible advice.

Appreciate.

I am new to the forum, to the expat ideas, and from South Africa and really appreciate the very relevant advice given.

My wife and I are retirees and planning to do the world skip if all comes together. We are very avid campers, more precisely caravaners, and would like to stay "free as a bird" as they say and for that reason your advice comes very handy.
Thinking of doing just that and thereby seeing where our "next" would be until more sure of the final outcome wanted.
Will still have to research the caravaning/camping possibilities abroad.
Thanks again
Wess

OldPro

2/26/2016 11:54 EST

A few words on 'RVing' as we call it in N. America Wess.

As you may know, going 'full-timing' in an RV in retirement is a pretty popular thing in N. America. I doubt that anywhere is more suited to this kind of lifestyle and it is a lifestyle with many customs and conventions of its own. There was a good book written by a couple of anthropologists on the subject. You might want to read it.
http://www.utppublishing.com/Over-the-Next-Hill-An-Ethnography-of-RVing-Seniors-in-North-America-second-edition.html
I found it to be quite an eye-opener.

My own brother tried full-timing for 4 years and based on his experiences and those of several dozen other full or winter RVers I have known, there do seem to be quite a few common threads that stand out and may be of interest to you.

Size matters. It matters in several ways. A small van conversion can go just about anywhere a car can but a 40 foot motorhome is far more limiting. So if you want to visit more places and move more often, stay small. Getting a large motorhome down narrow European village streets or to a backcountry national park is not gonna happen.

On the other hand, most people who full-time find that they 'upgrade' to a larger 'home' because they find they really do need more space to be comfortable for the longer term. So that is in conflict with the first point obviously.

The bigger your 'home' the less you are likely to move it is also an outcome of that. My brother moved only twice a year after his first 2 years, following the sun. North in summer to a location and south in winter to a second location. He drove directly from A to B, with little or no sightseeing along the way. It was simply too much trouble to do otherwise. So the 'mobile' part of the equation kind of died after the first 2 years. It becomes more of just having 2 places you live in for 6 months or so at a time. You can get real tired, real quickly of having to set up and level your 'home' repeatedly.

That need to level so that your propane stove and fridge for example will work properly, also brings us to another common issue. What kind of 'home' to have.

A big motorhome vs. a trailer vs. a small van conversion. They all have their pluses and minuses. Going from a campground into town for a few groceries becomes a real issue with a motorhome for example. So you end up towing a car behind your motorhome. Most people seem to start small, move frequently but end up buying larger and moving very little.

The majority do not seem to 'stick' just as I talked about above in reference to where to retire to. Most try full-timing for a few years and then go back to living in a bricks and mortar home. So don't invest all your life savings in it with no way back is the lesson there I think. Everything has a 'honeymoon period' and full-time RVing is no exception.

But for those that do 'stick' I have to think that the USA is the place to do so. Ignoring the issue of being able to legally live there if you aren't an American, the infrastructure available for the full-timer has to be the best in the world.

There are actually RV parks in the USA where you can rent a site by the night; rent a site by the year; trade up to a permanent Park Model manufactured home; move in to a seniors centre in the Park where you can be taken care of as needed right up to and including the end of life hospice care.

The book I gave a link for above is called 'Over The Next Hill' and the following article is titled, 'At The End of The Road' They go together well don't you think?

http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/29/at-the-end-of-the-road/?_r=0

Wess

2/28/2016 15:26 EST

What you are saying OldPro is absolutely correct as we have experienced exactly that with many "full-timers" here in South Africa. You absolutely must have a base to return to to recharge the batteries so to say.
Having been caravaning for the last 46 years and since retirement spent away trips of 3 to 4 months at a time we know what you are saying is very true. However, North and South America are enormous with MANY MANY places to see and explore and that is what we are planning to do with a base somewhere centrally. Travelling and seeing out of the ordinary places are high on our priority list but realise well that it can and will not last forever and settling down permanently sometime is a no-brainer but we will give it a good go. Have not decided on where as we only started now looking at the possibilities.
As to the "home" in mind is to rather tow a caravan than a motorhome as it can be set up more permanently eliminating the issue of setting up the combo unnecessarily.
I thank you for your very informative response and advice, it is really appreciated and I will definitely get hold of the book mentioned.
Unfortunately the Rand is so weak compared to the Dollar therefore making the finances a tough cookie to crumble but reading through this forum I am sure we will come up with a plan somehow.

OldPro

3/6/2016 12:07 EST

A few thoughts if you are considering spending some time in N. America.

Every State in the USA and every Province in Canada has their own licensing laws for vehicles. What that means to you is that it may be easier and cheaper to buy, register and insure your tow vehicle and trailer in one place vs. another.

Everywhere requires a local address to register a vehicle. Obviously that is a problem if you don't live there! You will need to research that thoroughly since the issue is whether any insurance you buy will actually cover you or not. It's easy to buy insurance but that doesn't mean they will pay a claim when you make one and they discover your registered address is not your 'residence'. That's called making a 'false statement' and voids the insurance. So you need to be sure that how you handle it is legal and that the insurance company you use will agree. There are insurance companies that specifically sell insurance for foreigners temporarily in the USA or Canada.

We have snow in N. America. So what? Well, if you are looking for a used vehicle it matters where it has spent its life and the amount of rust damage caused by the use of salt on the roads. A vehicle from say Arizona or British Columbia will have far less rust than one from New York or Toronto.

