10 years out? humm well not sure what to say to that one. Things change around here every few months, whatever I could tell you today would be a waste of everyone's time.

One thing I can say is if your planning on IRA'S and money in the bank, you better be pulling it out now, their all set to fall. yes even your government disablity check.

smart money is in land and a home that is paid for. you might not be ready to pull the trigger on land or a home here but you would be wise too.

you might not believe what I am saying, but all you have to do is look at what is going on today, the dollar is on a fall and so is everything else.

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I appreciate your input. I understand that things are in a constant flow of change. That is why I didn't ask for any financial advice, merely laid out the numbers as it seems to be standard operating procedure.

I am more interested in getting to know about the areas that people like, what they are like, what people like to do. Remember, I am hoping to visit these areas 1-2 times per year. I am not worried about the financial situation if an economic cataclysm happens, we've got a plan for that. Family land + subsistence farming, hehe.

As for the IRA's, I didn't calculate those into my income, nor my disability check. Which isn't a government disability by the way, it is military, two completely different sources of funding. I get what you are saying though.

FDIC insures deposits up to 250k per account currently. If we are in a position where the banks completely collapse and the FDIC cannot follow through, well, money is going to be worthless at that point anyway so it doesn't matter.

I agree, the smart investment is land and a house. Luckily we have both currently. We have discussed purchasing a plot of land and holding onto it until we are ready to build. I don't know the laws about buying/holding land in Panama though so I'd have to look into that.

My main goal is to get to know people, learn what I can, visit as often as I can and get to know the areas with the help of locals.

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The bankers are putting the 74 trillion dollar derivative bubble under the FDIC so there won't be any money period.

The people here for the most part are poor, they can't afford to do much so all they have is family. which is a very tight bond for them.

I would go ahead a start your visa paperwork. right now it isn't that hard to get done, the rules that is, years from now they might up all the rules for you to live here.

as of right now, you as a expat can buy a home or land and you have the same rights as they do.

Your main goal is the best way, come, look and listen.

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I can definitely appreciate the family bond. My family is Italian/German and we are very close knit. That is one of the big things that we look forward to , the value of families and close friends.

Next year when we come out, hopefully we'll find a nice area and snatch up some land shortly after. Seems land would be the best non-heavy committal choice. If we do end up changing our minds, land would be easier to unload/less painful to hold onto than a house.

Thanks Mark, you've given me some items to consider.

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Mark, just wondering about something. If the dollar completely collapses, wouldn't that also mean the Panama economy collapses, since it is based on the dollar? I'm kinda thinking that if that is true, I could end up being as broke in Panama and elsewhere as here in the broke USA. Probably a dumb question, but I just had to ask.

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Hey Mark, how ya doing?
I read your latest post on how the dollar is pretty much going to take a nose dive. Very scary.
That started me thinking about how the Panama economy is tied to the dollar and wondering how it will affect Panama if this should happen. Is it possible that expats that live in Panama that are dependent on pensions, social security and money in the bank could also lose everything, and end up being just as bad off as people in the US? It seems to me that if the dollar should tank, that the only expats in Panamad that would survive are people that own a house, grow a lot of their own food, and possibly have a job. Is my logic correct or am I missing something?
Thanks

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Your missing nothing..

we are hooked to the u.s. dollar,, they have minted a one dollar coin, which I have a ton of already... but no 5, 10 , 20 , 50 100, coins which I wish they would print..

here's how I see it.. once the dollar falls, no cash for u.s. or panama..

which means no power.. how is the winters where you are? or the summers? you see we will not freeze or have a heat stroke here..

can you grow food 24/7 12 months a year? we can..

do you have a fresh water spring coming out of the ground all year long? we do..

do you have gang members that out number and out gun your police force? we don't.

how many people live close to you? we have 7k most make less then 200 per month, so if the dollar falls, they won't even miss it.. that's some of the reasons I'm here.

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Well said, Mark. Anyone who pays any attention to current events here in the states can see that people are getting angrier and more desperate by the day. It's only a matter of time before the civil unrest becomes full-blown violence, when people realize that the lives of privilege that they were enjoying under a bunch of smoke and mirrors is gone forever. I would rather not be in the US for that, which is why I will be living in El Valle as of January, 2012. No place is perfect, but I feel safer where the majority of people are used to a modest and simple life, and family takes priority over a bunch of shiny "stuff".

