stgibson
1/20/2014 15:16 EST
Has anyone on this forum experienced problems with their FBI report in regards to permanent residency with Panamanian Migracion? We moved our business and ourselves here 1 1/2 years ago and applied to Migracion for permanent residency. I turned my FBI report over to Migracion which showed 6 arrests and 0 convictions, most of which occurred in the late 60's or early 70's and were very minor offenses ( I was a long haired hippy living in the deep south in my college years) and they didn't need much of a reason to hassle me. Anyway, we were refused on our first application for my FBI report. It turned out this was due to improper translation. Arrest was translated as "detenido" which in Spanish legal jargon means "imprisoned". This was corrected to read "arestado" which means you were arrested and found not guilty which there is no record of in Panama. We provided Panamanian police reports, letters from several local politicians who have known us for several years and a petition from over 100 of our neighbors stating that we are good law abiding citizens and work hard foe the betterment of our community. We applied for our reconsideration and were again turned down referencing my FBI report and it appeared that they had read nothing in our "reconsideration petition". We are again appealing to the Ministerio de Seguridad Publica, our final appeal. We have spent over $7000 in legal fees and permits now and over $200,000 in moving our business and residence here without any light of hope of being able to stay. Don't get me wrong, we both love Panama and the culture and people here, but what does it take?
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volcan357
1/20/2014 15:53 EST
I like Panama and have lived here for 14 years but if I was faced with your situation I would try somewhere else. There are other nice places besides Panama. Panama only used to require a local police report. How about Ecuador or Chile, or Uruguay.
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stgibson
1/20/2014 16:11 EST
Thanks for the reply but that is not the solution I am looking for. From what I understand the countries you mentioned also require an FBI report and I don't have $200K funds to move my business and residence every couple of years because the US is the only country that keeps track of arrests. I will probably go talk to the US Embassy in PC for what good that will do. The FBI supplies no information to anyone on how to read their reports, including the states in the US. Each state has to send a representative to a school and then return to their state and write a manual on how to read it. So they just give this to Panama and expect them to be able to understand it. A country that does not keep records of arrests. Go figure.
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stgibson
1/20/2014 17:03 EST
I would also be very grateful to suggestions from Panamanians as to a solution to this problem.
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bb1fit
1/21/2014 11:17 EST
I am in the process of the same thing. I am a bit concerned also, as I found out 3 years ago when I went to a Nuke plant that I had an 'arrest' on my FBI report for an offense that was a misdemeanor from 1971. I have been all over the world in many what would be high classified places working with no mention of this ever other than that one time (was expunged off my record, by everyone I guess except the FBI). I, too was a long hair in those years. I hope you keep posting, because I am also leery of this same thing happening to us.
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stgibson
1/21/2014 12:19 EST
This has been a nightmare, after firing our first attorney (a large firm in PC, who totally screwed up pretty much everything including the FBI translation) and talking with a dozen other attorneys we found one in PC who actually understands the law and the differences. In Panama if you are arrested and are acquitted or the charges dropped there is no record of the arrest or charge. If you are found guilty and fined or imprisoned then this goes on your police report. The FBI report is a report that states that your fingerprints have been taken and what you were arrested for and sometimes does or does not give outcome of the arrest. This depends or whether or not the the state or county you were arrested in forwards their determination. I most state manuals that explain "how to read an FBI report" there is a section that states that if there is no determination of the arrest on the report then you are presumed to have been found not guilty. I blame both the FBI and Panama for this obvious mess. If Panama is going to use this report then they need to have someone trained to read it and if the FBI is going to allow the use of their reports for immigration purposes then they should train someone to read it. Catch 22. I know this has put us in a world of hurt after spending a fortune to move here over something as stupid as this setting up a life threatening road block.
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tharin4prez
1/21/2014 15:55 EST
Having an arrest or two isn't a killer with immigrations. A person with a record is almost ALWAYS denied the first time. Its then up to you and your lawyer to ask for a personal interview with the immigrations directorate.
Most lawyers will tell you the isn't possible, but it is in fact possible. Anyway, before the interview, you need to contact to city(s) in which you were arrested and get copies of the court reports from the court reporters office. Make sure tyh dated on the report match that of the FBI report. This of course will only work if the arrestsvwere of a misdamenor type ofence. Felonies and dead beat dads will still get denied .