Vehicle prices can vary quite a bit from area to area. So can taxes, licensing fees, etc. Buy a vehicle in Ontario and the tax will be 13% of the purchase price. Both on the tow vehicle and the trailer. That's a significant number obviously.

Assuming you get past all that and are ready to hit the open road, the easiest way is to stay only as long as you are allowed on a normal tourist entry. Longer stay visas are available but if you can avoid that hassle, why bother. There are countless storage facilities all over N. America where you can leave your vehicles securely for as long as you want. Visit for 3 months, find a place to leave it and fly back home. Return 3 months later or whatever and carry on with your travels. It always pays to keep it simple when possible I find.

While an airfare from S. Africa to N. America may not be cheap, I think it would work out cheaper than trying to find a way to get residency somewhere to have a 'central base' as you put it.

Re the Rand and prices. I think but don't hold me to it, that it is entirely possible to find a used pickup truck in good condition for around $10-15k. A clean, used trailer of around 20-25 feet (that's not large in N. America) for around the same. It's at least a ballpark figure for you to start from. Here's a site to have a look at.
http://www.rvtrader.com/Nevada-Travel-Trailer-RVs----Nevada-RVs-For-Sale/search-results?type=Travel%20Trailer%7C198073&state=Nevada%7CNV&sort=geo_distance%3Aasc&

Wess

3/8/2016 14:12 EST

I thank you again for very useful info and will certainly keep that all in mind. Will have to do a lot more googling and researching to weigh up all options before taking the plunge. Will definately push your button again in the near future if I may. Will keep posted.

Mojo52

3/14/2016 09:26 EST

Thanks for this sound advice. We hope to try Portugal to retire but will definately rent first. Xxx

milquotia

5/6/2016 14:55 EST

I enjoyed this a lot. Thanks for contributing.

jerebarger

5/9/2016 04:38 EST

Hi from jerebarger

collaroygal

5/16/2016 15:11 EST

I agree totally, very good perspective.

We spent 4.5 yrs. in Australia, had to leave, couldn't get perm residency. We rented and had much better homes than if we had tried to buy anything there.

We have checked out living several other places but finally decided to just visit different spots for several months during the winter instead of trying to build a life in one spot. We do love our home base in Summer and Autumn especially, Spring is dodgy at times and winter's can get very cold and snowy here. So just moving somewhere for a few months at a time makes more sense to us. We have traveled a lot, and as we age will probably do less of that anyway. We can afford to stay here or move our choice, and so far, it is stay and travel til we tire of that.

GeralynA

5/23/2016 10:19 EST

Great perspective and advice. Thanks.

TheRolexMan

5/31/2016 13:15 EST

Thank you for this. I think that every person who is looking to make a move anywhere should read this. There are so many stories of those who didn't stick it out and now we can see why. I appreciate the wisdom found here.

OldPro

6/1/2016 18:10 EST

Another point comes to mind after recently hearing someone on a tv show refer to someone looking for a place to 'live out their retirement' and reading a thread in a retirement forum that referred to, 'where to live out my last days'.

Retirement is not an END. It is simply a new chapter in life and that also plays to the idea of NEXT. But it does seem that a lot of people DO see it as some kind of end strategy. It's where you go to wait to die. That's ridiculous. I've moved twice in the last 10 years. I'm still not waiting for anything.

It does explain though why people looking for a place to retire might get this idea of 'I have to get it right'. If you see it as an ending rather than simply another chapter, it becomes much more important to 'get it right'. But it's the initial premise you have got wrong to begin with.

By the way RolexMan, I used to own a Rolex. I gave it away to my son a few years after retiring when I figured out that I no longer needed a watch.

Time KEEPING is a man-made invention. We do it because we have to live our lives to a schedule based on having to work for a living. When to get up to go to work, when to eat, when to sleep, when to pick up the kids from school, etc. etc. But in retirement, all of those things pretty much go away. We are no longer slaves to the clock which is yet another great part of being retired. I get up when I wake, eat when I'm hungry and go to bed when I'm tired. A glance at the sun tells me more or less what time of day it is if I want to know for some reason. There are some interesting thoughts on living without timekeeping that can be found online. https://www.google.ca/search?q=life+without+a+watch&ie=&oe=

The biggest change I have noticed personally is in 'how long things take'. The answer to that is, I don't know. Now think about that answer. ;-)

snorkelmom

6/7/2016 18:08 EST

Hello I saw your post here. Have you been to Portugal? I have been trying to do some research on the area and maybe spending some time there. I wish you could stay longer than the 90 day period though. Would love to hear any stores of Portugal that you may have. Feel free to private messge me :)

KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC

7/6/2016 15:16 EST

I enjoyed reading this Forum as much as any other on expatexchange.

Thanks to OldPro and others for their outlooks on living - and life. I am also a bit of a vagabond, living in many places over the years.

I am now looking for a central location to spend my retirement. I am focusing on Europe as I would like to travel around living in different cities, experiencing different cultures, speaking different languages - all within a reasonable distance. The problem is getting a visa that will allow me to have unconditional rights of travel (and residency) within the EU. Short of gaining EU citizenship, I do not know how to do this.

Doe sanyone know how best to achieve this goal? How long might it take?

Snorkelmom, I am also considering living in Portugal at least part of the time. I have been researching the golden visa program where you can buy a house for as little as €350,000 and qualify for a long-term residency permit. Have you looked into this?

