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Retired to Ireland, NOW GIVEN 7 DAYS TO LEAVE!!!

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dave8408e
9/24/2015 09:47 EST

My wife and I sold everything in the USA, and moved to Ireland in May 2014. Before we moved, we read everything available on what the requirements were to live here, and contacted the Irish Embassy in San Francisco to confirm the info we had. (Their only concern was 'did we know it rains a lot in winter'). We applied for permission to remain as retirees in Sept. 2014...the same week Irish Immigration, without warning, instituted a rule stating retirees must have 50,000 Euros EACH in NON- investment income in order to stay! Now, after a year of reviewing our case, we get a lovely letter (23/9/2015) from INIS telling us we've got A WEEK to leave the country! Mind you, we have proven to them (certified by an Irish accountant) that we have plenty of money to live on; we have insurance, own our lovely Irish home outright, and have zero debt. My wife is in tears. What in Hell is wrong with Ireland's government, when houses sit vacant for years, Irish citizens have to leave to find jobs, etc. We want to spend our money here; support local businesses, participate in the local community --- but NOOOO. Get out. Ireland only wants Americans if you're bloody rich; they can't keep out people from the EU and they're taking thousands of refugees, but even having proved that we won't be a burden on the State, they want us to leave. We're devastated. Any suggestions or personal experience in dealing with INIS in this matter will be appreciated.

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DonieHoran
9/24/2015 10:01 EST

Even though ,I have nothing concrete to offer you in terms of advise ,I am truly very sorry to hear of your prediciment. That is dreadful - 7 days notice is absolutely crazy, ,n fact, it's unbelievable - what beauracratic Civil Servant came up with that nonsense. I am very uneasy ,to say the very least ,of the manner in which you have been treated by the Irish Authorities. At the very least ,I suggest that you appeal the decision & seek ,at minimum ,a more practical timeframe. Perhaps you should also contact your revevant Embassy in Ireland to enlist their support.Good luck !!

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FlowerFairy
9/24/2015 12:20 EST

I am gobsmacked!!! Don't know what to say.....surely there must be somewhere to appeal???Unbelievable! Adding insult to injury 'illegals' storming into the EU

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FlowerFairy
9/24/2015 12:29 EST

A suggestion, bypass INIS go straight to the TD as well as local government representatives, newspapers, television stations, radio stations. Authorities think people will just accept a decision without a fight. Authorities do like it when ridiculous decisions are made and such stupid decisions are brought to the public's attention. I am sure you will be able to gather support from fellow expats in your quest as many of those will be affected. Also, it would not be unreasonable to publicise your treatment in the USA to not only warn other people considering such a move but I doubt the USA authorities would welcome such treatment being levied to their citizens. Best of luck, it is worth the fight.

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FlowerFairy
9/24/2015 12:33 EST

Sorry a typo.."Authorities do like it..." should of course read "Authorities do not like it..."

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FlowerFairy
9/24/2015 12:33 EST

Sorry a typo.."Authorities do like it..." should of course read "Authorities do not like it..."

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Mellis5910
9/25/2015 00:30 EST

Dave, sorry to hear this, wish I could help. Back in June there was a case of a family in Kerry successfully fighting deportation. Here's a link to their story and how they won their battle with INIS.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Family-threatened-with-deportation-from-Ireland-granted-one-year-to-remain.html

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dave8408e
9/25/2015 08:47 EST

To all concerned: Thanks for your kind words of support. We're in a state of shock, as you can imagine. We went to Enda Kenny's office today (nice folks) and we've sent off a letter to him asking for urgent action. Here's another kick in the pants: We'd just renewed our passport stamp before we received our letter -- now we have to go to our local Garda Immigration office and SURRENDER OUR PASSPORTS so they can remove the extension stamp. WTF? Our immigration officer is as stunned as we are with this turn of events. I feel like I've been accused of a crime I didn't commit! I'm wondering about all the other non-EU retirees who are on year to year renewals; are they going to get uprooted too if they can't prove they get €50,000/per person per year? Ireland is a delightfully half-bubble off plumb country, but this, this is crazy-making stuff.

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Mellis5910
9/25/2015 09:02 EST

That is outrageous, you're caught in a bureaucratic nightmare. Can you also contact your local representative and raise support through the media? At least get an extension on the departure date? The Ware family got a one year extension after they made a big media fuss.


You raise a good issue regarding others in your situation.

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DonieHoran
9/25/2015 10:46 EST

Good for you guys - I think that appealing to the Prime Minister is an excellent measure - Enda is a personable political leader with a nice common touch & I am sure that he will intervene for you in a positive & productive manner. Don't give up - just yet !! The very best of luck to you both .

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dave8408e
9/25/2015 14:47 EST

Here's a tip for any of you ever lucky enough to live in Ireland: like nowhere else I've lived, it's not what you know but who you know. It doesn't matter if you need a plumber or a steak in the butcher shop, if you can say "So and So sent me", doors open. So.... As it turns out, a neighbour is well-connected politically. He heard my story, and had a TD (like a US member of the House of Representatives) on the phone in SECONDS. On a Friday night. At 6 PM. So...I'm meeting with the TD Monday. Wish me luck...

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Buzyizzzy
9/25/2015 16:22 EST

That is utterly appalling and so unbelievably stressful for you both. I can't offer any advice, other than go public, to any media that will listen.
Very best of luck for Monday. Cornwall is also a place where it's not what you know but who you know. Having lived here six years, I now have a great network, but it took some doing!! Let us know any news ????

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pobauto
9/25/2015 17:18 EST

We are crossing our fingers for you. Please let us know how you make out.

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dave8408e
9/26/2015 10:41 EST

You know, I must really be Irish, as the Irish turn to song when life gets rough. Here's a little ditty I composed for those dark days ahead, and I find myself in some faux-Irish pub well sloshed in Guinness...

Sung to “Fields of Athenry”....

In a Shannon Airport hall,
I heard our new friends calling...
David they are taking you away
For you earned Fitzgerald’s* scorn
Since you weren’t of the manor born
Now Aer Lingus lies waiting for you today...

Low lie the fields of Ballinrobe
Where once we shared a wee humble abode
Our house it was roofed with thatch,
We had dreams, and the craic to match
It’s so lonely ‘round the fields of Ballinrobe

In a Shannon Airport hall
I heard an old man calling;
Nothing matters Maura when you’re free,
Against the eejits in Dublin town
We moved here, they ran us down,
Now Mary Kate’s** an orphan lacking dignity...

Low lie the fields of Ballinrobe
Where once we shared a wee humble abode
Our house it was roofed with thatch,
We had dreams, and the craic to match
It’s so lonely ‘round the fields of Ballinrobe


*Minister of Justice Fitzgerald
**Our cat.

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Mellis5910
9/26/2015 14:53 EST

Haha, Dave, that's the spirit! Keep your energy positive and I'm sure it will all work out.

We're all rooting for you, please keep us informed with the outcome.

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dave8408e
9/28/2015 13:03 EST

"We want people like you in Ireland" said my local TD at our meeting today. Now I hope he can convince the Minister for Justice to feel the same way... also heard back from the Taoiseach's office, assuring me he was given my info. So....now, watchful waiting... which if recall correctly, was what the doctor said, as my mother lay on her deathbed. Sorry, that's the best gallows humour I can come up with right now.

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dave8408e
9/28/2015 13:23 EST

Received a PM from 'Susanna' who is apparently in similar circumstances... I can't offer her more than my best wishes; she sounds like a great person and is finding herself about to move to a wonderful country with a crazed new policy for non-EU retirees. Listen up, people: don't trust any website, forum, etc for information on a life-changing decision like moving to a foreign country, even the government 'official' ones. Get everything, EVERYTHING in writing from someone with a title and a legible signature. The business letter, contrary to popular belief, is not dead. Document everything; if you're forced into a phone convo make contemporaneous notes, date and time record, and get a name and contact info for covering your a$$ later on. (but you knew all that, right?) Pretend you're a journalist, and try and get two independent sources for every bit of info, in case your first source is challenged. That being said, while Ireland sometimes acts like a 3rd world country pretending to work like their only historical example (re: England) the people here are unbeatable and I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life. At least until the Garda show up with cuffs in hand...

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dave8408e
9/28/2015 13:24 EST

Received a PM from 'Susanna' who is apparently in similar circumstances... I can't offer her more than my best wishes; she sounds like a great person and is finding herself about to move to a wonderful country with a crazed new policy for non-EU retirees. Listen up, people: don't trust any website, forum, etc for information on a life-changing decision like moving to a foreign country, even the government 'official' ones. Get everything, EVERYTHING in writing from someone with a title and a legible signature. The business letter, contrary to popular belief, is not dead. Document everything; if you're forced into a phone convo make contemporaneous notes, date and time record, and get a name and contact info for covering your a$$ later on. (but you knew all that, right?) Pretend you're a journalist, and try and get two independent sources for every bit of info, in case your first source is challenged. That being said, while Ireland sometimes acts like a 3rd world country pretending to work like their only historical example (re: England) the people here are unbeatable and I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life. At least until the Garda show up with cuffs in hand...

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dave8408e
9/28/2015 13:29 EST

I just put up a post about not believing everything you read on the web... and just noted that the information shown here re: retiring in Ireland on the links adjacent to this page
(over there <--------)
are out of date. Question everything. Remember the 60's, folks...question authority. Even mine.

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FlowerFairy
9/28/2015 13:49 EST

If that is so, they need to change the legislation. The whole thing is appalling, particularly when 'they' change the goalposts (re the 50k). Better to come in on a rubber dinghy! Sorry, but it is true. The world is going mad! We are all barracking for you and your wife. But this should not have to be 'sorted' on a case-by-case basis but the rules need to be clearly defined. People pack up their entire lives, after a lot of research (trust me, I know) and then something like this happens. Fingers crossed and hopefully you and your wife get to stay permanently, if you still want to after this!

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MarianneB
9/28/2015 15:58 EST

Hello, I am sorry for your massive troubles. I was in a very similar situation in 2013. I read all the rules and researched for 1 year before moving to a village north of Cork in Feb 2013. At the time, they had no $ amounts listed as a requirement, but I had a significant savings, a monthly income, private health insurance (as required), had bought a car in Cork & carried very good car insurance. So there was absolutely no burden on the Irish government.

I had sold/donated my belongings before leaving the US, as I was quite confident I would qualify for residency. (My backup plan was to move to France where they also have a retirement visa category.) Also, I didn't want to store my belongings, not knowing where I would move back to if I had to.

I moved 3 pets, which was very expensive, and was renting a cottage and spending my money in the local community (and not at any of the large department stores.). The local immigration official in Fermoy said it generally takes 3-4 months for a decision to be made. At 6 months, I was sent a letter requesting I have a medical exam completed. I paid 100 euros and the Irish physician thought it was an absolute joke, since I was perfectly healthy. I was also asked for a list of people/friends I knew in Ireland. I had never read about that request on any of the expat forums. I only had a few aquaintances, so sent those names in. Stll no word for several months.

I had an invitation to visit friends in Scotland in the Fall & checked with the local immigration officer to be sure it was okay to travel (as some expats said you were not supposed to), but he said I was in Ireland legally until a decision was made and could visit the UK on holiday. Just as I was returning from Scotland at the end of October, 9 months after arriving, I received the denial letter saying I did not have enough "bulk funds" available. Though not wealthy, my savings account probably had more money in it than over 1/2 the Irish population (or more). They also said I didn't have enough money should I want to buy a house in the future. I had no plans to buy a house, since one of the reasons I chose Ireland was because of the glut of rental properties & I wanted the opportunity to live in different parts of the country, that owning a home would not allow.

Still boggles my mind, as even if I had become ill, my health insurance would have covered most the cost. or had I been in a car accident, my insurance would have covered it. My monthly expenses were tiny, as it was only me, & my monthly income covered those & more (side trips, holidays) - there was no reason to touch my savings.

I was given 10 days to leave the country. I had to arrange to ship my pets and left my car with friends who helped me sell it (at a loss, of course) at a later date. I also lost money on not having time to sell the few household items I had purchased there and did not have the ability to take back with me.

I would have liked to move on to France (my backup plan), but 10 days didn't give me enough time to find a location and place to live or arrange for my pets to be relocated there. Plus, the INIS said they needed proof (copy of a stamp in my passport) that I re-entered the US. (By the way, there is no incoming stamp for your passport in the US, so you have to ask & ask until you can find someone in Immigration when you reach the US to stamp/write in your passport, so you can send proof back to INIS.)I really have no plans to return, but I wanted to remain "legal" as I didn't want to show up on a list somewhere that I did not leave the country as required..

I did send INIS an emergency appeal letter by email and expedited mail as soon as I received the rejection, but never heard a word back. There is no way to reach them by phone. I gave them a friend's mailing address in County Kerry & they never even responded after I left.

My take on it? Since I was younger than the normal age 65 retirement age, I think they thought I was going to try to work illegally in the country, taking a job away from an Irish citizen. I had taken an eary retirement due to a medical disabilty, so there was absolutely no way I was going to work (and I had my physician write a letter stating that). My medical disability did not require ongoing medical treatment, so that could not have been the reason & the Irish physician confirmed that I was healthy.

Unfortunately, many people do just that - overstay their visas and work illegally. There was 1 young couple I knew of that had been there 6 years, bought a house, and were working illegally, so I know that people do it. So, that was the only reason I could come up with.

The whole adventure cost me thousands of dollars and though I have wonderful memories of my time there, I was always on edge, waiting to hear if I had been approved. Why they just didn't state the dollar amounts required beforehand (maybe they do now) or allow you to apply before you go, is beyond me.

Your situation sounds more challenging due to real estate ownership. I am sorry I have no advice, only my example of the same thing happening. Thank you for reading such a long response.

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MarianneB
9/28/2015 16:10 EST

I see, as I read your follow-up comments, that you are making headway in your appeals. I was all alone and did not know to go that route (and was in such shock, probably wasn't thinking straight.) Well done and I hope it all works out positively for you and your wife.

I did hear of another US citizen who was originally denied, who had a connection with a US Senator who intervened and that person was later approved. So, it does happen. Goid luck!

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dave8408e
9/29/2015 09:14 EST

Hey, figured it wouldn't hurt...sent this to "Irish Central'....
PRESS RELEASE:
An unpublicised change in Irish immigration rules has eliminated the ability of all but wealthy non-Europen Union citizens from retiring in the country.

Effective without notice some time in March 2015, the Ireland Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) changed the standards by which non-EU retirees are determined to be financially suitable for residency.

The new rule requires that retirees have an annual income of no less than €50,000 per person, (€100,000 for a married couple) for the remainder of their lives in Ireland, regardless of their existing cash on hand or lack of debt.

Retirees have also had their immigration status changed from Stamp 3 to Stamp 0, "a low level immigration status which is not intended to be reckonable for Long Term Residence or Citizenship. It is granted to persons who have been approved by INIS for a limited and specific stay in Ireland." according the INIS website.

David and Maura Woods relocated to Ireland from California in May 2014, having purchased a home in County Mayo. They applied for permission to remain in Ireland in September 2014, and despite having arrived before INIS changed its methodology, their application was rejected on the basis of not having an annual income of €100,000, and at the same time issued with an order to leave Ireland in seven days.

