We have been researching property a bit in Odessa also. I will give a little advice from my wife who is from Odessa. Do not use a realator, nor reality company. Pick a area you like and are interested in living. Then, walk the street, at most interesctions their will be what looks like a wooden light or power poll. On these polls their will be little advertisments about apartments for sale by locals. My Lena says this is the best way to find a good deal. With a private owner, you wont pay fees for the purchase....and best of all you can for sure haggle the price down. You will need a local to help you with this search. When you open your mouth and English words come out of it, the price just jumped 25%. No BS!!!!

I have a Sister in law that lives in Odessa and I am sure she would help when she had free time.....you would enjoy her company. Lucy is very kind and beautiful. And now single lady.

You will need a trusted friend in ensure all documents are leagal and correct. You dont want to pay for a apartment say 50K, and have no actual property and your money is long gone.

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hey Nate: I saw a story today,"places people are moving to." South Jordan is on the list. NO one ever heard of a TRAX tram line in Utah, much less Portland. I just looked @ the rte. from Ogden south thru S.Jordan. and the demographics is to one's liking, not loaded up with 3rd world types etc. One negative, I saw snow on a few pics, "what the hell! " When we were in Warsaw many yrs ago, I did not leave until I went on the tram. It is a shame
we don't have this near me, as the train to downtown takes one thru a broken worn out city. I'd like Utah I'm sure.

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NA, I'll PM you with details.

One question comes to mind:
How does one transfer enough cash to buy such a big ticket item?

I've heard there is a form one can fill out that simply notifies the gov't of your intention to transfer funds in excess of 10k. Has any of you who have bought stuff here that exceeds that limit found that to be true.

Can I just open a dollar account in my name at some bank here and just do a bank to bank transfer? (can it be so simple??? or are there gotchas like a limit to amounts of withdrawals)

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This place needs escrow companies.

Do people hire an attorney to make sure all legalities (and the actual existence and ownership of said apartment) are verified and completed?

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When I was in Odessa in Dec/2015, I stopped by 2 Banks and asked how I could transfer money for a property purchase. The old USA Bank-Ukraine Bank fee was 3% of the dollar amount to transfer. Today the fee is now 7%, I was pissed about the larger fee so I walked away. I didn't get as much information as I should have.

As many on here can tell you, you better choose wisely on which banks you deal with in Ukraine. Over the last 3 years many have gone under, open today, closed tomorrow. Money gone!!! I have read some articles on Bloomburg that many more Banks will be forced to close in Ukraine over the next 2 years, due to insufficient funds to run a Bank. New Ukraine rules for Banking require banks to have a certain amount of funds to run a bank. Many don't have the money.

I was reading their are Banks working in Ukraine from France and Austria. One would think these Banks would be safer to deposit your funds into. The Austria Bank seemed to be the most safe and professional of all. I wrote the name down at home in my office I will try and find my notes after work today. Then I will post the name if I find it.

I would chat with KK, Summ, and Extreme, they have been in Ukraine longer....they might have some good info. Russophile is very familiar about this transfer of money issue. He spoke of some of his banks closeing that he normally used....he saw first hand about what I have been reading about. Russophile uses Western Union a lot I would do some reading on their web site about money transfers !!

Again, I cant stress enough about documents, this is important!!! Even our friends in Odessa preached to me and Lena over dinner about all the people that had bought Apartments in building that were not finished....pre-paid for an apartment....then the builder was gone. Money was stolen!!! So, for sure try to buy at a location that is finished!!!

KK lives up the road in Fontanka, next to the mall. You might want to take him out to lunch and pick his brain a bit on this issue. I think KK does some property purchases and home flipping, he could advise you somewhat I think.Good luck !!