OldPro

7/7/2016 20:17 EST

Kevin, I've just responded on the thread you started on Golden Visas. Wish I had read your comments here first, they make a few things clearer that had me wondering what it was you were trying to do.

I am now going to go right back to your thread on Golden Visas and cut and paste info you have provided here onto it. Then I will comment some more.

parthivshinde

7/23/2016 08:18 EST

Very well Advised. Interesting!

OldPro

9/22/2016 11:15 EST

Looking at individual country sub-forums here, the number of posters who keep seeing retirement as a 'last stop' decision is discouraging.

Why is it that so many people seem to see it that way? It's as if there are only 3 chapters in life. Pre-working life (childhood); working life; retirement. Yet in both the first and second, people do not necessarily expect to live in only one place. Why then do they think they have to decide on one for retirement?

I have a hard time trying to get my head around why people think this way.

shermanwc

9/22/2016 15:00 EST

OldPro, I think your advice is good in general, although my wife and I did not strictly follow all of it. We retired and moved to Costa Rica with the idea that we would live in CR "until we decide to move somewhere else" - consistent with your "where to live next" philosophy.

However, we did buy a condo in a beach town before making the final move to CR, as we wanted "our own" place to live. Our dream retirement was to live within a couple of blocks of a beach in a tropical climate, not too remote. For about 10 years we visited different beach locations, first in Mexico, and later in Nicaragua and Costa Rica. Although trips were usually only 10 -14 days (since I was working full time), we rented condos and bought food at local stores to get a feel for "living" there vs being just a tourist, and we took time to look at possible homes/ condos for full time living.

We made a few trips to CR at different times of the year before buying a condo, and we visited the condo periodically for 2 years before our final move. We made a personal commitment to stay in CR a minimum of 2 years, preferably 5 years, before considering a move anywhere else, We have now lived in CR for 3 1/2 years and have not regretted it.

But we have now initiated plans to move to Nicaragua in 2-3 years for family reasons - our daughter, son-in-law, and two young granddaughters live there. We are having a house built close the the beach and close to our family members. So far, we are not sorry that we bought in CR - we can rent out our CR condo after we move to Nicaragua if we cannot easily sell it in a short time, as we are in a desirable tourist beach area and in a desirable condo with ocean view.

We are still early in our retirement and have sufficient savings to be able to own two homes for a while, before we need to sell one to replenish our retirement funds.

So my advice to others is to heed your advice but also be willing to make adjustments to fit their own desires and goals, with consideration of their financial flexibility to weather any changes.

OldPro

9/24/2016 10:18 EST

I agree it makes sense to be flexible shermanwc IF you can afford to do so financially.

Unfortunately, I have seen too many people commit most of their retirement nest egg into a property and then finding they want to move on, also finding that they can't get their money back out of the property. Their choice is stay when they don't want to or take a big hit selling.

No general advice is going to be the exact advice 100% of the time but in general, general advice is generally worth knowing about. Then as you say, the individual can take into account their own individual circumstances.

It's those who rush in with little or no thought that never fail to amaze me (in a bad way).

If you watch tv shows like House Hunters International, you see people arriving for the first time in their lives in a place like CR and buying a house all in the space of a few days. Now obviously, more is left out than is included in such shows (check this example to see just how fake they can be: http://xpatmatt.com/house-hunters-international-is-fake-so-what/) But what such shows do is encourage people to think that this is what they should do. I consider such tv shows as being irresponsible. They may think they are just providing 'entertainment' but there are plenty of people who will take it as seen and plunge right in to buying somewhere.

shermanwc

9/24/2016 12:43 EST

OldPro, you are correct that House Hunters International exaggerates reality and could mislead some people into making rash decisions when looking at buying a home overseas.

Actually my daughter and son-in-law had a HHI show done about them in Nicaragua several years ago. The show was filmed after they had already purchased a property but made it look like they were still looking. My wife and I had looked at two of the places with them before they purchased one - another property was thrown in for the show to provide a contrast, but actually was not considered in the original purchase. They filmed it over several days and my daughter had to change clothes mid-day so that the next house that they looked at appeared to be on a different day!

Despite all of that, the show did highlight some real considerations they made in comparing different properties. But such a purchase should be made after careful consideration and evaluation - not in the short period as depicted in the shows!

OldPro

9/25/2016 10:20 EST

I've always thought it would make just as good if not better tv entertainment if there was as show that was about people who had bought and were now trying to sell.

To show what they did wrong in whatever way. Like people who get a letter telling them they have 2 months to demolish their house as the builder did not have proper planning permission when it was built. That has happened to literally thousands in Spain.

Or people who simply find that living in a place is not the same as visiting as a tourist and that they just aren't happy living there.

But it's like someone who buys a car and then discovers it's a lemon. Very few people will admit they got it wrong and even fewer would be likely to want to go on TV and tell the world they got it wrong. LOL

It would make good educational tv though.

dianaigh1

10/3/2016 09:35 EST

hi oldpro, i really liked this post cuz i can relate to it. i like to look at my upcoming move as my next adventure and the one after that will be an adventure as well. thanks for you insight.

freebreezin

10/10/2016 09:57 EST

WOW! Great sound advice. I have been looking at moving abroad the wrong way! I do not have a retirement fund s I am very limited to moving to the next place, etc. I intend to visit 3 places of interest when the time comes. I will be 59 in 2 days but have been on Disability since 1999. And yes, loaded with credit card debt for various reason some stupid on my part.

