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starsnstripes
  1/11/2018 06:09 EST

Researching a visa for Portugal sometime to get the free healthcare. Can anyone let me know how safe the city is? Is it OK to walk around without my 9 in my pocket ?

william70
  1/11/2018 07:01 EST

Health care isn't free to all, only to Portuguese
Born and bred nationals, and certain Euro countries with a reciprocal agreement,
When you talk of safety in the city you don't mention which city, perhaps your reference to a nine in your pocket is a joke, if it refers to a gun, I think your comments need reporting.

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mariaorr
  1/11/2018 07:45 EST

hello,

I live in Canada but visit Portugal multiple times during the year. I recently purchased a beach house with the intent to retire in Portugal, the birthplace of my parents. You do not need a 9 in your pocket LOL you must be from the USA ?
having said that, there is a lot of crime in Lisbon, mostly pick pockets, don't walk around with expensive cameras, or Rolex watches and expensive jewellery, blend in like the locals; a lot of the crime is not published. I have never been mugged in Lisbon, but there are pick pockets everywhere;
I was mugged at gun point in Barcelona 2 years ago; I was attacked and punched in Morocco last year, no matter where you go, I was attacked in San Francisco by a homeless man, so crime everywhere I am afraid. Toronto is by far the safest city, unfortunately not good for retirement as it is too cold in winters and that's why I want out too.

mariaorr
  1/11/2018 07:48 EST

Healthcare is free to nationals only and European citizens with reciprocity; A residence visa will not guarantee you free healthcare; besides, trust me, in Portugal the healthcare is much to be desired, it's is horrible, I have been to local hospitals in Lisbon and it is horrible, everything is still from the dark ages, the beds are all rusted to hell. It pays to have private healthcare in Portugal.

mariaorr
  1/11/2018 07:50 EST

@william70 - Don't be offended about the 9 mm - very common in the States, everyone has a gun. I was born and raised in Africa, and I too have a 9 in my purse and under my pillow as I slept at night;

Bothfeetin
  1/11/2018 11:31 EST

I think one needs to travel to discover that life is different outside the US. It sounds as if you have not been outside the US, or perhaps even outside your county. I would suggest traveling to many different countries prior to focusing questions on Portugal. Start with looking at Cabo San Lucas Mexico, this sounds as if it might be a good place for you to start if you want to retire outside the US starsandstripes,

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mariaorr
  1/11/2018 11:36 EST

I disagree, Mexico is a very dangerous place; anywhere in the Caribbean is unsafe to live. On the resorts not so bad;

william70
  1/11/2018 17:33 EST

The fact is I and a lot of other UK nationals are entitled to the health service in Portugal,
But having registered for this I didn't expect to use the service provided, to gain a driving licence however I needed to have a doctor confirm that I was of sound mind etc. As a matter of course I made the appointment. It turned out It would have taken six months.
I use a local private clinic which appears to run on the same lines as the UK national health service. The cost €50 for a consultation, I find that acceptable as a guest. However I wouldn't like to suffer from a very serious condition.
All of this I wouldn't discuss with a local, that might be rude or offensive.

Filoso
  1/11/2018 21:37 EST

I would not count on that entitlement too much longer you've been Trumped!

GoingCrazyGoing
  1/11/2018 22:12 EST

I guess the best question is WHY did you pick Portugal out of the whole world ?
What continents have you been to ?
IF you're into guns Mexico sounds like a great idea, you can practice shooting banditos.
OR anywhere in central America too.
Lots of ex military love the Phillipines and Thailand too. CHEAP, great beaches and lots to do.
Cheap living on a small military pension.

dfh4jesus
  1/11/2018 22:16 EST

Wow . . . I don't think Europeans champion carrying guns as much as some citizens in the United States. You may want to reconsider relocating to Europe. The U.S. is probably the best place on the planet to live if you love the Second Amendment. I wonder if living in some country that does not value the Second Amendment as much as you do is worth the reduced or free cost of healthcare. By the way, you specified a country but your query referenced an unspecified city.

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dfh4jesus
  1/11/2018 22:26 EST

As a follow-up, many Europeans find the United States' fascination and obsession with guns inexplicable and inane.

mariaorr
  1/12/2018 08:02 EST

@goingcrazygoing
LOL - your are hilarious ( shooting banditos) .

northofyou
  1/19/2018 14:52 EST

@mariaorr I don't know. I have lived in the USA all my life, and neither I nor anyone in my family nor any of my friends owns a gun. I find the false sense that one needs a gun to be disturbing and a contributor to the high numbers of gun deaths in the USA each year. I prefer a country where they are difficult to come by. Just my two cents.

dfh4jesus
  1/19/2018 15:37 EST

Response to northofyou: Amen. I agree with you one hundred percent!

mariaorr
  1/19/2018 15:45 EST

if you wee born and raised in Africa, and had witnessed a murder, perhaps then you would realize how sometimes, not always, a gun is needed to protect the one you love.

dfh4jesus
  1/19/2018 16:00 EST

You make an excellent point that wasn't considered. Probably staying put in the U.S. where legal and liberal access to firearms for the protection of your family is welcomed and respected is the way to go.

mariaorr
  1/19/2018 16:23 EST

I don't live in the United States; and don't be judgemental. There are lots of guns in Portugal that are not registered and you guys in Portugal do nothing; lots of crime; thieves, domestic violence, and all sorts of other crap, so spare me that Portugal is crime free and gun free.