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Hey you guys1 Thge story looks a lot different this side of the pond.. I was reading a leading article in the Telegraph saying the dollar was on the way up. That is was turning yet again into a safe have currency.. I waS thinking darn..... just when i want my pound to go further!

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words on a page is all that is, someone thinks the dollar will go up. The truth is it will go up and down on it's way to the bottom. If you take a test and score a 40 on it out of a 100. not good, can you be happy when you take it again and score a 48? your still below passing.

The problem is the middle class has been all but wiped out. These are the people who paid taxes, and had small companies that hired people to work. These are the people who could take trips and would buy items, and invest.

Now these people have been all but wiped out, jobs lost. I know a lot of people who had retirement money in stocks and other things that have lost it all, instead of them being able to sell their home and then cash all that out and move here they are stuck.

Real estate has dropped 40 to 60 percent. so even their home worth 300k now is 125k.

people are standing there watching the big bankers steal the rest. how about the 590 million loan to the solar company that as soon as they got the money filed for bankruptcy? or the over 500 million loan to a electric car company that after getting the money took it to finland to open the plant instead of in the u.s.

right now the bankers are putting a 74 trillion dollar derivative bubble under the FDIC INS. PLAN. which will cover their lost, but will wipe out the FDIC. which means all your cash in the bank will be gone and they won't cover it.

BOA is already seeing people close their accounts and pull their funds, one church pulled over 3 million out of one branch the other day and are asking others to do the same. this is not money they have on hand.

If you take all the money ever printed and then apply that to the total debt, you still would owe trillions. debt and money is taked out of thin air. you buy a 300k home, they write a check to the home seller. on their books you owe 300k. which will be 600k by the time you ever pay it off.

In the past when the u.s. has been in this shape we got out of it by going to war. a world war not what we have been doing these pass 20 years. a war that kills millions of people. today the u.s. can't win a war like that. all our plants have been shut down, we don't have the means to build planes and tanks like we did.

I know this isn't about panama but it is in a way. what happens to the u.s. will be felt here. there are thousands of expats down here who will lose that s..s check. They will have no choice but to try to sell their homes and other goods here and try to get by day to day, by growing and trading food maybe.

that is why I m trying to put together the funds now to start a fish farm on my land. people will still have to eat. and trading will become the new money, just like other countries have done in the past. you have to be prepared and many here and in the u.s. are not.

right now your seeing service being cut back or closed. police officers and fire fighters are being laid off. police now won't respond to every call. what happens when cities can't pay them? the gangs will take over. we all saw what happen in new orleans, and most of the people had left. blackwater had to be called into service to help control the people.

what happens when this hit's coast to coast? gang members out number police 10 to 1 in some states.

see right now you guys have food, power and income and a home so you think what I am saying far out there, won't happen.. this is the same mind set the american people had before the crash. as long as life goes on like your use too all is fine, until it's not. we all sat back and didn't see what the bankers and wall st. were doing. some did, but looked the other way, getting paid to allow it to happen.

when the dollar falls, you will be at the mercy of gangs and government control. you will do as your told. you will not be allowed to leave. There are plans for this already. ever heard of Agenda 21? it's backed by george soros, and oliver north was asked about it in from of congress in the 80's and the head of the commission told the congressmen who asked him about it to withdraw the question and wouldn't allow north to speak on it.

if you don't know it's a plan to force all of you into small areas, you will no longer own land or homes or farms. you will be living and controlled inside that area.
just think if they can take a small town of say 40k people and that town covers 75 square miles of homes and farms, and put all of you in four high rise buildings. with a foot print of say two city blocks.

Its all about controlling you. you have no freedom,no rights, you speak out your taken out.
sounds crazy doesn't it? but the plans are there to do just that.

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Before I reply - beware the fish farm - half of Nicuragua and err Columbia mangrove by the sea destroyed by these.. Trouble is that is where lots of little fish hatch and now they have no where, fish diminishing even further..

Looking at America - Cheer up! Stop looking at the small picture.. Look at the rest of the world! China should pretty soon pop - they rely on us buying their shi - t and guess what ? we have no money.. Their property is about to crash big time.. I know they own half of the Us and the rest of us but how does that help them?

