Saudi Arabia Forum - Possible for expats to have Saudi friends?
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culturejunkie
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From: Canada
11/23/2004 13:26
I am interested in moving to Saudi Arabia, not so much for the money, but because the culture and the people fascinate me. I don't want to go all the way there and then only have expat friends (though I will need them as well). What I want to know is if it is possible for an expat (particularly a single western female) to have friendships with Saudi women: to visit in their homes, and offer hospitality in my home.
I am aware of some of the cultural difference, and the differences in gender expectations. I am perfectly content to adapt to Saudi women's lifestyle, and to wear the abaya and head-covering, and act within their expectations of respectability (other than the fact that I am not married).
Thanks for your input!
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nualum
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From: Germany
11/24/2004 11:25
It has been some years since my wife and I lived in Saudi Arabia, so current information would be best. However, I would say that this is a highly improbable scenario. The first problem is getting into the country. Very, very few single women are recruited by companies operating in SA, and without being sponsored by an employer there is no way for you to move there for a while. You won't get a visa, and the airlines won't even take you there without a visa.
There may be some jobs you can obtain as a single woman--perhaps as a teacher, a nurse, or a physician. In many cases you would be expected to live in a single-sex compound where you are sheltered from interactions with men. On the other hand, in such circumstances, you might have an opportunity to meet Saudi women with whom you could interact.
The most likely way to meet Saudi women will probably not be available to you. We met Saudi women who lived on the Aramco compound, but generally this was in the context of Western and Saudi co-workers socializing. And there are few if any other settings where Saudis and Westerners live together and socialize together. Single Saudi women were not involved in these gatherings.
There were also some women's groups which made contact with Saudi women and Western women married to Saudis. How a single woman would find such groups is hard to say. Even less likely is that contacts would be extensive and sustained with some regularity.
Single Saudi women do not circulate freely, nor do they tend to socialize individually. Married women circulate mainly among family and friends. In either case, they would get from place to place in a car driven by a husband or brother. Your ability to travel about is circumscribed simply by the fact that you are single. You can't drive yourself nor can you just walk to the curb and flag down the first taxi you see. All of this is complicated by language. If you are not fluent in Arabic, all of your socialization possibilities will be limited. Certainly, there are lots of Saudi women who speak English, but finding a number of them with whom you can interact in groups will be very hard indeed.
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yorkie02
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From: United Kingdom
11/29/2004 19:43
As a female expat who lived and worked in Riyadh for four years (left in '02), I would say that it is possible to have Saudi friends, but social interaction with Saudis is limited due to the policy of segregating the sexes. Of course, as a female, it would be easier to develop a social relationship with a Saudi female. Many male Saudis want to develop friendships with female expats, but many times they intrepret friendship to mean something more. Just a simple hello/how are you can be interpreted by them that you want to build a relationship with them.
I got to know several Saudis through work, but I didn't socialize with them due to cultural restrictions. I used to go to a fitness center (of course, it was for women only) and met some Saudi females who used to work out there. Although I tended to develop friendships with fellow expats, I think it would have been possible to develop a social relationship with the Saudi females I met; however, I must admit I didn't find too many Saudi females who were open to developing relationships with Western female expats. I did come across a few female expats who did become friends with Saudi women. I think it depends on how liberal the Saudi female is - I would say that the ones who are more open-minded would be more willing to develop friendships with Westerners.
Perhaps due to what I said before about Saudi men, I found it easier to talk to Saudi males, but I had to limit my interaction with them or else they would get the wrong message.
For me, the best part of living in Saudi is the social nature of the place among the expat community. While I did live on hospital accomodation with other females, there were many social opportunities available to mingle with both male and female expatriates on coed compounds. I met my British husband there and am now living in the U.K. where I have had more difficulty developing a social life than I ever did in Saudi.
As far as wearing the head covering, I could count on one hand the number of times I put one on - only when I was being screamed at by the religious police (matawah). The abaya is a must for all women, but only Muslim women need to cover their hair. On that principle, I hardly ever carried a scarf with me unless I was going into certain parts of Riyadh. Other Westerners always carried a head scarf but would only put it on when being harassed about it by the matawah.
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relocate
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From: Saudi Arabia
11/30/2004 01:34
I am an Americn and currently reside in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia and have lived here for 10 years. My husband is Arabic and he grew up here. I would strongly advise you not to come to Saudi Arabia. I don't think you can get a visa as a single female unless you are hired from abroad and sign a contract in the medical field for instance. Then your employer will be your sponsor and you will live on a compound where only other single females live. It's a man's world here and after 10 years I still haven't adapted to the culture. Men and women don't mix. Women don't drive, don't go out alone, cover, and don't do any outside sports in public to name a few of the many restrictions. A married woman must have permission from her husband to leave the country and the laws favor men. I would also strongly urge you not to become involved with an Arabic man. I would recommend that you go to a more open Middle Eastern country like the U.A.E. if you want to experience the Middle East. I love Jordan because it's open and beautiful, but it's a poor country and the salaries are very low.
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yorkie02
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From: United Kingdom
11/30/2004 16:31
Perhaps it's different for expats, but my experience as a female expat in Riyadh was quite different from what is described by relocate. I did live on a hospital compound with other females, but I was free to come and go as I pleased and frequently went to other compounds where both men and women lived. There was a curfew - you had to be back in the compound by 1 A.M. I never adhered to that if I was out on a weekend. I only had trouble with one security guard about being late (it was 4 A.M. when I was returning to the compound), but in the end he let me in. I mixed with men and women, both Saudis and foreigners, in the hospital where I worked. We used to have after-work social functions, and many of the Saudis who worked with us used to attend them. As far as socializing went, I admit I didn't socialize much with Saudis. Most of my socializing was with male and female expats. As far as going out alone, most of the female nurses with whom I worked went out alone to go shopping. Of course, it's nicer to go with someone, but most of the time, I did my grocery shopping alone. As far as doing sports, I learned to scuba dive in Saudi and became certified in Jeddah, used to play Gaelic football with the Irish expats, and went to aerobics classes on different compounds and at a fitness center located across the highway from the hospital.