One thing you donot touch on is what to move vs buy when you get there. I suppose that depends on the locale but I need that information with limited fund consisting of my Pension (amount unknown for 3 more years) and my Social Security of $1565.00. I am completely alone and will be when I move most likely.

Mendocina

10/10/2016 14:01 EST

Regarding your query about what to move to an overseas location: In your research, you need to learn each country's rules about what you can bring in duty-free. It is common for there to be a limit, say $10,000, worth of personal effects. Also, simply stated, moving furniture and the like internationally is very expensive so anyone on a limited budget probably should make do with shipping as little as possible.

OldPro

10/11/2016 12:08 EST

Freebreezin, you are correct in suggesting that what to take with you is location dependent to a large degree.

For example if you are coming from a country with 120 volt appliances and going to a country 240 volt as standard, then obviously nothing will work without a transformer which generally doesn't make much sense from a practical viewpoint.

The less you move the better in terms of cost obviously. I'm reminded of people who move from a 4 bedroom house to a 2 bedroom condo after they retire. They refer to 'downsizing'. Then they try to move everything that was in their 4 bedroom house except for 2 beds, to their 2 bedroom condo. That is not downsizing. LOL

You need to be pretty ruthless with yourself. I'm a book lover for example and always end up with a wall of books wherever I live. I have sold or given away almost all the books I accumulate, half a dozen times. Would I like to move them, yes but do I move them, no.

Regarding your limited choices based on income. I would offer this path of thought to consider as well as moving to another country. It is often entirely possible to get what you want within your own country if you look around.

Since you mention SS, I will guess you are American. If so, what criteria other than budget will you be looking for? Warm weather, available healthcare, good infrastructure, low crime, etc. That is all available in the USA if you look in the right places.

For example, there is a place in S. California that I have been visiting from time to time for about 40 years now. I'm thinking about a visit in the near future once again.

I go there because I love the Desert. I love hiking in desert and all the other interests that go along with it. I don't need a beach view to be happy.

I consider this place a 'hidden jewel' and could happily live there for a few years at least. Unfortunately, as a Canadian/UK citizen, it's just too much trouble for me to get Residency in the USA.

The name of the place is Borrego Springs and it is a small town that sits right in the Anza Borrego Desert State Park which is the largest state park and yet relatively few know of it. Yet it is within day tripping distance of Palm Springs and the Pacific Ocean.

A shack on the beach at Delmar on the coast might cost a Million as might a place in Palm Springs. Yet a 2 bedroom park model home on a golf course community in Borrego Springs can be had for $4500 YES, $4500, that is not a typing mistake, I did not leave off a zero or two.:
http://www.roadrunnerclub.com/listingviews.htm
Annual fees on top of the purchase price are around $6000 per year and that includes unlimited golf if that interests someone.

It might not be your cup of tea but I offer it only as an example of what can be found right in your own backyard if you look around.

Sometimes I think people make an assumption that they must move to a 'cheaper country' to make their $ stretch. That isn't necessarily true. You only need to move to a cheaper area than you now live in.

When someone has a more limited budget and they run up against the 'don't stick' factor, it is generally much more expensive to move on from another country. The thing is, you don't get a choice about the 'don't stick' factor. If you find you just aren't happy in a place, you have little choice but to move on or stay and be miserable. I'd much rather be able to choose to move on personally. So in listing criteria that any place you choose to try must have, I would include the criteria of being financially able to LEAVE if things didn't work out.

ldartnall

10/21/2016 18:44 EST

Fantastic - thanks for that!

ehnels12

10/23/2016 13:44 EST

Excellent information. I'm retired --but I don't act like it!! In fact I still live very much like a student - on my bike, wearing a backpack. living modestly (no family, one dog). I own a house in the US but I look forward to renting again, no problem. And yes, making a habit of listening to residents of "5 years" (at least 2 years). At 67 I am also well aware of what is one man's "paradise" is (too often the case) another's horror story. So, "next" is the operative term.

OldPro

10/24/2016 11:28 EST

Ehnels12, your comment, "I'm retired --but I don't act like it!!", strikes a cord with me.

My Sister in law became a widow about 5 years ago. About a year ago, a man tried very hard to 'court' her in a serious way. When she was telling my wife why she told him to forget it, she said he was 'too old'. When my wife noted that he was the same age as me, her sister said, 'yes but he (me) is young for his age, this guy is old for his age.'

Some people are 'old' for their age at ANY age.

trananha91

10/26/2016 03:55 EST

Great read & good advice.

damian12

11/21/2016 07:21 EST

This is very cool, thanks for that

EuroGuy

11/21/2016 11:25 EST

I am considering the idea of "next" myself, not staying more than a few months in any one place. I am trying to research the tax consequences, and the visa complexities of taking this approach. I am a US citizen, and my target "Nexts" are in Europe - all over Europe. Any experiences you can share would be appreciated. Thanks

DawnBradley

11/21/2016 11:43 EST

Great advice!

How do I connect with expats in the Rota/Chipiona/Sanlucar region of Cadiz?

OldPro

11/21/2016 13:36 EST

DawnBradley, just post in the appropriate sub-forums for the country you are considering.

Click on the 'Select a Country' box at the top of this page.