Mr. and Mrs. Woods are presently contesting the INIS decision as their cash assets and projected income far exceed any potential expenses. They further state that they are debt free.

"We paid cash for our house and car. As we have no debt, have private health insurance, and live a modest lifestyle, we can easily get by on less than €25,000 per year -- but INIS, for no explanation, wants us to receive four times that amount," Mr. Woods states.

"The standard by which Ireland has always judged retirees has been whether or not they would be a 'burden on the State'. Obviously, we are not now, nor ever will be, a burden on the Irish economy - just the opposite. We spend our money in local stores, pay Irish taxes, and support charitable organisations. Neighbors in our village are shocked that their government is trying to turn us away." Mr. Woods continued.

The effect on retirees who arrived prior to the new rules is unclear, as each non-EU retiree must apply yearly for a one year extension of their passport stamp. Potentially, American, Canadian, and other retirees may be asked to leave despite having lived comfortably in Ireland for years or even decades.

Links:
INIS website: http://www.inis.gov.ie

Relevant INIS link to Stamps authorising legal residency: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Stamps

INIS page defining conditions under which retirees (persons of independent means) may remain in Ireland: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Stamp%200

From the Internet Archive, INIS webpage regarding retirees in Ireland, dated September 1, 2014 - scroll to Stamp 3 description: https://web.archive.org/web/20140901233039/http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Stamps


For further information:

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dave8408e
9/29/2015 09:19 EST

MarianneB: Wow just wow... why are they doing this to us? You probably have noticed, if I mentioned it, that while the rule was you had to have enough money to buy a house in order to receive permission to stay, they now say that owning a house is not a reason to grant permission to remain! Hell of a Catch -22, huh?

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susannamca
9/29/2015 17:10 EST

Great press release, Dave.
I wonder if there are other places you should send it. At the moment, not one of the websites or forums devoted to moving to Ireland contains any reference to this new requirement (which has stopped us in our tracks, even though we own a home in Co Galway and were planning to move house this fall). With enough publicity and widespread outrage, possibly the powers that be will see how arbitrary, unrealistic, and locally damaging - possibly even nationally damaging - this clandestine new ruling is.
Let us know how we can help.

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dave8408e
9/30/2015 05:17 EST

to Susannamca: try and get some sort of letter from INIS authorising your long-term stay before leaving the US. They'll probably want all the info i had to provide AND if you know any Irish politicians a word on your behalf wouldn't hurt. Don't know where the nearest Irish Consular office is, might be worth a visit and get someone there who'll go on record as saying in writing you won't be a 'burden on the State'....? Even a US congressman...
Don't give up hope!

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anamcara
9/30/2015 10:15 EST

Greetings dave8408e :)
I moved to Cork about two years ago from Colorado...but am lucky to have an EU passport. I wonder if it would be of any help to get an FB site going to spread the word and IF a petition of some sort could help in this situation to bring a bit of media attention to it? I would consider sending your well written Press Release to RTE and to a couple of local radio stations
(Red FM/C103) for example? I am happy to support you in any way that I can. Please PM me anytime.

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dave8408e
9/30/2015 13:40 EST

I've been given some hope through political channels for my own case; but I intend to push the issue publicly once this is resolved, for other people in the same circumstances. I see no reason that other non-EU retirees can't be tossed out when their annual passport stamp comes up for review, based on the new rules that haven't been publicised. If enough people shine a light on this stupid rule, maybe someone will realise that non-EU retirees who have adequate resources are a benefit to Ireland, and that Ireland ought to be making an effort to attract them (and their retirement money) the same way the country tries to lure tourists.

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FlowerFairy
9/30/2015 13:50 EST

Good for you! New rules should not be retrospective and new rules should be properly publicised to ensure full disclosure.

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dave8408e
10/1/2015 04:25 EST

Well, as of today, I'm technically an Illegal Alien, though my TD says not to worry. I worry anyway. Here's a question for you folks: What other Expat forums do you follow? I'd like to spread the word about the new immigration law, and perhaps you know of sites retirees might be reading... Some of the sites devoted to moving to Ireland only want to sell the dream and not address the realities of doing so, in my opinion. They have good reason not to do so, of course; their money is made on traffic, links etc and the truth might hurt their numbers... but if you've got suggestions, fire away!

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susannamca
10/3/2015 05:32 EST

You might start with citizensinformation.ie which is relied upon by many for accurate information, and is still saying retirees fall under a Stamp 3 classification (much friendlier than Stamp 0)..

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dave8408e
10/3/2015 12:44 EST

susannamca: Paid them a visit; they had nothing to share, didn't seem exceptionally interested, and hadn't heard of the issue before. Warned them that I might be the tip of the iceberg; that the might be seeing more non-EU expats in the future with this issue, and they didn't seem to care. Told them I'd talked to my TD and the Taoiseach and said that if I'd managed to get them on my side, they wouldn't be able to do any better.

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Mellis5910
10/4/2015 13:25 EST

Dave, apparently Irish Central was more interested than you thought.

There's an article about you and the situation on there today:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Ireland-rejecting-American-retirees-under-new-rules.html

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FlowerFairy
10/4/2015 13:35 EST

Good work!!!!

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dave8408e
10/4/2015 17:21 EST

Seems we're all the rage on Irish Central right now, folks. 1,500 shares to the story in one day, and 70-some odd (some very odd, off topic) comments. Let's hope someone in Irish government takes note and fixes the rule.

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mmccrane
10/5/2015 01:43 EST

Dave,
There are so very many of us that have been reading about your shocking story.
Please keep us updated since this very much affects so many that want to live in Ireland! We send you our very best Irish Blessings!

Mike

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dave8408e
10/6/2015 07:42 EST

I can't take credit for this, but there's an interesting letter in the October 5 issue of The Irish Times. While I can debate some of the author's cynical attitudes about Americans, I think his heart is in the right place -- attracting US retirees would be of great benefit to the Irish economy. Read it here: http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/could-us-retirees-revitalise-rural-towns-1.2376839

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dave8408e
10/6/2015 07:45 EST

Hmmm... seems I've been locked out of my account on another expat web forum. Nasty message when I tried to post something to my own thread.... Is my situation too hot for them to handle? WTF.

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susannamca
10/6/2015 14:54 EST

Love Michael's letter -- thanks for pointing it out to us! I laughed out loud at his characterization of Americans, much of it tongue-in-cheek rather than cynical, but then I can be cynical too.
Dave, I have a question for you: if the authorities had ruled in your favor on your application to stay a year, when would the year have started? As I understand it, your year was pretty much up by the time they let you know they'd denied you.

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dave8408e
10/6/2015 17:46 EST

susannamca: That's a very good question - I don't know when the year would start. I can think of good reasons for it being either the date of application, or the date the application is approved. I'm hoping I eventually get to find out...

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dave8408e
11/8/2015 16:15 EST

UPDATE: After appealing the INIS decision to kick us out of the country to the Powers That Be, we were granted Stamp 0 permission to remain in Ireland, paid our €600, and have received our precious GNIB registration cards. We're LEGAL! Thanks to all the support from the fine people on the forum... but we need the rules changed to support non-EU retirees who want to live in Ireland, not keep them out. I'm convinced that pressure from the ex-pat community combined with support from people within the Irish Govt. will make this happen. Fight the good fight; don't give up your dream; and never accept that a form-letter response from some bureaucrat is the final verdict.

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DonieHoran
11/8/2015 16:49 EST

Congratulations & well done.!
I sincerely hope that you guys have a brilliant time in the Emerald Isle & that you will find real happiness here.
Cead Mile Failte !

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susannamca
11/8/2015 17:43 EST

Congratulations, glad to hear you're legal at last! Must have been a stressful month+ but grand news that you have been given a year. We do need to work on getting this new policy changed so that the years of permission once again count toward the 5 needed before long-term permission can be sought.

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Buzyizzzy
11/8/2015 18:23 EST

Massive congratulations on your success. Happy stress free retirement!

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Mellis5910
11/8/2015 20:59 EST

That is FANTASTIC news! I'm so glad your story had a happy ending--you are so right, we all should do all we can to make sure this ridiculous rule is changed.

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pobauto
11/9/2015 09:31 EST

Yea!!!
Congratulations, and thanks for keeping us all posted and letting us know how it turned out. It was a rough road, but hopefully all goes well from here on.
"May you find warm words on a cold evening
A full moon on a dark night
And a smooth road all the way to your door".

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dave8408e
11/9/2015 14:57 EST

Thanks for the kind words; it is great to hear that people who have been following this thread are happy to hear there's been a successful outcome. Like I said before, everyone - don't give up the dream!

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rreknit11
11/28/2015 16:08 EST

TO: ANYONE WANTING TO RETIRE IN IRELAND
November 28, 2015

Thanking everyone in advance for reading this email and understanding the importance of passing this information along to as many people as possible.
My name is Elthea Stiegman, a U.S. citizen, and I’ve been planning for 10 years to retire in Ireland. My great-grandparents immigrated to New York from Cork and Dublin. I first visited your beautiful country in 2005 for 11 days. In 2008, I was able to stay for a wonderful 90 days. Five years later, I returned to open a bank account as required in advance of my retirement.
Recently, I came across an article about a new rule in Ireland requiring that every retiree (from a non-EU country) maintain an annual income of $50,000annually to live in Ireland. For me, this news was shocking and distressing. In an effort to confirm the information, I have contacted the Irish Nationalisation and Immigration Service, the U.S. Embassy in Dublin, the Consulate General of Ireland in New York City, the Irish Embassy in San Francisco and the U.S. Department of Justice, 4 TD’s of the Cork County Ireland area, the CEO and Editor and Chief of IrishCentral.com. I am not done yet, I have some other contact that I will be trying to reach out to. The Naturalisation Service did not respond to my e-mail, at least at this point of writing this. Some People at the other entities told me they did not know who could provide accurate information. Still others sent me notification that this is the Irish Law and what INIS requires. I even got a reply that said that in some cases this can be altered depending on the situation.
I am trying to reach out to anyone and everyone that would be affected by this law, the people that want to retire in Ireland. I have tried to gather information and more contacts to spread the word. I understand the law, but I do not understand the basic of the money value. Below are the current statistics I have been able to gather in regard to the retirement of an average Irishman in Ireland:
Current Earnings in Ireland

1. The average workers wage across all sectors is 36K (before taxes) per annum/pp

2. State Pension (Non-Contributory) in 2015 was under 12K per annum/pp

3. Jobseeker's Allowance (Welfare) rates in 2015 were under 10K per annum/pp...so basically the government is saying that an Irish person can live on this income just fine for the year?

HOW did anyone come up with 50K/pp?

I have to say that is what I am challenging, the rate that non-EU retirees in Ireland would have to provide as our annual income, in order to retire in Ireland.

Recently I was able to contact the CEO Editor and Chief of Irishcentral.com , Niall O’Dowd’, about this issue. He was kind enough to past my email onto a TD, Fergus O’Dowd (his brother) to see if he could find out any information for me. I received a reply yesterday (27-11-15) that this issue has gone before Irish Parliament for review. This is extremely good news at this point, but the issue needs more support for any and all individuals that are concerned with this issue.

For those individuals, like me, that had planned to retire in Ireland but now see it a setback in your plans, I feel we need to group together and have our voice heard. I want to make it clear that I am not trying to make waves upsetting the governments or anyone connected to the law. I just want to see exactly how this will work. I, like many others, would like to have definite exact step by step instructions as to how we should proceed according to the law. I would hate to come over and find out I will be deported due to I missed a step in the process of this new law.

My questions to the authorities that I have send emails to were as stated below:

1) Is it true that every non-EU retiree must maintain an annual income of $50,000 to reside in
Ireland?
2) Does the figure of 50,000 represent Euros, U.S. dollars or another currency?
3) Are there any other requirements that non-EU retirees must meet?
4) I’ve been told I would need to have the following to establish residence in Ireland: birth
certificate: marriage decree; divorce decree; passport; proof of health insurance, proof of my
income and where that income is established. If anyone has an Irish bank account is that enough
proof to establish the income proof? Can someone in authority, confirm whether that list
is complete or whether I would need additional documentation?

5) Is the new law in effect and will expats who do not meet the income requirement be deported?

6) Is it possible the requirements can be modified or can I satisfy the criteria in some way other than
maintaining the minimum annual income requirement?

I feel with the importance of changing countries of residence, we need to know exactly what is required so that we have no miscommunication. In the article I read originally about this law and Americans being deported from Ireland due to not having that income, became known to me in November 2015. I have recently heard that the Family that was writing telling of their dilemma of being deported, their case has been reviewed and they have now been given the privilege of staying in Ireland. I am happy for them. I wonder if all those other family’s with be ‘grandfathered in’ to that law so they will not be deported?

That however does not help the ones that planned to retire and now see that their plans have been altered if not even shattered for some. And for those individuals that were able, like myself, to set up a bank account prior to the move to Ireland, what happens to us. Ireland was nice enough to let me set up my bank account ( in 2013) when I told them I would be retiring in Ireland. Now that retirement age has come, I cannot retire without that annual income of $50,000 per person annually. Yet you have a have some money in a bank account in Ireland and I cannot retire without that income amount. My, like maybe others, bank account may not even be close to that $50,000.00, but it is my money. Sure I can take it out of the account, but that is not why I started the account in the first place. Can that information not be proof that I will be paying my debts while living in Ireland and not reply on the Irish government?

At present, we all know the unrest and the unsettled immigrants all over the world. The governments of all countries are dealing with an enormous amount of responsibility to the people of their country and yet they also feel a responsibility to human kind. History, has shown us that Irish Immigrants have relocated to American, Canada , and Australia through the years. My family came over during the great potato famine, for example. I know living in American that we have a great many Irish Immigrants at present day, along with young people continuing their studies abroad in the states. It is a good relationship and been fruitful for all those associated with the transitions. I, for one, want to continue with the good relationship on the government levels, but as an individual I would like more answers and need to understand how one can live by the law that seems unobtainable in reality for most of the average retires.

I am trying my best to get this issue out to the public eye and keep it going so that maybe when this law is reviewed in Parliament it will have enough backing to maybe change.

In closing, please keep this going, and even contact me if you have any more questions. I am not letting this issue fall by the wayside, for this is my retirement plan. I like others did not work all these years to see that my dreams maybe die due to something that makes me wonder where they ever came up with that dollar figure! I know, like the Irish retiree, the average American is not rich and our retirement income is equal to what the Irish retiree has for income. Knowing this, does it seem fair to require only the rich to retire in Ireland? What is too happened to individuals that want to retire in Ireland for they want to go back to their heritage? How does one answers those that have a love for a country, want to retire there and would be an asset to the country because we love it? Can we not be acceptance as affluent part of Ireland since we have an income and will not be living ‘on the dole’, no matter what our income?

I could go on and on with questions concerning this issue wanting answers more than anything. Please keep this issue going in any manner possible: newspaper, radio, twitter, Facebook and emails. Maybe if we are heard in a large number others will listen to at least give us answers we need to know. For all those that dream of having their Golden years on the Emerald Isle, I for one will not give up to follow my dream. How about you?

