Hallo Dutchman!
Finally someone to share with that I can help! I hope you will read and understand what I will tell you. I am an American who fell in Love with a Dutchman back in 2006 it was through the internet unfortunately but...
What will save your marriage and this is important: What will save your marriage is this Love her even more now be closer to her It is scary for an American woman-I had no friends accept for the people at my childrens schoolPlease this is the MOST important!!! ~ Teach her how to speak Nederlands! YOURSELF -it's not easy but if you want to not get divorced this is the only way-and include her in your family group discussions-with your mom and dad,brothers and sisters help her also find a volunteer job for now she needs to get involved with your community-do not laugh at her when she tries to use that hard gutteral G Take her to do Dutch things to maduradam or the tulips near Amsterdam keep on romancing her you have to you must!!! I made the choice (bad choice) of flying back to the states in 2009 Dec 1st-I have never gotten over Holland I miss it-but-this man never included me in anything he hid me from his work collegues I never got to see the tulips nor really do anything special it all stopped as soon as we arrived there the romance died and he refused to help me learn Dutch-furthurmore let her be a LITTLE kleine beeje Amerikan once in a while dont pik on her for being american especially when you argue or disagree I wasnt his wife I was a dummy taking up space and he never broke off with his ex wife or his girlfriends, now almost 4 years later my heart is broken and I miss holland and I cannot return because I have now turned 50 years old-he left me crying at Schipol...Please dont do this to her? Please?

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Greetings. I am not usually on this particular forum but the topic, posted on the side of the general forums page, caught my eye. While I cannot offer you much advice at all, I do want to share what was uncomfortable for me when I was involved in a year-long relationship with a Dutch man six years ago, People were nice enough to me, but there was always a feeling of "Oh, You're American" And quite a number of times people proceeded to tell me what was wrong with my country. Now this was before President Obama came to office, so it was understandable that people did not like George Bush (I didn't either!). But it felt to me as if people I met held such animosity toward America and Americans, and were not able to separate the person from the country. I heard an awful lot about American imperialism and on and on, but no one seemed interested in learning about me as a person. My boyfriend did not stand up for me at all. One of the only people to fully accept me was his mom, who was thrilled to meet an American and thanked me for the Americans liberating Holland during WW2, as she put it. As time went on, and after a few trips to Holland and together to other parts of Europe, and his coming to the USA, I decided to end the relationship because I found that though we are both 'Westerners' and had a lot in common, there seemed to be a cultural gap of some sort that I just could not get past. I could not stand to hear any more about American politics and about America's wars, bla bla bla. I did remind him (and his friends) that the Netherlands has a history of colonizing other countries and is not so innocent either. I just felt on the defensive a lot of the time. That's not a feeling anyone should have to experience in a relationship at all. Wish I could help more.

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Hello,
Unfortunately your wife is right! Im an expat (non-american) here and been living in NL for about 3 years now. Just like what your wife said, i do feel this 'other' treatment once in a while (although i speak reasonable dutch-not perfect!). Of course theyare nice to me but what they do, will just about it, they will just be nice! They wont consider/put you in their circle of friends.
My husband friend who has an american girlfriend once told us, the dutch people are nice and friendly but they will not embrace you. Another friend of mine, been living here for about 10 years and speak good dutch. She still feels the same, the dutch will always have this 'wall' for the expats.

I think what will make a different is in which part of NL you live. If you live in Amsterdam, you dont really have a problem. You can always make friends with other expats. But if you live in a small town, you need more effort and patience to adjust it. It is more challenges in a small town because some dutch people will go on talking in dutch although they know one of the listeners dont speak dutch. This happens to my friend (a canadian). Actually surprisingly even some dutch people (my brother in law and his wife-both dutch) dont feel fit with people from other province of NL. They both have lived in Maastricht for 8 years with good job but in the end decided to move back to Leiden because of the people there. So can you imagine if even dutch people can feel like that, how about the expats who dont speak dutch ?

Personally I think you as her husband hold an important role to make her feel more comfortable living in NL. At least thats what I feel. I dont have many friends and my husband (a dutch) also not really a sociable person. But we both are so match, and he is the only reason I live here. The key is being understandble to each other and maybe in time when your wife feels down, you should be more understandable to her :)
I wish you both good luck and just think like this: if you both think you can not stand to live without each other, im very sure you both can get through this problem!