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Hi there guys

Ya I do some building, buying and selling here in Odesa. I have been able to wire large amounts here without fee's.. I could tell you a ton but you should here it from the banker. Talk to Michael #9 Deribaskivaya, Pro Credit Bank..He runs that little branch. Pro Credit is a German bank. The US Embassy uses them. When purchasing Extreme's wife is right and not so right. Yes, you the buyer pay ALL the fees when buying, but the realtors have the deals right. And 90 percent of the deals posted in the neighborhoods are not deals, the realtors told us what our places are worth. I have one for sale now here in Fontanka and have been through it many times. Plus there is a lot of paperwork so I use an attorney, the same one who I actually drink wine with and bbq with. He watches my back..I was actually in California and he handled a deal entirely for $400 ! Cheap insurance if ya ask me.. So if you find something he lives on the top floor of another Pro Credit Bank building downtown ! And if you decide to go to that branch, see ANN but hands off !!! She's also one of the managers but she's mine !!! See Michael first hahahaha,, just kidding.. She and he have been doing business with myself for about 5-7 years now..All of these people speak perfect English..I can tell you all the building costs vs. buying already done and all the scams and answer all your questions if your serious and furthermore would love to do so and be able to assist a fellow American...I also have the right people to get things done..So that should help you out my friend. And it is definitely a buyers market right now....

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Compared to a lot of other cities it's size, Salt Lake is cleaner. There are a lot of third-world types, as you put it Michael, but very different from Oakland or L.A. You get outside of Salt Lake, and there are significantly less.

TRAX is nice...nicer than BART in the Bay Area. And they are extending it from Salt Lake down to Provo which is good.

I think you would like it in Utah, just because people of generally nicer and more conservative. Traditional family values. The old way the U.S. used to be.

And yes, there is snow....they did have the 20o2 Winter Olympics here remember... LOL!

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thanks for the info SMMOR: It seems so many cities in the u.s. have been shi**ed up in the last 15 yrs. This country is turning into a third world dump alright. I AM conservative and the site of Clinton turns our stomachs on the t.v. No one wants her, and why she does not just go away is beyond belief.

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Ken, do you happen to list your homes on a web site called Slando. My brother in law told me about this site. It lists homes for Sale in Ukraine for interested International buyers. Do you build homes 100% from the ground up, or buy the ones we spoke about 1/2 done, then finish them, or old ones and refurbish them?

With Americans looking to leave the states and retire abroad, you could have a nice little business going on there. Even close to your home in Fontanka, where there is so much new building going on in that side of Odessa! I am sure a American would feel much more comfortable dealing with you, than some of the local scammers looking to take American money.

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Hey Mr N...
Thanks for the tip about Slando, i'll look into it..About the building part, I've done all 3 things you wrote about..And selling, I was taught to rent em out unless ya need some cash to do another. I do have one for sale so I can keep George and I busy but the other stuff is rented...I try to grow my monthly income rather than have 100 grand in my pocket !! You know how dem dare girls are !! hahaha. Plus I can always find a reason to buy a nice car for 50 grand !! Interesting you said americans would rather deal with americans..I've learned not so much...They understand, that I understand the game, and so they seem to shy away and look for a better deal..As I probably would.. .But I really cant say that apply's 100 percent because I haven't sold much, just been a buyer and a keeper....That's my theory on the matter though...

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For those of you thinking about buying something I'd like to share my experience. First thing that came to mind was exactly what Extreme's wife said, buy direct from the sellers w/o a realtor..Well there wasn't a whole lot of inventory our there and then to find something at least interesting there was even less.So top that off with the not so interesting price and I pretty much wasted 6 months..So I did go to the realtor and looked at a minimum of 25 places !! Different scenarios across the board. E.G., building, adding on, remodeling and still the same issues..Problem I had was that I dislike 10 different tiny rooms in a house !! That's 60's-70's style for us but still the same style in Ukraine ! Plus the fact that when you sell, that's the first question you are asked ( How many rooms, second, how many Sortka and that's it that's how they determine the price ). So anyway the poor realtor was getting tired of showing me stuff and I said ok we'll just go to this last one.. The realtor even said beforehand your not going to like this one and I thought, good !! Some promise !! He could never wrap his melon around the thought that I wanted to remodel some ol crap !! Anyway, we went to this piece of property with like 4 old beat up house's. 1/2 finished ones and all were being sold as 1 property. I declined because of price, but then I asked the seller to show me whats behind this house while my wife and the realtor were chattering...My first impression, dam !! PERFECT !! I thought cool, 7 sortka with 10 producing fruit tree's I can build anything I want !! I told her without the other two, i'll give ya 60 grand for this land without any houses or buildings just draw a line from the back to the front ..So today, you can see the house I built on that land !! Cool story I think..Cool neighbors, walk to beach, 5 minutes, view of Odesa, and perfect views of sunsets.. Lucky man I was but the American came out in me, DETERMINATION !! I was determined to get the hell outta the flat so I could BBQ !!! And have a pool and on and on !! Moral of the story, the Soviet mentality is a hurdle for all of us in almost every scenario..I suggest patience and willingness to learn it so we can properly deal with it....Any help I can be feel free to ask.. Have a nice day boyz !!

