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Golden Visa for the EU

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
  7/6/2016 11:09 EST

Does anyone have experience applying or successfully receiving a so-called "golden visa" from countries in the EU? I am considering buying a house in Spain or Portugal in order to get permanent residency and eventually an EU passport.

MissDaisy
  7/6/2016 14:07 EST

I don't have a "golden visa" from Cyprus but I do have a type F visa (long-term residency permit). I was relatively easy for me to get although it took a year to process the application. I had an annual residency permit for 3 years prior to getting the Type F visa.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
  7/6/2016 14:48 EST

MissDaisy,

Thanks for the feedback. I took a look and it seems a Cypriot Type F Visa is for a person of independent means? Are you permitted to work and do you have a path to Cyprus and EU citizenship?

The income requirement looks like about €9,600 for a single person and €14,000 for a married couple? That is much lower that countries like Ireland and the UK. Is that enough to live on in Cyprus?

Much appreciate your feedback.

MissDaisy
  7/6/2016 16:23 EST

You are not permitted to work in Cyprus with a Type F visa. You do have a path to citizenship. In fact, I will start looking into that for myself next year. I believe you have to reside in Cyprus for 7 years to be eligible for naturalization. You can live on 10,000 euros a year (single) if you own your own property and don't have a lot of expenses and don't plan to travel. I live quite comfortably on approx. 22,000 euros a year. I own my home with no mortgage, I do travel a little. I pay about 1000 euros/yr for health insurance with about another 250 euros /yr for out of pocket medical expenses (I have no health issues).

KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
  7/6/2016 16:44 EST

Thanks again. How often do you need to renew your Type F and prove your income? When Cyprus signs the Schengen treaty will you have the right to visa-free travel throughout the EU?

How much time do you need to spend in Cyprus to retain your Type F?

I read that you can qualify for Type F by purchasing a Cyprus property for €300,000.

http://cypruspropertygallery.com/pages/types-of-visa-for-cyprus

Sorry for all the questions.

If anyone wants to know more about retiring to Ireland, I have done a lot of research.

KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
  7/6/2016 16:44 EST

Thanks again. How often do you need to renew your Type F and prove your income? When Cyprus signs the Schengen treaty will you have the right to visa-free travel throughout the EU?

How much time do you need to spend in Cyprus to retain your Type F?

I read that you can qualify for Type F by purchasing a Cyprus property for €300,000.

http://cypruspropertygallery.com/pages/types-of-visa-for-cyprus

Sorry for all the questions.

If anyone wants to know more about retiring to Ireland, I have done a lot of research.

MissDaisy
  7/6/2016 17:17 EST

The Type F visa is valid forever as long as you "do not acquire permanent residence outside Cyprus or be absent from Cyprus for a period exceeding 2 years". It costs 120 Euros. It is stamped in my passport and when I get a new passport, I have to go to the immigration office in Nicosia and have it transferred to my new passport and pay a small administrative fee. but I hope to be a Cypriot citizen but that time anyway. I had to apply to renew my annual residence permit at the same time I submitted my long-term residency application in case they didn't grant me long term residency. The application for long-term residency is essentially the same as for the annual residency permit but a little more formal. Instead of bank statements I had to get account valuation letters signed by a bank official and a criminal records check through the FBI - this takes some planning and coordination because you have to submit your fingerprints to the FBI to get them to do a check. Yes, you can qualify for residency and then citizenship by purchasing a property worth 300,000 euros - that would be a serious house. I don't know anyone who has done that - it is aimed at wealthy Russians and Chinese.

KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
  7/6/2016 17:24 EST

My last questions I promise.

Can you travel freely in the EU? What happens if your income goes below the requirements?

MissDaisy
  7/6/2016 17:56 EST

The Type F visa offers no benefit for free travel in the EU, you are still subject to other countries' immigration restrictions under the requirements applicable to the country you hold a passport from. I have no idea what would happen if your income goes beyond the requirements. They don't check periodically as far as I know. I have not had to submit any documentation since I got the visa 3 years ago. I assume that you would not be given the visa if they did not think you had enough money to sustain yourself.