MidMO
  1/20/2018 09:55 EST

I'm somewhat mystified by some of these assertions. "Lots of guns"? How does one know, especially if they are not registered? Crime statistics are often underestimates. But still, how reliable are they? What are the rural urban trends? Could we possibly speak in terms of specifics rather than generalizations that contribute little to the forums understanding of the issues.

As an american, I'd be happy to have an offline chat about the complex issues of gun ownership in the states.

sepharad
  1/23/2018 11:06 EST

America does not know how to play with others. Nor do Americans believe they need to. As a result, we have little reciprocity with European societies. As examples;

In Europe, we have the E.U. For all it's failings, it's presence says something about European vs American mentality. It is an attempt to say "We have common needs, values and goals". If in the Eurozone, I am taxed based on WHERE I live and work, not where I am from. If I am French and I live and work in Portugal, I pay my taxes in Portugal.

In the US, we cooperate with NO ONE. If I live in Portugal, My retirement check must FIRST go into a US Bank account so the US government can track me. I must pay Taxes to the US, even though I am living in Portugal and using Portuguese services. This is typical of the US and part of the "going it our way" thinking pattern. Not the "we are all together" way of thinking.

Medical care

I am a registered Nurse. I will tell you up front that the American Medical system is powered by greed and profits to drug manufacturers,politicians and most importantly, insurance companies. If I had purchased my retirement medical insurance for $925 per month and moved to Europe, it would be useless. This is because the US PLAYS WELL WITH NO ONE. American insurance companies 1) will not pay out claims in Europe. 2) would argue over prices with European providers in an attempt to avoid payment. My insurance would be unsuable here. As a result, Europe has no interest in us as medical residents. Why should they? The US will not care for Euro zone residents in America, why should they give free care to us?

Guns

I am a gun owner. Before I was a RN I was a law clerk. I carried a gun. Let us be honest. In most places and times, Americans don't need to carry a gun. In a few locations and professions they do. Some Amaericans LIKE to carry a gun. Like is not need.

I have seen none of the chaos, anger and assinine behavior I saw daily in America, while here in Portugal. If you want to carry a gun, need to carry a gun, like insurance, go your own way. You wont do it in Europe. They have no comprehension of the American gun mentality. it doesn't fit in here. You might as well ask "can I wear my pants on my head"?
No ones going to assault you. There are no drive-bys. It's nice, it's safe and it's friendly.

sepharad
  1/23/2018 11:06 EST

America does not know how to play with others. Nor do Americans believe they need to. As a result, we have little reciprocity with European societies. As examples;

In Europe, we have the E.U. For all it's failings, it's presence says something about European vs American mentality. It is an attempt to say "We have common needs, values and goals". If in the Eurozone, I am taxed based on WHERE I live and work, not where I am from. If I am French and I live and work in Portugal, I pay my taxes in Portugal.

In the US, we cooperate with NO ONE. If I live in Portugal, My retirement check must FIRST go into a US Bank account so the US government can track me. I must pay Taxes to the US, even though I am living in Portugal and using Portuguese services. This is typical of the US and part of the "going it our way" thinking pattern. Not the "we are all together" way of thinking.

Medical care

I am a registered Nurse. I will tell you up front that the American Medical system is powered by greed and profits to drug manufacturers,politicians and most importantly, insurance companies. If I had purchased my retirement medical insurance for $925 per month and moved to Europe, it would be useless. This is because the US PLAYS WELL WITH NO ONE. American insurance companies 1) will not pay out claims in Europe. 2) would argue over prices with European providers in an attempt to avoid payment. My insurance would be unsuable here. As a result, Europe has no interest in us as medical residents. Why should they? The US will not care for Euro zone residents in America, why should they give free care to us?

Guns

I am a gun owner. Before I was a RN I was a law clerk. I carried a gun. Let us be honest. In most places and times, Americans don't need to carry a gun. In a few locations and professions they do. Some Amaericans LIKE to carry a gun. Like is not need.

I have seen none of the chaos, anger and assinine behavior I saw daily in America, while here in Portugal. If you want to carry a gun, need to carry a gun, like insurance, go your own way. You wont do it in Europe. They have no comprehension of the American gun mentality. it doesn't fit in here. You might as well ask "can I wear my pants on my head"?
No ones going to assault you. There are no drive-bys. It's nice, it's safe and it's friendly.

mariaorr
  1/23/2018 11:12 EST

It is definitely friendly, but far from safe unfortunately.

GoingCrazyGoing
  1/23/2018 11:37 EST

That about sums it up I'd say.
Europe is light years ahead of the US in many ways; healthcare, education, jobs, culturally, historically.
The US had it's beginnings in breaking away from the England and that attitude carries on today.
The US talks about freedom this, freedom that, but it's is one of the LESS FREE countires, with the most corrupt government full of thieves and robbers.
The CIA plots to 'interfere' with other countires goverments, put in 'OUR' guy as head. Yet we talk about other dishonest countires like we are pure as clean snow ! Such hypocrates.
We reap what we sew.
NO wonder Americans are headed overseas - for a better life.

mariaorr
  1/23/2018 11:43 EST

It is sad to read about the anti American sentiment on the blog;
I have lived in most continents in my life; currently I live in Canada. Yes the USA has many faults; but lets remember that it is not good to generalize; there are many good things about the US - it is the land of opportunity; people go there for a better life from all over the world;
What exactly does Europe offer?
jobs ? what jobs? good paying jobs? hardly none;

sepharad
  1/23/2018 12:16 EST

It is fascinatig to me, how whe someoes opinion varys from anothers, they are "Anti-American". Even more interesting when it is facts.