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stgibson
1/21/2014 18:32 EST
We asked for an interview on filing our reconsideration but were not given one. It is not so simple getting court records from 45 years ago. I know this because 2 years before we moved her I went in to renew my SC drivers license that I had had for 35 years and was told that I could not drive anymore because my license was revoked in VA. Someone with the same name ( no DL number, SS number or Birth date) had gotten a DUI In NC in 1973 and VA had revoked my license to drive which I had exchanged for a SC license 5 years prior to this event. To make a long story short, it took over a year, had to hire attorney's in three states and cost me over $6K in legal fees not to mention the fact that the VA legal was handled by one of my best friends who happened to now be the Judge in the county it was revoked in. US states have just in the past 10-15 years computerized their old records and as you can see they made a mess of it.
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stgibson
1/21/2014 19:03 EST
The FBI complies data submitted to them in the form of fingerprints by the different states. It is up to each state to provide information back to the FBI as to the disposition of their original submission. Half of the time they don't, especially if the charges were dropped for insufficient evidence. Half of the minor misdemeanor arrests I had were dropped because there was no legal reason for me being arrested in the first place, however they never bothered to send this back to the FBI, so there is a record of an arrest simply because they submitted my fingerprints. The only submission that did not show up was from 1963 in which my fingerprints were submitted to the FBI when I completed the requirements for the Boy Scout merit badge. The FBI report is not a criminal report and is plainly stated as such. It is a report based on data (fingerprints) received.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/02/opinion/neighly-fbi-background-checks/
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volcan357
1/21/2014 20:07 EST
You mean if you have a misdemeanor charge against you from when you were a kid because you were at a drinking party then the FBI makes that part of your permanent record that can haunt you 50 or 60 years later? That sounds really crazy. Somebody needs to sue the FBI. I am lucky I got my residency here years ago. In fact now I have more than residency. I am a Panamanian citizen.
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stgibson
1/21/2014 20:50 EST
This is our goal. Didn't think it would be this hard, but think it will be worth it, if nothing else for my sons. Nothing that comes easy is worth having!
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volcan357
1/23/2014 14:36 EST
I just thought I would ad that you don't have much consistency here in Panama. This means that what will work one time may not work the second time or vice versa. Perhaps maybe you should keep trying. I would try a lawyer in David named Angulo. He is honest, reasonable and very good. He speaks perfect English as he received his law degree in the States. He has gotten residency for many gringos.
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volcan357
1/23/2014 20:50 EST
What I mean is Panama is very hit and miss. The same strategy gets different results in different places and at different times. You for example are an American tourist and you try to open a bank account at a certain bank using your passport as an ID. The people at the bank say it is against their policy to let you open an account because you are only a tourist. You go to a different branch of the same bank and they open an account for you. Or you go back to the same branch at a different time and somebody different waits on you and gives you an account. This is what I call lack of consistency. Another example. You are looking for an item and you go to all the stores that would be the most likely places to sell this item. You have no success and conclude that maybe you are not going to find this item in Panama. Later you are in a store that sells items totally unrelated to the item you were looking for but there you see the item you were looking for. My conclusion is that if something doesn't work the first time that doesn't mean it won't work the second or maybe the third time. Keep trying.
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stgibson
1/24/2014 17:37 EST
Yes, I can relate to that. The Banking inconsistency is related to "cooperation with the US government" . The other problems are related to inventory control by Panamanians, they are still 10-15 tears behind on this, but it keeps the gas pumps busy.
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stgibson
1/24/2014 18:12 EST
Update!
We presented our appeal yesterday to the Ministerio de Seguridad Publica at the Migracion office in Panama City. We asked to speak with the legal consul at Migration because we had questions about procedures for returning to Panama on Tourist Visa if our appeal was rejected. My wife is Brazilian and I am from the US. The consul looked at me and asked if I was from the US and asked where my wife was from. She told my wife she would not have any problem but that I might. We have read over the last 6-8 months that US Homeland security and TSA where doing training with Panamanian Immigration. She then explained that on Tuesday Migracion had implemented a new system at Toucamen Airport which gave officers there instant access to FBI arrest records. They told me that if I flew back into Toucamen that I might be refused entry into Panama. I told her I have no convictions just records of arrests. They said that didn't matter, that I could be denied entry based on the mood of migracion on that day. Scary huh? My next stop was the US Embassy. I waited and talked to a vice consul there and explained what I was told at Migracion. He said they had nothing to do with Panamanian Immigration!!! What about training and sharing information with Homeland Security?????? Nothing???? even scarier. See Embassy link http://panama.usembassy.gov/pr012214.html I popped a hypothetical question to the vice consul " what if a guy books a vacation to Panama, flies into the airport, gets to immigration and is refused entry because he had a DUI arrest 20 years ago, was acquitted but is still refused entry into Panama. His reply was " I guess he will have to go back". Great vacation huh?