OldPro
  7/7/2016 19:33 EST

These Golden Visas have become more common and there are now several countries that offer them. Each country has it's own requirements.

Sometimes Kevin it pays to say what you want to do rather than asking a specific question about something you have heard about.

A specific question like this ASSUMES you have heard of the best way to achieve what your REAL goal is. There may be more than one way such as the Visa for Cyprus or there may be yet another way that is also available to you.

That is why I always think it best on forums such as this to say what you WANT to do and provide all the background info you think is relevant and THEN ask if anyone has a potential answer for you.

You mention 4 countries so far and it almost sounds like you don't care what country you get to live in as long as it gets you access to Schengen with no travel restrictions. I have difficulty with that idea. First, because there are big differences between living in one country vs. another in many ways and second because you have given no reason for needing unrestricted travel access within Schengen. Very few people need more than 90 days as a visitor in any one country at any one time.

You are now looking at Cyprus. Deciding to visit France for a month from Portugal or Spain simply means hopping in your car and driving down the road. Doing so from Cyprus is a whole other ball game cost wise. You ask about costs which might indicate you do not have unlimited (or as good as) funds. Then budget should be a criteria you add BEFORE you ask a question.

The answers you get can only be as good as the information you provide on which people can BASE an answer. If you ask for directions to the edge of a cliff, that's easy to answer but you might get a totally different answer if you said WHY you wanted to go there.

So my suggestion is to lay your cards on the table and say what it is you want to do and all the relevant criteria that need to be taken into account.

Nationality, age, number of people, work/not work, expected income in what currency, weather preferences, languages if any, expectations, interests, travel plans once moved, etc. etc. etc. The more relevant info you provide the more relevant responses can be.

OldPro
  7/7/2016 19:36 EST

Still more questions. Do you expect this to be permanent, full time move? Why does citizenship matter, why wouldn't just having access to travel be enough? Does citizenship in fact matter at all?

OldPro
  7/7/2016 19:42 EST

Still another question. How much capital will you expect to have to invest in buying a home? If you don't need to buy to get residency, would you rather rent instead for the first year or two until you see how you cope with the differences in living there? That's always a good idea for anyone contemplating a move to another country.

My first advice to anyone looking at moving is to NEVER, NEVER, NEVER buy before having lived in a country for at least 1 and preferably 2 years. Of all the people I have seen moved to their 'retirement paradise', 5 are gone within 2 years and only 1-2 are still there after 5 years. I have never seen one leave with more money than they arrived with.

If you have to buy in order to get residency that is one thing but buying if you don't have to is a different thing altogether.

Some countries offer a Retirment Visa which is different from a Golden Visa which is actually an investment visa. A Retirement Visa simply requires you to have X amount of income per month provable and no intent to work. That may be an approach you could look at if you plan to retire and not work.

OldPro
  7/7/2016 20:59 EST

Kevin, on the 'Where to Retire' thread you wrote the following.

"I am now looking for a central location to spend my retirement. I am focusing on Europe as I would like to travel around living in different cities, experiencing different cultures, speaking different languages - all within a reasonable distance. The problem is getting a visa that will allow me to have unconditional rights of travel (and residency) within the EU. Short of gaining EU citizenship, I do not know how to do this.

Doe sanyone know how best to achieve this goal? How long might it take?

............... I am also considering living in Portugal at least part of the time. I have been researching the golden visa program where you can buy a house for as little as €350,000 and qualify for a long-term residency permit."

That now gives some idea of WHAT it is you are really trying to do.

First, it sounds like you are single.(yes/no?) Second it sounds like you have previously lived in different countries for extensive periods of time (yes/no?). Third it sounds like you are about to retire but have not done so yet. (yes/no?) Fourth, you are NOT looking for a place to retire but instead want to live for varying yet lengthy periods in various places in Europe and presumably that will be for some years until you get tired of it and decide to settle somewhere when you eventually get 'really' old. (yes/no?)

That paints an entirely different picture than someone just saying, 'have you heard of Golden Visas'.