Thank you sincerely,

Elthea Stiegman
Email:

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pacnwboonies
1/9/2016 13:58 EST

Wow, what an eye opener and, indeed a shock this all is. We too have been planning a move to Ireland within the next nine months. We were in final stages and thought we were prepared after much research and trips there to confirm our findings and have friends also help tie it all up. After doing another google to ensure we were doing everything right, this site came up. Thank goodness it did. We are still going to go ahead with our plans and move over, but now assuming we will be in "visitor status" for years, if we even get accepted, which we do not have faith in at this time. We will take the risk, meaning, selling our home and belongings here, and proceed with the plans to move to County Donegal. Please count us in the group trying to change this law. We will do what we can to assist. Spectacular job to those of you that have done so much already. Elthea, I will be emailing you shortly. Dave, please continue forth with your plans to fight this law and go public with it. Thank you both for all that you have done so far in this fight.
Anne and Gene

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hereineir
1/13/2016 09:01 EST

Reading all of your messages, I find that I am not alone in my situation. I came to Ireland to retire in May 2015. I did not receive my answer from INIS until 4 days ago, Jan 9, 2016. I have until Feb 6 to prove to INIS that I have left the State. I am renting so I don't have the home ownership woes that Dave had, but I am nicely and comfortably settled in a beautiful home. I was given the same reasons as everyone else for denial.... annual income not sufficient, savings not sufficient ($52k). I was told there is no appeal process and don't know where to go from here. The Garda Immigration officer who I've been working with is as gobsmacked as I am. She was quite adamant that as long as my application to remain was pending, I would not be considered "illegally resident". I had major surgery last summer and spent two months in hospital without one red cent coming from the State, all covered by private Irish health insurance. Where do I go from here? I have less than three weeks. Can I just go to N Ire for a few weeks, then re-enter and start over? Thanks for any help... I'm in shock and panic mode.

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MarianneB
1/13/2016 10:53 EST

I am very sorry for the predicament you are in. I had a similar situation back in 2014., but was given only 2 weeks to leave. This was before the annual income was even raised. I had savings, insurance, and an annual income, but was told I did not have enough "bulk savings" - no dollar amount given.

I chose to return to the US in order to comply with the order (and have my passport stamped), but then planned to carry on with my travels. First, to visit the UK as a tourist for up to the allowed 6 months, then move on to France and apply for residency there (under a similar visa category as the one in Ireland.) I stayed in the US, visiting family for 10 days, then flew to Edinburgh to srart my travels. When I arrived at Immigration in the UK, they searched my luggage and found my residency rejection letter from the Irish Immigration service. They were convinced I was trying to enter the UK to the "pond hop" or illegally enter Ireland, as you can cross from the UK to Eire via ferry without showing your passport. I had absolutely no intention of returning to Ireland, as I was quite angry at the time. After 7 hours of interrogation (and, it truly was), I was rejected entry into the UK and placed on a plane the next morning back to the US.

I had an entire travel itinerary of all the places I would be staying in the UK as well as a train ticket to France severl months later, but no matter. I attemtped to get help from a UK solicitor at the time, but they only take criminal cases and I was told to contact them at a later date. Looking back, I believe it was a bored UK Immigration officer who had control issues & wanted to assert them.

My reason for bringing all of this up is your comment about about the possibility of going to Northern Ireland, then re-entering Eire. This is only my personal opinion, but there are no border controls to pass through on either side, so you would not have evidence you left Ireland as required and I anticipate you would not be able to restart the process because you have already received the decision (unless your financial situation has changed or the rules changed.)

Some people do just stay illegally, but I would never have been able to do that for a variety of my own reasons. Some very serious ones, like would my Irish health & auto insurance remain valid if I needed them? But also,,I had my pets with me & if I ever had to fly back to the US in an emergency (i.e. elderly parents), I wouldn't be allowed back in to retrieve them.

I was on my own and quite shocked at the time. I needed to work quickly to get my pets relocated back to the US in 2 weeks and sell items I had purchased, (I had a friend sell my car later, thank goodness). I wish I had the forethought to do a PR campaign, as Dave & Co did and thankfully were successful in staying. Moving (and then returning -my decision took 9 months) was a significant financial burden, especially since I had sold everything & had the added cost of shipping my pets over & back. I had researched the move for over a year & would never have moved if I didn't feel confident I had the financial resources to fulfill the requirements. It was a huge disappointment.

At the time I was expelled back to the US from the UK, my elderly Mom became quite ill and needed watching over which I have done for the past 18 months (and couldn't have from Ireland or France). She passed away recently & I am so glad I was here for her. Also, unplanned but happily, I met a lovely man in Montana (a Frenchman, no less) and after we enjoy our time in Montana, we will make our way back to his native France. So, for me, it did seem to work out for the better.

Though this will likely not seem like any consolation at all at the moment, as you are in crisis mode as I was, but I do hope things work out for you. At the time, I never imagined they would, but they did. I enjoyed my time in Ireland, but am still angry that they are not upfront about who they really want to settle in their country (the wealthy). Why not allow people to apply before they move, so there is no financial expense? It really is outrageous, the money I spent i their country for 9 months, just to be rejected. But, that is their concern now, not mine.

I do wish you good luck!

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hereineir
1/13/2016 11:53 EST

Thanks so much for your reply. So very glad that your situation worked out so well. In order to provide proof to INIS that I left the State (by going to NI) I intended to send them hotel, restaurant and petrol receipts. I don't know if that will be enough, but, like you, I'm so disgusted with the process, I'm not even sure I want to go back to ROI. I would, however, like to explore the UK and don't want to mess that up. Good to know about the luggage search and what NOT to have in there. Unbelievable.... Ciad Mile Failte my a$$!! I've spent literally thousands of euro, as I'm sure we all did, in local shops and Irish based businesses and never taken a penny from the State. I don't get it.... Thanks again!

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dave8408e
1/13/2016 12:39 EST

Go straight to your local TD and Enda Kenny's office TOMORROW. Have a one page (repeat: ONE PAGE) synopsis of your situation and detail how you can afford to live in Ireland without needing €50K a year. Try and get a face-to-face with the TD, ASAP. If you don't get a positive response (doubtful) plan on a media blitz. This nonsense has got to stop!!!

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Mellis5910
1/13/2016 15:44 EST

Marianne, I remember when you went through this ordeal, it was truly awful. I'm so sorry to hear of your mother's passing but glad to hear things did work out for you eventually. There is a petition calling for the end of the 50K policy which I signed, I urge others to do so, too. Here's the link: https://www.change.org/p/anne-anderson-ambassador-of-ireland-to-the-united-states-of-america-let-americans-retire-in-ireland?recruiter=438217842&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=share_email_responsive

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ihoney
1/16/2016 17:05 EST

Thank you very much for your informative message. My husband and I were planning to go to Ireland for a year and visit other European countries while there. We do not want to stay beyond the year though any questions asked of INIS have been met with the 50K euros pp retirement option, which is a wee bit over our pensions and we don't want to stay over the year. Are you aware of any option available to us as we meet the other Permission to Remain requirements.

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dave8408e
1/16/2016 18:52 EST

I can't think of a practical solution other than come for 3 months, get an extension for another 3 (highly likely) and then move to another EU state for the balance of your year, since you plan on travelling. The problem is that any time you cross the border, your existing visitor stamp becomes void, and you're at the mercy of the Immigration Man as to whether you'll be readmitted into the country. You might be turned away, or only given 30 days, or ??? Crap shoot. That goes for any EU country AFIK, they all follow essentially the same rules.

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Buzyizzzy
1/17/2016 02:42 EST

Come to the UK:) We'd love to have some financially independent immigrants:) it would make a very pleasant change. Cornwall is almost the same as Ireland, the only difference is the property prices are higher.

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DonieHoran
1/17/2016 04:06 EST

Hey Busy Lizzy - stop poaching our retirees !!
I am only joking of course - probably not a bad idea. Cornwall sounds lovely - might become an Expat there myself !!

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DonieHoran
1/17/2016 04:06 EST

Hey Busy Lizzy - stop poaching our retirees !!
I am only joking of course - probably not a bad idea. Cornwall sounds lovely - might become an Expat there myself !!

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FlowerFairy
1/17/2016 05:18 EST

Ha ha! I certainly don't understand the Irish Govt's thinking on this. It is a mystery to me. Busy Lizzie is correct.

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ihoney
1/17/2016 07:21 EST

I'll put Cornwall on our list! We would like a location where my husband can golf pretty much year round and I can wear a sweater much of the year.

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FlowerFairy
1/17/2016 09:34 EST

North Tenerife?

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Puckboy99
1/17/2016 10:51 EST

I haven't read the entire thread (but will !).....do these rules apply to those that hold Irish citizenship ?

I have dual citizenship & although I have no immediate plans to move/retire, it's nice to have options.

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Puckboy99
1/17/2016 10:57 EST

Is the real Cornwall as......quirky.....as portrayed in the tv show "Don Martin" (which I love !). :-)

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Mellis5910
1/17/2016 14:49 EST

No, Puckboy it does not apply to those who hold dual citizenship. Just non EU citizens looking to live in Ireland.

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Puckboy99
1/17/2016 15:39 EST

Thank you Melissa !

I finally read everything & although very informative, I truly feel for everyone who's had such traumatic experiences in their search for happiness.

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mmccrane
1/18/2016 01:16 EST

Buzyizzzy-
We have traveled Ireland and England and both are incredible from many perspectives. I understand Cornwall offers great weather and is also a very popular summer vacation spot. How does the application process compare to becoming a British citizen versus Ireland? My wife and I are both USA citizens of Irish decsent and have followed the incredible difficulties of moving to Ireland with the intent of staying and/or applying for Irish citizenship.
We are very open to England and all it's wonder.
Cheers,
Michael

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Mellis5910
1/18/2016 01:26 EST

It is terribly sad, when you think of the lives disrupted and hopes dashed...made worse by the fact that these financial requirements were not made clear before people made the move...there is a petition on this thread asking Ireland to take another look at the policy...I urge everyone to sign it.

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hereineir
1/18/2016 06:33 EST

If you have been "requested" to leave Ireland by INIS, you must leave the entire EU, then you would be able to return as a visitor and hopefully be granted UP TO 180 days if you land in the UK, or UP TO 90 days if you land in Ireland. I stress the UP TO because I was never granted 90 days to stay in Ireland. My initial permission to remain was only 6 weeks. I made the mistake of telling the officer that I intended to retire to Ireland, because I was so confident due to all of the research I had done, speaking to Irish Embassy in the states, having a good pension and over $50k in savings. Plus, I couldn't imagine that Ireland would not want me as much as I wanted her! I have lots of experience with the medical system here with private Irish medical insurance. If you have any questions about the medical care, hospitals, prescriptions, etc., just ask!

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Mellis5910
1/18/2016 13:23 EST

I am VERY interested to tap into your knowledge base on the Irish health care system, Hereineir, Please share your thoughts as to costs and care levels.

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hereineir
1/18/2016 14:10 EST

Mellis5910, my monthly premium for my major medical health insurance is a little over E100/mo., which I think is very reasonable. Being major medical only, it does nothing to defray costs for everyday care with a GP, prescriptions, etc.. I unexpectedly had to have open heart surgery last summer and ended up spending two months in the hospital post surgical. I have never seen a bill for the stay, so I can't tell you what the cost for all of that might have been, but I can imagine quite a chunk. The care was very similar to what I have experienced in the US, Seattle area. In some respects better than US, in others, not so much. The nurses and nursing assistants are the same as in the US... some fantastic, others not. On some floors there were serious staffing issues, equipment like blood pressure monitors in short supply, but were well staffed and very high tech in other areas. The consultant was very good in my opinion as was the surgeon. Btw, doctors are referred to as "consultants" but addressed as "Dr.", and surgeons are called "Mr". I was in CUH in Cork, and had a private room the entire time. It was ensuite and kept spotless. The food is horrendous both nutritionally and in taste. On the cardiac ward, a common supper, which is referred to as "tea" was bacon and sausage with potatoes. Thankfully, my daughter came from the US and spent 6 weeks here and brought food in for me. One of the very nice things available is housing for family members of a critically ill patient, living out of the area, for "donation". It has a full kitchen, washer and dryer and is very close to CUH. It's run by the Catholic Church, and the rooms are just like a hotel. I don't think I would have survived without my daughter being able to cook for me and do my laundry. Usually, you do not wear hospital gowns, but you bring your own pjs or whatever you want to lay around in, from home. This means that you have to have someone do the laundry for you. If you are basically alone in the country as I am, I would have had a real problem with laundry. Let me know if I haven't covered something .....

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Mellis5910
1/18/2016 15:36 EST

Hereineir, thank you SO much for your very thorough account of your experiences in hospital. Your information is so helpful and encouraging. I'd heard some rather off-putting stories about the health system there and wondered how much private insurance would cost. My husband and I are hoping to be in Cork by the summer, hope to buy you a cup of tea when we arrive to say thanks. :)

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hereineir
1/18/2016 16:46 EST

If the State will let me remain that long, I'd be honored to meet you.

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Mellis5910
1/19/2016 19:30 EST

The best of luck to you. See you in Cork.

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pacnwboonies
1/19/2016 20:02 EST

Yes indeed, thank you for your information. A friend in Letterkenny emailed me and said this Morning the local Radiostation (iHighland Radio) on their 'Shaun Doherty Show' had a woman (American in AZ) on about the new law requiring non Citizen Americans (presumably) to have some extraordinary amounts of money in Order to live here. She sent documents and proof of all she needed to no avail. INIS is holding firm on meeting the criteria with her. I would like to know more specifics so emailed the show and heard from the producer asking how to contact this woman. We shall see what happens. I have also sent snail mail to both the Irish Ambassador and the American Ambassador voicing the concern over the high criteria, especially, the three combined (50,000 euro per person, amt in savings equivalent to purchasing a home in Ireland, and purchasing high full comprehensive health care that is equivalent to VH1 Plan D. I notice that INIS has updated their information on their site at the Stamp 0 spot. Not sure what to think.

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dave8408e
1/20/2016 18:53 EST

Today's Irish Central (20 Jan. 2016) has info on an Irish property fair coming to New York. No mention of the restrictive INIS regulations for non-EU citizens. Forum readers may want to post comments on same to Irish Central's feedback column on the article. I did!

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Sherryh2006
1/21/2016 06:45 EST

Pacnwboonies do you have a link to the updated info? My husband and I would still love to be able to retire in Ireland. He will be retiring within the next six months or so from his current position. We've been so discouraged about the requirements, but I've been keeping up with current posts on here. I'm hoping and praying they will change it. ?? thanks!!

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Sherryh2006
1/21/2016 06:52 EST

Hereineir I have a question about the medical. Do you know anything about Tricare which is a military active/retired persons medical being accepted there for care and prescriptions? Thank you!

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ihoney
1/21/2016 08:59 EST

My husband is retired military as well. From what I've learned. Tricare Standard is your coverage there. DEERS will provide a letter of coverage.

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Sherryh2006
1/21/2016 09:31 EST

Ihoney that's great! Thank you! Are you all living in Ireland, or one of the hopefuls like us???