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Hello Ken, the reason I felt dealing with a American might be better is "Trust", I just felt issues would be more on the up and up. I have herd a lot from friends and family about bad documents from sales of a Flat or Home. Paying a little more for the purchase price for "Trust" and not dealing with scammers for peace of mind might be worth it for me. So I think ))

After dealing with so many damn Ukraine taxi drivers trying to break a big one off in me, I am a little not trusting or gun shy. So many times I have gotten pissed in a place of business in Odessa for jacking up the price for nothing more than my English from being American. I have heard so many times when doing business...."but he is American, their all rich".....I am not rich, just a Mechanic that works Overtime 6 days a week to make ends meet. And rat hole a lot of money into my 401K for the future "jail break" as a DOD Federal employee.

Take care all.....

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Ya I agree 110 percent , BUT : were all in the game to make money and so my point is that the americans have definitely done their research ( such as you are ) to arrive at the highest price point they possibly can, or on the flip side buy for as little as possible..Having an attorney do the deals for you and then having them done at the Notary, your pretty much covered. AND THE ONLY OPTION I would choose. Furthermore, if you think your saving money not paying the Notary and just having your attorney do the deal or vice versa, your a bigger gambler than I, and i'll go as far as saying you are opening yourself up to be scammed !! I hope you all get this part !! The Notary's here are like the escrow companys in the usa and so there on the hook pretty much if everything isn't on the up and up. I've sat with my attorney 4+ hours a few times just to sign some papers and exchange the $$..They have to be thorough ! Buying a place downtown "could be good ".. But that's where 99 percent of the scammers are operating right ?? Also having a legit realtor involved isn't a bad idea either.. They get about 5 percent...Buying a place, just add 10 percent to the sale price and you'll be pretty much covered...As I said, the buyer pays all the expenses...

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Sorry guys, so many posts, but something else came to my melon that I think should be considered....All of us on this forum have determination ! And it's a helluva a lot more than the average bear ! I mean, look where we are ! We took a pretty big step to cross the pond so to speak and so i'd say the IQ of any man here is pretty good.. I don't think the fine folks from Ukraine are quite as savvy as any of us..Think about it, no offense to anyone, but it compares to Mexico. Just dealing with the everyday things here gives you a prime example ! I mean if I were a taxi driver, i'd be asking the tourists how long are you here and please call me and I will give you a fair rate everytime ! These clowns try and bomb ya the first time right !! hahaha,, That's what I mean, but experience has taught me well in the 10 years I have been around here...

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Hi,
I'm new to this forum.
I'm an American in Kiev.

I have a few comments about this subject, based on what I have learned talking to local friends, and dealing with local attorneys.

First of all, I don't think anyone has mentioned the "registration" system with regards to property ownership. If you have ever looked at the TRP system you will encounter the need to have an address where you are "registered." It first seems kind of like an address where you live and can be legally contacted. But it is more than that.

I have been in several discussions with locals about this registration thing. Apparently being registered at an address is a right to live there. And apparently the owner of a property can't take a registered person off unless that individual goes and unregisters in person.

Considering the difficulty of unregistering someone, it is no wonder that most landlords do not want to allow tenants to register even when renting their apartment.
There is some procedure of unregistering without the persons consent but they have to go to court, and I heard that might not be possible anymore as the law was just recently changed again. You would have to ask an attorney about that.

Also, if there is a written lease, and a landlord allow you to register, that apparently creates some kind of tax burden that tax authorities watch carefully, and that landlord is supposed to pay taxes on their rental income, which apparently is something most landlords try to avoid for some unknown reason. ???
Just being registered isn't enough to create a tax burden, but if there is also a lease to that person, they need to pay taxes.

An attorney told me that it is possible for someone to sell their flat to another, and yet someone else is still "registered" at that address. In other words, say their 25 year old son moved away long ago and they "haven't seen him in 5 years." It's very common for children to be registered at their parents address long after the children have moved away. The parents sell their property to you. After you fix up the property to be nice, suddenly the son shows up and knocks on the door. You legally have to let him live there, because he still is registered there, and has the right to live there.
And he can enforce that right.