My first reaction to what you want and its relationship to a Golden Visa, is WHOA. I don't like that connection at all. While a Golden Visa for Portugal or wherever would get you the EU/Schengen access you want, it requires a considerable investment to get it. If you wanted to LIVE in Portugal then such an investment might be warranted although I would always counsel to rent first and not buy. But to invest around $380K USD at today's exchange to achieve it, would not appeal to me at all. Not if I wanted to go live in Paris for a year while that house is sitting in Portugal and my money is basically DEAD. Let me qualify that. If you have a net worth of a couple of million and an assured retirement income of $50k/person plus, maybe. Otherwise, no. I would see that as a very bad investment when the only real return is Schengen access.

I would be advocating a Retirement Visa instead which only requires you to prove X income per month and still gets you access to Schengen.

There are ways and there are ways to get around things Kevin. For example, you can rent a small one bedroom apartment in a small town for 250-300E per month. If you have a Residence Permit based on retirement, you may need to keep that apartment rented in order to 'keep' residency. But there is no need to BUY. See what I'm saying?

Read this excellent contribution for the process I am talking about:
http://www.expatexchange.com/ctryguide/4216/92/Portugal/United-States-Citizens-Moving-to-Portugal-Demystifying-the-Paper-Trail
You may want to add your comment/questions on that thread for some more specifics of what the author thinks of the idea of maintaining a 'residence' in Portugal while in fact taking off to live in Paris for 9 months etc. Again, making it clear what you really want to do, live in various places for periods of time by gaining legal residency in one country.

Now back to your $380k you were going to spend on buying a house to get a Golden Visa. You get to KEEP that money in the bank or in long term bonds or whatever else you decide to invest it in. Even if you only earn 4% on it, that's $15k before tax so lets round it down to $10k after tax or around 9,000 Euros. If you pay 400E per month for rent, utilities, etc. on that apartment you are keeping in Portugal, that comes to 4800E per year. The other 4,000E stays in your pocket and your money is SAFE and LIQUID. Even worst case with a terrible exchange and rising rent, I can't see you doing worse than breaking even.

Keep in mind with these figures I am throwing out, they are just guesstimates and all I am looking at is YOUR professed outcome. To be able to live in Europe. I'm not looking at how likely is it that putting the money in a house in Portugal would not earn you more in capital growth than the income investing it elsewhere will give you. But that is not what YOU say you want it to do for you. What you want is to be able to live in Europe. As I see it, if you have the necessary provable monthly income in retirement to not have to work, then renting and paying the rent from the invested $380k will get you that without TYING up your $380k and will keep you 100% free to change your mind at any time as to what you want to do next.

MissDaisy
  7/7/2016 21:07 EST

I'd just like to mention that even if you got an EU passport, you would be required to apply for a residency permit in another EU country if you were intending to live in a second or third EU country for any length of time (probably more than 90 days). Could you get away with not doing this? Probably. But it is a requirement to get the residency permit.

OldPro
  7/7/2016 21:13 EST

I will also add Kevin that while the idea of living in various places in Europe and moving from place to place lets say once a year or so, can sound very attractive, it may not turn out as expected.

Whatever path people start down in retirement whether it is RV living or a winter home in Mexico, etc. etc., it is rare for it to continue for more than a few years. That's what I have seen anyway. After a couple of years of whatever, it becomes just 'more of the same' and the rose coloured glasses start to grow dim. As you have read on the thread on 'Where to Retire', I'm an advocate of NEXT. Retirement is not an end point, it is simply another chapter in your book. Now imagine it as a book. Chapter 65(retirement year example): My year living in Paris. Chapter 66: My year living in Venice. Chapter 67: My year living in Frankfurt. and so on and so on. As you might imagine, each of those chapters is going to talk about, 'how I found a place to stay, how different the food and people are, how I found a place that sells Skippy peanut butter. Basically, each chapter is going to be the same, just in a different place. The question then is, how long would reading (or living) those chapters is likely to hold your interest before you are ready for a chapter that is totally different. Chapter 69: My year as crew on a sailboat in the Indian Ocean with highlights from the wreck after the attack by Malay Pirates.'