By the way Migracion told me the system is only in use at Toucamen and not at the border crossing "yet" and this only applies to tourist visas (keeping my fingers crossed). Oh, this only applies to US citizens, no one else, except countries where entry visas are denied.
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stgibson
1/24/2014 18:12 EST
Update!
We presented our appeal yesterday to the Ministerio de Seguridad Publica at the Migracion office in Panama City. We asked to speak with the legal consul at Migration because we had questions about procedures for returning to Panama on Tourist Visa if our appeal was rejected. My wife is Brazilian and I am from the US. The consul looked at me and asked if I was from the US and asked where my wife was from. She told my wife she would not have any problem but that I might. We have read over the last 6-8 months that US Homeland security and TSA where doing training with Panamanian Immigration. She then explained that on Tuesday Migracion had implemented a new system at Toucamen Airport which gave officers there instant access to FBI arrest records. They told me that if I flew back into Toucamen that I might be refused entry into Panama. I told her I have no convictions just records of arrests. They said that didn't matter, that I could be denied entry based on the mood of migracion on that day. Scary huh? My next stop was the US Embassy. I waited and talked to a vice consul there and explained what I was told at Migracion. He said they had nothing to do with Panamanian Immigration!!! What about training and sharing information with Homeland Security?????? Nothing???? even scarier. See Embassy link http://panama.usembassy.gov/pr012214.html I popped a hypothetical question to the vice consul " what if a guy books a vacation to Panama, flies into the airport, gets to immigration and is refused entry because he had a DUI arrest 20 years ago, was acquitted but is still refused entry into Panama. His reply was " I guess he will have to go back". Great vacation huh?
By the way Migracion told me the system is only in use at Toucamen and not at the border crossing "yet" and this only applies to tourist visas (keeping my fingers crossed). Oh, this only applies to US citizens, no one else, except countries where entry visas are denied.
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BellaPanama
1/25/2014 01:23 EST
I have heard and read of several people receiving visas for felonies and haven't spent near that much for legal fees. I am sorry you are going through this and hope everything gets worked out. Prayers the business continue's to do well too!
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volcan357
1/25/2014 12:01 EST
It appears that what we have here is incompetence involving both governments which is not surprising. I imagine the consequences of their new system will eventually force them to change it but that doesn't help people at the present time. Panamanian authorities need to realize that US law enforcement is subject to doing stupid things and that they don't exactly have the interests of Panama as a priority. Panama needs it's tourist business as a good part of the economy depends on it. The FBI shouldn't be keeping records of minor local offenses and they certainly shouldn't be sharing those records with foreign governments. Foreign government are going to assume they are serious offenses because they figure otherwise the FBI wouldn't make them available to them. It doesn't occur to foreign officials that the FBI is doing something stupid or something it shouldn't be doing. A lot of people have had minor offenses against them when they were young so I imagine at some point we will have an enormous of complaints.
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stgibson
1/25/2014 18:54 EST
Amazing isn't it. If you would like a little more background on the subject of US/Panamanian relations read " Panama - Kevin Buckley, published 1990, a must read for expats and probably more so for Panamanians. I have reported what is happening here accurately by information given me by the aforementioned resources. However, if you are prone to a cold cerveza and mesquite smoked chicken we could talk some more.
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MushroomMike
1/27/2014 20:56 EST
Too late now, but I would have gone through the permanent residency process BEFORE I moved my business to any country.
It's a tough lesson what you have been through, but hopefully some ex-pats-to-be will learn from your mistakes.
The FBI has never been known for its treatment of its own citizens well. They have a history of abuse towards most people. You were probably hassled by the FBI when you were a long-hair, too!
I certainly hope you are able to work this out favorably!