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pacnwboonies
1/21/2016 11:47 EST

Sherryh2006, hi, the link to INIS is http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/inis/pages/immigration%20information and from there over on left scroll down to Stamp 0. Should be able to keep updated from there. I hope I give correct avenue to get to the link.

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hereineir
1/21/2016 14:49 EST

Sherryh2006, I have only my personal experiences ... sorry, know zero re:military.

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ihoney
1/22/2016 09:18 EST

We were among the hopeful, but now may be looking elsewhere. We wanted a year abroad with golf. Appears only can do this in Sweden, Italy or France.

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Buzyizzzy
2/2/2016 15:28 EST

Going on last year's summer here, you can wear a jumper all year round here, lol. Oh and there are loooooads of golf courses too.
You'd be welcome here, we don't mind who lives here :) have my house
Oh, small point guys, it's Buzyizzy, not Busy Lizzie lololol

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Buzyizzzy
2/2/2016 15:36 EST

In places, yes, very much so. Every village and town has a very strong community spirit, which is good and bad.
Good example is that my children used to bus it to school for,the couple of,years before they went to uni. Then they finished uni three years later and eventually secured jobs in nearby towns. Anyway, yesterday, my daughter's first day at work, she walks onto the bus and the driver says to her, "hello, adult ticket is it now?" Lol he remembered her from all those years ago! It's lovely down here if we have a decent summer, fabulous beaches and beautiful countryside and moors :)

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Buzyizzzy
2/2/2016 15:37 EST

In places, yes, very much so. Every village and town has a very strong community spirit, which is good and bad.
Good example is that my children used to bus it to school for,the couple of,years before they went to uni. Then they finished uni three years later and eventually secured jobs in nearby towns. Anyway, yesterday, my daughter's first day at work, she walks onto the bus and the driver says to her, "hello, adult ticket is it now?" Lol he remembered her from all those years ago! It's lovely down here if we have a decent summer, fabulous beaches and beautiful countryside and moors :)

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Buzyizzzy
2/2/2016 15:40 EST

Hi Michael,
Not sure how to emigrate to UK, but I can do some digging for,you with pleasure.
Buzyizzy

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mmccrane
2/2/2016 22:54 EST

Buzyizzzy - our preference is to move to Ireland but there are many obstacles to that if you are a USA citizen only as my wife and I are. The best option is to transfer from the USA to Ireland with your employer from what I have gathered. If that is not an option, you can risk moving there and then look for work if one requires employment to sustain. Risky unless your skills are hard to find and in high demand.
England is also very appealing so that is why I asked if it's less constrained on all the rules to do so as a USA citizen.

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Buzyizzzy
2/7/2016 14:26 EST

A little lighthearted reading for you....
http://www.uk-yankee.com/guide/expat-guide-uk/moving-uk

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MarianneB
2/7/2016 15:19 EST

I don't know this publication, but it read to me to be quite condescending as if we are all idiots. I already knew the rules regarding the UK, though others may not. It was interesting to note, with all their condescension, that many of their facts about moving pets to the UK were completely incorrect - I know because the guidelines are the same as they are for Eire/Ireland and I moved 1 dog and 2 cats there in 2013. Would be great if they had their facts straight. Was going to comment, but the comment section was closed.

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Buzyizzzy
2/7/2016 18:09 EST

Hi
You need to read all the sections, including the things you should have known before you moved to the UK! Personally I found it hilarious, but then we have a great sense of fun here :)

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kldelk
2/8/2016 08:56 EST

Dave, my son and I have had the same problem but have not yet received "the letter" however we have our neighbors working on a petition and we are in the midst of an election campaign here so we are fighting it all and hoping we can win permission to stay. I would like to get in touch with you via email? telephone? to better understand what happened to you, where you are in the process, etc. would you email me at ? thanks

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kldelk
2/8/2016 10:12 EST

I would love to know where the petition is to sign asking Ireland to reconsider it's immigration issue for non EU nationals. I am an American citizen and I retired here having done the same as all the others--i..e., thoroughly researched --wrote MANY times to INIS and NEVER was I advised about the 50,000 Euros per year per person, etc. My neighbors are now fighting for me to remain but my hopes are not high. Any petition or movement to fight this would be welcomed ==thank you

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kldelk
2/8/2016 11:30 EST

pacnwboonies: Hey there! I am the American lady who was on the Shaun Doherty show on the 19th of January--I'm SOOO sorry I didn't find this website earlier--I mean a LOT earlier than now! We are in the same boat as many and I have been in touch with many of the local politicians--I now have a letter from the INIS saying they will "revew" my case and we should send them our "financials". I pointed out that I ALREADY sent my financials and they have not changed but I did send them again. It is not MY financials that need to be reviewed again, it is the policy. My local neighbors are furious with this policy--many had never heard of it and we (my adult son and I) had researched many places when I was coming over in late 2014--INIS never gave me anything but a referral to their website which only said I couldn't get long term residency until I'd lived here 5 years and that for permission to remain, I just needed a valid passport and proof that I could support myself. Well, obviously THAT was a joke.

So we now have our local community who will be doing petitions and are going to do all they can to get INIS to reconsider and let us stay but with all that has gone on for others, I'm not sure this will work. Everyone seems to agree the policy needs to be reviewed as 50,000 Euros per year per person PLUS enough money to purchase a home per person (and the home you already bought is useless for this calculation) is way above what is needed. We too had medical and hospitalization--we live here debt free and can live quite comfortably but. . .if we must go back we will lose virtually all our life savings which was bundled up into this --my forever home--and will have to go into debt to purchase another home in the states.

I live in dread of "the letter" --i.e., "you have a week to get out or else. ." and we too have pets as one of the contributors mentioned so that complicates the move as well.

I welcome all comments and advise--it seems that Dave finally got it to work and who knows if we will or not but I guess my question is, for how long will you be granted permission to stay? I don't think I can go through this every year if that is what happens so. . I'm not sure how far the government well go--Irish friends who have gone the other way--that is lived in the states--said when they went they were given green residence cards for 10 years and to be honest I think that is what I want here--if it is a year to year "qualification" I think it is too much emotional stress for me to deal with.

Anyway, I can be reached at and have been fascinated by the discussion--by the way, we too have tried to make this public through media, etc. but have gotten no response other than the radio show here in Donegal--

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pacnwboonies
2/8/2016 11:34 EST

To all in this forum. What could be quite helpful is to know what income and savings is being denied, or accepted. I am curious if a pattern of any type and would help immensely in what we truly could expect with our income and savings when going over to try and apply ourselves. Anyone willing to start indicating what their yearly income is and how much is in savings that was denied or accepted? What health insurance coverage they had/have also since INIS site indicates have to have the full comprehensive, but have people been accepted on less coverage? And, very curious if reviewers have a pattern. Some reviewers deny more than other reviewers--I am thinking, as I do get inconsistencies in emails from INIS when I ask questions. Some are much more flexible and one is very adamant that criteria be met exactly. Should this information be done at this forum or not? Thoughts people?

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kldelk
2/8/2016 12:47 EST

to pacnwboonies: we purchased a home for 65,000 Euros--our income together (my son and I ) is about 40,000 Euros annually and we are debt free--we do have some savings as well but not enough to "buy another home". We were told that we EACH needed to earn 50,000 Euros per year and that we EACH needed to have enough money in a regular savings account (this can't be a long term account or investment) of enough money to "buy another residence."

Now who would keep that much money in a regular savings account--you might as well stuff it under your mattress! Also we were told that our having bought a house and paid cash was not considered in the equation.


We have also heard of a couple who purchased a home in County Kerry and paid 250.000 Euros and had at least another 50,000 Euros in savings and they were told to go home. Now I have not made contact with these people so this is a third hand report but everything else I have seen indicates that your purchase of a home does not give you any assistance in meeting the financial requirements.

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pacnwboonies
2/8/2016 13:51 EST

Thank you! That is the information was hoping for. How outrageous that each person also has to have an amount in savings equivalent to purchasing a home (what amount would that be though when homes vary in cost!). I do worry also that INIS is concerned about the fluctuation rate of dollar to euros. Is INIS worried about when the rate drops to .74 and lower, as it has been .66 some time back. Right now people of independent means are doing great with the rate being so even. Maybe INIS is having the 50,000 criteria worrying that if we fall too far below that when the rate drops, we could then become a burden. Am I making sense? Thoughts from anyone? I wonder if retirees have ended up needing assistance in the years past when the rate dropped so low to our dollar. Thoughts? Trying to figure out how to fight some of these thoughts INIS could have in regards to the amount they want us to have and why. We are not over to Ireland yet, but in our final stages before trying. My husband would be, roughly, $43,000 and me only $24,000. Only $35,000 in savings but $300,000ish is what our home and property will sell for so purchase a home in Ireland and put rest in savings. How many of you there in Ireland are couples being denied also and what is the income and savings for each of you being denied. No consideration is being given to combined income and savings for a couple, right? I am guessing not. Again, thank you for sharing your financial information as it helps very much put a larger picture together. After all, that is what all this is about--denial due to yearly income and savings. What a wonderful forum this is and quite a find for all of us so interested and such a desire for living in Ireland. Coming together in a group and getting our Irish friends to be heard will help, it just has to. Let us see what happens with the possible new government after the upcoming elections. This issue is being worked on--there is an outcry and we are being heard!

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kldelk
2/8/2016 14:08 EST

Please be advised "ownership of property in the State does not give you an automatic right to residence in the State." That comes from our letter denying our application. The fact that you own your home outright and live debt free is also NOT considered in the equation.

The price of the house seems irrlevant as we heard of a couple who spent 250,000 Euros and were still turned away so I WOULD NOT MOVE TO IRELAND as long as these conditions exist. Maybe the government will actually review this policy which we hear is happening, however, in 2009 the government promised to invest about 5 million euros in a flood abatement program in Co. Cork, particularly in Bandon. come 2015 and Bandon flooded again--with shop owners losing thousands of dollars . Nothing had been done after that 2009 promise so just because the government says it is looking at something certainly doesn't mean anything will happen in our lifetime!

I do not believe the government has really taken into account the amount of income it will lose when it kicks our or refused to allow the American retirees to come. We are all trying to make them think about that but I don't know how far we have gotten if anywhere so my advice is DO NOT MOVE TO IRELAND any time soon UNLESS YOU HAVE A REGISTERED LETTER IN WRITING FROM THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE SAYING YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE THERE FOR . . . .whatever--The web site is confusing --the immigration officers are not informed of the policy that has come down from Dublin so be advised.

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Buzyizzzy
2/9/2016 02:26 EST

I feel so so sorry for you. Come to Cornwall:) we'd love to have you :D

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kldelk
2/9/2016 03:51 EST

thanks, I think I'd love Cornwall but don't think I could afford it!!

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DonieHoran
2/9/2016 04:44 EST

Hey - Buzyizzzy - you are poaching our inward immigrants again !!
I am only joking of course & I sincerely hope that where ever people find contentment & happiness well that's absolutely great. Maybe some day we might encourage you over to the Emerald Isle.!

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Mellis5910
2/12/2016 16:20 EST

I've been following this thread for months now and think we should all pool our information and see what can be done about this situation.

Home to Stay Ireland (HSI) is intended for US citizens who are not currently holding an EU Passport and who are currently residing in Ireland or soon to be departing to take residency in the Republic of Ireland.
HSI intends to bring together Americans with a dedicated group of Irish citizens & volunteers who wish to challenge the new financial requirements of:
>>>>>>50K EURO/PER ANNUM<<<<<<
Instituted by the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Services (INIS).
U.S. citizens need to fully understand the repercussions of their decision to move and/or live in Ireland with this new regulation.

Our goal is to pool information, share knowledge and access resources (from both sides of the pond) which will offer support to those MOST AFFECTED by the new and unrealistic financial regulations.

We need you to gather the clan. Please help us find all the individuals who are currently in dire need of our assistance. Our volunteers will represent you as a UNIFIED body to key ambassadors, political leaders and the media.

Home to Stay Ireland is a closed group, where members can feel comfortable to share their stories and helpful findings. All information exchanged on this forum will remain confidential.

If you would like to join in the discussion, please email Melissa Martin Ellis at

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dave8408e
2/17/2016 09:55 EST

In my never-ending search to find out the WHY behind the new €50K/year rule, I've at least tracked down (I think) the people responsible within INIS for creating the change -- and if they can create it, they can perhaps be shown it ought to be eliminated.

http://whodoeswhat.gov.ie/branch/justice/INIS/michael-kirrane/158/

The link will take you to “Who does what” in Irish government, a great bookmark if I ever saw one, and right to the page introducing us to our (I hate to say this) adversaries.

Ladies and gentlemen, please meet Michael Kirrane, Director General of INIS, with his job description AND EMAIL ADDRESS.

Right below, you’ll find a list of eight mid-level bureaucrats that report to Kirrane, the most important of all being Garrett Byrne and Kevin O’Sullivan. As with Kirrane, their job descriptions and email addresses are shown by clicking on their names. It sure looks like these are the guys responsible.

Info worth holding on to, me thinks...

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cinziaclc
2/22/2016 19:07 EST

The petition is here:
https://www.change.org/p/fergus-odowd-td-in-ireland-let-americans-retire-in-ireland?recruiter=438217842&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=share_email_responsive

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Buzyizzzy
2/23/2016 02:30 EST

Is this €50k rule for all non EU people hoping to emigrate to Ireland? I assume so. Then what happens in June when the UK votes whether to stay in the EU or not? It's going to be a close call and if Boris has his way, we shall be out and I shall be unable to afford to move. I'm going to have to put my plans on hold for four months.

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kldelk
2/23/2016 02:36 EST

at this point I would definitely put your plans on hold--at least with regard to moving to Ireland or the UK. The UK has also begun this 50,000 pound limit according to something we saw recently so I think waiting is prudent. If the UK pulls out of the EU that will presumably set a lot of economic balls in free fall and you will be safer to wait til everything falls into place.

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Buzyizzzy
2/23/2016 02:45 EST

I am British, moving from the UK. Sorry I thought that was obvious from my reply.

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kldelk
2/23/2016 02:50 EST

oh, sorry--I think this 50,000 euro rule is for non eeu members?

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kldelk
2/23/2016 02:55 EST

sorry, I think it is too early and I'm still half asleep--anyway, maybe it is better to move before the june vote??? I have no idea how this is going to impact anyone but then Ireland implemented this rule and applied it to people who came after they put it in place! If you were to move now as an EU member I guess there is nothing to guarantee that Ireland won't apply this to you if the UK pulls out of the EU even if you have moved here while you are still an EU member? That is the problem with the immigration stuff--it is all too unclear ==

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ypatton
2/25/2016 19:43 EST

Omg... I can't believe now that my daughter and I have decided to move to Ireland we have to make more money!! We have been planning this since my husband passed away.

My husband is from Donegal but had been working and living in the US since 1982. He retired in May 2011 and we decided to move to Ireland to live in his home town where all the family lives. He died Aug 2011 and his wish was to be buried with his parents in the family plot in Ireland. Some day I will also be there. Was not cheap and used the savings for the house to cover funeral expenses in US and Ireland.

My daughter and I travel each summer to visit him. She is a dual citizen but I am not. She is in high school and we love Ireland and want to be close to her dad. I do have more than enough in my pension tand income from SS and I work part time from home and can work anywhere I can get online. My daughter wants to attend college after high school in Ireland.