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I should add a couple of things: my wife and I are both not social animals, and have no desire to be. She has no need for a network of local friends, whether they're locals or other expats. She's actually quite content with being left alone.

What she _is_ bothered by is the feeling that she's being 'followed down the street' by neighbors, all of whom know everybody else, and know everybody else's business. She feels like she's being watched and discussed by other people. We do live in a village now (and happily), but she said the same thing about living in the center of Rotterdam, where we lived before, even though it's a much more anonymous environment. She still spied the Dutch social cohesion: small circles, inward-looking circles of people, shunning outsiders.

She also dreads going to the supermarket or any other public place, because as soon as someone notices she's an American, the remarks, uninvited opinions, and interrogations begin. She says she's even been talked about behind her back, by people who think she does not understand Dutch (which she does to quite a startling degree, she just doesn't speak it yet).

This was an eye-opener to me, because nothing of the sort happens with me around, even when we both speak English in a supermarket, and I speak it fluently enough to pass for non-Dutch. Apparently, they leave 'us' alone, but they jump on her as soon as they notice she's not Dutch. She experiences this as very oppressive and almost threatening. She feels judged and observed. From what I read on that blog post, speaking Dutch in any shape or form doesn't really make a difference: you will still betray the fact that you're not Dutch, inviting in more scrutiny.

Do note that she's not unhappy at all. She absolutely loves the land, the cleanliness, the organization, the skies, how everything 'just works', and even the weird Dutch disrespect for personal space (no orderly queues here, especially when entering public transport, etc.). She understands that an overcrowded society like the Netherlands needs to run like a well-oiled machine, and that people need to play a specific role to keep everything from exploding (or imploding). When I described the typical Dutch 'autonomous circles of families and friends' as cogs that are interlocking smoothly to keep everything up and running, she agrees. Not like robots, or automatons, but very aware of who needs to do what.

She has no desire to leave, but she does feel that almost entirely withdrawing from public life (of which she is not the biggest fan anyway) may be her only viable option. Which leaves me worrying over her never leaving the house alone, never going out alone, and only talking to people over the Internet. That doesn't feel right, although _I_ don't mind living that way myself. I guess I'm just 'worried vicariously'.

Maybe she's actually cracked it: as an expat in the Netherlands: you either need to be a contented and self-sufficient hermit (yes, he knits and gardens), or an absolute social butterfly. And no, Amsterdam is not an option.. ever. ;)

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10abuse

In reply to reply: Hi,
I felt the same way-even though not so profoundly but I did feel that somehow I was to blame for George Bush too like I put him office when I never voted for the either and I didn't like him either! Everyone would smile when I changed the subject and told them I came from and was born in Wisconsin where-Erik Heiden grew up the speedskating medalist-I'm a Dutchie at heart and I know we didnt fit in at least I didn't I'm short and dark everone is tall there! accept the turkish and oriental/Indians-those men were not our SOUL mates if they were they would have nevr let us part The family of the man I was stying with was angry at me because they had planned for gthey father to die I didnt know that-it wasn't my fault when I left the first time back they put a date on his euthanasia and he died and after that when I returned the second time with my children (mine) they were glad I was there till the end is family made me feel they wanted me to stay - but he was wanting already another woman to move in and I wasn't gone!
Dutchman-you need to stick with your choice of partner and stand up for her and love her and love is never easy for anyone~ the LOVE part IS difficult it's not supposed to be easy and its better to have differences it would be really a bland world if everyone did and said and wore the same things and we all had purple hair and wore the same clothes now wouldnt it? Love your American wife and keep her there

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Don't take my relative silence for disinterest. Your replies are all (well, mostly) very helpful. I share relevant parts of them with my wife. It's important that she knows this is not an uncommon experience.

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no offense taken there are so many lovely things for her to challenge herself with there...it's spring...kokenhoff Bloemen!!!! Lovely....take her to Bols in amsterdam and a walk through leiden there is a castle there and volendam so scenic have her picture taken with the sea man on the bench and there is a nice bar there with pictures of the Beattles...across the way is a nice restaurant well couple by way of the big boats....nice....

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Hi- maybe just agree with her a little...try to just make her happy in different ways now be creative start with a language center...I believe there is now been a tv channel for expats have her watch that get her involved even private people (I am one also) need to connect some how you hhave such a beautiful country...show her....