If I were you I would definitely have an attorney involved in every aspect of doing any large transactions in Ukraine.
Even when talking to attorneys here, often they don't know the answers to your questions. They can tell you what it may have been last year, but they will often have to go do some research to make sure the law hasn't been changed recently before they can tell you anything for certain. The law here changes so darn quickly that the attorneys can't even keep up with it.

There is also some kind of special rule in Odessa that I was told about by a realtor-type person when I was visiting there in 2013. They told me that some new law had just passed in Odessa. Apparently, if a property owner lets a visitor stay overnight in their house, that person gains a right to live there in that property, and the owner cannot evict them or get them out legally. The realtor girl was saying that was crazy and confusing and people were trying to understand what that was about. One could speculate that it may have been an attempt to stop prostitution.
I don't know anything else about it but one of you in Odessa might want to ask a realtor or lawyer about that rule.

I have tried to ask and explain the concept of title insurance to locals here, and the concept is unknown to them.

I have been told by locals that a property owner cannot sell their flat until they pay off any loan on that flat. Even if the buyer is getting a new loan.
If that is true, it means there is no functioning escrow system in the way we are used to in the West. Probably the lenders can't get title insurance so they can't be sure they aren't being scammed until they see clean title.

I'm thinking, if that is true, it also means that there may be people out there that want to sell their flat but cannot, due to an outstanding loan. That might be an opportunity to find motivated sellers and negotiate a reasonable total price if you were also to buy the note from the bank, and close on buying both the title and buying the note at the same time, with cash. Doing that would normally require an escrow company. :P I wonder if a lawyer+notary could do it.

Just dealing with notaries here is an experience, you have to have an official translator, etc...

There is a book on Amazon kindle called "Doing business in Ukraine" which is written by an American lawyer who moved to Kiev many years ago. The book is dated, but it describes many Ukrainian laws in English and is interesting as a reference. The law changes frequently so that book is probably out-of-date by now. I don't know the lawyer who wrote it but I learned a few things by reading it. The biggest thing I learned is how unstable the law is here.

Perhaps others here who are more experienced could shed more light on some of these subjects.

Good luck, and hire a lawyer so you don't need it.

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KKmail
Have you had any experience... or heard about anyone having experience...purchasing property in Nikolaev? The woman I love lives in Nikolaev and I don't think she would move to Odesa! So any info about buying in Nikolaev would be very helpful!
My buddy Extreme lives in Nikolaev and has been more help than I can say... But we both would probably appreciate any Very Good info on purchasing property there!
Although...very good info from everyone on this Tag... I just know one can Never have enough info about buying property there in Ukraine!
Thanks Guys!!!

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Hi Dr...

Well, you sure are the bold one !! Looking to buy a house 1/2 way around the world so you can be near a women you've never met !! My kind of guy, hunt that girl down and cozy up !! Your determined !! Great ! I really hope things work for you, and being the gambler I also am, I believe in ya !! About purchasing in Nickolaev: What you should do: 1. Go there,,, and you wrote that you are in Sept or Oct this year so great..Next: The rules change on a daily basis but don't think you can just bring some money and buy something. (10k limit anyway )There are procedures. SO : I have a friend that is an attorney and when you get here or have plane tickets to come, I can steer you in the right direction, but getting an English speaking attorney, not to old, is first.. You may have to have a tax number, a residency permit, a bank account and a few other things before you can buy. And they want to know where exactly did the money come from. And if you don't have a bank account here, you will need one that you can wire transfer into. Funny the banks have instruction sheets all ready to go in any language ! If you choose otherwise, plan on paying quite a bit in fee's..So think about that, you have to come here to open an account, then go back there to wire money to it. International wires are free in the usa as you know if you maintain high balances.. And plus when your upwards of say 100k you don't really want to pay 3 percent just to get it here..You will want a u.s. dollar account and a uah account. Attach a credit card to both. I cant tell you exactly everything you will need, because of the many changes, and I will not guess. Get that info from the attorney and if your in a hurry he/she will have people to walk you through the process for a small price....Next: I would use a realtor that actually has a office that you can go to, like we are used to. They don't have "real estate licenses " here so anyone can be a realtor, and I have seen some that should not be..Scamming is not an unknown thing around here. Use reputable people, with offices and don't try and bargain hunt in that arena.. Paying a little money can and will speed up the process of getting what you need ( documents etc. ) to be able to realize your dream so don't be bashful to ask, " how much for quickly " ..Usually an extra $20 for one document will do it..As far as buying in Nickolaev, compared to Odesa, it is about 20-30 percent cheaper..And, buying in the center of the city is also about 20-30 percent more. Some other things : The buyer pays all costs and that is non-negotiable..Usually about 10 percent. The attorney will cost you about $500 from start to finish. All the documents you may or may not need are relatively cheap, probably $150 max..So if you buy something for 60k plan on spending 70..And, you are going to hear from many people if you are doing good research, but caution, if they don't have experience beware. Mostly from the Ukrainian folks side. E.G., there are literally hundreds of houses around the Odesa area that are not finished because the fine folks DID NOT do enough research and did not have any experience. So please, BEWARE. So, here are a few numbers to go by. Remember these are Odesa numbers though..For a cheap flat about $5000 per sq. meter. Expensive, up to 15k per....Houses are all over the board, anywhere from say 40k up..Things are priced here quite foolishly also.. There's two questions the realtors ask you. 1. How many rooms (sleeping). 2. How many sortka ( Land,, 10x10 meters = 1) And there ya have the price !! Doesn't really make much of a difference if you have a pool,sauna, jacuzzi bathtubs, 5 car garage etc etc.. So its crazy like that !! So there's a start for ya. And Dr..I have experienced everything I have wrote here, and am more than willing to share, to help you hunt that girl and realize your dream !! GOOD LUCK !!