I wonder because I am a widow of an Irish citizen with a daughter of dual citizenship, if the income amount would still apply? Obviously as a teenager she would not be making money so I wonder how that would work. I am not retired but do receive SS benefits. Any ideas on this or who to ask? I would probably get different answers from different departments.

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ypatton
2/25/2016 20:49 EST

Omg... I can't believe now that my daughter and I have decided to move to Ireland we have to make more money!! We have been planning this since my husband passed away.

My husband is from Donegal but had been working and living in the US since 1982. He retired in May 2011 and we decided to move to Ireland to live in his home town where all the family lives. He died Aug 2011 and his wish was to be buried with his parents in the family plot in Ireland. Some day I will also be there. Was not cheap and used the savings for the house to cover funeral expenses in US and Ireland.

My daughter and I travel each summer to visit him. She is a dual citizen but I am not. She is in high school and we love Ireland and want to be close to her dad. I do have more than enough in my pension tand income from SS and I work part time from home and can work anywhere I can get online. My daughter wants to attend college after high school in Ireland.

I wonder because I am a widow of an Irish citizen with a daughter of dual citizenship, if the income amount would still apply? Obviously as a teenager she would not be making money so I wonder how that would work. I am not retired but do receive SS benefits. Any ideas on this or who to ask? I would probably get different answers from different departments.

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dave8408e
2/26/2016 02:01 EST

ypatton -- Your situation is so unique that if you are serious about living in Ireland you should consult an Irish immigration lawyer for advice. Your rights as a widow of an Irish national may be different than a typical non-EU retiree, and there may be some precedent that won't be found using a Google search. Good luck!

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kldelk
2/26/2016 02:54 EST

I agree with Dave that your situation is different than most of us. I also have an email address that gets you right to a "person" at the INIS and perhaps he will answer you with something that is "correct" or at least "official"
hopefully that will get you at least to the right place to ask the questions. good luck

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kldelk
2/26/2016 02:54 EST

I agree with Dave that your situation is different than most of us. I also have an email address that gets you right to a "person" at the INIS and perhaps he will answer you with something that is "correct" or at least "official"
hopefully that will get you at least to the right place to ask the questions. good luck

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ypatton
2/26/2016 13:57 EST

Kl deli - thank you for the email. I did send an email this morning and he did reply. Pleasant but not happy about me having his email address. He had the impression (don't know how) that the email address was being used for making applications. I never said that or asked for an application.

I might qualify under a number of different schemes and said to submit all documents by post to INIS and gave me the address.

He did end it by saying:

"our retiree scheme is currently under review. This review should be finalized soon."

So, hopefully the rules will change back or to something more reasonable than it is now.

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kldelk
2/26/2016 17:30 EST

thanks for the update and I guess if he didn't want his email used, he shouldn't have sent me an email! oh, well. . . glad you got some response though.

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dave8408e
2/26/2016 18:57 EST

Hehehe... sure, he doesn't want the great unwashed writing him. It took some searching on my part to find out who he is in the INIS food chain. From a gov't website that people don't ordinarily visit: "Garrett is responsible, at Principal Officer level, for a number of areas which process applications from individuals seeking Residence in the State including EU Free Movement and general immigration schemes." He'd much prefer you write snail mail letters to his underlings, as ordinarily you can't even email INIS section 2 without already having applied for residency and been issued a registration number. :0)

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kldelk
2/27/2016 02:30 EST

that is so cool!! I can't believe he wrote me personally so now he is out there in
plain sight" of all of us poor peons whose lives he controls!!! And you are right, Dave, in all the time I was trying to contact these people until I got a "letter" I had no names of anyone so the emails, letters just went into the great unknown. Now we have a NAME. Maybe he is the guy we need to set up a meeting with to make your proposal! Welcome Retirees to Ireland! anyway, it is funny that he didn't want to get a personal email from someone asking questions--

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ChiChuck
2/29/2016 09:24 EST

I just took Ireland off my retirement list! Thanks for the info. sorry for your troubles!

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dave8408e
2/29/2016 09:42 EST

Don't give up on Ireland so soon! I and a lot of other people are determined to see the rules changed. Ireland is a wonderful place to live, their government just currently has some strange ideas about what it takes to live financially in their own country. We can fix that.

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kldelk
2/29/2016 10:17 EST

I don't blame you but please watch out for the UK, too. I think they are doing the same thing and it wasn't easy retiring there anyway from what i heard. If you are interested in Sun--check Splain and/or Portugal. Also, check out Ecuador--Cuenca is grand and I was planning on Cotacachi in the mountains--good expat communities there as well. You might find something you like that way--Spanish isn't too hard to pick up and many people speak English anyway! good luck!

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coronadorob89
2/29/2016 10:52 EST

Hello, devastating story for sure. Are you both registered Irish citizens?

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kldelk
2/29/2016 11:05 EST

No, I wish we were--that would help I"m sure

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kldelk
2/29/2016 11:08 EST

Dave is right, Ireland IS a wonderful country and the people are gorgeous! So friendly and welcoming. And many of us ARE still fighting this, but Ireland also doesn't do things too quickly so it doesn't hurt to explore other options so that when the time comes for your actual move, you have all the information about several places. Then you can make the best decision

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jnofarrell
3/18/2016 21:13 EST

THANK YOU for sharing all this.
Clearly, this is why Ireland is so underpopulated and yet desirable.
My dreams are dashed. I'll watch for hope. Best to you!!!

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Muddled
3/19/2016 09:40 EST

I suggest you do your research; Ireland is far from being "underpopulated"- it's in the midst of a long standing housing shortage.

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Muddled
3/19/2016 09:50 EST

This thread pertains to non-EU retirees living in (or interested in living in) the Repluc of Ireland. If you have EU citizenship you don't need to prove your financial situation in order to move here.

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dave8408e
3/19/2016 14:50 EST

So, Muddled suggested doing some research as he states Ireland in in the midst of "a long-standing housing shortage". So, I did some research. First, there are no accurate stats currently available from the Central Statistics Office as they're taken every five years, and the last survey was 2011. All media reports continue to report housing shortages in Dublin... but if one steps beyond the Pale and into the rest of the country, I think you'll see plenty of vacant housing available along with some 600 'ghost estates' still empty thanks to the bank crisis. I can point to my own town in western Ireland where at last count 24 percent of the housing was vacant, along with four estates that stand incomplete.
As for Ireland being 'underpopulated', well let's remember that this country once was home to 8.2 to 8.5 million people prior to 1841, compared to 6.4 million today. Genocide does lead to 'underpopulation', eh what?

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MarianneB
3/19/2016 22:45 EST

One of the main reasons for my choosing to relocate in 2013, after researching many countries for retirement, was just that - the availability of many homes to rent (outside the major cities) because of the boom/bust in Éire, The surplus of housing caused the rents to drop significantly and I was able to rent a very nice, modern cottage in the countryside, on 1 acre of land north of the city of Cork, for 1/2 the price I was paying for the same in the US (northwest Oregon). Other countries that were much less costly were all in the southern hemisphere, none of which were enticing to me. This was 3 years ago, of course, so I am unsure how/if the market has changed since then,

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mmccrane
3/19/2016 23:32 EST

Muddled:
How difficult is it for a US citizen to gain EU citizenship? My heritage is both Irish and Scottish. I have explored becoming a Irish citizen but don't meet the parents/grand parents Irish citizen requirements. If becoming a EU citizen is much less complicated perhaps that is the more fruitful path to be able to move to Ireland. This is the ultimate goal for my wife and I.

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hereineir
3/20/2016 17:49 EST

mmccrane, I don't think there's any such thing as an 'EU' citizen. You would have to go to a specific EU country (there are 26) and follow the respective citizenship rules. Each country is different. The UK's rules are a little more lax than Ireland, but you'd need £25,000 annual income, not euro, which is quite a bit more than $25,000. Spain has a fairly good retirees passport with less annual income required. I'm fairly certain most countries require 5 years residency minimum for citizenship.

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trkane71
3/22/2016 16:18 EST

I think the current population figures got reversed. If you check CIA fact book you will see estimated population to be about 4.8 million as of July 2015. This would be about 2 million less than posted (6.4).

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jnofarrell
3/22/2016 23:18 EST

Dear Everyone:
I lol that everyone corrects everyone on my pathetic post, because I long to live in Ireland, and Thank You All for doing that!
Honestly, it IS a lesser population than what I'm used to. And that is why we wish to be there.
We'll figure out immigration with time.
Thank you all, xoxoxoxoxo

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dave8408e
3/23/2016 09:38 EST

I included Northern Ireland in my population estimate.

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DebAckley
4/1/2016 18:22 EST

We have recently moved over from the USA...I have dual citizenship...we were in a local pub ( that we've frequented over the past 8 years or so), the barkeep told us that folks are holding on to their house, not renting them, and hoping the price will go up soon. Renting is different here...the place we are at has no rental agreement/lease like the states....luckily we have a wonderful landlord family. Good luck and cheers!

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FlowerFairy
4/2/2016 03:12 EST

Yes, our experience has been that each and every house we have tried to buy have been owned by overseas vendors who are all dreaming the Celtic Tiger will reappear. They paid too much during the CT days, refuse point blank to spend any more money to maintain their properties but refuse to negotiate even when one receives damning building surveys. Five offers, Four building surveys, still no home and still raining...we are out of here.

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Buzyizzzy
4/2/2016 04:00 EST

As an EU citizen, which I hopefully will remain beyond 23rd June, we are free to take up residency anywhere within the EU without any issues. However, this does not make us the equivalent of a United States of Europe! We are all very different countries from each other, the U.K being the soft touch! I do hope that Trump's comments regarding the UK and Europe have been taken with the pinch of salt they deserve. I am lucky as I am choose to remain British or have Irish citizenship as my father was Irish, but I shall review that once I am living there.
I take Flower Fairy's point regarding the properties and surveys. I had one carried out and it needed a fair bit doing to it. However, the vendors refused to budge and have since advertised their property as having had a perfect survey done on it, when the truth is far from that. I am now hoping to buy from a Brit who is selling their mother's house in Mayo. I think I will have more luck.

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FlowerFairy
4/2/2016 04:04 EST

Bottom line: Irish Real Estate is dysfunctional and the Govt is doing absolutely nothing to rectify the situation.

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Buzyizzzy
4/2/2016 04:13 EST

I don't think ours did a lot to help when the global recession hit, but somehow it's crawled out of the pit it was in. We saw all our equity disappear when we had to sell up and start all over again, but seven years on I am able to say I have bounced back without a hapless husband and shall be making the move to Ireland this summer. It makes me very sad that without help from their parents, very few young people are able to afford to even start on the property ladder here, whereas in Ireland they would be able to own their own little place.

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jmcbrg
4/3/2016 15:33 EST

Is anyone clear on how these laws would affect retiring to Ireland when one person in the couple has Irish Citizenship and the other is American? Married 10 years, this is something we have considered several times but now we are beginning to be concerned about the realities of these new regulations.

ps, new member mistake, I intended to post this into this thread and instead posted a new topic, not sure how to delete the "new topic" post...

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susie44
4/4/2016 12:19 EST

you shouldn't have a problem being married 10 years to an irish citizen. you can apply for citizenship after 3 years of marriage. i became a citizen before they changed the law, so i did not have to reside there to become one, but now i think you do. you will need to prove that you live together and a bunch of other stuff, but should be fairly easy.

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susie44
4/4/2016 13:28 EST

we are not retiring, but i am having a similar problem. my husband is irish born, and i became a citizen through marriage 10 years ago. i have a son from a previous relationship, who my husband has always treated as his own.
since my first time visiting there, we had planned on moving to ireland when my son did not need permission from his biological father (who is very difficult and has no existing relationship with my son). so we waited till he was 18. my husband adopted him then (you can adopt a stepchild over the age of 18 in my state). we thought that would do the trick... but ireland won't recognize the adoption as he was over 18, and they are saying he can't come with us unless he can be there on his own merit. meaning he would need to have some high skill job or be a student (which, by the way, student time does not count as residency time, and he would have to pay non-euu tuition in full with receipt in hand.... for a job visa, employers have to be able to prove that they tried to hire an irish person for the job first. they would also have to pay more than €30,000 a year). we have tried EVERYTHING.. and it is the same. there is no way to apply before actually living there and be guaranteed permission.

my husband's whole family lives in ireland. we go there every year. sometimes for months. my son considers my husbands family as his own since he has never known them not to be. we have a lot of friends there and have been a part of the community for a very long time.

everyone we have spoken to (and that is a LOT of places, letters, applications, advocates, immigration officers, TD's) tells us to just move over and go and see the local immigration officer upon our arrival. we are afraid to do that because of exactly what is happening in this thread.
it is amazing to me that they actually tell people to just move there and risk it, then give such little time to get out with no place to return to.

once you reside legally in ireland for 5 years (this is where the student time does no good) you can apply for citizenship. i am willing to bet this is why they are making it so difficult for retirees. because once you get citizenship, you are entitled to all medical benefits and rights.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/4/2016 13:46 EST

New to this forum. Regarding the new income rules for non-EU retirees, does anyone recommend and know of a good attorney? Would an attorney help with this issue or is it too new to have been thoroughly analyzed and challenged? My retirement plans are a few years away but I want to try and make sure I stay on track.

Also, has anyone looke dinto other migration schemes? I know that changes were recently made to certain immigration investment schemes and that Justice/INIS are looking at approving certain investment funds designed to meet such new immigration policies.

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proactiv
4/5/2016 13:20 EST

Hi Dave,
My wife and I have been following your story from the beginning. We're both U.S. citizens who love Ireland and have been there a number of times. We had planned on retiring and living in Ireland once I stop working here in the U.S. That's in about 4 1/2 years from now. We'll have an annual retirement income in the $50K range and a significant amount in investments.

Of course, we also want to see this INIS rule changed. Is there anything we can start doing now to help this situation? Calls? Letters? We are in Ireland about 3-4 weeks every year (this year we'll be there from 10/17 through 11/6). If it would help to have another voice in this matter, please let me know what we can do.

Best regards,
Paul

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dave8408e
4/5/2016 14:06 EST

Paul: Thanks for writing. Hold on to that dream of moving to Ireland; it was the biggest risk I've taken in my life, and has yielded the biggest reward. As for changing Stamp 0, we're stymied at this minute by a non-functioning Irish government as I result of an inconclusive recent election. There's hope in the recent admission by INIS that they're reviewing their policies, and the issue is gaining traction in Irish media, with several Americans being interviewed on Irish radio, and a second story appearing on IrishCentral. I am still fearful that though I was here before the €50K per person per annum rule and eventually granted a year's stay, INIS will again ask me to leave -- I have heard of this exact scenario being played out at this moment by another American. Change is hard, either by an American at a distance from Ireland, or by someone already in Ireland who, being a 'guest' can be asked to leave at any time, should he piss off the wrong bureaucrat. The best I can offer is to stay in touch, stay on top of the story, and stay in love with your dream.

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Meachair54
4/18/2016 19:14 EST

Hello Dave 84...e, just saw your reply on another topic , was wondering how your plight with remaining in Ireland and becoming a resident is coming along.......?