Some people are content staying in one place and living a pretty 'normal' life. Nothing wrong with that, for them. Some people want to do more than that though and come up with a more ambitious plan as you have. But even the most ambitious get tired of things eventually and having tied up your capital in one place where it may not be easy to get it out intact again, is just not something I would plan to do UNLESS I planned to stay there and had already done so for some time and expected to want to continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

OldPro
  7/7/2016 21:23 EST

True MissDaisy although you can in fact easily get away with it. You rent furnished, all utilities included etc. as if you were a tourist. That isn't particularly easy in some places but very easy in some other places.

You will need private health insurance obviously and if necessary simply claim you were on vacation when the illness etc. occurred.

The big thing is you can cross the borders back to Portugal or wherever and if stopped while staying somewhere else or enroute to/from somewhere, your Residence Permit gets you through. 'I was in Antibes for 2 months on an extended vacation'. The chances of being stopped to begin with are very low unless say you were involved in a car accident and the Police ask for your info. The chances then of them actually checking with where you were staying to see how long you stayed are extremely low. We aren't talking about a minority migrant worker here who by appearance alone raises questions. While we may not agree with it, profiling of people does indeed go on all the time. If you look like a harmless American retiree who says he lives in Portugal and has a Residence Permit to prove it and was on a vacation in Antibes and has now been hurt in a bus accident on his way back to Portugal, then chances are, that is exactly what they will accept you as being.

If you are dressed in hemp, have dreadlocks and start every sentence with, 'peace brother, it's all cool man', then they may have some further questions. ;-)

KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
  7/8/2016 12:53 EST

Thanks OldPro and Miss Daisy for your detailed responses. After sifting through all that you wrote, however, I think OldPro in one of his last postings touched upon my most important point.

If one wishes to live one year here and one year there, what visa category will permit this? I thought that most “retirement visas” were only good for one year. I am not willing to move lock stock and barrel to the EU only to be denied residency at some future point because my “host country” decided to change their immigration policies. Immigration investment programmes are indeed expensive and perhaps uneconomic but they also appear to provide much more assurances of permanent residency than a one-year retirement visa.

But maybe there is another option I am missing which is the reason why I posted my initial question in the first place - “Does anyone have experience applying or successfully receiving a so-called "golden visa" from countries in the EU? I am considering buying a house in Spain or Portugal in order to get permanent residency and eventually an EU passport.” I could be wrong but I am thinking that golden visa may be the best way - financial considerations notwithstanding - to retire to the EU.

Miss Daisy - Sorry but I thought only EU citizens can hold an EU passport. Also, I thought that all EU citizens have the absolute right to freely travel, live and work in another EU country without any restrictions. Isn’t this one of the major points of the EU? Or do you mean something else when you say “EU passport”?

MissDaisy
  7/8/2016 16:02 EST

well, Kevin, you are confusing me or confusing what I said. Yes, only EU citizens can hold an EU passport. I didn't say otherwise. Yes, all EU citizens have the absolute right to freely travel, live and work in another EU country but they are still required to get a residency permit in the country that they move to. It's not something that has to be renewed annually. It is a legal formality.

I think you are confusing things in relation to the EU - EU countries are not like US states. Each has it's own laws though there is some consistency because of EU laws. Just because you have a residency permit (or retirement Visa) from Italy does not mean that you can go and live in France for a year without completing immigration formalities in France. France's residency requirements may be slightly different than Italy's. as far as I know, the EU does not issue visas or residency permits, each individual country does. I had a residency permit from Slovakia but that did not allow me to live in Cyprus for more than 90 days without getting a Cyprus residency permit.

If you want to live in one country for one year and another country for another year, and so on, each time you relocate you will have to get a new residency permit. If you hold an EU passport, you will have to do the same, it will just be a little easier because the paperwork required is a little less for EU citizens than for 3rd country nationals (which is what non-EU citizens are considered in the EU). I hope this clarifies things.

MissDaisy
  7/8/2016 16:17 EST

BTW, I do not think you need to worry about being denied residency at some future point because the “host country” decided to change their immigration policies. In the rare case that this might happen, you would most likely be grandfathered into the new scheme, (As a result of the Brexit, this is what the Brits are concerned about here right now). I am not living in Cyprus under an investment program although I do own a home here.