Again, as a Registered Nurse and a citizen of the United States for 59 years here are the facts:

Last year 630,000 Americans filed Bankruptcy due to medical bills.

There were 3.25 gun deaths per thousand in the United states last year. There was 0.4 gun deaths per thousand in Portugal.

My monthly medication bill was $1400 per month in the US. It was $70 yesterday at the Silva Pharmacy in Lagos.

As a Portuguese citizen, my medical care will be paid for in any Eurozone country where I travel. As an American citizen, my medical insurance will not be honored anywhere in the world, because American insurers refuse to pay.

The 2018 international crime index rates the US as in 35th place, Portugal in the 89th place. (Number one was Venezuela)

Are those facts or Anti-Americanism?

Portugal is not perfect, neither is the US. The original post was a question about the NEED to CARRY a firearm and availability of Free medical care. It was not a political question, but a practical one.

Simply put. Statistically you are MORE than twice as likely to be the victim of crime in the US. You will find it difficult if not impossible to carry a concealed firearm as a US citizen, in Portugal. As a US citizen you will not be able to join the Portuguese medical system except through private EUROPEAN or travelers insurance.

As Joe Friday used to say on the TV show Dragnet, "just the facts maam".

mariaorr
  1/23/2018 12:51 EST

Hopefully you didn't just go to Portugal for the almost free medical, You cannot compare the US with the tiny little country like Portugal that have nothing to offer. Clearly you have never worked in Portugal, clearly you are not Portugues, and the reason you love it there is because you came from the US with dollars in your pockets. Ask a Portuguese citizen if he loves making minimum wage of 600,00 euros a month. Have you been to check the line ups at the US embassy in Lisbon,? people want to get out to immigrate to make a better living; so yes the US has a ton of faults, as does Canada too; but slamming the US and pretending its all wonderful in Portugal, in my view is not right; Portugal has lots of problems, way more than the US, maybe not as many guns. And you cannot compare the violence because the US has 300, 00 million people and Portugal 10 million. If Portugal had 300, 000 million your medication wouldn't cost 70 euros.

GoingCrazyGoing
  1/23/2018 13:30 EST

WHAT IS BEING AN EXPAT ALL ABOUT ?
Isn't it a desire to live somewhere else than where you were born or grew up ?
The EXPAT business is huge, especially Americans fed up with the way the dirty US has become.
Lots of people just sit and complain and are powerless to do anything, where as SOME (EXPATS) vote with their feet and go to where their ideals more closely match their location.
IF you live in a country where your houses are being bombed on a daily basis, sure it's time to go somewhere else, maybe the US (where they are not really wanted, spit on and treated like garbage). Yes the US has a history of immigrants coming in.
In these times it's the reverse, Americans are leaving for a BETTER LIFE. WHO can blame them.
I'd bet many educated immigrants would prefer places like Germany, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Canada over the US. Real countries with REAL healthcare, a REAL honest government, educated people who care about others, real job training and REAL jobs. COSMOPOLITAIN countries, not 100 years behind the time like the US.
The US is becoming more like ROME or Nazi Germany every day, is on it's way down. AN EMBARRASSEMENT to the world.

mariaorr
  1/23/2018 13:47 EST

Lady, I am not sure why you are so angry; after all you lived in the US all your life, and obviously made enough money to go and retire somewhere else. If you were a nurse in Portugal you would be living with a pension of approx. 900 euros a month.
Portugal is corrupt from the heavens to the earth - the health care is almost free because the EU is subsidizing them, if it wasn't for the EU god help them.
Portugal has amazing weather, good food, good wines, people are nice, relatively safe, although I have been robbed at knife point in Lisbon, but other than that its a country with lots of corruption, lots of crime, of which most of it is not ever published, they want to make sure the foreigners are happy and are not aware of the crime; Nothing perfect about Portugal.

GoingCrazyGoing
  1/23/2018 14:13 EST

I think the MAIN POINT is that PORTUGAL is NOT the US

That is an improvement any way you look at it.

mariaorr
  1/23/2018 14:16 EST

No you cannot compare; the US has 300, 000 million people and Portugal has 10, million.
The US is still the powerhouse of the world, even if you cant stand it.

mariaorr
  1/23/2018 14:19 EST

I lived in San Fran for years, and loved it, but I couldn't stay, I didn't have my green card, and they wouldn't give it to me unfortunately. But its still the best place in the world to live and that's why there are people from all over the world wanting to stay there.

ESprotte59
  1/23/2018 14:26 EST

Re: Drug Prices.

The US pays more per person than the rest of the industrialized world. It has NOTHING to do with the size of the country. EU countries regulate prices, the US does not.

Source: D. O. Sarnak, D. Squires, G. Kuzmak, and S. Bishop, Paying for Prescription Drugs Around the World: Why Is the U.S. an Outlier? The Commonwealth Fund, October 2017.