OldPro

11/21/2016 14:16 EST

EuroGuy, I started out moving around in Europe but I have dual nationality which means I have a UK passport. That allows me to live in any of the EU member countries.

If you do not have a second passport or can't get one, then as a US citizen you need to be aware of the Schengen Accord.

Basically what it says athat matters to you is that you cannot spend more than 90 days out of any 180 calendar days in all of the Schengen countries combined.

So what that means is you can't for example, spend 3 months in France and then go and spend 3 months in Italy.

So your choices are to first consider whether you might be able to get a second passport. If your parents immigrated from a European country which is a member of the EU, then you MAY be eligible to get a passport. Let's suppose they immigrated from Italy, then you apply for an Italian passport and if you can get one, you are then exempt from that '90 in 180 calendar days' restriction.

If you can't get another passport then you have to work around the restriction. There is NO way to circumvent it and stay beyond 90 days unless you get a Visa for a specific country. If there was a way around it, it would be known and I can assure you no one has found a way to legally do it. Asked and answered countless times.

So how can you work around it as opposed to 'get around it'. The answer is to go to other countries that are not member of Schengen. The UK for example is not a member. So you CAN spend 3 months in France, then 3 months in the UK and THEN go back into the Schengen zone and spend 3 months in Italy. That complies with the '90 in 180' rule.

Here is a list of the Schengen member countries:
http://www.projectvisa.com/includes/schengen.html

As you will see, you do NOT need a visa to visit any of them as long as you abide by the '90 in 180' rule.

If you wanted to visit half a dozen of the Schengen countries, then you would have to find places to spend time elsewhere in between time spent in the Schengen countries.

You could for example, spend 3 months in Morocco, or Gibraltar, or Turkey or go home to the USA for a 3 month visit.

You say a 'few months' and as long as it is less than 3 months, it can be done this way. If however, you mean 6 months here and 6 months there, it becomes a problem which only a visa for the individual countries can provide. Unfortunately, it is not easy to get such visas and then becomes a question of 'hassle/bureaucracy vs. reward.'

Regarding tax consequences. The above approach does not affect that at all. You would not in fact be changing residency.

Everyone has what in legal terms is called 'deemed residency'. That is the country in which you are LEGALLY considered to be resident. To change it, you have to declare you are 'resident' in another country. Otherwise you are just a 'tourist' in the country where you happen to be hanging your hat at the time. Even though you might be out of the USA for let's say 2 years, you would still be 'deemed resident' in the USA for tax purposes.

Assuming your income is derived in the USA and paid into a US bank, you can be sure the IRS is gonna want their cut of the pie as always. It is quite difficult to get out of that and be 'deemed resident' in another country for tax purposes. There is no way to do it if you are moving around as you plan to do.

It took me 3 years to get out of being 'deemed resident' for tax purposes in Canada. I then managed to spend 7 years not being 'deemed resident' in any country and therefore paid no income taxes in any country for that period of time. But to do that I had to remove ALL money and derive ALL income from outside of Canada. Obviously, you can't do that if you have a government pension for example. Also, while it is possible to get out of being 'deemed resident' as a Canadian, it is much harder for an American. The US deems ALL CITIZENS TO BE liable to US income tax. You have to give up your citizenship to get out of it!!!

http://www.ustaxfs.com/what-is-a-us-person-for-irs-tax-purposes/

The other issue you need to pay attention to is health insurance. You would need travel health cover for what you plan unless you want to take your chances.

So bottom line. the easiest way for you to proceed is to work with the Schengen '90 in 180' rule until you want to stay longer in one place. If that happens THEN is the time to look at how to proceed regarding a visa that will allow you to do so.

Continue to file tax returns in the US every year and pay your taxes. You may not like it but it's easy.

Consider what to do about healthcare coverage.

EuroGuy

11/22/2016 07:32 EST

OldPro, thanks very much for the response - you are a font of knowledge. I understand the approach you lay out with the 90/180 Schengen rule, along with its simplicity (the pro). The cons of this approach would be the cost of renting a residence and a vehicle since both would be shorter term, I would think they would be more expensive. But I do understand the approach. However, I would like to explore retirement "residency" options in a Schengen country which would have reciprocity to other Schengen countries (this might be a given). For example, let's say I am granted a retirement residency in Italy where I establish a home base renting a suitable apartment, and purchase/register a vehicle. I am hoping that I would then be able to visit other Schengen countries without the 90/180 restriction. I am trying to research as to whether such an arrangement would be possible. And if possible, I would be very curious about the country specific comparative tax liabilities. In other words, Italy and France tax your world wide incomes (at very high marginal rates) and impose some sort of wealth tax on top of all that. While other Schengen members may be much more favorable from a retirement residency perspective. Lots of things to research and consider.

Launia

11/22/2016 12:30 EST

As a US citizen you will owe always wherever you are to the Usa. You annual tax declaration has to be done and your foreign FBAR bank accounts declared as well.
As an expat living and working overseas there is a tax exemption of 100,000 US
As an expat not working overseas there is a tiny tax exemption of 7.000 US
In both cases to be you cannot stay in thenUS more than 30 days annually or you would loose any exemption.
Moving around the world, the story is the same you have to make your IRS declaration annually.
Bon voyage

OldPro

11/22/2016 12:44 EST

OK Euroguy, well the answer to your 'establish residency' idea is, yes, no and maybe it would work. LOL

Portugal for example is a popular country for people to retire to as it has a relatively easy path to getting residency. So let's follow that as an example I'm familiar with.