But by all means, if you have 300,000 euros to spend on a property and you want to do that, then get yourself an EU passport through the "golden via" program. You can always sell the property. I don't know your financial situation. It's not the approach I would take. But my goal is different than yours. My goal was to retire to Cyprus. I lived here for 3 months, after having lived in Russia, Slovakia, and Bulgaria for work for a total of 7 years. I moved lock, stock, and barrel from the US to Cyprus. I have no intention of returning to the US. I moved here permanently in 2011. I have no regrets. I am very happy in Cyprus. I intend to get citizenship here.

It was not difficult to get a one-year residency permit here in Cyprus. In Cyprus you can be here for 90 days without a permit. I started the application a week after I gt here and received my permit before my 90 days was up. So if you did this and then decided you anted to go off to another country for a year, you'd just have to do the residency permit application in the next country and then the next and so on. The only expense would be the application fee. However, Cyprus required me to have in a special account 855 euros in case they decided to deport me. If every country did this you'd have a bunch of back accounts all over Europe holding 855 euros. This money was released back to me when I was given my Type F visa.

KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
  7/8/2016 16:53 EST

Miss Daisy,

Yes, you have clarified things a little bit.

I understand that each EU country wants to know who is living there so requiring a residency permit makes sense.

But if you are an EU citizen, no EU country can deny your residency application, correct? I just wonder if the same right applies to a person with permanent residency rather than citizenship.

More specifically, I would like to know if the Portuguese golden visa program provides a person with the same rights to permanent EU residency as that of a citizen.

Thanks again.

KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
  7/8/2016 16:59 EST

Our last emails crossed each other...

Funny about the €855 deportation reserve as Ireland requires €150,000. I assume you also need private health insurance?

I have read that Cyprus may sign the Schengen treaty so do you think your status would change vis a vis living in another EU country?

MissDaisy
  7/8/2016 17:16 EST

Yes, you need private private health insurance? I have 1 million euros of in-patient coverage and it costs me 992 euros/yr. I am 57 years old and in good health. I do not know what effects Cyprus signing the Schengen treaty will have on me. I have not been seeing anything in the news here about the Schengen zone. It may be problematic because Cyprus is a divided country. Absolutely you can be denied residency by another EU country if you are an EU citizen, though I imagine it is not very common, You can also be deported. Cyprus is frequently deporting Bulgarians and Romanians, mainly because they have committed crimes. I've said this before and I will say it again, a visa does not give you the same rights as citizenship! My visa is valid in Cyprus only. If I want to visit another EU country I have to abide by the immigration laws of that country. A work permit in Cyprus is not valid in any other EU country. My Slovak work permit was not valid in Bulgaria or Cyprus.

MissDaisy
  7/8/2016 17:19 EST

Oh, one more thing. My residency permit from Slovakia and Bulgaria had no influence whatsoever on getting a residency permit in Cyprus. Cypriot immigration was not interested at all in the fact that I had lived in Slovakia for 1 year and Bulgaria for 3.

OldPro
  7/8/2016 18:25 EST

On other threads people concerned about residency after Brexit are still confused as to what rights someone has or has not.

Part of the confusion is due to the difference between 'registering residency' and 'Permanent Resident.'

An EU national has the right to move to any other EU country. When they do, they have 90 days to 'register residency' and that is not voluntary, it is a legal requirement. But it does not make them a Permanent Resident of that country.

When a non-EU person moves to a country they have that same requirement to 'register residency' but had to get a visa first that allows them to stay more than 90 days. An investment visa, retirement visa, long-stay visa, it differs as to what each country offers. Spain has a retirement visa or Golden visa while France offers only a 'long-stay visa' for example. All give you the same result, the right to stay for a year. All can be renewed almost automatically unless you do something such as commit a crime as MissDaisy has suggested. No one is guaranteed anything including a Golden visa holder.

Next comes a Permanent Resident. A citizen of an EU country did not need to get a visa to 'register residency' but being registered does not make you a Permanent Resident. A citizen of an EU country who wishes to become a Permanent Resident of another EU country has to have lived in that country for 5 years continuously and then apply for Permanent Resident status. They will be granted that status automatically.

A non-EU person who is legally registered as resident can also apply for Permanent Resident status after having lived in the country for 5 years. Chances are they will also be granted that status almost automatically.