You had Steve Jobs - the Dreamliner flew today!

The problem with all the men in power is that they finance the future by GROWTH.. Did nobody tell them that things cannot keep growing?? We run out of metals, oil, SPACE, we cannoit keep buying new cars, new this, new that to finance deb ts...

I agree, we should all be self sufficient as countries. Kenya - good example. People starving - BUT THEY GROW AND EXPORT ROSES TO EUROPE!!

Banks are not the true culprits - it is every one of us who borrow to finance a lifestyle. Oh, I can't wait for that new car - borrow on future earnings, Oh bigger house, Oh new winter coat and in the UK on top of that we have half the population who can't be bothered to work... who sit there and are handed houses, money on a plate. And now we are doing ;the same to half of Eastern Europe who have decided they want to live in the UK!!!

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Before I reply - beware the fish farm - half of Nicuragua and err Columbia mangrove by the sea destroyed by these.. Trouble is that is where lots of little fish hatch and now they have no where, fish diminishing even further..

Looking at America - Cheer up! Stop looking at the small picture.. Look at the rest of the world! China should pretty soon pop - they rely on us buying their shi - t and guess what ? we have no money.. Their property is about to crash big time.. I know they own half of the Us and the rest of us but how does that help them?

You had Steve Jobs - the Dreamliner flew today!

The problem with all the men in power is that they finance the future by GROWTH.. Did nobody tell them that things cannot keep growing?? We run out of metals, oil, SPACE, we cannoit keep buying new cars, new this, new that to finance deb ts...

I agree, we should all be self sufficient as countries. Kenya - good example. People starving - BUT THEY GROW AND EXPORT ROSES TO EUROPE!!

Banks are not the true culprits - it is every one of us who borrow to finance a lifestyle. Oh, I can't wait for that new car - borrow on future earnings, Oh bigger house, Oh new winter coat and in the UK on top of that we have half the population who can't be bothered to work... who sit there and are handed houses, money on a plate. And now we are doing ;the same to half of Eastern Europe who have decided they want to live in the UK!!!

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Your last paragraph described China to a T!

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well I'm not looking at the small picture, I know the rest of the world is in deep trouble as well and as we go they go as well. I just really don't care about other countries that I wasn't born in. I have no bond to those.

everything we do there is a bad side trade off. If you drive a car you need gas, they drill for it in the gulf, blow a well head, crack the ocean floor, and pour millions of gallons of it in there. This has wiped out a large area of ocean and has killed everything in those areas.

You want power? I give you japan who has not only killed their own people but as I write this is killing the u.s. and canada as well.

I understand there is a trade off with it all. I will be farming a small scale fish farm. maybe around 30k with no plans to allow it to grow bigger. I plan on using the lastest means to grow them with the less amount of impact on this area as possible. I do live here and my daughters do as well.

Nothing will go to waste, the by products will all be used. I have a stream that runs around my land, and nothing will be going into it or coming out of it.

all waste will be drained into holding tanks and allowed to dry out and that will be used to help local farmers. even the fish guts can be used for farmers or they can be fed to the buzzards. I have seen hundreds of them eat up tons of fish waste in very little time here.

My farm will be small scale, it is mainly for trade products as well as to sell to a few resturants here. nothing like walking out and pulling five fish out for dinner.

The fish I will grow is already here, I buy it by the case at a price mart here, which is a sam wholesale club. once I got the case home on the box it states, grown in CHINA, shipped to the u.s. stamped then reshipped to panama.

I can give three locals a job, that will feed their families, I can sell a product that is local instead of shipping it, and I can sell a product that I know how it was grown, handled and packed.

china has very dirty water, they don't even have enough to drink, they buy water from the u.s. so think about what type of water they are growing their fish? I can pull water from the creek that is here already, but I have had it tested and it isn't as clean as I want. so I will drop a deep well and pull underground water that has been tested and it shows it's so clean I could bottle it and sell it.

ocean fish are getting fished out for one thing. there are times of the year here that the fish are full of worms that are caught at sea. many fishermen I know won't fish during those times. also the larger fish will have chemicals built up inside them to the point it's unsafe to eat them. now many are showing radioactive counts.

as we grow in the number of people on this earth we will use up everything. ocean fish will be a thing of the past and millions more will starve.