MidMO
  1/23/2018 14:34 EST

Oh, Lordy! We have some folks that have gotten their shorts in a bind! Granted, catharsis can be therapeutic, but stop and listen to what you have been saying. It is largely packed with gross overgeneralizations. The american population is diverse. While you might find specific a instance to support your assertions, look around and you’ll find 20 more that don’t. We have challenges in all areas mentioned. Challenges that are made much greater by the current dysfunctional leadership. But “less free”? Is there some universal freedom index that I’ve overlooked? It is “less safe”? Like anywhere, it depends on where are standing. Guns? Yes, a complex issue. I grew up in rural america as part of the hunting culture. We hunted and ate what we harvested. Furthermore, I’m a competitive shooter. When back in the states I will participate in matches, as many as possible. I have many friends that are not gun owners and don’t want to be. We are both fine with it. Living in Portugal, I’ve come to understand and respect that the Portuguese are different in some ways from the Spanish. The same is true about “the states”. We have a big house with many rooms. However, in reality, we have more in common with each other, than we have differences.

MidMO
  1/23/2018 14:34 EST

Oh, Lordy! We have some folks that have gotten their shorts in a bind! Granted, catharsis can be therapeutic, but stop and listen to what you have been saying. It is largely packed with gross overgeneralizations. The american population is diverse. While you might find specific a instance to support your assertions, look around and you’ll find 20 more that don’t. We have challenges in all areas mentioned. Challenges that are made much greater by the current dysfunctional leadership. But “less free”? Is there some universal freedom index that I’ve overlooked? It is “less safe”? Like anywhere, it depends on where are standing. Guns? Yes, a complex issue. I grew up in rural america as part of the hunting culture. We hunted and ate what we harvested. Furthermore, I’m a competitive shooter. When back in the states I will participate in matches, as many as possible. I have many friends that are not gun owners and don’t want to be. We are both fine with it. Living in Portugal, I’ve come to understand and respect that the Portuguese are different in some ways from the Spanish. The same is true about “the states”. We have a big house with many rooms. However, in reality, we have more in common with each other, than we have differences.

mariaorr
  1/23/2018 14:35 EST

no one could afford to pay medication for a population of 300, 000 million people; Of course it has to do with the population.
The US is not a socialist country, it is a capitalist system over there.

majgroves
  1/23/2018 16:31 EST

BTW, the U.S. population is now 327 million. Not 300,000 million. And health care cost comparison is calculated per person - not the total. So, it does not matter what the population is for comparison figures.

dfh4jesus
  1/23/2018 16:35 EST

Amen GoingCrazy! Glad to read that i am not the only one who sees this.

sepharad
  1/23/2018 16:53 EST

Well,

First off, I am not a lady.
I'm not angry, I am making an economic and physical decision.
Portugal was a retirement choice based on World, US and European fiscal, services and safety reports gathered over a 3 year period.
If you look again at the Gun death numbers you will see they are based on a PER THOUSAND statistical basis. Not a population basis. That is because we kill a load of people with guns in america. Not because we have a higher population. If that were the case, China and India would be out gunning us.
Drug prices in the US is possibly the single largest form of corruption in the US. I paid $47 for the exact same medication, same package everything as in the US, where it is $1200.
Harvoni, a hepatitis drug, costs $82,000 for a 90 day dose in the US. Thats not a typo. It is $1000 for the same treatment in Europe. I can BUY services at full retail here for a fraction of what I can in the US.
I am sorry you were robbed at knife point. Thats terrible and my heart goes out to you. Nonetheless, the statistics are clear. Gun crime and criminal activity in general are lower in EVERY country in Western Europe. Sweden is the closest to the US for general crime, followed by France.
Medical care is superior in France to Portugal. Cost of living is Lower in Ecuador or the Phillipines. These are all factors one considers when considering life overseas. Just as you chose to live in San Fransisco.
I have access to citizenship in Portugal. The people are pleasant, cost of living is lower, weather is exceptional. It is part of Europe so travel in various countries is readily available.
Walking around with my Walther PP in my waistband isn't necessary. I don't lie in bed at night, as I did in New Mexico, listening to gunshots.
If I go to a Dr.s office, even if I must pay cash, I wont be Bankrupted. Literally Bankrupted.
I chose to come here for a change of lifestyle and to live in an economically viable manner. The money I bring to Portugal, is welcomed by the government as a boost to the economy. I cannot eliminate crime in portugal. I cannot create an upsurge in economic activity.
I can live among decent, pleasant, inviting people, within my means and with reasonably available services. I am happy and appreciative to be here. My friends envy me my lifestyle.
It's not paradise. I can't afford paradise, if there is such a place. Perhaps you cannot understand why I choose to be here, while you wish you were in the US. I would welcome you to the US. I believe people should be able to move freely and live where they wish.
I only know that my situation here is pleasant, relatively safe, culturally enriching and ecomonically viable...for me.

Sixyears
  1/23/2018 17:11 EST

sepharad
Very well said. Those are the reasons we will be moving there. No place is perfect you are right. But when you are about to retire you search for a better place, safer, slower and more economical. After a few a few years of research we believe Portugal is that place for us.