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dave8408e
4/19/2016 02:44 EST

Nothing new to report; we still have residency until the fall. Under the current regulations, we will never qualify for permanent residency or citizenship.

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hereineir
4/19/2016 11:22 EST

KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC - I'm in the same situation as Dave84, except that eventually he did receive permission to remain for one year. I have never received that permission, having been denied 2x, based on income and savings amounts. I have somehow managed to be here nearly a year now, but currently have to leave the State of Ireland by August. I have some tenuous political connections who have been working on reversing that order, but they haven't gotten very far due to the government instability right now. They've asked for another month since it seems that a co op government being formed is imminent. Failing that, I will see an immig solicitor to see if he can do anything. Dave and I have met several people going through this situation, and, sadly they've already left or are in the process of leaving. There have been no legal challenges made of which I'm aware, but we've been told many times by the Minister that the process is 'under review'. There have been several parliamentary questions asked by various TDs who received the 'under review' response. So, as Dave 84 has said, we are waiting for progress to be made in forming the new government, and for the completion of the review, then we'll see where it all ends up.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/19/2016 12:26 EST

Thanks hereineir for the response. Perhaps you would be kind enough to report back with the names of the solicitors you spoke with. I have found few with any free advice to offer so please keep that in mind. Most solicitors seem to insist on a consulting fee before speaking to you with any specificity (just one more critical difference between Ireland and the States) which is why I have not spoken to one yet.

Given the current status of the government, now would seem a good time to organize and petition for a change to this new policy. I do not know why we should wait for the INIS to review a policy that was the product of poor decision making as a tiger does not change its spots nor does a bureaucrat change his or her mind without feeling some political pressure. Are we sure who is on our side and who is not? Have any TD's or other politicians come out and publically stated their objection to this new rule? I wonder if an Irish immigration attorney would be willing to act as our lobbyist. I am willing to try and find one if enough people are
interested.

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pobauto
4/19/2016 13:24 EST

Have those of you who have been told to leave because of the new rules considered banding together as a group and engaging a solicitor? Together you might be able to afford it with a "Go Fund Me" page. Perhaps you could find a solicitor who woks exclusively with these kinds of immigration issues.
I wish you all the best of luck and I appreciate that you keep the rest of us informed.

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Meachair54
4/19/2016 16:44 EST

Hello Kev,Dave, and the other people in this situation, my question is do any of you have opportunity to get dual citizenship , to alleviate the problems you 're going through ? Best of luck to you all.

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dave8408e
4/19/2016 17:00 EST

Can't speak for Kev but in our case we are not eligible for citizenship, dual or otherwise. Stamp 0 does not provide a path to citizenship. If we had parents or grandparents from Ireland, then yes... but we don't, so we can't.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/19/2016 17:37 EST

I also cannot immigrate through ancestry. I am also still in U.S. and not ready to retire for a few years. I have looked into other means of migration such as through investment schemes. These schemes are ever-changing and some not even yet implemented. I do some work in U.S. immigration so I see how certain U.S. businesspeople with a vested financial interest in a successful immigration industry can lobby the U.S. Congress and the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. Acting as a group and finding the best representatives seems a good way to achieve positive results. Otherwise, we are all on our own resources which is what I think INIS prefers.

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Meachair54
4/19/2016 17:47 EST

Hello Kev NYC , Is it possible to obtain dual citizenship through any of the EU countries then being part of the EU you could live anywhere in the EU, just thought I would throw that out as a suggestion, but you must of looked into that option. Trying to help!! Good Luck !!

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2countryliving
4/19/2016 17:50 EST

I'm American but having lived in France 7 years, also have French residency. With that I can move to supposingly any EU country, except Ireland (maybe UK too - I haven't looked into that). It took me calls and emails to several France and Ireland embassies, the official EU website, Ireland forums and experts, etc etc. and no one could give me an answer of whether I could move to Ireland or not.
When I finally realized that the decision is basically made by the local police dept where you are living in Ireland, I emailed the police dept in Limerick and he promptly wrote back that Ireland does not recognize my French residency and I would have to apply as an American with no special rights. Amazing that one or two countries in the EU can be allowed to 'exempt' themselves from the laws everyone else has to follow. So, until I get my French citizenship, which is 5 years away, I won't be going to Ireland either.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/19/2016 18:00 EST

No EU country works for me although I was born in Germany to U.S. parents so am not even eligible to be President of the U.S.!

If anyone knows of an immigration attorney in Ireland with experience with either retirees or with Investor and Entrepreneur Schemes, please let me know.

Also, if anyone is considering an Investor or Entrepreneur Scheme, please let me know and we can compare notes.

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Meachair54
4/19/2016 18:27 EST

Hello Kev NYC , I guess you investigated your birth in Germany by your U.S. Parents. There are quite a few situations where you can declare German citizenship (dual citizenship) by being born in Gernany.....,??

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/19/2016 18:31 EST

Yes, apparently I could have declared dual citizenship before my 18th birthday but not even sure this was true. I think Germany has similar ancestry rights as Ireland, U.K. and Italy that I know of.

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Meachair54
4/19/2016 18:48 EST

Hello Kev NYC , dig deeper into getting citizenship in your situation by birth in Germany by U.S. Parents. There are quite a few different reasons why being born there can make it possible to obtain citizenship. I just scimmed over German citizenship and there are different opportunities and exceptions, look into it Good Luck!!

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pobauto
4/19/2016 20:11 EST

I have been looking into German citizenship, myself. Don't take this as gospel, but it looks as though German citizenship is passed on through blood (jus sanguinis) rather than soil (jus soli). It means that you would have to be of German ancestry rather than born on German soil. There may be some exceptions.

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hereineir
4/20/2016 18:49 EST

Hi Kevin, I have not seen any solicitors in person, only quick phone conversations. I was told something different by all 3, which is why I haven't retained one yet. I am getting very close to hiring one named Sean Mulvihill in Cork.
As far as organizing and petitioning, a lot of information has been researched and compiled, but the bottom line is that the Irish have the right to decide who lives in their country, period, end of discussion. There have been several TDs who have taken a stand as far as submitting parliamentary questions, to which the answer from the Minister has always been that the policy is being reviewed. We are very low priority as our numbers are small, and we have no leverage or power in this country.
There have been articles published, at least 4 radio interviews in Ireland, and tons of letters sent to politicians on both sides of the water. One lady actually wrote a letter that was received and acknowledged by the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny. His response was that according to the Minister, the policy is being reviewed.
So, 'round and 'round we go, which has gotten us to where we are now. We feel we can make some good points given the opportunity, but that's the elusive bit when a formal government has yet to be formed. We have to wait for the review to be concluded, whether it's likely to change anything or not, because that is the only answer we are given. I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Ireland, but things are handled in a very different fashion here than in the US.

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hereineir
4/20/2016 19:02 EST

Hi 2countryliving, I have several friends that are EU citizens from Germany, Holland, Scotland, England, etc.. They have all been able to just move here and even avail of state benefits. However, if you have not been awarded citizenship in any EU country, you would have to travel as a citizen of the country that issued your passport. You should be able to visit anywhere in the EU, Great Britain & NI up to 6 months, Ireland up to 3 months. You do not have to check in with the Garda unless you want to request permission to remain beyond your visitors' visa.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/20/2016 21:14 EST

Hereineir, thanks for the solicitor referral. I of course agree that the Irish State has the right to decide who lives in their country. However, it would appear that it is not the Irish people necessarily making that determination but sometimes a bureaucrat in Dublin who thinks they have the right to decide what the rules should be. I also think that anyone, Irish or American, has a right to fair treatment under the law.

Also, lobbyists are not unknown to Ireland and I feel fairly sure there are immigration attorneys in Ireland with experience working with INIS. Therefore, it only make sense that they would be a better advocate than we can be by ourselves. As you imply, insiders have more influence than outsiders. Also, organizing as a group will almost always make us stronger.

As for advocates within the political system, acknowledgments by certain politicians are not the same as actual support.

Anyway, I hope all works well for you. I hope that you are grandfathered under the old rules and that you will ultimately be allowed to stay. Unfortunately, I will not have that advantage when I am ready to retire.

Best, Kevin

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2countryliving
4/20/2016 22:13 EST

Thanks. Yes, I go to Ireland regularly but I never have the time to stay 3 months. I can actually move my French residency to Italy and most other EU countries but won't bother since I want to stay in France long enough to get my citizenship.

Actually, I could have applied for my citizenship now but after divorcing my French husband I had to move back to the US for a couple of years to sell my house and build up my business again. Applying for my French citizenship requires living in France 5 CONSECUTIVE years (I'm already over 5 years), so I have to start over at year 0 again when I return next year to France. Frustrating! It takes 2 years to process citizenship so I'm 7 years away from it...just about when I will retire. However, Irish property prices and rents have gone nuts again so by then I won't be able to afford anything in Ireland. So it may never happen and I'll have to settle for a few months at a time there.

Since I've lived in Italy and speak the language, I was looking at moving there but their self-employment taxes/SS comes to about 45%! And they don't give any special breaks for retirees so forget that!

Just taking it day by day at this point.

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Buzyizzzy
4/21/2016 02:08 EST

Goodness me, how complicated your life is, it makes mine look easy. House prices haven't gone nuts in Ireland, but the rising € against £ means I have less in my pocket now :( I'm just hoping it settles down again after our referendum. Anxious times.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/21/2016 09:44 EST

2countyliving,

Interesting comment about tax rates in Italy. Where you speaking of U.S. social security benefits being taxed at 45%?

I am assuming that when I am eligible, my U.S. social security checks will be automatically deposited in my U.S. bank account and then withdrawn as needed at an overseas ATM. Since U.S. social security benefits up to $25,000 I think are not taxable, I assumed that they would not be taxable in a foreign country as well. Have you looked into this?

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2countryliving
4/21/2016 09:57 EST

Yes, the SS income is not taxable in the US but if you meet residency requirements in Italy, they will tax the SS income. Not at 45% - that's the tax rate combo of income taxes and the medical/pension costs for self-employed people (depending on your deductions). The tax rate depends on your income and what tax bracket you fall under.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/italy/index_en.htm

Here are great resources: http://www.euitalianinternationaltax.com/
http://italy.usembassy.gov/irs/files/ssa.html

Good luck.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/21/2016 10:52 EST

I see. And there is no tax treaty between the U.S. and Italy that would exclude a certain amount (e.g. up to $25,000) of SS benefits from Italy tax just as it is excluded from U.S. tax?

If anyone knows the rule in Ireland, please let me know.

Thanks again.

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Meachair54
4/21/2016 11:53 EST

Hello, I think this should be under another topic, but this is what I have. Google U.S. Social Security benifits while living overseas, if living in the U.S. Call 1 800- 772 - 1213, or if living in Ireland call U.S. Embassy +353. 6688-777 (mornings only). The U.S. And Ireland have a bi- lateral agreement on Soc. Sec. Good Luck!!

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Meachair54
4/21/2016 11:54 EST

Hello, I think this should be under another topic, but this is what I have. Google U.S. Social Security benifits while living overseas, if living in the U.S. Call 1 800- 772 - 1213, or if living in Ireland call U.S. Embassy +353. 6688-777 (mornings only). The U.S. And Ireland have a bi- lateral agreement on Soc. Sec. Good Luck!!

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2countryliving
4/21/2016 13:22 EST

Ireland gives generous tax breaks for people age 65 and older. Check out this link below for the breaks but I would also browse the entire site for other topics. It's very helpful.
Basically, when I got divorced from my French husband and had the opportunity to redesign my life at age 57, I spent 100's of hours researching this stuff. My income is and will always be fairly minimal so I have to take into account taxation as I choose where to live. So far, Ireland and France, and of course, the US except for the extra Medicare medical insurance and payments you have to come up with, are the most retirement-friendly (for me anyway since I have my French Residency).
Here's the Ireland link:
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/credits/age-credit.html

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/21/2016 14:03 EST

Thanks 2 as I was just looking for these exemption limits and I was not aware of the higher limits for those aged 65 and older. I was also going to call the U.S. Embassy in Dublin but found out they only have morning hours. So I will try to confirm a few things tomorrow.

So it appears that, although my SS income up to $25,000 is not taxable in the U.S., it is taxable in Ireland for the amount above 18,000 Euros (or approx. $20,000) at a rate of 20% up to 33,800 Euros and then 40% for any amount above 33,800 Euros.

So assuming my social security benefits are $25,000 or 22,000 Euros, my effective Irish income tax rate would be approx. 3.6% compared to 0.0% if resident in the States.

This assumes no other exemptions or deductions other than the personal exemption limit for a single person of 18,000 Euros.

I will try to verify with other sources but do you think this makes sense?

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hereineir
4/21/2016 15:17 EST

Kevin and countryliving - I don't know any American retirees who pay Irish taxes because none of us have Irish incomes. In fact, we are not allowed to work for pay or even for free while in Ireland. Personally, and I think it's generally true for all of us, I have an Irish bank account into which my social security is directly deposited each month. I continue using my American bank account for my pension, and take money out as needed via ATM. Both are AMERICAN income sources, so no Irish tax is paid. There is a rather steep sales tax, referred to as 'VAT', currently @ 23% that we pay. I believe that the revenue link that was posted by countryliving is for Irish citizens only. We are not allowed to avail of any State benefits at all, not even a reduced fare bus ticket!
Secondly, be very, VERY leary of believing ANYTHING you read online about how things work here. We ALL did years' worth of research before moving here, even talking to Irish embassies in the states, calling INIS in Dublin, etc., only to find out when applying to remain that none of it is accurate. I was told that one could not apply for residency from outside Ireland, but since I've been living here I have heard of people applying from America before their arrival. Currently, the only status that is being given to us Americans is for one year, following which you have to go through the entire application to remain again, year after year because it is not true 'residence' status and does not accrue for citizenship. You must have a 50,000€ per annum per person income that is not derived from online work. Then, in addition you must have a lump sum that is not in investments, the amount of which has not been specifically defined other than to say that it should be enough to buy a dwelling, and that you cannot access. It must be held in the event of 'unforeseen occurrence' and cannot be spent. This criteria is what we feel is unfair and excessive. How can we go up against the Irish government saying we are being treated unfairly? Can you imagine an Irish citizen attempting to retire to the US but doesn't meet the criteria, suing the fed for unfair treatment because he doesn't meet the rules? It just doesn't work that way.

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2countryliving
4/21/2016 15:58 EST

Good point, hereineir, when I was doing my research I was doing it based on being an EU citizen that would move to Ireland (that was before I divorced and that delayed being able to apply for France citizenship for five years). I don't know how it works for Americans moving to Ireland without an EU connection. I've put Ireland on hold for the next 7 years, except to visit it, and relook at it then.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/21/2016 18:14 EST

hereineir,

Thanks again for the detailed information. So much to research but I am willing to do it. I am grateful for everyone willing to share the results of their research and I hope to reciprocate when I can.

Regarding INIS policy, the problem I have is that even if one meets the criteria to live in Ireland, one risks being deported every time INIS decides to change their rules.

By comparison, the benefit of a U.S. "green card" is that it confers permanent residency to anyone receiving it with very clear rules regarding what one must do to maintain this legal status.