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KKMail
Thank you so very much for your info!!!
When I get over there...myself and Extreme will come visit you and really get to know each other!
I can't wait!!! Although...I have a Big Project to Finish to secure a Steady Income for My Elena and her Son!
That is...If She has Chemistry with Me when WE meet!!!!
Pursuant to US hitting it off well...Then my Future will probably be in Ukraine with Trips back and forth to the States!
Thank you for all your help and I look forward to meeting You and Extreme Face-To-Face in Ukraine!!!

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007, go to a web sight called Slando. You can look at homes all over Ukraine. You will notice over time that once you get about 1-2 hours away from Odessa the prices drop drastically on purchase price of homes compared to Odessa area. If you are willing to by in Nikoleav, I bet that home will be about 25-30K less than Odessa area. Kiev, Lviv, Ivano Frankiv, Borsophil are dirt cheap.......FYI.

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NA67...
Thank you for the Info!
This will help quite a bit in Research for buying Homes in and around Nikolaev!!!
By this time next year...I hope to be Physically Searching for property there!

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007, If it was me and my wife moving soon. I have already told my Lena we would just rent for 3-6 months and do a lot of recon in different areas we might be interested in. Also, Nikoleav should be cheap...but get 20-30 minutes away from Nikoleav and it will be even cheaper. I would search for an area that has all your families needs like shopping. Then consider train and bus travel being available also...its a bonus

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NA67...
Thank you again for your Info!
Yes...There is a Happy Median to have a Home that is Priced right...And have the type of resources one would like near the home for convenience! I can't wait to get over there and find out if my future shall be Ukraine or Back to the States! There is Only One Woman I know...That shall make that determination!!! My Elena!!!!

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One last thing, my Elena gave me another web site for you. dom.ria.com very good site also. both these web sites can be translated by useing google translator into English while useing the site. I am computer stupid, my Elena did it for me))) Good luck !!

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So much info packed into this thread. Thanks to all who have contributed.

KK, I've seen apartments listed on the web at 10k to 25k per sq m. Could not tell any difference in location or apparent quality between 10k and 25k ones. So that adds a question mark in my mind.

Was the 15k/sqm for a fully refurbished apartment or a shell that would need all the finishing touches added? Seems a little high price maybe???

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The answer is both furnished and unfurnished. I rent and sell my stuff furnished, new one's old ones whatever. There's new buildings that go upwards of 20k per meter out in Arcadia unfurnished..It's really just all over the board and has quite of few variables, location etc..Some people like it downtown, so it's more, some people like my region so it's more..Then we have a 60 meter flat we could sell for 35-40k but it only rents for 4000 uah per month !! And that's on a main street amongst everything !! Not downtown but still, walkimg distance to everything...So in Odesa, there's every type of region and every type of price..So I've read quite a few times that outside of Odesa is cheaper but I cant really see how it could be much cheaper than 4000 month could you !!

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