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here get her a paint box and some paints and a sketch book...you too...paint! your in Holland...beautiful Holland my god thats what I would b doing go to scenic dutch places get some folding chairs a cooler a pic nic basket paint the windmills its called PLEIN AIR painting...even if you dont know a thing about painting get a book or video how to or just throw it all in the car and do what children do-just start from scratch learn by doing it wont be perfect but very enjoyable use all mediums but water colour is best for learning go to an artist store google it have fun

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10abuse

I am reading this all with great interest! I am planning a permanent move to Amsterdam. I am older. I will be divorced. And, I am not very troubled. Think of it as if the tables were turned! America is really not the great melting pot it claims to be. I live in Connecticut. We are snobbish about our State. Maine is worse. My husband and I lived in the deep South and REALLY felt out of place. We never were allowed to forget that we are Yankees! I love the idea of taking art classes. I teach art and do museum work. I plan on doing volunteer work wherever possible. I hope your wife begins to grow her independence wings and find those hobbies or groups that interest her. I've lived in the UK and Italy and learned a tip from a very smart traveler. As a single person, frequent the same cafe and shop at the same cheese store and go to the same laundromat... slowly they will accept you. Use the "Cheers" mentality and become part of that social group that shares your interests. I think it is often harder for the married because we depend on our spouses for our friendship. Which only makes sense. However, by having separate interest you can bring more to your marriage table. I may not be invited to a Dutch birthday party but I will be ready just in case! Francesca

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Interesting topic, which actually made me register on this site.
Just to give you some background: I am Dutch as well, and my partner has the American nationality, even though she is originally Asian. She has lived most of her life in the US and Europe (France and UK) though. We both have children from our past relationships, who are all grown up and live by themselves already.
Apart from her US passport she holds permanent citizenship of France, and since a couple of years she spends a good part of her time here with me in the Netherlands, even though she still kept her house, and business in France. Because of her business she travels a lot within Europe as well as to the Far East, and we often do that together.
Having read the original post, I recognized some of this in our relationship too. In the beginning of our relationship I had a tendency to "defend" certain aspects of our society, and to criticize some aspects of the American society (especially politics and "commercialized religion", as I sometimes called it). She made clear to me that, no matter how much she started to love the Netherlands, this sometimes annoyed her.
We talked about this often and I came to realize that we Dutch like to see ourselves as internationally oriented people, but that we see and judge the World very much through our own orange glasses. Maybe this is also embedded in our culture and history. As a post stamp sized country we sometimes seem to feel the urge to justify ourselves in the big wide world, especially towards the big guys of this world. We tend to express a sort of self-righteousness.
I think this is because somewhere in the back of our mind we know that life in our country is not as perfect as we would like it to be. Our so-called open-mindedness is sometimes little more than a facade, and a good part of our countrymen and -women are not the global villagers that we like to pretend to be,
I often hear that for foreign visitors he Netherlands is a very easy country to visit, with the majority of people speaking English to some extent, but thanks to our relkationship and our talks, I also have come to realize that this does not automatically mean that it is an easy society to live in for someone from abroad.
Of course, there are many countries where people are much more reserved and closed to foreigners who live there, but our "open society" is only open to a certain extent.
Especially where it comes to really integrating in the society, like becoming part of social life. It is only in the recent year or so, that my partner has started to feel like part of my family, even though I can say nobody really excluded her (quite the contrary actually), but yes of course there is the language, there is the different cultural network and there is the totally different way she grew up and lived her life before she ended up in "my network". And vice-versa.
She from her side has done a lot to make herself feel at home here, and that helps too, but it is a slow process that will never be 100% complete. In the same way, I will also never feel completely part of her family in Asia, her past life in the States, or the social circle that she built up after having lived 10+ years in France.
In the meantime, she does have her friends here, she does have her own social life too, and feels perfectly comfortable to go anywhere with public transportation or talk with anyone around here.
We have been talking a lot about this and we both know that this process is a natural part of living together with each of us having our own backgrounds and history for 50 years or so, before we came to live together. And accepting this, seems to make things a lot easier for both of us. In our case I believe it has taken away the feeling of "exclusion", and instead it has made us both feel that this is somehow a journey together, making life only more interesting. Not only for her, for me too.
And admittedly, we are lucky. There is her place in France where we spend time, and there is the travel for her business quite often, together or she alone, so there is a lot of variation in our life. So by the time that any negative feelings or frustration might start to kick in, we almost always know that in a couple of weeks or months we will be somewhere else for a while.
The original poster used the word "otherized", and I believe that word is spot on. But I guess this is almost inevitable everywhere, if you are new to a society, and you never could be catching up completely because everyone brings his or her own background, history and perceptions along. You can just do whatever you can and are willing to do, to learn, immerse and build your own life in the new environment, and the new environment can be more or less open to make you feel part of it, but of course your past life is part of you both sides and I do not think that anyone should try to deny or ignore that part of oneself. When you accept and enjoy these differences, things get a lot easier, and it will make both feel more comfortable to keep learning new things about each other, not because it is so necessary to integrate but because it makes life of both, and the relationship, richer and more interesting, with all the ups and downs that come with it. But that's life, not only for expats but for everyone, don't you think so?