GoingCrazyGoing
  1/23/2018 17:13 EST

SEPHARAD
AGREE 100%
It reminds me of what we used to say about Russians when we were kids - We used to call them "Brainwashed"
ISN'T it exactly TRUE these days that MANY Americans are "BRAINWASHED" - or they just don't have the mental capacity to tell right from wrong.
It's NOT a political difference.
MANY Americans have ZERO options to move anywhere, they get 500 a month social security, they are stuck.
Those of us who were born with other nationalities or have a better financial situation HAVE OPTIONS and are acting on them.
Even some immigrants are voluntarily running home to get out of the US. Waiting for the BIG crash.

sepharad
  1/23/2018 17:19 EST

So just out of interest, there are several freedom indices. Some are purely economic, some purely civil liberties. I just took a moment to look at the CATO institute, a conservative American think tanks index. In 2016 they ranked the U.K. As 6th, Portugal as 19th and the US as 23rd.. This is a general rating based on all catagories. Economically, Portugal rates very low on freedom. Corruption, lack of fluidity, conservatism and social factors keep Portugal economically backward. I am fortunate that I am not having to struggle to make a living here.

The direction the US is going currently, is not encouraging. I am VERY fortunate to have a retirement pension plan. That Is because I started out with my employer at about 23 years of age. There NO LONGER exists a retirment plan for people at my work place. Medical benefits have gone from 95% coverage down to 80%. I have a police and fire pension benefit that is no longer given to the new officers. Social Security retirement age has gone up from 65 to 70.

Things are grim there for the millenials. My escape to Portugal is not only unusual for an American, it is exceptional. Most Americans can't afford it here. They tend to go to places like Mexico and previously to Costa Rica.

Estimates vary, but as many as 8 million non-military Americans live abroad.

Forbes lists Portugal as number #7, Live and invest overseas puts it as #1.

sepharad
  1/23/2018 17:30 EST

You are right about the Brainwash element. I love America. But I have to be practical. I cant afford to retire there comfortably. I had to face daily decisions with patients that are based solely on what an insurer pays for.

Understand this, when your treatment team meets to discuss your treatment plan in the hospital, there is a specialist who sits in the meeting and tells the team WHAT THE INSURANCE COMPANY will pay for. Not what medication, treatment or surgery the Dr. thinks you need. The Drs. Are not in control in America. I have had to sit and ghold the hand of a crying patient who has been told they are going to die, because they don't "meet the criteria" for a treatment or drug.

Every year my taxes go up EVEN WHEN THE HOME VALUE GOES DOWN. I had to explain to a portuguese couple this week, why all those homes in Las Vegas were empty, so the "Turn a house" people on TV can buy em cheap. Because the owners were evicted or their mortgage was upside down.

I am seeing real economic disruption here in Portugal, In Lagos and Lisbon, values have gone up while salaries have not. For the locals it is chaos. I saw a sign asking people to vote for a 600 euro minimum wage. How they afford an apartment i don't know.

But they are kind, generous, friendly and have made me welcome in their country and homes. So far, it has been the single smartest move I have ever made in my life.

mariaorr
  1/24/2018 07:25 EST

I agree that is terrible that there is no medical insurance for the poor, but America is not the only place,
Southern Africa too is the same. If you are poor you have no rights to anything; sad but true. It is the one thing about the States that I do not like, it benefits only the wealthiest of the population.

zzkevin
  1/24/2018 15:24 EST

I respectfully advise you to keep your nine in your pants and target a country far away from Portugal.

mariaorr
  1/24/2018 15:56 EST

I don't own a gun, so not sure who you are referring too.

sepharad
  1/26/2018 09:10 EST

Maria,

The medical situation in the US has continued to worsen. It is not the poor, but the middle and upper middle class who are under financial pressure. The age at which a person who wishes to retire, and is elligible for public medical care Is still 65 years, but the age you may receive Social Security has been raised to 70. They don't want people to retire and receive benefits. Basically, work until you die.

I am not poor. I am single and earned $90,000 last year. If i retired, my pension would have paid me about $2,700 after taxes. I would then spend $925 each month for medical care. This would have left me with $1770 each month, Rent of a 1 bedroom apartment is $1000+, the remaining $770 must pay for heat, water, garbage, food, clothing and the 20% of my medical costs that I must pay out of pocket.

Life as a retiree in America looks a lot like life in Portugal.

My great fortune is I am the rare American who has a pension plan. Only 4% of Americans have a defined benefits pension plan. Everyone else must work if they want medicine and a decent life.

By considering my options, and studying different countries, their cultures, people and lifestyles, if I am willing to move from home, leave my friends and family, I can have a life worth living in retirement.

After 5 years of planning and study. I have been fortunate to be able to move to your country. I can afford to pay for all my expenses, live safely and experience new people and a new world. It isn't perfect. But it IS better than the options I had at home.

Thank you for welcoming me to your home.

mariaorr
  1/26/2018 09:18 EST

Sweetie, I am happy that you have found a good place to live in Portugal; It is not my home, I was born and raised in Africa, and now live and work in Canada; I am of Portuguese decent, my parents were born in Lisbon; trust I love Portugal too, so much so that I too bought propriety north of Lisbon in a small fishing village for my retirement in a few years. It certainly is hard in the US if you don't have medical insurance; I have lots of friends in Florida that come up to Canada for eye exams and medication because it is cheaper here. I totally understand, I wasn't trying to under value your remarks at all, I know the US very well having lived there myself for a few years.

