bisonburgher
11/23/2015 15:06 EST
Howdy from the Last Best Place, Montana. Longtime lurker, first-time poster here.
My spouse and I are lucky enough to have seen a lot of the world, while keeping an eye toward our near-future retirement plans. Our short list is down to Uruguay and Nicaragua. We've seen Argentina from Iguazú to Calafate, but only day-tripped to Colonia (that damned "bu-bu-buquebus" will /never/ get out of my head). My Spanish is proficient (not fluent) however Rioplatense still sounds to my ears more like Italian with a Spanish accent. My better half is currently Spanish-challenged.
Question 1: Is it within the realm of possibility to purchase enough agricultural property for (let's say) US$500k that would return sufficient profit to meet the UY income requirement for residency? We don't need/want to live on the coast but would consider running a mid-range B&B or estancia if the financials are attractive. We're both very respectful, resourceful & hardworking, and (think) we'll be good at anything from raising cattle to hotel management (and have done both.) Totally not afraid of heavy equipment, getting dirty, or breaking a sweat.
Question 2: Although UY has marriage equality and no strong conservative religious tradition, is it fair to say that the social acceptance of gay folks decreases as you move farther inland? If so, by how much? Most people just assume my husband and I are brothers, but we have no desire to be closeted wherever we end up. Our closest friends here are families with children, and we've never been in-your-face party animals. We're pretty boring, actually...
Sadly, people here in Montana have refused to do business with us (never to our face) once they found out we're married. We brush it off, but really just want to be part of a community where we're appreciated for our hard work, delicious asado, and keen eye for design. From what I understand, Urugayos are generally that kind of people -- please tell me I'm not wrong ;-)
¡muchísimas gracias!
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letsmove
11/23/2015 18:51 EST
Uruguayans accept people for who they are. So you are right about that. You will be very pleased. If you want to get residency, you will have to have proof of income. But you can buy property regardless of residency. Your $$ figure will buy you nice property.
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doublekindness
11/23/2015 18:58 EST
We're close to you down in Colorado and are looking to move also to have a nice little farm. We're straight, but most of my good friends are gay. My best friends are planning on joining us and are a gay couple. We hope for a smooth move also to more tolerant climates :)
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bisonburgher
11/23/2015 22:23 EST
Cheers for the words of encouragement.
I guess we're seeking someone who understands the finca/chacra/estancia market well enough to say, "$500k will get you a soybean farm that nets $12k per year, but it will have to be in Paysandú" -- or whatever the case may be.
Is that kind of person a real estate agent, farm broker, business advisor, an escritorio, or ... ?
I'm also seeing figures from US$500-2,000 per month as the minimum income requirement for residency. Finding out what that amount really is, is fundamental to our decision.
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edykizaki
11/24/2015 07:04 EST
Yes, that's exactly what Pablo was doing for a friend, and he even came up with scenarios, so he'd still be someone to definitely go to for questions answered! He showed how much larger acerage (which is necessary for cows or trees) would be much less per acre than the same land divided up into small chakras... also he showed the cost projections... I think they provided 2 examples, one parcel for sale was 380k and one in the 600s ... this was a while ago but they were examples, then he explained how one could lease the land longterm to someone who wanted to do forestry or run cows on it. pablo@gasallainmobiliaria.com
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letsmove
11/24/2015 08:09 EST
You might want to check out Mercado Libre Uruguay for properties:
http://inmuebles.mercadolibre.com.uy/campos/venta/paysandu/
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Morell
11/24/2015 08:41 EST
If you look in the post Residency Process you will see a link to the Government booklet which gives all the details to get residency.
There are several different categories depending on your situation and where you are from.
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dbuddmd
11/24/2015 11:35 EST
to bisonburgher,
Noel de los Santos at Campos del Este knows EVERYTHING about what is available, the pluses and minuses value for money etc - regarding estancias, chacras and the like.
He also speaks English fluently and is an escribana so does all that for you, too. If an attorney is necessary there is a delightful one on his staff.