I'm not planning for all of that, all I am trying to do is have a plan in place in case the dollar tanks. I will have something to trade for things we might need.

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You have given it a lot of thought Mark and I can see you will do a good job. But ask yourself this.. Firstly, is it not odd to be growing fish in the middle of the countryside.. secondly, extracting pure drinking water from the aquifer will lower it ... thirdly, I do not know of a fish farm that does not have to use a heavy hand with antibiotics and chemicals (apart from a few organic ones in scotland that then have to charge an arm and a leg for the fish).. those same chemicals leach out or wash into the food chain.. even the buzzards can be poinsoned - as has happened in large parts of Africa with the vultures eating meat overdosed on antibiotics etc.

However, I am just being; the devils advocate. I am sure you will do a great job!

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You ask isn't it odd to grow fish in the countryside? I would think growing fish inside a major city would be odd, these are fresh water fish maybe that's the point you were making, that you thought of salt water fish which would need to be close to a ocean.

Here in el valle on the top of one of the mountains there is a chicken farm, that farm I would guess and say they have 1 million chickens there. They have been there for 50 plus years. everyday two semi trucks full of eggs leaves on it's way to the city and another two full of chickens.

there is no smell at all from that farm. even the chicken poo is bagged and sold.

chemicals and antibiotics are used because most farmers want more fish then the system can allow for. once you do this then your looking for trouble and sickness in your fish that will require you to put these chemicals in.

If you keep your fish load down and not over stock it this won't be a problem.

I plan to run 5k fish runs that could handle twice that amount. plus do 6 runs, so that even if there is a problem it won't effect all 30k fish.

farmers get into trouble because of greed and trying to produce more using the same foot print.

first off I'm not greedy. 2nd point I want to make is that my family will be eating these fish and I will never allow them to eat something that I know there might be health risk from. If I am willing to allow my children to eat it then you know it will be safe for you as well.

everything you eat has some form of chemical in it. even organic grown, if they use tap water. many cities tap water has high levels of all types of chemicals as well as antibiotics. one test showed many types of drugs that had been taken and peed out.

as far as extracting the drinking water, our water use will be so small there really won't be a drain on anyone here.. I could even collect rain water, but again there are many bad items in rain water now days.

also the type of fish I will grow eat algae, which means you don't want the water clear, you want the algae to grow reducing the amount of water turn over.

most all of panama gets their water from rain. they pull it out of lakes, filter it and send it down the pipe. panama city last year did without water for weeks due to, too much dirt that had been washed into that lake.

I do thank you for your input thou, I have looked at this from all sides but I could have missed seeing something. I would never want to do anything to harm this area.

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My grandfather worked fish farms for as long as I can remember. In the rocky mountians in western US. A fresh spring supplied the water and it flowed thru the ponds and out into a creek. They never used chemicals of any kind that I ever saw. These fish were mostly used to stock lakes in the forest by the government. We always enjoyed fresh clean fish. It was sweet. Someday I would like to come up to El Valle and see your spread. I go there often anyway.

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Sounds like a similar set up to one of my old neighbors here in TN...they had a small fish farm, using their own pond. Their family ate the fish and they sold some locally. It was good stuff - I'm not glowing yet. :)

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Still seems to me that the best way to improve the living standards of the local people is through tourism... After all, if you don't encourage the tourists, there will be few to buy the fish!

It is depressing to see how everywhere is getting trashed by overpopulation. Costa rica sells itself on natural beauty then sneakily slaughters thousands of sharks for their fins.. Vietnam has finally managed to make extinct it's wonderful white hippo..I suppose soon the birds in Panama will be caged up and sent off... you can tell my glass if half empty lol...!

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well to be truthful, I really don't care about tourist coming here, deep down I wish none of them would move here. with 30k fish to sale with three million people, it shouldn't be a problem.

tourist coming to panama does help with many jobs in this country, but overall we can do fine without them. the canal brings in the bulk of the money to run this country. unlike costa rica who are raping their people to get more money out of them due to the fact that their tourist trade is way down.

tourist come here then they want to live here. which is great if they can leave their idea of what life should be here, back home and understand how it is here and even thou their way might be slow and none workable it's the way it's going to be.. take it from me a person who still has 2008 car tags on my car.