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10abuse

""""
Hello,
Unfortunately your wife is right! Im an expat (non-american) here and been living in NL for about 3 years now. Just like what your wife said, i do feel this 'other' treatment once in a while (although i speak reasonable dutch-not perfect!). Of course theyare nice to me but what they do, will just about it, they will just be nice! They wont consider/put you in their circle of friends.
My husband friend who has an american girlfriend once told us, the dutch people are nice and friendly but they will not embrace you. Another friend of mine, been living here for about 10 years and speak good dutch. She still feels the same, the dutch will always have this 'wall' for the expats.

I think what will make a different is in which part of NL you live. If you live in Amsterdam, you dont really have a problem. You can always make friends with other expats. But if you live in a small town, you need more effort and patience to adjust it. It is more challenges in a small town because some dutch people will go on talking in dutch although they know one of the listeners dont speak dutch. This happens to my friend (a canadian). Actually surprisingly even some dutch people (my brother in law and his wife-both dutch) dont feel fit with people from other province of NL. They both have lived in Maastricht for 8 years with good job but in the end decided to move back to Leiden because of the people there. So can you imagine if even dutch people can feel like that, how about the expats who dont speak dutch ?

Personally I think you as her husband hold an important role to make her feel more comfortable living in NL. At least thats what I feel. I dont have many friends and my husband (a dutch) also not really a sociable person. But we both are so match, and he is the only reason I live here. The key is being understandble to each other and maybe in time when your wife feels down, you should be more understandable to her :)
I wish you both good luck and just think like this: if you both think you can not stand to live without each other, im very sure you both can get through this problem!
""""

This is totally true.

When you move out of the Economic/Political powerzone, (Amsterdam / Gooi Area) you will find many poor uneducated people with small-town values. I would compare Maastricht with the South in the United States. Close to Maastricht, there are gigantic trailer parks, and the people have traditionally been very poor. The are involved with Drugs trafficking, and they speak better German than Dutch.

I would not bother making friends with the idiots living in Maastricht. Why would you?

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00abuse

Interesting post, been in NL no for around 9 months, and it's not the first time I have heard expats complain about this. Have to say I have never had this experience, most people are quite friendly with me and my wife, and dutch people at work really try to integrate me into conversations. We often go out with some dutch friends as well. And our dutch is no where near fluent. That said, we are South African (afrikaans to be precise).

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I recognize this side of the Netherlands. But.. it's not only with expats, my experience is that it also happens when you come for example from another town or city.
Francien Onderdijk
'Dutch Lesson'

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00abuse

First off no one ever said it was easy going to another country. BUT, your wife is in the Netherlands and should speak, although most Nederlanders speak English, it helps to know the language. I don't think that they have a problem with Americans. I think that they are curious and different about the way they approach anyone, not just Americans. She learn Dutch, what would happen if you could not be there and she needed to communicate? Americans are very outgoing and have many friends. Things are changing here in America too. She needs to find out what she loves most about the Netherlands, not worrying about what people are saying. Life is too short, be adventurous, by yourself if need be but don't be miserable. See the Netherlands for what she is a beautiful country. SHE CAN DO THAT!! Make it fun! Good luck wish I were there at the moment! Nederland is prachtig, en de mensen zijn erg gereserveerd, dat is waar, maar je zult niet in staat zijn om vrienden te maken als je zo worden bewaakt. Ja dat is zo. Relax, ontspan en hebben een mooie ervaring. Liefde voor alle !!!!

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