The website: http://www.camposdeleste.com/site/index.php
and email is:
camposdeleste@gmail.com
The land is usually described as HAs (hectares) which are roughly 2.5 acres.
and NO i don't work there. when we were first looking around we forgot how old we are and thought we'd buy land and grow stuff. Then we got real and bought a furnished house in Punta del Este! But we LOVE Noel and he spent DAYS with us-teaching, driving us around, helping us learn the system.
Good luck and good choice!
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bisonburgher
11/24/2015 17:25 EST
Thanks for the tip @dbuddmd, that sounds like what we need. My plan is to wait a few months for the summer rush to die down, then schedule a meeting during our May-June scouting trip.
cheers
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bisonburgher
11/24/2015 17:42 EST
We're about 1000 miles from Colorado, the nearest major city is in Canada. Probably qualifies as 'close' in the Intermountain West ;-)
Not implying all Montanans are intolerant, just that some folks feel its A-OK to shun and shame a customer, after they've taken our money. It's not just the religious fundamentalists, there is a type of Montana Man who does this for psychosexual reasons (I'm assuming). There are no laws against it, so I now approach any seller of services with the statement, "we're legally married; will you do business with us?"
This kind of thing wouldn't happen in most of Latin America, in our experience. We've never been treated poorly as guests or paying customers, anyplace. My question pertained more to interpersonal relationships such as neighbors and business associates.
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crazyfarmer
11/24/2015 17:56 EST
>Howdy from the Last Best Place,
>Montana. Longtime lurker, first-time
>poster here.
Hi
>Question 1: Is it within the realm of
>possibility to purchase enough
>agricultural property for (let's say)
>US$500k that would return
>sufficient profit to meet the UY
>income requirement for residency?
I'd look for another way.
>Question 2: Although UY has
>marriage equality and no strong
>conservative religious tradition, is it
>fair to say that the social acceptance
>of gay folks decreases as you move
>farther inland?
I don't think they'll care.
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crazyfarmer
11/24/2015 18:02 EST
>I guess we're seeking someone
>who understands the
>finca/chacra/estancia market well
>enough to say, "$500k will get you a
>soybean farm that nets $12k per
>year, but it will have to be in
>Paysandú" -- or whatever the case
>may be.
It's like any other business. You'd have to see the books.
There's a person in Colonia named Patrick O'Donnell. If you ask around enough online and on facebook, you'll find him. He's about 80 and fun to talk to. he knows quite a bit about farming for profit here in Uruguay. I think he'd be the most likely to be able to give you the estimates you're looking for.
>Is that kind of person a real estate
>agent, farm broker, business advisor,
>an escritorio, or ... ?
I don't think I would trust anyone to make that sort of assessment unfortunately.
>I'm also seeing figures from
>US$500-2,000 per month as the
>minimum income requirement for
>residency. Finding out what that
>amount really is, is fundamental to
>our decision.
I think these days it will be closer to the $2000 mark, but probably not that high. There's no hard and fast numbers though which is why you're hearing a mixture of numbers. They're just going to want to see that you can support yourself here.
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carlitos
11/24/2015 18:07 EST
When I first saw the question also thought about Patrick he would love to help you. I am sure.
Another thing that caught my attention is the number immigration is giving everyday. I don't know if this is true but if they are giving only 20 number per day, then a lot of folks will not be able to come.
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Morell
11/24/2015 18:09 EST
I recall Patrick mentioning he had a multi year contract with Chinese buyers to grow soy.
Last year due to the major drop in prices his buyers paid him NOT to grow any.
I have also read about low milk prices and difficulties selling beef cattle.
Buyer beware here for sure.
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dbuddmd
11/24/2015 21:10 EST
A couple of other thoughts:
1. you probably already know that every piece of land in beautiful UY is rated re agricultural quality. If you are considering farmland in Uruguay, and you are interested in a particular parcel, you can get the parcel number from the owner, go to the CONEAT website, www.prenader.gub.uy/coneat,
enter the parcel number at the bottom of the page, and get a great deal of information about that land.