You apply for a Schengen Type D visa at a Portuguese consulate in your home country. If you satisfy their requirements you get a Visa good for 120 days. You arrive in Portugal and then apply locally for a Residence Permit which is good for one year. If you got the visa, it is more or less a slam dunk that you will get the Residence Permit. This permit can be renewed annually, again more or less a slam dunk and after 5 years you can apply for Permanent Residency. Following that if you wish, you can apply for Citizenship in a couple of more years. So it's a clear path.

Once you have the first year's Residence Permit, you could travel within the Schengen freely as if questioned about the length of time you were in the Schengen countries, you can show you are a resident of a Schengen country. It's a little bit questionable in that it could be said that you are really still subject to the '90 in 180' when outside of Portugal as you ONLY have Residency in Portugal and when outside it, as a US national you are still subject to the Schengen rule. But chances are very low that you would get hassled for that. It is still a bit of a 'maybe' though as there is no clear consensus on this issue.

But the other issue is that as a Resident of Portugal, you must MAINTAIN that status. To do that, each country has a minimum amount of time you must be IN the country during that year. I don't happen to know what that length of time is for any specific country but I know it exists and so you would have to make sure you adhered to that requirement to maintain your residency. That may NOT suit your plans for spending longer periods of time in various countries.

So I go back to your original intent. To try visiting various countries and seeing what you find. I still think simply working with the '90 in 180' rule as an INITIAL strategy would work best. It requires you to do NOTHING in terms of visas, taxes, etc.

Getting residency in Portugal (as our example) will not change your tax status in the USA. Nothing will as I noted other than giving up your US citizenship which you still wouldn't be able to do until you got Portuguese citizenship which would take around 8 years from day one. So even if the Portuguese tax rates were more favourable, you can't get to there for a long time.

Remember, The USA doesn't care WHERE you live or what other nationality you hold. Even a dual national has to by US law file a tax return as long as they are a citizen. Full stop.

So again, back to '90 in 180' as an initial strategy makes sense to me. WHEN and IF you decide you want to put down more permanent roots, THEN is the time to consider taxes and what you will have to do to change your status.

One step at a time EuroGuy. Don't overthink it or over complicate it if you don't have to. I always prefer simple. Go to A, see how you like it, take it from there.

Make sure you have debit/credit cards and a bank account with one of the banks in the USA that provides you with no exchange loading on your card useage and you're set to go.
https://wallethub.com/credit-cards/no-foreign-transaction-fee/

Regarding a car and rent, you may find it expedient to consider the vacation rental market in terms of OFF season.

What I mean is if you visit a popular holiday area in the off season where there are a lot of tourist accommodations to rent and smaller local car rental companies, they have apartments and cars sitting idle in the off season. That presents an opportunity for you to rent far more cheaply than IN season.

Off season is also when you will find it far easier to interact with locals. In season they are all busy with the tourists, while off season, they relax and enjoy life.

Places like the south of Spain, France, parts of Italy, Greece, etc. all have summer tourist seasons but can be very quiet in winter. Somewhere like Switzerland or parts of the French and Italian Alps on the other hand have both a high season in summer and a high (ski) season in winter and shorter shoulder seasons where prices are lower. So some careful attention to those can be of use to you regarding rentals.

A small 'efficiency studio' or apartment that rents by the day in season can often be had for far less by the month in off season. What's more, a shorter rental suits the seasonal demand. What they charge for 10 days IN season may be what you can rent for a month for OFF season as an example and they do NOT want to rent for more than a few months. They want to go back to the higher daily rentals when the season starts again.

So what I am saying is the 'con' of the '90 in 180' that you see MAY not be the 'con' you think it is, if you use seasonal demand to your advantage.

EuroGuy

11/22/2016 16:01 EST

Thanks for the response - I appreciate your help.

EuroGuy

11/22/2016 16:05 EST

Thanks very much OldPro, I appreciate your perspective. Would you be able to recommend a site or publication that does a comparative analysis of the costs associated with retiring in the Schengen zone - in particularly interested in a tax liability analyis for those electing permanent residence?

OldPro

11/22/2016 23:51 EST

Well remember you have to give up US citizenship to avoid having to file a tax return in the USA.

Even if there is a tax treaty between two countries which means, the tax you pay in one country is counted in the other country, it doesn't help you. In other words, lets' say in the USA you had to pay 35% tax on income. Then lets' say in Cyprus you only had to pay 24%. So move to Cyprus and pay the 24% there. BUT the USA still wants a return filed and when you show the 24% paid in Cyprus, they say, 'OK, we'll credit that but you still owe us the difference of 11%. So you end up paying the same amount as you would have anyway.

The only way to get out of it is to give up citizenship, not just change your Residency.

Cyprus by the way is usually seen as the lowest REAL tax rate in Europe. Bear in mind, that income tax is not all you have to consider. Fuel tax, sales tax, etc. etc. all add up and some countries may have a lower income tax rate but a higher total REAL tax rate.

http://qz.com/743249/guess-which-country-pays-the-highest-taxes-in-europe/

Coconutstai

11/23/2016 06:36 EST

Oldpro: as always your input is rich in fact, very helpful.