So what differs is what has to be done to first live in the country legally. For an EU, nothing and for a non-EU a visa. That is really about the only difference.

Going back to those concerned about Brexit, a lot of people do not understand that the same 5 years applies to both categories. So in theory at least, a Brit who moves today and has not been resident for 5 years by the official exit date of the UK from the EU and is therefore not eligible to apply for Permanent Residency, MAY find that since they are no longer a citizen of an EU country, they could be required to first apply for a visa as a non-EU national without being assured it will be granted.

This difference between 'registered resident' and 'Permanent Resident' is a big deal since it is the Permanent Resident who has RIGHTS that being just registered as resident does not give you.

None of the visas give you automatic Permanent Resident status Kevin, they only get you a 'residency permit'.

Now look at what a company who helps with Golden Visas says about entry to Schengen through the Golden Visa.
"This residency permit will allow the investor and his family members to enter and/or live in Portugal and to travel freely within the vast majority of European countries (Schengen space)." taken from: http://goldenvisa-portugal.com/FAQ.html

What it does NOT say is the right to live elsewhere, only travel. Only a citizen of an EU country has the right to live in any EU country they choose to.

So let me put it bluntly. The average person applying for a long-stay visa of any kind may or may not get one. Someone willing to BUY a visa by investing 500,000E will get preferential treatment. On one site on a retirement visa(not a Golden Visa) for Portugal, I actually read a line that read something like, 'those applying who intend to invest 300,000E or more will be looked on favourably.' That to me clearly indicated you could more or less assure your acceptance if you put your money up. In other words you can BUY a visa acceptance. But no visa of ANY kind gets you the right to live in other EU countries. So what is the advantage to buying acceptance?

So here is the difference. The minimum stay requirements. Normally, to continue residency, a person must live CONTINUOUSLY (you can leave on a vacation for a few weeks) in the country to keep their residency and get it renewed. The Golden visa does not have that requirement. Spain have removed any requirement to spend any time at all in the country as of 2015. Invest the money and you will an automatic renewal of residence permit, the first is 1 year, then 2, then 5 and can continue every 5 years forever.

But that only guarantees you residency in Spain, nothing else. To get Permanent Residency the requirement is still 5 years continuous residency. To get the right to live anywhere in the EU the requirement is still that you become an EU citizen.

So, to get the right to live anywhere you want which is what you actually want, what do you have to do? Answer, live continuously (or at least appear to do so) in any EU country having entered through a visa and becoming a registered resident; applied for and been given Permanent Resident status after 5 years and THEN waiting the required amount of time (3 years) for a Permanent Resident to be able to apply for citizenship.

So once more, NO visa gives you the same rights to live in the EU countries that a citizen of an EU country has. It can LEAD to the same rights but ONLY through citizenship.

If someone just wants to be able to go spend 4 months of winter in Spain every year for example and doesn't want the hassle of having to apply for a long-stay visa each time, the Golden Visa will let them do that. So it has value to some people under some circumstances. It would also let them have the back-up of a place to go and stay more permanently if they chose to do so at some date. But it WON"T do what YOU want to do Kevin. That's why I was talking about a 'go around' and why I do not see any advantage to the Golden visa for what YOU want to do. Nothing will get you the right to live a year here and a year there in the EU except citizenship.

On a side note regarding Cyprus. I am not aware of any real moves for Cyprus to join the EU. There have been talks of Cyprus becoming part of Greece which would indeed then mean they would be part of the EU but that's not really very likely. I know of no talks about them becoming a separate member of the EU at all.

OldPro
  7/8/2016 18:47 EST

An attempt to simplify.

Non-EU national.
1. A long stay visa of some kind (including Golden) will get you a residency permit for a country. That permit is renewable provided you continue to meet all criteria.
2. After 5 years continuous residency you can apply for and expect to be granted Permanent Resident status.
3. After 3 years(may vary by country) of Permanent Resident status you can apply for and expect to be granted citizenship.
4. As a then EU citizen the right to move to any other EU country and live and work in that country.