The only major requirements to keep a U.S. green card are 1) remain in the U.S. for at least 6 months per year and 2) obey U.S. laws. There are no income or net worth requirements and the green card only has to be renewed every ten years.

I believe that the rules in Ireland should be set to allow permanent residency to be granted to those who meet the criteria, whatever the criteria may be at the time residency is granted.

Further, one should not be able to lose their eligibility if the rules change. This is the grandfathering that many are now arguing for, yes?

I do not believe anyone should be granted legal residency in a foreign country if they do not meet the criteria. But any person applying for such status has the right to be treated fairly and equitably under the law.

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Meachair54
4/21/2016 19:19 EST

Hello Kevin, each country has the right to allow who it wants, the criteria for staying,and if it wants to change its immigration laws for whatever reason it is their discretion and right. The U.S.A. Is not the guidelines for other countries to follow or make their laws. The U.S.A. Green card rules # 1 and #2 are the reason we have so many problems, it's easy to stay in the U.S.A. Six months out of the year and no income requirements if people on the dole and are taken care of .It doesn't give people an incentive to work. No work leaves lots of time to get into trouble. And break laws that people are to obey. So I just wonder which countries are doing it right, just my opinion , Thanks!!

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/21/2016 21:00 EST

I understand Meachair what you are saying. The U.S. is not a model for other countries. I only use it as an example of rules that are clear to follow and have encouraged the best and brightest of foreigners to migrate to the U.S.

As I said, if you break the laws in the U.S. you are sent back to your home country. As a result of this policy, immigrants to the U.S., including those who arrive illegally, commit crimes at a lower rate than the general population.

It is not immigration laws in Ireland that I object to but the inconsistent application and reinterpretation of those laws by bureaucrats that all of us including all Irish citizens should fear.

Best, Kevin

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
4/21/2016 21:00 EST

I understand Meachair what you are saying. The U.S. is not a model for other countries. I only use it as an example of rules that are clear to follow and have encouraged the best and brightest of foreigners to migrate to the U.S.

As I said, if you break the laws in the U.S. you are sent back to your home country. As a result of this policy, immigrants to the U.S., including those who arrive illegally, commit crimes at a lower rate than the general population.

It is not immigration laws in Ireland that I object to but the inconsistent application and reinterpretation of those laws by bureaucrats that all of us including all Irish citizens should fear.

Best, Kevin

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Judie
5/2/2016 07:06 EST

I find this very unusual. We arrived in Ireland and told we needed to get a pps card from social services, then found a doctor and received a doctor visit card, got a years lease on a house, took that along with proof of insurance and medical to guarda, then received our visa. No problem. Don't understand why the difficulty.

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DonieHoran
5/2/2016 08:27 EST

Cead Mile Failte - Welcome aboard !
I hope that you & yours will be really happy in the Emerald Isle & that life will be really good for you in Ireland.

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Buzyizzzy
5/2/2016 10:19 EST

Hereineir, might I point out that the VAT rates vary enormously and whilst the highest is indeed 23%, this does not apply to the vast majority of goods and services that are in daily use by the average person. The rates are a LOT lower than the UK too :)

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
5/2/2016 13:53 EST

mmccrsne, I do not know if you have completed your research on EU citizenship but if not, I will point out the various "golden visa" programs that allow non-EEU citizens to essentially purchase permanent residency in a number of EU countries. See the attached article. Portugal is popular but requires a house purchase of a t least €500,000. Others include Greece, SPain, Malta and Cyprus. There is an investment program in ireland but it does not appear to be very popular as the cheapest option costs €950,000.

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dave8408e
5/2/2016 16:08 EST

Trust me, it's not unusual. When did you arrive in Ireland? Are you retired? Are you on a Stamp O? How long have you lived in Ireland?

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dave8408e
5/2/2016 16:09 EST

Judie, are you an EU citizen?

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hereineir
5/2/2016 20:41 EST

Bizz- thanks for the correction ... I think it's 23% on 'non essentials', right?

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hereineir
5/2/2016 20:44 EST

Sounds like you're an EU citizen, yeah?

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hereineir
5/2/2016 20:48 EST

Judie, sorry, my question was for you - are you an EU citizen? Makes ALL the difference!

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Buzyizzzy
5/3/2016 01:54 EST

Not sure about the "non-essentials" description lol. Petrol, adult clothes, newspapers and probably cars, although I can't confirm the latter, are at 23%. Many of the goods are at the reduced rates tho, which is heartening :)
I'm sure you're all aware of the numbeo.com website, but it makes interesting reading I found and having just come back from a visit, I can say it's fairly accurate :)

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gringajulie
6/20/2016 11:30 EST

Thinking of early retirement in Ireland and came across this discussion . . . read the whole thread and am wondering if there are any updates?

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hereineir
6/20/2016 15:29 EST

No updates of which we are aware. People are still being sent packing. I am currently awaiting a response to my latest appeal, filed in May. We (others waiting for updates) have a Facebook page called Ireland is Home. If you'd like to join, send a request. That's the only suggestion I can make. It may take months before any policy changes appear on the INIS website. You can always pack lightly, come over for three months, then put in a permission to remain and see what happens. If you do, be sure to contact me as to 'do's and don'ts'. Good luck! Gayle

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dave8408e
6/20/2016 15:34 EST

Gringajulie: Unfortunately, there's been no change in Ireland's policies, other than rumours that they'll be more lenient with people who arrived before they added the €50K/per person/per year rule. We've been in contact with several people who have either left or are planning to leave due to the new regulations. Several people have gone to the media and we have a few gov't representatives in our corner, but between the election this year, the subsequent stalemate on just who would be in charge, and then their 'summer vacation' nothing is happening that I know of. I guess I'll be finding out when I apply for my Stamp 0 renewal in September!

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
6/20/2016 17:39 EST

Dave makes a very important point that anyone contemplating retiring to Ireland should know.

If it is true that INIS is only considering grandfathering those who entered Ireland before the new rules were published, those looking to retire in the future will be stuck with the new burdensome rules.

In fact, one can see how INIS could support grandfathering as a way of appearing reasonable while at the same time refusing to consider changes to the rules themselves.

Let us hope that those currently seeking to be grandfathered under the old rules will also fully support those who are petitioning to have the rules changed for all.

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hereineir
6/21/2016 06:02 EST

And, even if you arrived before the new rules were implemented, it's still no guarantee that you will be grandfathered. A woman who had been living here for two years applied for permission to remain for a third, and was denied. She has now returned to the US.

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DebAckley
6/21/2016 11:56 EST

I haven't read anything here about changing the rules for citizenship via great grandparents. We are in Kerry. One of the discussions we have had here with some of the local folks we've met is how is Ireland suppose to support folks who haven't contributed to the system for supports.
I have dual citizenship, but I still will have to pay extra health insurance, etc. The hardest thing for us and why we are returning to the USA is the bank! The Central Bank of Ireland ties the local banks hands and so all mortgages need to be paid off by 65 ( hard when you are 62). It's a beautiful country and home to my ancestors...we will return from time to time as visitors.

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DebAckley
6/21/2016 11:56 EST

I haven't read anything here about changing the rules for citizenship via great grandparents. We are in Kerry. One of the discussions we have had here with some of the local folks we've met is how is Ireland suppose to support folks who haven't contributed to the system for supports.
I have dual citizenship, but I still will have to pay extra health insurance, etc. The hardest thing for us and why we are returning to the USA is the bank! The Central Bank of Ireland ties the local banks hands and so all mortgages need to be paid off by 65 ( hard when you are 62). It's a beautiful country and home to my ancestors...we will return from time to time as visitors.

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DebAckley
6/21/2016 11:56 EST

I haven't read anything here about changing the rules for citizenship via great grandparents. We are in Kerry. One of the discussions we have had here with some of the local folks we've met is how is Ireland suppose to support folks who haven't contributed to the system for supports.
I have dual citizenship, but I still will have to pay extra health insurance, etc. The hardest thing for us and why we are returning to the USA is the bank! The Central Bank of Ireland ties the local banks hands and so all mortgages need to be paid off by 65 ( hard when you are 62). It's a beautiful country and home to my ancestors...we will return from time to time as visitors.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
6/21/2016 12:28 EST

Deb, have you heard that they may allow great-grandchildren to immigrate? This was the old rule, correct? At least 5 of my 8 great-grandparents were born in Ireland.

Don't understand the reason for the mortgage rule you mention. I wonder if Ireland permits reverse mortgages? I assume not. Have you discussed with an Irish financial planner how to structure around this problem? Would you consider being a renter instead?

I found this interesting document published in March 2015 by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade on Ireland’s Diaspora Policy:
https://www.dfa.ie/media/globalirish/global-irish-irelands-diaspora-policy.pdf
Lots of glowing things to say about Ireland's relationship with its relatives abroad. Wish this were translated into reasonable policies for retirees.

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hereineir
6/21/2016 14:43 EST

Hi Deb,
You are correct, citizenship through grandparents has never been discussed because that is not our"issue". Stamp 0 and new income/savings criteria is what we mainly have discussed. Those are the reasons at least 4 people who used to be here in Ire, and used to contribute to this forum, Americans, self-sufficient, who had lived here for as long as 3 years without burdening the State one bit, are all now back in US. As a condition of being granted permission to remain here beyond 90 days, we HAVE to purchase private Irish health insurance, as well as risking deportation if ANY burden falls to the State during our residency, even if we would normally qualify for benefits such as a drug scheme, free travel, free GP visits, etc.. That is all perfectly fair and none of us have a problem with it. The 50,000€ per person, per annum income seems out of reach of just about anyone. And, the additional savings account with a minimum maintenance balance of 150,000€ also seems excessive. So, even though we have all proven our self-sufficiency, we've been asked to leave because the State is not convinced.

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hereineir
6/21/2016 16:38 EST

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-05-24a.120&s=great+grandparents#g121.q

Hi Kevin! Follow the link above. It will answer your question regarding Irish great grandparents.

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pobauto
6/22/2016 15:14 EST

Thanks for the link to the Diaspora Policy. It does, indeed, make interesting reading.

I would be thrilled if I could get citizenship through my great grandparents, but from the link hereineir posted it doesn't look as though it will be in my lifetime, if ever. Can you just imagine if even a small percentage of the 'diaspora' wanted to come back 'home' and claim citizenship? That beautiful island would sink!

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
6/22/2016 15:40 EST

I am pretty sure ancestry can be used as a mitigating factor in an immigration decision. I seem to recall someone's Irish great-parents making a difference for them in their opinion.

Ireland's constitution was amended a few years ago to include this language:

“The Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage”.

Of course "special affinity" could be defined in many ways but it seems to imply special status. For retirees, therefore, being of Irish descent could make an important difference.

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DebAckley
6/22/2016 23:11 EST

From what I read on inis.gov.ie...if your great-grandparents were born here in Ireland, and your parent(s) claimed Irish citizenship before you were born, you might be able to claim citizenship.

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mmccrane
6/22/2016 23:33 EST

My great grandparents on my Father's side were born in Ireland and them immigrated to the US, My Father did not apply for Irish Citizenship. He is still alive so can I have him apply now and then if he is granted Irish Citizenship, can I then easily be granted Citizenship?
The driver is that my wife and I want to move and ultimately retire in Ireland.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
6/23/2016 09:44 EST

mmcrane, you have most likely seen this information from INIS but it may be helpful to others:

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/inis/pages/wp11000024

There seems to be a dual standard regarding immigration - a certain set of rules for non-EEU nationals of the Irish diaspora (typically children or grandchildren of Irish citizens) and another set of rules for non-Irish such as non-EEU retirees. For those of us who do not fit perfectly into either category, being of Irish descent may tip the balance a little in our favor.

Any thoughts?

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Meachair54
6/23/2016 14:23 EST

Hello, From what I read and understand your father had to register with the FBR before you were born to be able for you to claim citizenship through the FBR. I might have misread or misinterpreted it!! Best to You!!

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
6/23/2016 16:09 EST

For those who follow U.S. politics including immigration issues, please know that today the U.S. Supreme Court in a tie vote let stand a lower court decision reversing Pres. Obama's executive orders on deferred action for approx. 4 million undocumented persons living in the U.S., including thousands of Irish nationals.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/politics/immigration-supreme-court/index.html

As the Ministry of Justice has publically stated that reciprocity in immigration policy between Ireland and other countries will be taken into account in its review of Ireland's policies, this Supreme Court decision may have a negative impact on the future of retirees looking to immigrate to Ireland.

I am sure that Irish newspapers will be covering this issue beginning tomorrow, offering a better perspective than I can manage.

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Meachair54
6/23/2016 18:49 EST

The upholding of the lower court decision by the U.S. Supreme Court on illegal immigrants being allowed to stay in the U.S. and being able to get working papers to allow them to be put on a path to citizenship was put on hold. The illegal immigrants who had children born in the U.S. are already citizens of the U.S.. Meanwhile their illegal parents won't be allowed to legally work, I wonder how they're going to support themselves and families, oh, they will be on the U.S. dole. I don't believe Ireland would even think of permitting even documented people into their country without being able to support themselves.Why would this have a effect on retired people who can support themselves wanting to move to Ireland , Ireland doesn't want them in Ireland to begin with. Ireland is now going to have its own problems with immigrant ( illegal and legal ) coming from the Middle East, good luck on a positive outcome !!!

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jnofarrell
6/24/2016 21:04 EST

I hope this article sheds light on Ireland's decisions as of late: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brexit-french-citizens-in-uk_us_576d56b5e4b017b379f5beab

I'm under the impression that governments have known about the British exit/Brexit and have been planning solidarity...perhaps in conjunction with the USA's (possible) change in immigration laws.

Even though the Republic of Ireland is NOT British ruled, you must admit, the similarities in immigration change are uncanny. ?!?!

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pobauto
6/24/2016 21:47 EST

The link that KevinfromKinsale posted (http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/inis/pages/wp11000024) is regarding citizenship, and is stated very clearly. If you had a parent or grandparent born in Ireland you can apply for citizenship using validated, original documents proving the line of descent. If your great grandparent was born in Ireland you cannot apply unless a registration of foreign birth was in place prior to your own birth.
But, don't confuse citizenship with immigration. If you have citizenship you have a right to live there. If you don't have citizenship you might still be able to live there provided you qualify under their current criteria. Here, in the USA, we have many legal 'aliens'. You would be in a similar situation in Ireland.

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mmccrane
6/24/2016 23:22 EST

According to the following my father would have needed to register before I was born and he did not. So that leaves me the choices of applying anyway and pleading my case as a Irish descendant. The other option you mentioned : "If you don't have citizenship you might still be able to live there provided you qualify under their current criteria. Here, in the USA, we have many legal 'aliens'. You would be in a similar situation in Ireland."
Is the current criteria the ones posted here recently of having €50,000 income per year?

D
a child of C and a great-grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland

entitled to Irish citizenship, by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register, but only if your parent C had registered by the time of your birth.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
6/25/2016 08:57 EST

From yesterday's Independent indicating a dramatic rise in Google searches from the U.K. using terms such as "Getting an Irish passport" and "Move to Ireland":

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/how-to-emigrate-searches-spike-on-google-after-britain-votes-to-leave-eu-34830362.html

I wonder how Ireland react to a potentially significant rise in applications from non-EEU nationals seeking residency or citizenship?