Versus the snarky comments I've been reading in answer to queries: "visit the country to figure out xyz ..,". Wouldn't it be nice if those who respond in such a way, did not bother. Their uppity comments put off those new to site who brave a question. Duh: we all know investigating everything ourself firsthand is the best,, optimal But then what is the point of this site. The snarky comments relay the mindset: we're here, made the effort, and til u do, don't bother us on this forum,

I've learned much reading reading reading CR forum present and past. CR is no longer on my list for a home six months out of the year.

I shall try to figure out how to contact Oldpro individually with my list so as not to bother those of you who are annoyed with research type questions from us who have not gone to said country as yet.

OldPro

11/23/2016 12:09 EST

Coconut, under each posters name you will see where you can click on to send a Private Message. Feel free to do so if you wish.

Regarding questions to which you get an answer to, 'visit the country'. I actually see little point in visiting a country ahead of time. It doesn't hurt of course but it also doesn't tell you anything about what It will be like to live in that country. The ONLY way to know that is to LIVE in that country.

It's like taking a 15 minute test drive in a car you are looking at buying. It will tell you if there is a knock in the engine; a clunk in the transmission or if a wheel is going to fall off in the next 15 minutes but it won't tell you a thing about whether or not you are going to like that car a year from now.

It's an extension of 'who to listen to'. A new arrival can tell you about the visa process, the moving process, etc. Someone who has been there a year or two can tell you more but still have their 'rose coloured glasses on'. Only someone who has been there 5 years or more can really tell you what living there is like and only IF they are LIKE you.

Regarding 'snarky' remarks. There can be several reasons for that. Some are indeed just snarky remarks but some are made by regular posters including myself for different reasons.

Most new posters do not bother to first do some reading before jumping in with a question. They don't read any of this General forum for example. They jump right to the sub-forum of the country they are interested in. Then they do no reading of previous threads there either and instead jump right in with a question like, 'should I move to X' or 'Is X a good place to retire to' or 'can I live there on X amount per month', etc. Broad, general questions that are really impossible for anyone to answer for you.

Regular posters can get understandably tired of seeing this over and over again. So out comes a 'snarky' answer like, 'why don't you do some of your own research/homework first and then post an intelligent question with enough relevant background information for someone to be able to give you relevant responses to.'

The other factor is the person posting in all innocence, then takes the response PERSONALLY rather than asking themselves WHY they got that kind of response. They blame the person responding and never themselves.

But here's the thing to remember. If you are the person looking for help, if you then decide to attack those responding and start saying they are rude, nasty, etc. it will NOT HELP you.

So suck it up and try asking another question. But spend some time reading first, and then spend the time to compose an intelligent question and provide as much relevant background info as you can.

It is rarely if ever the person asking the question that provokes the snarky answer, it is the QUESTION they asked that got them the snarky answer. So don't take it personally, learn from it and try again.

There are plenty of people here with good first hand knowledge of different countries, issues, etc. your job is to figure out how to get them to share it with you. It isn't THEIR job to tell you how to do that. Take it as a challenge if you will and don't let a snarky remark put you off.

I'm glad to read you have been reading. I take it by CR you mean Costa Rica. That sub-forum has some of the snarkiest posters of all I think. Don't judge all by that example.

If you were considering trying that area, have you looked at Panama? It has quite a few advantages over CR I believe. Lower costs, less crime, currency pegged to the US$ so no currency exchange fluctuations to worry about. Not my choice, but we are all different in our criteria.

OldPro

11/23/2016 12:15 EST

EuroGuy, I forgot to mention the issue of government pensions. I am not an American and so am not that familiar with how US government old age pensions work in terms of what happens if you move your tax and residency elsewhere.

For example, I am familiar with Canada and they will pay government pensions into any bank account anywhere in the world. It is also possible for a Canadian to become, 'non-resident for tax purposes' without having to give up citizenship.

I think you should try posting in some country specific sub-forums to see if some Americans will answer you regarding the tax issues, the continued payment of government pensions, the issue of giving up citizenship.

OldPro

11/23/2016 13:55 EST

EuroGuy, read this thread:

http://www.expatexchange.com/expat/index.cfm?frmid=278&tpcid=3416987

Besides giving you some insight into the question of taxes as they apply in one specific country, it also mentions where to find more info.

EuroGuy

11/23/2016 15:42 EST

Thanks OldPro - the link you posted had an interesting table which I distilled a bit:

Country Avg Inc Avg Inc Tax Avg Tax Rate
Austria 42,573 7,846 18.43%
Bulgaria† 5,049 440 8.71%
Croatia 12,468 1,208 9.69%
Czech Republic 11,549 1,402 12.14%
France 37,427 2,474 6.61%
Germany 45,952 8,705 18.94%
Greece 20,168 3,869 19.18%
Hungary† 9,558 1,610 16.84%
Italy 30,463 6,326 20.77%
Poland 9,849 686 6.97%
Portugal 17,436 2,789 16.00%
Romania† 5,812 776 13.35%
Slovakia 10,342 979 9.47%
Slovenia 17,851 1,323 7.41%
Spain 26,162 3,897 14.90%

The above is not going to look very pretty, no doubt. What I did is compare income to income tax to get a view as to how the countries compare. If you compare my little table with the one from the link you provided you will readily see what I did. I was very surprised, pleasantly so, to see that la belle France is a very low income tax country. This is important to me, and so it's a focus for me. Thanks again.