EU national
1. Automatic residency permit without the need for a visa. The permit is renewable provided you keep your nose clean.
2. After 5 years residency....Permanent Resident automatically granted if applied for.
3. Apply for citizenship if desired.
4. Never required to begin with.

No real difference except in step 1 and 4.

MissDaisy
  7/8/2016 19:00 EST

While I cannot comment on most other countries I can comment on Cyprus, which, BTW OldPro is an EU country and has been for some time. Cyprus is not planning on becoming part of Greece. Not sure where you are hearing this from but that is not gonna happen.

Anyway, I did not have to get a visa before coming to live in Cyprus. As I mentioned before, I applied for my residency permit a week after I arrived. After renewing the annual residency permit 3 times, I then applied for a long-term residency permit, which is called a Type F visa. Apparently you can apply for this Type F visa from outside of Cyprus, but I did not. I did not have to apply for the Type F Visa (Long-term residency permit) at all; I could have continued renewing my annual residency permit but getting the Visa eliminates submitting the nonsense paperwork every year and has saved me some euros in fees. Annual renewal fee runs around 35 Euros, long-term permit fee was 110 euros paid one time. As a non-EU citizen I am not eligible to apply for citizenship until I have lived here in Cyprus for 7 years, not 5 as you have mentioned.

As I mentioned before, and this is the exact wording from my immigration permit, I am "granted an Immigration Permit in the Republic of Cyprus under Category F of Regulation 5 of the aliens and Immigration Regulations of 1972-2004 provided that he/she will not acquire permanent residence outside the Republic of Cyprus or be absent from the Republic for a period exceeding 2 years". Therefore, Kevin, you could get this same immigration permit (if you qualify) and then go an live in Spain for less than 2 years as long as you do not get permanent residence there, then come back to Cyprus for a short time and then go off to another country for less than 2 years. I cannot imagine doing this - I am tired of moving around so much, but maybe you would want to do this.

MissDaisy
  7/8/2016 19:07 EST

Not correct OldPro. A visa is not necessary to get a residency permit. EU nationals can obtain residency permits in another EU country and these are a single application, not requiring renewal (at least in Cyprus).

OldPro
  7/9/2016 11:59 EST

Yes, my mistake MissDaisy, Cyprus is indeed an EU member, I got EU and Schengen mixed up somehow in my mind. Not like me to do that but it proves I'm human. LOL

Re the visa, I'm not sure where you are coming from with that comment. I didn't say an EU national requires a visa to get a residency permit, I said a non-EU national does.

There may be exceptions where a particular country will allow you to enter as a tourist and then apply for residency but most I believe require you to apply for a long-stay visa in your home country.

But all of this is really just likely to add confusion to what Kevin is interested in doing. So I think we should just stick to his situation and what applies to non-EU nationals only.

Kevin wants to live in various countries. Whether he can go to a country and apply then for a residency permit or has to get a visa first before arrival makes no difference. Bottom line is getting a residency permit for ONE country.

In regards to the Golden visa, all it gets you is that residency permit for one country. It does not get you the right to live in any other EU country and I believe that is what Kevin is under the impression it does do. There is no visa that will get you that right. Only citizenship of an EU country will.

I think all 3 of us having this discussion have the same goal. To try and find a way for Kevin to do what he wants to do and we should focus on that. So going back to the desire to live in various countries for longish periods of time, there is really only ONE way to do so legally. That is to get a residence permit for each country when you want to live there. That would no doubt mean having to apply for a visa of some kind from the USA(or if allowed from within a country) each time in Kevin's case and of course assumes it would be granted. Obviously, that is not what Kevin hopes for and wants to avoid. Well, I see no way to avoid it legally.

So that leaves my thinking at least, with the question of legal vs. moral and whether I would be willing to 'bend the law' to achieve what I wanted to do.

I say moral because sometimes what is legal and what is perfectly moral behaviour are not one and the same. With no intention to work or access any benefits of a country's systems such as healthcare, it becomes a very grey area indeed to say that someone who would like to spend a year living in a country is doing anything wrong. Immigration laws that limit stays are not put in place to discourage a long term visitor who brings money to the country. They are put in place to stop illegal workers. The problem is that you can't stop the illegal workers without also limiting the time a visitor can spend in your country. That's where the long-stay visa comes in to allow a genuine visitor to stay longer legally. But it's a hassle. So as I see it, Kevin can do what is legal and get a long-stay visa each time or he can 'bend the law' without doing anything morally wrong even if it is legally wrong.