I would agree with the advice not to get involved with an Arabic man - I came across a few nurses who did so, and it just seemed that the cultural differences are too pronounced for the relationship to work. But then again, it depends on each individual. I have a South African friend of Indian descent who is married to a Syrian - she has made some adaptations to her life, but that has been her choice, and she has been more than happy to do so.
And I would recommend trying to go to the UAE first. However, I had several colleagues who left Riyadh to work in Dubai. They ended up returning to Riyadh because the hospital in Riyadh was better run than the one in Dubai. I suppose it all depends.
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relocate
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From: Saudi Arabia
12/2/2004 06:55
Our experiences are different, because I do not live in a compound and am married to an Arabic man whose family lives in Jeddah also. I live in an apartment in the city and am talking about daily life in the city, not in the compounds...a totally different situation. Rarely are local women seen alone in public. Usually women go out with their families or a group of female friends or relatives. Mixed social functions occur on compounds or behind closed doors, not in public. As for women and sports, these too are done on compounds, private women-only spas, or private beach resorts. You will never see a woman jogging, riding a bike, or jet skiing in public. You must either be rich (enough to affort membership to spas and resorts) or be an expat with a work contract (live on a western style compound) to have the luxury of enjoying a western style life in Jeddah. The only evidence of exercise I've seen in public is pregnant women walking briskly covered in their abiyas and head scarves.
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Sagittarian
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From: Saudi Arabia
12/3/2004 05:19
Well, Im a Saudi girl living in Riyadh, its the most difficult thing to be a girl in this country specially for me as a Saudi! things are so strict here, & as others mentioned earlier its a MAN country where women cant do lots of normal things like driving. When it comes to socializing its kindda hard here, u got to know the right people...if u do, belive me its going to be nice & full of parties, gatherings..Very few saudi women socialize with expats , its cause of the limitation of chances to meet , &maybe cultural diffrences..but i have lots of non-saudi friends from allover the world, many nationalities...for me i like to know & meet new different nationality, so if you're planning to come just make sure to have good connections with others, friendly wise i mean but be carefull guys & men here always will take you wrong or understand it as other thing, saudies & others. If you'll be working in a hospital you get to meet many people, some you'll feel that they are not friendly, some are nice....it happenes to me to...so it'll be new experience for you...best of luck dear, dont histate to email me if u want. Naj79@hotmail.com
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yorkie02
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From: United Kingdom
12/3/2004 12:23
I agree with relocate that it is quite a different experience to be an expatriate, especially a Western expatriate, living in Saudi compared to being a Saudi woman living there. Some of my Saudi female patients, the ones who could speak English, would confide to me about their experiences and the unjust ways they were treated by the men in their families. But I found the amount of freedom that a Saudi female had depended on how liberal the family was. Of course, I don't mean freedom the same way a woman is free in the West. I just found that some Saudi women had more freedom than others - it depended on the views of the family. For instance, some of the Saudi nursing students we had on the ward at the hospital covered their faces while others did not - one who did not said that her parents did not want her to cover her face, her parents were both doctors who encouraged her to pursue nursing (which is rather unusual because I found that Saudis would rather have their children be doctors than nurses).
Anyway, I agree that the experiences are different. I just wanted to point out that if you are looking to be an expatriate worker in the Kingdom the lifestyle is not that bad. You can manage to live as you do at home up to a point. Most of the expats I met out there had no regrets about making the decision to work out there (except perhaps when they were being harassed by matawah, the religious police) and ended up renewing their contracts for longer than they intended. I only planned to stay two years, if that, and ended up there for four years.
However, I know things have changed with the recent wave of events. Many of my expat friends are leaving or thinking about leaving within the next year.
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culturejunkie
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From: Canada
12/3/2004 15:00
Wow- thanks everyone for taking the time to reply to me, I appreciate it! Very kind of you.
I think for now I will keep up with my research, and wait. I don't see any open doors right now, I don't work in the medical profession which seems to be the common field for expats to work in. I am still interested though. Your accounts of living in Saudi matches up with the reading I've done. I know it would be difficult as a woman in Saudi, expat or not.
I still think that if I go, I will wear the head-covering, I don't mind it. I know that it is not expected of foreign women, but from my interactions with Arab friends I have learned that things like the head-covering are associated with being a Muslim, because good Muslim women are expected to be decent and modest. It is not expected of foreign, non-Muslim women because they (especially Western ones) are expected to act and dress immodestly. I don't mind going out of my way a bit to show that I am respectable, and moral.
I spent a bit of time in the Middle East, in Jordan, though I know the countries are very different, I did have some experience with Arab men, harassing me and such. But I learned to ignore it and not give room for them to think that I was open to it. I think it is very sad that Arab men seem to assume that all Western women are loose and immoral, and that all of us who go there have to fight that stereotype. I guess I shouldn't be surprised when we look at the media, movies and etc that come out of our culture!
So don't worry, for those of you who voiced concerns about me getting involved with a Saudi man. I have no plans to. I am sure there are nice ones, but I chose my faith, and have no intention of changing it, which I know would be expected of me if I did, not to mention if I had children.
Well thanks again everyone. I hope that someday I will at least be able to visit the country of Saudi Arabia and meet its people.
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