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stgibson
1/28/2014 14:38 EST
Thanks, but my business was "invited" here. It is also very difficult to close one's business for 2 years while you go thru the "migracion process". I really had no idea that I would have this kind of problem as I have never been convicted of anything much less thought that arrests from 40-50 years ago would show up. My Grandfather and mentor was a US Federal District Court Judge for District 1 (DC) and if he knew would probably be rolling over in his grave. I graduated from Stanton Military Academy and studied constitutional law where Ricardo Martinelli was a classmate and then studied pre law at the University of Richmond before deciding to change my major to engineering. I thought "outside the box" and this wound up landing me in awkward positions in those days, hence some arrests because I was outspoken in reference to "civil liberties". I guess this is still discouraged, but then what is life without freedom. And Yes, had I know this up front I would have come and lived on a tourist visa for 2 years and then applied using a Panamanian police report which would have saved much frustration, thousands of dollars and gotten Uncle Sam's stranglehold off.
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tharin4prez
1/28/2014 15:15 EST
Ever notice all the cars on the road and houses displaying the Republics flag? Panamanians are taught at a VERY early age and throughout school to be proud of the country. I would never attempt to engage in a pro/con argument about Panama w/ a proud national [again]. Learned that lesson many years ago!
Anyway, since you mentioned above about being outspoken about 'civil liberties' as well as long haired stuff previously ... the authorities whom disapproved your application due to your FBI background document may have interpreted your previous outspoken ways to possibly be counterproductive to their patriotism going forward. ?? Should you be afforded the opportunity to once again appeal their decision … if I were you I would attempt to make a point to bring up how wrong your previous life was speaking against your home nation? Freedom of speech is not as it seems here. Just like a politicians apology, you don’t have to mean it … just say it.
Just a thought …
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tammieoc
1/29/2014 10:16 EST
I'm sorry to hear what's happening to you. Thanks for your post, I hope you'll keep us updated as I am not at that process yet but hope to be soon. I too have a misdemeanor offense from 31 years ago that was supposed to be expunged. Now I'm a bit concerned about that showing up in Panama when I get there. Is there a way to see exactly what's on you're FBI record?
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stgibson
1/29/2014 10:58 EST
You have to order the report from the FBI. That doesn't mean you hsve to give it to Migracion. If you live here for 2 yeaes on tourist visa you can apply with Panama criminal report. Had I known this in advance this is what I would have done. We have already been here for 1 1/2 years and spent thousands on residency. Talk to a good attorney with report in hand.
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tammieoc
1/29/2014 20:31 EST
Thank you for that information as well. I'm relieved to know that there is another option if in fact it does show up. I panicked big time after I read your post. Didn't even want to tell my husband about that possibility until I could get some more information. So thank you again. So grateful for the forums and groups. I really do hope in my heart of hearts that you and your family get to stay. I can only imagine the anguish you must feel over your circumstances. Best of luck to you.
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enn1951
11/8/2014 22:58 EST
Shouldn't there be a statute of limitations regarding felony convictions? 45 years is a lifetime!
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forrest02
11/8/2015 18:54 EST
I have resonantly bought land outside of santiago, to retire, but got a DUI in florida back in july 2015 knock down to reckless driving. Can I do the two year visa, then get my Res with panama back ground check . Does anyone know how this works.
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Travelocity
11/8/2015 20:25 EST
yes, it works. I know of a girl who got drug charges (weed possession) and lived here 2 year. do visa run, then get panama background check. got her papers now
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stgibson
11/8/2015 22:40 EST
Sorry for not responding quickly but we were exhausted. After a final appeal to the Minesterio de Seguridad which went on for 19 months we finally won our appeal and were granted permanent residency the first of August. Our lawyers kept constant pressure on the ministry however it became an increasing problem to get a letter from them stating that our appeal was still active which was required to renew our temporary residency every 90 days. Our temporary residency expired July 29th, 2015 and rendered us illegal in Panama and our lawyers were unable to get the letter from the Ministry to renew our temporary visas. My wife who is Brazilian called the Brazilian Embassy. I got p----d off finally and called the US Emabassy and raised H--l. I also compiled an in depth account of what we had been through for almost 3 years and sent copies to La Prensa, New York Times, Washington Post and the Christian Science Monitor. Low and behold 2 days later we were informed that we had won our appeal ( which is not common) to the Ministry and our residency had been approved. Catch 22: We were illegal as our temporary visa was expired as were our driver's licenses and our passports but the only way we could receive our permanent residency card was to get to Panama city from Chiriqui. Can't take a plane without a visa or stamped passport at the airport security, can't take a bus as they check everyone's visa's at border checkpoints, can't drive because they check license's and visa's at border checkpoints. We decided to drive risking confiscation of our vehicle and arrest. After going through 4 police checkpoints with my thumb placed conveniently over the expiration date of my driver's license and a ream of paperwork designed to confuse we made it to Panama City and now after 3 years and $20,000 we are permanent residents. The 2 year living here process works and if I had thought that I would have had a problem with my FBI report to begin with this is what I would have done. Again I had no convictions and was the problem of the FBI reporting dispositions. For those of you who are interested, they are trying to close this loophole. As of February 2014 which was when US Homeland Security finished 10 months of training for Panamanian Migracion and turning over database of FBI records and gradually filtering into the system, I am not sure. If you have interest PM me and I will give you the names of 2 attorneys who I trust and keep up with what is going on. One in David and one in Panama City.