I would not attempt it from an EU country that is not also a Schengen member country, simply because crossing in and out of Schengen will mean a passport check. Staying within Schengen eliminates that record of movement.

So someone legally resident in Spain or Portugal for example can easily move to France or Italy with no record of that movement. The issue is that after 90 days they are legally required to register residency in that country. Not doing so means there is some risk of some circumstance resulting in being found out to be staying beyond what is legally allowed.

What the consequences of that could then be at worst I believe are being deported back to your home country and not being allowed entry to any Schengen country for up to 7 years. Black listed. But while that is the worst case scenario, I think on a scale of possible to probable, it is not highly probable and therefore for SOME people may be an acceptable risk.

I think it is more probable the person would be given a slap on the wrist, perhaps a fine and told not to do it again.

To me it is really a question of am I trying to do something morally wrong or just saying, I can't be bothered with your rules and choose to play by my own rules. As long as I am willing to accept responsibility for the possible consequences, that choice is up to me.

So bottom line, it is play by the rules and get residency in each country or ignore the rules.

Do you Kevin or you MissDaisy see any other options?

MissDaisy
  7/9/2016 14:59 EST

I did not say you said an EU national needs a Visa to get a residency permit, I said you said that a non-EU citizen needs a visa to get a residency permit. This is not true in Cyprus. I did not need to get a visa to get my residency permit. I had a residency permit that I renewed annually for 3 years without a visa and now I have a Type F visa which IS my residency permit. When I lived in Bulgaria and Slovakia, I applied for residency permits within the country immediately after arrival with no advance visa. In fact I never had A visa for Bulgaria or Slovakia. I cannot speak about other countries as I have only lived in these three EU countries.


I agree Kevin has 2 choices: 1) get EU citizenship in some EU country (and on any fast track option this would take a minimum of a year) and then move about as he wishes obtaining residency in each country as applicable as he moves about or 2) get residency in each country as he moves about. In either case, Kevin should enjoy bureaucracy and have plenty of spare cash as he will be paying a lot of administrative fees and spending lots of time in immigration offices. Personally, I would not enjoy that at all.

And one thing I did not mention earlier is that in some countries (Slovakia did this)in order to get a residency permit you will be required to submit to some medical tests to prove that you are not bringing in any communicable diseases. This includes, but is not limited to, blood tests and chest x-rays. Also, immigration authorities visited my apartment unannounced to verify I was living where I said I was living and that I hadn’t snuck in some other family members. The Slovaks take their immigration laws very seriously.

OldPro
  7/9/2016 19:01 EST

"1) get EU citizenship in some EU country (and on any fast track option this would take a minimum of a year) and then move about as he wishes obtaining residency in each country as applicable as he moves about"

Huh? In what EU country can you get citizenship in one year? That would suit Kevin perfectly if it existed but I am not aware that it exists in any EU country.

MissDaisy
  7/9/2016 19:47 EST

If you invest enough money in a business, property, etc and have a good lawyer to process the application, theoretically it will take a year. In practice, probably not.

OldPro
  7/12/2016 11:36 EST

Here is an article on BUYING citizenship.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27674135
Cyprus and Malta are the only 2 in the EU that have offered it. The article is 2 years old, so things may have changed. If not, Malta sells citizenship for 1.15 Mil Euros plus 1 year residency and Cyprus has dropped their price to 2 Mil Euros if part of a group or 5 Mil as an individual. But given the financial situation of Cyprus, no one would consider that a good investment.

So while it is indeed possible to BUY citizenship, it doesn't make it a good investment unless you have a lot of money lying around doing nothing for you.

Here is an interesting example of how some creativity got an 'ordinary guy' residency without having to invest anything.
http://www.wanderingearl.com/how-i-obtained-residency-in-a-european-country/
He can come and go and renew his residency which in 5 years will lead to citizenship.

I know which way I would try to follow.

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