EuroGuy

11/23/2016 15:46 EST

Thanks OldPro.

I am currently assuming what is likely a worst case situation - my social security and pension will be taxed in the Schengen region as regular income. Based on some research using France as the Schengen residence that seems to be true so far. In other words, I am assuming no special treatment for US social security and pension income. At the same time (for France), assuming ordinary income treatment for interest and dividend income.

EuroGuy

11/23/2016 15:53 EST

OldPro - Thanks very much indeed.

As background, I have been traveling throughout Europe on vacations since 2001, at least once per year, sometimes as many as 3. I've also traveled to Europe for work. So my combined visits to Europe over the years have given me some perspective, and especially with respect to individual countries. And Portugal is a sweet spot for me. There's not much to dislike about Portugal from my perspective. So interesting things from a residence tax perspective - like they do not tax pension income - it's a slight incentive.

I continue to plod along and compile information.

planetcleaner

11/23/2016 21:07 EST

I have been retired in Isla Margarita for 7 years. It has the best climate in the world..Quiet,no opllution ,no storms or hurricanes. low humidity,and the cheapest in the world,despite the high inflation.. I live very well on 400 dollars a month.. There is a lot of publicity about crime here but here on the Island,like anywhere else, if you are sensible there is no problem.

OldPro

11/24/2016 11:40 EST

EuroGuy, just don't lose sight of the forest. I understand the tax issue is important to you but it is NOT the only criteria.

I currently live in Canada. I doubt it ranks as one of the lowest country for taxes. But what it provides for those taxes no doubt ranks as one of the highest countries. Sometimes, you do indeed get what you pay for and it is worth paying.

But NONE of it matters if you are not happy living in the country. Having an extra few thousand a year to spend won't change that.

Go back to your original intent. To spend some time in various countries before settling down. The tax issue is irrelevant to that scenario. It only comes into play once you stay longer than a few months and get residency in a country. That may be a couple of years down the road. And again I stress, picking the country you feel comfortable in has to come first and then what the taxes are, they are.

When are you planning to START? That is, on what date do you plan to fly to Europe? To what country first? It is sometimes easy to get into a 'paralysis by analysis' position by spending too much time researching and not just simply doing something.

Either you pick a country now that you think will be a permanent stop and apply for a visa to get residency in that country OR you do what you said you were going to do and simply start out as a traveller.

As it is, you seem to be saying the second but researching for the first option. That to me is getting too far ahead of yourself. Go, spend some time, see where you end up.

As I've said, I went somewhere for a week and stayed 7 years. When you get to a place you are not ready to leave yet and need a visa to stay longer, THEN is the time to worry about that. When you get Permanent Residency and can make a choice about where to pay tax, THEN is the time to worry about that.

You seem to not be acknowledging that you will have to continue to pay tax in the USA for a long time, no matter what you do. Hell man, you could be dead before that time comes. Hopefully not of course.

There is a saying I like. It goes like this.
There are 2 rules to a happy life.
Rule #1: Don't sweat the small stuff.
Rule#2: It's all small stuff.

Taxes are in the greater scheme of life, small stuff EuroGuy. Book your flight and get on with enjoying life. Don't waste a DAY on figuring out tax costs.

ehnels12

11/25/2016 10:49 EST

Hear, hear ... damn good point! Thank you, Old Pro.

OldPro

11/25/2016 10:54 EST

Well, you're welcome ehnels12, although I don't know which point you are referring to. LOL

EuroGuy

11/27/2016 08:54 EST

Thanks for the response - appreciate your views.

I'm three years out from setting off to Europe for retirement. I may have mentioned that I've traveled extensively in Europe and have an idea as to where I may end up as a resident. But never having stayed anywhere previously longer than a week, I'm thinking I need more exposure before making a decision.

I do acknowledge that I will need to pay taxes in the US, and have done research as to what my exposure would be. The way this works to my understanding is that foreign taxes paid are credited on the US tax liability. My expectation, has been correct up until now based on research, is that my European tax liability will always be greater than that in the US, and will end up owing zero US tax as a result. To me taxes are just another budgetary item that needs to be taken into consideration, which is why I continue to research.

I intend to post country specific tax questions on the respective country forum, starting with France and Italy - among my favorite European countries,

Cheers

Coconutstai

11/27/2016 16:32 EST

Oldpro:

U r a wealth of information and rationality.
Thank u for your posts.

The immature, foul mouthed posters on Costa Rica are posting on Nicaragua too. Tiresome deleting past any entries with their handles.

The good news is ive ruled out Costa Tica as a place to go and have expanded investigation to Nica, Montevideo, towns near Buenos Aires, New Delhi.

And am down downsizing relatively expensive home for smaller, cheaper locale in Western USA. Thanks for your desert tip.

OldPro

11/28/2016 11:29 EST

Want to downsize in W. USA Coconutstai, check this one out.

http://www.roadrunnerclub.com/tour/tour-183WHD.htm

A 'bolt hole' for $16,500 on a gated golf course community. Annual fees around $6k per year I believe including all your golfing.

There are a lot of people who don't know what is available to them in their own backyard.

dsdlprice8

12/3/2016 06:53 EST

Good advice, but we wanted to have a home, not just a stopping place. We want to be residents, not visitors. I think it depends on what you are looking for. We love living here in Ireland - but no telling if they will let us stay. So we are always thinking about the next "home."