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stgibson
11/9/2015 08:22 EST
No offense meant, but with the current presidential lineup in the US, I probably would have paid $40K.
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Panama2017
11/9/2015 08:33 EST
No offense here either...really. I want to live in Panama too. But have you been following the track record for the last president in Panama? At least no US president is not fleeing the country...not yet anyway. But on the GOP side, I have to agree with you. Top two in the polls (with a large lead) are generally unfit to serve. Anyway, running away won't fix anything substantive fir anyone who plans to rely on SS.
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John63
11/9/2015 08:53 EST
Can anyone tell me what (non felony) infractions will cause problems. Would a DUI keep you from getting a residency visa? You said if you stay 2 years on a tourist visa you can get a Panamanian Police report. Don't you have to cross the border before it expires which is normally 90 days?
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ginabina
11/10/2015 02:09 EST
do you mean the 90 day tourist visa for two years? Or is there something else?
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stgibson
11/10/2015 08:41 EST
Tourist visa's in Panama are valid for 180 days (6months), however if you plan to drive, your foreign driver's license is only valid for 90 days. You will have to make a border run or plan a trip outside the country every 180 days for the tourist visa or every 90 days for your driver's license. I know this doesn't make much sense but few bureaucratic rules do. The time requirement outside Panama has varied between a couple of hours to 24 hours depending on the border crossing.
The law in Panama still stands as of this writing and states that if you have lived here on a valid tourist visa for 2 years without leaving the country for over 30 days at a time you can apply for residency with a Panamanian police report. As I mentioned before they are talking about changing the law and to some extent it already has affected policy. I was in talking to my attorney in David in July. he has another client who has resided here for 17 years on a tourist visa and recently applied for permanent residency using the Panamanian police report. He had been convicted of a felony some 25 years ago in the US. Everything went smoothly in his processing and they were about to accept his application when the Director of Migracion in David asked him where he had last resided in the US. He told them, which was the same state where he had been convicted. The Director went on his computer and found the conviction and promptly canceled his application. As I stated in an earlier post, the US Dept. of Homeland Security trained Panamanian Migracion and turned over internet access to criminal background checks and apparently this has spread beyond Tocumen. To what extent I am not sure. The result of our appeal to the Ministerio de Seguridad has resulted in opening the eyes of the government and clarifying the difference between misdemeanors and felonies. I also hand delivered a copy of the report done by the US Dept. of Justice concerning the accuracy of FBI criminal background checks to the current Minister of Secutity, Rodoflo Aguilera. I am beginning to see some easing of there policies as they are beginning to understand the differences in our legal systems. Again, to what extent I do not know. The key to this is to use a good attorney who keeps up to date on this and never turn over an FBI Background Check to Migracion if there is ANYTHING on it without first consulting with a good attorney who understands this.
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stgibson
11/10/2015 08:56 EST
Actually I find this quite heartening. They actually "do something" about it here. This is part of the "political culture" in Latin America. This also occurred several years ago in Costa Rica where they indited and extradited 3 past presidents. Latin Americans are sick of corruption and are responding. The US might have survived had we not been so apathetic following the political upheavals in the 60's. But then the powers to be learned how to control the media.
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juanmdt
3/21/2017 14:08 EST
Thanks for sharing your experience. In my case, my father paid a jail sentence and after entering Panama for several years to visit me, in September of the previous year they did not allow him access and he was deported. Thank you for informing me about the lawyer who helped in your case, maybe he can give me a light so my dad can come and visit me. Thank you
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expatdude
4/3/2017 15:34 EST
Dude... you're doing it the wrong way. This is not the US, get yourself a dirty lawyer and pay the fee, you will get accepted. Internally you might feel bad for a few days by doing it the wrong way, but that's the way it works here sometimes.
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