Sixyears
  1/26/2018 10:05 EST

Sepharad,
Very well said and exactly how we feel. We will bring positive things to our new country. And we hope that we will find that we are welcomed there. Our main concern is health care and cost of coverage. Other than that we are ready to make the leap.

ontheroadagain
  1/26/2018 12:25 EST

Hmm,

All this talk of love for a new country and cost of health care and cost of living in general....

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. But, unless I missed it, I haven't noticed anyone mention national debt.

What's going to happen in Portugal when the producer-class in more fiscally-disciplined EU nations, who are subsidizing more profligate nations, becomes economically exhausted? When the EU welfare-cheques and corporate subsidies start running out? Isn't fiscal prudence something that needs to be cultivated for years before it bears fruit? If it requires years of cultivation, what happens when it is neglected for years?

What will happen to health-care in Portugal, public and 'private', when foreigners' 'generosity' dries up? (consider that foreigners' national debt trajectory is similar in most if not all cases i.e. it is increasing not decreasing)

In a sense, we are talking zombie-generosity. What if the central banks' license to print money is losing its perceived legitimacy and confidence of the producer class, by the day?

No-one likes to talk about the debt. I understand that. But isn't it necessary to address this point before extolling the virtues of a suitable retirement destination?

I ask myself these questions and others like them, frequently, as I myself am nearing the age of retirement. Also, I'm not claiming to know it all so if I'm wrong in anything I say please feel free to chime in... I'm happy to be schooled by anyone who can fill in any gaps in my knowledge or give me an alternate point of view.

mariaorr
  1/26/2018 12:58 EST

That was my first reaction; but a few people on the forum nearly bit my head off. God forbid that the EU disintegrates ; Portugal will be heavily in debt.

sepharad
  1/27/2018 07:07 EST

Things have to be paid for, for sure. We see what happens when they are not. The single payer system, common in the EU, runs at about 50% of the cost of what we do in the US. We spend more per capita on medical care than any other industrialized.

50% of EVERY dollar spent in the US on medical care, is skimmed off the top and paid out in expenses related to the private health insurance industry. That is every pill, every blanket, every piece of equipment, every man-hour of labor costs DOUBLE, so it may be skimmed for the insurance industry and its support network and structures.

So your fist savings here, is a single payer system. Not perfect, but 50% less, right off the top.

As to paying off debt, it is worrisome. I look at Greece and would not choose to retire there. But then I see the January 27th report that Ricardo Mourinho Felix, the Portuguese secretary of state finance, announced an 800 million euro IMF payment, which eliminated the highest interest portion of Portugals 4.5 billion debt, leaving the balance at a lower interest rate, I feel comforted.

It aint perfect folks. All I am saying is, it's a more reasonably structured system to retire in, than the US. Instead of being unable to retire on my pension in the US, I AM ABLE, to retire comfortably here. That is, in my case at least, what being an Expat is about.

I appreciate Portugal's making this possible for me, while the US did not do so for Maria, for which I am sorry. If the situation here changes, or if I simply desire to experience a new culture, I can move yet again, somewhere else. The freedom of being an expat.

GoingCrazyGoing
  1/27/2018 18:27 EST

sepharad
You like Portugal, I wonder why you didn't consider Brasil ?
Brasil real estate is very cheap. I can rent there and my total expenses are about US $600 a month. You'd be hard pressed to find an apto to rent in Portugal for that.
NEGS are NO jobs, but if you're retired that's not a problem.
Crime in the big cities and along the coast. In the interior it looks a lot like the US; small houses, family atmosphere, less crime.
Can't speak for the immigration process without a BR spouse but would think if you can show a decent retirement, you're in.
Brasil varied widely from south to north > snow in the extreme south, equator weather in the north.
Just a thought.

mariaorr
  1/29/2018 08:24 EST

I love Brazil, it is amazing; the people are so kind and the weather is fantastic. I didn't purchase in Brazil because of the crime.

mariaorr
  1/29/2018 08:24 EST

I love Brazil, it is amazing; the people are so kind and the weather is fantastic. I didn't purchase in Brazil because of the crime.

GoingCrazyGoing
  1/30/2018 17:49 EST

Understand totally
I've been off the beaten path all over BR and there are actually place where it's pretty safe, usually in the interior, even up north had some towns settled by the Dutch, blue eyes and blond hair.
I would also bet places like Nova Petropolis - Gramado - Garibaldi - Feliz -RS, Camboriu, Nova Trento SC , Interior of SP like Campinas, etc.

GoingCrazyGoing
  1/30/2018 17:57 EST

Another thought ...
What about the Canaries or the Azores ?
Have a friend who grew in the Azores but left for the US, married a Brasilian and they live here now.
They visited relatives in Sao Paulo and she asked if all the houses had bars on the windows ?
DIDN'T like that at all.
She went back to the Azores for a visit and NO BARS anywhere. That was all they needed to decide to return there.
Don't know much about cost of living there.

ontheroadagain
  2/3/2018 09:02 EST

Hi sepharad,

I'm going to assume your definition of single-pay health care is consistent with this explanation. If you have a different working definition then please clarify.

https://www.healthcare-now.org/what-is-single-payer/

Assuming 'guaranteed access to basic health care for residents' is what we are talking about, my view is as follows.

1. Nothing in life is guaranteed if we're talking about voluntary interaction, as opposed to violation of freedom of association. The very fact that someone can infer health care is or can be guaranteed, indicates to me he has become at least somewhat accustomed to having his bad decisions subsidized through the State i.e. confiscation of private property. What I'm referring to here is commonly(although clearly not commonly enough) known as the myth of the free lunch.