The CONEAT evaluation will show different levels of fertility in different areas of the parcel. It may have several grades of soil. Naturally bottom land is likely to show more fertility than slopes. This is a numerical grading system whereby, depending on the number on that particular area of the land, it may be best used for cattle, row crops or forestry. Then they give an overall average.
The average index for soils is 100. Low fertility soils will have a lower average. An average of less than 80 is considered best for forestry, 80 to 120 is supposed best for grassland and cattle, and above 120 for row crops and more intensive farming.
2. immigration loves folks who start businesses especially if you hire Uruguayanos. Noel showed us some parcels with young olive trees, others with mature olive trees - if you were interested, you could hire some help with your trees (some live in small places on-site) Noel can give you all the info you'd need to do that.
Even if you are only allowing a neighbor to graze a few of their horses on your land for trivial recompense - THAT counts as a business and, for instance, you then qualify for health care coverage much sooner than you would thru regular immig. processes.
Olives are an exciting crop as a world class olive oil industry is starting to take off in UY. Local (from UY) oils are winning European plaudits / gold medals.
In addition to olives, blueberries love it here - and grow deliciously, even on lower coneat scored land.
3. Noel is totally cool about people's private lives. While we were there he was working closely & comfortably with two gay men. But (and this is speculation): the inland gaucho culture is really macho and i suspect it may be less...um....tolerant of diversity. Just a guess.
ciao!
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bisonburgher
11/24/2015 21:59 EST
Thanks @dbuddmd, I read about the CONEAT score but the additional details I didn't know. There's a similar system here but probably not as granular: Uruguay is half the size of Montana and 3x the population.
We're on the same page re: crop and grazing land. I'm intrigued by the idea of growing olives. Greece is spectacular and we have fond memories of it; would probably emigrate there if they smoked less and drove like sane people. In my scenario, we'd work the property ourselves for as long as we're able, then when SS benefits kick in (about 10 years for me) we can bring in more help as needed. By then, we should know the business well enough to manage it responsibly, and would have built community ties to bring good people on board.
Didn't mean to give the impression that we're in any way worried about going or living anywhere in Uruguay as a married couple. We live in cowboy country and are very familiar with the /quién es más macho/ posture. It's usually the wives who latch onto us first (go figure) thereby providing "cover" for their husbands to be friendly. I'm assuming the same process would play out down there.
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maxbjorkstrom
11/25/2015 11:31 EST
Hi all,
Just a heads up, lots of soy farming etc. has been moved to Paraguay. Less hassle with the government and obviously all around prices( mostly labour and land).
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mamandanna
11/27/2015 05:12 EST
Hello.
You mentioned running a B&B. We are selling a house in Montevideo that was a B&B. If a city B&B could interest you, please let me know and I can send you more information.
kind regards,
Francesca
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mamandanna
11/27/2015 05:14 EST
Hi there - one more thing: the house I mentioned was Montevideo's first gay B&B before my brother bought it.
Could be karma? :-)
Anyway, do let me know if you could be interested.
Francesca
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crazyfarmer
11/28/2015 12:55 EST
> The CONEAT evaluation will show
>different levels of fertility in different
>areas of the parcel.
My place has a coneat score of 196. The soil looks nice and black. I can't grow jack.
The soils in many of the heavily farmed parts of uruguay are depleted. I think people should expect to have to truck in compost or make their own regardless of their coneat score or where they live.
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gbowwii
12/8/2015 09:01 EST
There is a 94 hectare property in your price range just above Minas that has land for varied uses including spectacular home site on hill tops. http://www.sierralorencita.com/
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Pffsrl
12/8/2015 19:27 EST
Hey crazy, what did you pay per hectare for 196? Would love to compare with what we paid.
I also second the comment not to trust any realtor, broker, whatever....
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futureexpat1
12/8/2015 21:23 EST
Bison, I tried to send you a private message. Not sure how well this function works on this site.
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