expats do a lot of good here and they do a lot of bad as well. they pay far to much for things, which I do as well, but the main thing is they try to change things to the way they think they should be.

men here will pee in the street from time to time. you can see cars pulled over by the side of the road and someone using the bathroom right there.

these people love anything loud. music has to be bone breaking and all hours of the night.

trash is something you throw out when ever where ever.

dogs are unkept and allowed to roam free. most are in very bad state.

chickens might be right next to your home.. nothing like hearing them at 3am 4 am 5 am ect.

they will burn their trash.

they will stop in the middle of the road and make a phone call.

they will drive a car that should be in a junk yard, while drunk, and after they hit your car will scream it's your fault, even thou it isn't and without you really getting the proof you need it might turn out to be your fault anyway.

young women will have 5 kids before age 25. and can't feed any of them.

panama has no help for mental people so they roam the streets. one mayor in colon rounded up 6 or 7 of his problem people and dumped them in another town, just to get rid of the problem.

there can be a hole in the road that will rip your tire off, without any cones around it. you hit it, your fault you should have been watching.

these are just some of the things I can think of, should they be changed? yes maybe so, but this is how they have lived from day one and that's going to be hard to try to change that. you don' t have to do it, but your not going to change them from doing it.

china is killing the sharks, costa rica is just allowing them to do it. as well as steal turtle eggs off the beaches.

a poor person can not afford to look at wild life and protect it, these people understand the taking of turtle eggs is wrong and it will end up making it extinct but they do it to put food on the table for their kids which is far more important to them then saving turtles.

people sale all types of wild birds here, they climb up and steal them out of the nest and sale them. many times the buyers are expats. I own two but they are not parrots but parakeets that are raised at the zoo.

even ours that are outside in their cage, looking at the world and have clean food and water, still makes me want to open the cage and set them free. its just not fair to them, I get that same feeling when we go to the zoo here.

I understand your feelings on it and yes my glass is half empty when I think of the things we do to our world. I love panama, I guess for me it's being able to go places and see things that I would not see back in the u.s. 4 hour drive to a mountain or 12 hours to beach is all within 30 mins for me here.

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That sounds great, I could set it up so that the river runs in and out of mine, but I really don't trust the water quality due to the fact that the locals will dump all types of things into the river. I don't trust what might or might not be in that water. Plus I don't want to add anything to it that might hurt it.

we grew catfish back in ark. but down here people have no clue what a catfish is. most want ocean fish, sea bass is the number one seller, and I will be raising Tilapia. I have eaten this fish many times and it is very white meat and non fishy.. we go down and fish the big lake here and we bring in peacock bass, they are good as well, but they do have the fishy taste to them. It's a great day out, we nail 100 at least.

great views and a great day on the lake..

that fresh water coming in and out keeps many problems away from the fish.

I met a guy here at a bar in panama that is growing ocean fish they put up huge nets out in the ocean. the funny thing was he was living not far from me in ark. years ago.. small world.

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I just have to chime in on this discussion. As far as Panama needing tourism in order to have people to pay for local products, just look at what tourism has done to Costa Rica. There is a major downside for any country that relies on tourism as a major source of their economy. The country that can be as self-sufficient as possible is the country that will survive almost any worldwide economic problems.
Also, as far as being self-suffiicient is concerned, when I visited Panama last August and met some people that know the country well. They told me it is really easy to start some small business there. All you have to do is figure out what the town you are living in need. We were eating at a restaurant in Pedasi, and she told me that there are times when the restaurants in that town run out of fruit. She pointed to a tree outside the restaurant that was full of some kind of fruit. She said the people in that town never think of just going outside and picking them off the tree! They wait for someone to bring them to them, even though they are right there. She said it would be easy for anyone to just pick this fruit, and drop by markets, restarurants, etc., and sell it. She said they'd love it. Go figure. I just had to share that story.

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yeah thats the problem in C.R. tourist was the main product once they were gone so were the jobs, and these people can't find work so they are stealing to pay for things.

here in panama it's to cheap to do anything yourself. there is always someone that will do the work for a few dollars. and it feels good to help them out. you feel sorry for them and you know they have kids to feed.

I love it, I have had to cut grass for most of my life, just trying to keep my own companies cut, plus cutting my 30 acres. it feels so great to come home and see a fresh cut yard for little money.. and it's not me out there doing it..

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