2. It seems to me that any time a single-payer health care system is advocated, it is assumed that provision of health care is a human right. This - what I'm going to say here - may be shocking to many Europeans, in general, but the fact is we've been lied to.... health care is *not* a human right. Health care is a *service*. You have a right to *seek* health care - *as a service* - and engage with anyone offering it, on a *voluntary basis only*. You have no right to confiscate the wealth of anyone else in order to pay for it. Same goes for any other good or service. The right you have is to *pursue* these goods & services... not to get others to subsidize or pay for it outright. This was the main reason for the American Revolution itself.... 'taxation without representation'. And the massive increase in standard of living which resulted from a clean break from the top-down control over individuals' private property is why the American people's limits on a centrally-planned economy had to be dismantled by State-protected interests. This is what has been happening in the USA over the last 100 years. The freedom and responsibility individuals had to mitigate market risk has been all but removed completely.

In short, the role of the consumer as risk-bearer/mitigator has been successfully undermined by State-protected interests, to the point where we are today in the West. We now have grown adults behaving like spoiled children... who are told it is not for them to bear/mitigate risk when engaging in trade with their fellow citizens. Instead, the State can do a far better job of consumer-protection than anyone else. And not only that but not doing so would be extremely dangerous for society. The result of this demonizing of free markets through persistent portrayal of the crony-class as 'private enterprise', is the capitulation to increasing State ownership and control(direct or indirect) of all the means of production. The entitlement-mentality that grips virtually all modern Western democracies is baked into the cake, because anyone who works for a living expects to get at least what he put into it and those who don't are promised free or subsidized living by virtue of the magicians down at the central bank who can magically conjure up money out of thin air and make you feel good about believing this scam at the same time.

This undermining of individual responsibility leads to every variant of Collectivism(coercive collectivism) which resulted in hundreds of millions of deaths in the 20th century. There is no exception, that I'm aware of on historical record, that does not testify to this fact.

When people criticize the system in the USA, they seldom see the bigger picture, which is that America is not the land of the free anymore. It's been brought down by those of the same ilk who the American colonies seceded from in 1776.

So, of course, if you destroy the incentives to produce and to pay attention to who to trade/not to trade with, you should expect to see living standards declining proportionately. The fact that it hasn't completely collapsed already is down to tricks and props.

Academic apologists for the State, calling themselves economists, who either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge basic economic principles and instead bamboozle the unsuspecting citizen with economic-sounding jargon are used to justify the violation property rights as a means of self-preservation.. The US economy has been a zombie economy for some time, thanks in no small part to the petro-dollar arrangement from the 70s, and the legalised counterfeiting operation called the Federal Reserve, which has funded illegal wars to prevent anyone breaking away from the USD as the world's reserve currency.

ontheroadagain
  2/3/2018 10:24 EST

Just to add... I think there is something to be optimistic about in all this, and that is the real potential for free market money to re-appear but this time, all over the world... simultaneously.

This - if citizens are not fear-mongered out of recognizing it as the boon to humanity that it is - would indeed be a first.

Very promising developments are going on, which have lowered the artificial barriers to entry and could very well unseat entrenched monopolized/cartelized industries e.g. banking and finance.

GoingCrazyGoing
  2/3/2018 13:31 EST

Aren't these RIGHT WING LUNATICS entertaining !
BEST reason to move to PORTUGAL or any other country for that matter, is exposed right there, to get away from these kinds of shall I say 'people'.
US Expats on the streets of Portugal will quickly cross the street to AVOID them !

Sixyears
  2/3/2018 13:44 EST

Well that is a terrible thing to say. So when we move there we can exspect people to see us and cross the street? So all Americans are crazy, and they should be avoided at all cost? I do not share the views of this person. I am an individual as is everyone. I am offended by your statement. Generalizations like this are for morons. If the label fits...wear it.

Sixyears
  2/3/2018 13:44 EST

Well that is a terrible thing to say. So when we move there we can exspect people to see us and cross the street? So all Americans are crazy, and they should be avoided at all cost? I do not share the views of this person. I am an individual as is everyone. I am offended by your statement. Generalizations like this are for morons. If the label fits...wear it.

paulafelice
  2/3/2018 15:53 EST

I've had many of those same thoughts myself. I don't recognize America and I'm wondering when it's time to get out. Anyone else had these leaning?

dfh4jesus
  2/3/2018 21:56 EST

Yes!!!

Filoso
  2/4/2018 17:42 EST

America is slipping away faster than even I suspected. Now we have the future dictator declaring himself above the law. Scary stuff. All who oppose him and the GOP (quasi Nazi party) will soon be persecuted to an extent we cannot foresee at this time. I am definitely making plans as I am now considered an enemy of the state.

ontheroadagain
  2/4/2018 21:03 EST

It's true, the USA is slipping away.... but where are you going to run to?

The USA still - at least in theory - is home to two of the strongest tenants of a free society which make it the most resistant to tyranny..... freedom of speech and the right to self-defense i.e. the second amendment.

These are being undermined ferociously, on several fronts. Universities, once bastions of free speech are today increasingly beset with safe-spaces.... zones where free speech is forbidden. And the second amendment has from day one been under attack because it is the last defense against tyrannical government.

When Jefferson said, "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance," he wasn't referring to threats to liberty from abroad so much as threats to liberty from US citizens' own government. Liberty means nothing if not the freedom to fail i.e. the absence of legitimized initiation of the use of force to subsidize your bad decisions in life.

What has happened is that the USA citizen fell asleep at the wheel. And the hull is now hitting the reef and taking water. Turns out Jefferson was right, free markets are not so much about something individuals *have* but something individuals *do*. When next you hear people bemoaning a system that is failing them, bear this in mind.... the system is only whatever a group of individuals agree to do. This responsibility is ongoing. And the temptation to contract it out will surely come. And you have to say no, otherwise you can't live in a free and prosperous society. Liberty and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. The instant you undermine one side, you ipso facto undermine the other. Beware of the gospel of the (responsibility-)free lunch.

USA - once a shining beacon of hope for the rest of the world - succeeded in liberating oppressed foreigners without any need for waging illegal wars, but rather through merely being an example, at home, of what could be achieved economically if you simply protect individuals' right to own property and to choose who they associate with. the 19th century was largely peaceful because these core civilizational values were honored to a far greater extent than what followed in the 20th century. It's no coincidence that the 20th century was the century of war, paid for by the newly formed central bank granted monopoly power over the money supply.

So that is what did more to bring prosperity to the rest of the world... setting an example at home. That is the original American foreign policy.

The founders and earlier presidents warned of going in search of monsters to destroy abroad. They encouraged friendly relations with all nations. Notice that Trump's foreign policy only differed from Hillary's in word. His campaign promises have so far been reneged upon. It could be argued that WW3 might already have begun had Hillary been voted in. Personally I think Hillary - being of the same ilk as Henry Kissinger, Saul Alinsky and Margeret Sanger -would undoubtedly have been far more aggressive in pursuit of increased centralized control, the goal of the CFR of which she is a devotee. But the truth is that even if Trump is still not an insider and party to the deep state, he is nevertheless still oblivious to the original American values when it comes to 2 main areas: foreign policy and fundamental economics. He may look like an angel next to Hillary Clinton but to anyone who has been paying attention, that is not saying much.

Essentially the US government no longer represents the American people. It's gone rogue. Regardless of which political party you prefer. When you feel so much pressure to vote for the lesser of two evils at national elections, it should be obvious the tail is wagging the dog.

That is the time to recall what it means to secede. If Left and Right would only wake up to what this means for them there'd be no more need to flee a bad leader or sacrifice your own values for the sake of remaining a part of a large 'homogenous' yet constantly bickering, unharmonious whole. And for the moment all of this is available for anyone to read about. There is very little excuse for failing to read some history and economics for oneself.

Secession simply says you should be legally permitted to live under rules you find acceptable, and you should have no legal right to force other people to live under your rules.

So, for example, if the Left hate Trump so much.... they should do as Calexiters have been threatening to do and form their own government which would be far more representative of the majority of the people. No need to move abroad.... as long as you can begin to reassert some control over your well-dressed, well-spoken thugs in Washington when it comes to the right to secede. The idea of having 52 states was along the lines of having 52 separate experiments in government. That changed with the 14th amendment which reversed the origin and character of US citizenship by subordinating individual state rule to federal rule. But generally this experimentation in government - essentially a competition to see who could be the least bad in appointing rulers - was a huge step forward. Until it was interrupted.

The Europeans, if anything, still have somewhat of a check on their thugs thanks in no small part to the limiting effect - historically - which the US constitution and bill of rights had on US citizens' thugs. It serves as an example to the rest of the world. I shake my head in dismay when I hear Europeans criticising the decline of civilization in the USA... with no inkling of the wider effect of historical limits on State power in the US.

Personally, I maintain it's not necessary to repeat the cycle but when US resistance falls - IF it continues to fall - it's not just the USA that will feel it. The whole world will know in short order what life is like without the right to self-defense against one's own government or the right to free speech.

Secession - even just the legal right to secede - puts the power back into the hands of the people because, with the option to secede, you no longer have to vote for the lesser-of-two-evils. You go from the threat of being ruled over by a tiny majority of 51%(the smallest possible majority in a democracy) to making rules which are acceptable to nearly 100% of your fellow citizens. And the same goes for the other-side. It's a win-win situation. And nothing prevents you from trading across borders to the extent you both find it profitable to do so. Once you have done this i.e. seceded, you can simply keep going in the same vein until you are satisfied with the rules you live under.

majgroves
  2/4/2018 22:41 EST

OK guys. That's it!

I'm tired of getting these emails where people are using it as a bully pulpit to vent their angry musings at each other. We are moving from the U.S. to Europe because we want the adventure and experience not as angry citizens. And we will remain political active; but not on this forum.

So, now Portugal is out and the Sud de France is in. We're looking forward to some warm croissants and cafe in the mornings.

As of now we are unsubscribed from this forum.

paulafelice
  2/5/2018 04:37 EST

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree.

paulafelice
  2/5/2018 06:46 EST

I have a friend, age 92, who lived through Hitler's Germany. She, not Jewish, gave an up close eye's view of what is was like to live through those years. She wrote a book, The Hitler Years Through the Eyes of a Child. When she and I speak, she tells me that what is going on in this country now, is exactly how Hitler got started.

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