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Buzyizzzy
6/25/2016 09:43 EST

Blimey, I hadn't thought of that! I shall have to find out if UK residents are allowed to be permanent residents whilst their application is going thru as well.
It's thrown a real spanner in the works.:(

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Buzyizzzy
6/25/2016 09:46 EST

Blimey, I hadn't thought of that! I shall have to find out if UK residents are allowed to be permanent residents whilst their application is going thru as well.
It's thrown a real spanner in the works.:(

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Buzyizzzy
6/25/2016 09:46 EST

Blimey, I hadn't thought of that! I shall have to find out if UK residents are allowed to be permanent residents whilst their application is going thru as well.
It's thrown a real spanner in the works.:(

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
6/25/2016 10:10 EST

Far too early to know but logically it will be the young professionals in the U.K. (or whatever may be left of it) who will seek to emigrate. Good opportunity for countries like Ireland and potentially Scotland to revise their immigration policies for non-EEU nationals that offer employment opportunities and long-term residency.

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Meachair54
6/25/2016 10:19 EST

Hello, don't waste your time the rules of FBR are in black and white, they will not even think about listening to your reasons why you should be able to become a citizen. Why? What they do for one they would have to do for all and that would become a quagmire that the Irish Gov't doesn't want to open! The other options are if you're a student or an investor who want to invest or open a business in Ireland.This would be very expensive , the last option is making 50,000 euro a year plus having "X" amount of money in bank account. Good luck on your journey to citizenship or a visa that allows you residency.

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ddemoney
7/22/2016 11:49 EST

According to a government document I found, the UK is no longer accepting retirees of independent means. Since being an exchange student in Scotland in 1972 my dream has been to live in Scotland, so I started researching...what a shock to find that document! See www.uk.gov and search for retired persons of independent means. I am SO sad!

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dave8408e
7/22/2016 14:04 EST

Re: UK retirement for non-EU citizens of independent means.... the UK stopped accepting new retirees in 2008, if my info is correct. Existing retirees were allowed to stay if they could prove 25K Pounds of income a year in non-investment income and had lived there for 5 years.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
7/23/2016 14:40 EST

Interesting that £25,000 is now equal to less than €30,000.

Non-EEA retirees will almost always have their retirement income denominated in a non-Euro currency and exchange rates will always fluctuate. In my opinion, this is another reason why the Stamp 0 rules make little sense. Or does anyone here think that the INIS will not kick someone out simply for that reason alone? If Stamp 0 policy made that clear, I and many others would feel a lot better about moving to Ireland.

My view is that Ireland should not try to copy other country's policies for persons of independent means.

For one, Ireland's need for foreign capital may be greater than other countries especially in a post-Brexit world. For another, Ireland has typically tried to maintain good relationships with countries with high Irish migrant populations such as the U.S., U.K., Canada and Australia. Of course, these relationships have become strained in recent years and I think this has led to some of the resistance to retirees we are now seeing.

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hereineir
7/24/2016 08:34 EST

Hi Kevin, I think you're spot on. Did you know there's actually a Minister of the adiaspora? https://www.dfa.ie/about-us/who-we-are/our-ministers/minister-of-state-joe-mchugh/

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heartsinireland
7/27/2016 23:29 EST

If it helps, you're not alone. I lived there 3 years and when they instituted the new income rules they renewed my permission but told me I couldn't apply again. Hopefully something will get straightened out, but I fear I'll never get to go back to live as I'll have even less money than I did. It was so expensive relocating there, and then having to come back to the USA and start over, not easy as a retiree. It's a shame for many of us.

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CalamityJan
9/2/2016 03:40 EST

Have you contacted your local TD? What area are you living in. You need to be very outspoken about your plight. The squeaky wheel gets the grease here. Get your TD or a Priest, or anybody with influence to give Dennihan a person phone call, That's the only way to get anything done. here.

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CalamityJan
9/2/2016 03:53 EST

You have to contact your TD or someone influential to contact Minister Dennihan for you. The squeaky wheel gets the grease here.

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CalamityJan
9/2/2016 04:01 EST

Change your name to Mohammad, and you can not only stay, but we will give you accommodation, food, and I'm sure you need your old iphone replaced too.

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dave8408e
9/2/2016 07:30 EST

I'd prefer to keep my situation, that of an American retiree wishing to remain in Ireland, separate from the EU's requirement that Ireland accept refugees from a war-torn region, as part of a humanitarian effort. People hear the word "immigrant" and they immediately think of the burden it places on society. In my case, and the case of others like me, we're bringing CASH and pose no burden. The Irish gov't's current position is to throw the baby out with the bath water by rejecting as many foreigners as possible, regardless of their situation. We need to change the perception that retirees wishing to live in Ireland are somehow wanting something for nothing.

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DonieHoran
9/2/2016 10:49 EST

Just for the record,Minister Deenehan is no longer in power - lost his seat in the last elections.

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heartsinireland
9/2/2016 15:59 EST

Squeaky wheels might sometimes get greased; not in this case. There are many of us who were booted out and I for one, did not go without lots of squeaking!

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jsn444
9/28/2016 15:18 EST

I am new to this forum and have read all of the posts to your original post. I am happy that you were able to stay. Pays to be tenacious. Forgive me if this was addressed in a previous post. We are planning on retiring to Ireland in a few years. We are both US citizens, but my wife is also an Irish citizen. I understand the restrictions do not apply to her, but would they still apply to me if we are married?

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thinkingGreatly
9/28/2016 16:21 EST

Bonjour from France!

I would immediately contact Lief Simon or his wife, Kathleen, who run International Living. They both have contacts in Ireland that can help you. I am sure they would help. That is their expertise.

Is the issue the $50,000 or $100,00 you must have liquid in your account to live there?

I am shocked at how you are being treated. You need to contact an Irish lawyer. No one can leave a country in 7 days if they have to pack up and move.

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DebAckley
9/28/2016 19:34 EST

I have dual citizenship...and married. Pete was told by customs to check in with the local garda and let them know he was in the country with his wife, who had dual citizenship. So we brought the long form of our marriage license ( which I never knew there was one, until we moved over), passports,...we went to the local garda and they had no idea why we were there...
We are back in the USA....the Central Irish Bank would not count my teacher retirement pension or our SS as income....and we were losing $ renting...with the exchange rate...but if we win the NYS Lottery...we are going back home...lol! Best wishes and Cheers!

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DebAckley
9/28/2016 19:34 EST

I have dual citizenship...and married. Pete was told by customs to check in with the local garda and let them know he was in the country with his wife, who had dual citizenship. So we brought the long form of our marriage license ( which I never knew there was one, until we moved over), passports,...we went to the local garda and they had no idea why we were there...
We are back in the USA....the Central Irish Bank would not count my teacher retirement pension or our SS as income....and we were losing $ renting...with the exchange rate...but if we win the NYS Lottery...we are going back home...lol! Best wishes and Cheers!

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DebAckley
9/28/2016 19:35 EST

I have dual citizenship...and married. Pete was told by customs to check in with the local garda and let them know he was in the country with his wife, who had dual citizenship. So we brought the long form of our marriage license ( which I never knew there was one, until we moved over), passports,...we went to the local garda and they had no idea why we were there...
We are back in the USA....the Central Irish Bank would not count my teacher retirement pension or our SS as income....and we were losing $ renting...with the exchange rate...but if we win the NYS Lottery...we are going back home...lol! Best wishes and Cheers!

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DebAckley
9/28/2016 19:35 EST

I have dual citizenship...and married. Pete was told by customs to check in with the local garda and let them know he was in the country with his wife, who had dual citizenship. So we brought the long form of our marriage license ( which I never knew there was one, until we moved over), passports,...we went to the local garda and they had no idea why we were there...
We are back in the USA....the Central Irish Bank would not count my teacher retirement pension or our SS as income....and we were losing $ renting...with the exchange rate...but if we win the NYS Lottery...we are going back home...lol! Best wishes and Cheers!

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DebAckley
9/28/2016 19:35 EST

I have dual citizenship...and married. Pete was told by customs to check in with the local garda and let them know he was in the country with his wife, who had dual citizenship. So we brought the long form of our marriage license ( which I never knew there was one, until we moved over), passports,...we went to the local garda and they had no idea why we were there...
We are back in the USA....the Central Irish Bank would not count my teacher retirement pension or our SS as income....and we were losing $ renting...with the exchange rate...but if we win the NYS Lottery...we are going back home...lol! Best wishes and Cheers!

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Meachair54
9/28/2016 19:54 EST

Permission to reside in the State on the basis of marriage to an Irish national
Marriage to an Irish national does not confer an automatic right of residence in the State. A non EEA national who wishes to reside in the State on the basis of their marriage to an Irish national must make an application for permissIon to become a resident of Ireland

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heartsinireland
9/28/2016 20:50 EST

Wow! That sounds crazy! Why wouldn't they count your teacher's pension and SS as income? What other sort of income would an American citizen have?? I lived there 3 years with SS as my income.

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DebAckley
9/28/2016 20:52 EST

We didn't tick the boxes! They wanted earned income.....we were told the Central Bank controls mortgages...the Irish think it's nuts, too.

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heartsinireland
9/28/2016 20:53 EST

TO JSN:
You should consult the INIS website - a much better source for answers to that specific query. Definitely your situation is different being married so someone with Irish citizenship. Good luck!

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heartsinireland
9/28/2016 20:55 EST

Correction to my msg to JSN: "married TO an Irish citizen..." sorry for the typo (and no apparent way to correct posts on this site).

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
9/28/2016 20:59 EST

So the Central Bank would not accept this income for a mortgage application? Guaranteed income (maybe linked to an inflation index) from either the US federal government or a state or local government agency sounds like pretty good collateral.

Well, that's pretty crazy but I hope INIS does not exclude this income for immigration. If so, I have wasted a lot of time.

I have asked the Ministry to be clear on what types of income are counted for Stamp 0. I hope they can answer this question before too long.

Does anyone have any knowledge to share?

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dave8408e
9/29/2016 02:05 EST

jsn444--- Thanks for the kind words. Your situation from what I've seen is common, and while Irish Immigration will make you register etc. but you won't have a problem so long as you're married. Welcome to the forum.

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hereineir
9/29/2016 09:29 EST

Thinking... I have been fighting INIS since January over this same situation. I have appealed multiple times, always with the same response. Even though I have lived in Ireland since May 2015 without any assistance from the State, they will not consider me self-sufficient because my annual income is less than required as is my lump sum savings. I do have Irish health insurance which has covered 100% of my health costs save prescriptions which I pay out of pocket. I am now heading for France myself as I can no longer live in peace here in Ireland. I did hire a solicitor who was absolutely no help at all except he lightened my wallet further. Ireland is currently reviewing their financial criteria with an eye to lowering it a bit, but even if the proposals are applied, my situation still will not meet criteria, even though I live extremely comfortably in a beautiful house. The Irish State obviously has no desire to welcome the diaspora home as they so often claim. So, I will now spend 90 days of every 180 days in France and Ireland, the best solution I can come up with as I do not wish to return to the US. It is a tremendous hassle as my health insurance and auto insurance and registration must be changed each time I move, but I am willing to absorb the extra hassle and costs involved in order to be able to spend half the year in Ireland. Sad, isn't it? Being an American citizen, I cannot avail of any State benefits anyway, so I do not understand where their issue lies. I believe they are worried about long term care as I age. But, that is what my savings are for, I just don't have six figures of savings as they believe I will need. However, if I lived in Ireland full time for say 10,15, or 20 years, and paid into some kind of "retirement" fund in Ireland during that time, would that not solve the issue? Also, I pay taxes here in Ireland, does that not count towards something? I have many TDs who have advocated for me, asking these questions, and the response is always the same.... 50,000 euro per annum income, 150,000 savings...end of discussion.

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KevinfromKinsaleviaNYC
9/29/2016 12:21 EST

Hereineir,

I wish I could say that you are wrong but unfortunately, I think you have eloquently summarized most of the concerns of people like myself. If only the Ministry would explain their logic. Unfortunately, they appear to accept as fact the belief that retirees are somehow bad for Ireland but fail to provide any evidence. I see the same thing in blogs to the recent articles on this issue. Baseless opinions from the general public is one thing but one would expect a government agency to have factual evidence to support their policies.

May I ask if the unhelpful solicitor you hired has the initials SM? If so, I may have made the same mistake of contacting him and thinking he was well qualified to deal with my issues.

As for welcoming home the Irish diaspora, it does appear that efforts such as The Gathering and the revised Irish Constitution and other similar outreach to the global Irish was perhaps nothing more than a capital-raising scheme. Hope I am wrong about this.

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DonieHoran
9/29/2016 13:15 EST

As a person born in Ireland ,I sincerely hope that this matter is sorted out soon at Government level to the benifit of all parties.I would really like to see more retired Americans settling in Ireland ,in particularl in rural Ireland where they would be welcomed with open arms.The majority of Irish people would have a strong regard & admiration for America & American citizens - our 2 Nations have long & historic linkages.Let's hope for a positive outcome to the current deliberations.

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DGL
9/30/2016 12:28 EST

Reading through all of the posts to this thread has been eye-opening! My husband and I are newly retired and looking at various countries as possibilities. We both have Irish roots (I even have a third cousin in Waterford) and love the Irish countryside, so we were looking at Ireland as a place to land. Rethinking it, in light of comments here (especially the comment that Ireland did not accept proof of a pension to meet the income requirement!!). We will continue our search for our foreign oasis...!

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hereineir
9/30/2016 18:50 EST

DGL - Irish immigration does accept pensions as income. I think what you are talking about is a mortgage broker would not accept it. So, if you were wanting to buy a house in Ireland and mortgage it, forget it. However, as I said, for immigration purposes, pensions, SS, etc., are all accepted forms of income. The problem is that under current rules, a married couple must have a €100,000 annual income, PLUS a lump sum in a savings account equal to the purchase price of a home in Ireland, so figure minimum of €150,000 PER PERSON. Those figures will be higher when converted to USD. The policy is currently under review by the Minister overseeing immigration, and the current proposed changes will drop the financial criteria to €40,000 for a single person, €60,000 for a married couple annual income. I believe the savings account amount required will stay the same, but if you buy a house, they will count that in. Meeting these financial requirements will get you a
Stamp 0 at the cost of €300 per person per year, and you must reapply every year. You may be approved for two or three years, then suddenly told that you must leave. Also, with the Stamp 0, there is no pathway to citizenship or permanent residency. Also under the proposed new rules, you must be able to show genealogical proof of your Irish heritage. At no point are you allowed to either work or avail of state benefits such as free travel or medical. You must purchase your own private Irish health insurance. It is NOT easy, they don't want it to be easy, they do not want you to come to Ireland to live permanently. Good luck!

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hereineir
9/30/2016 18:55 EST

Hi Kevin, yes those would be the initials of the unhelpful solicitor! I have finally reached the state of exhaustion in trying to deal with INIS and will be leaving for France the end of October for 3 months, then back here for 3 months, or the UK for 6 months. I have no interest in returning to the US so will do whatever song and dance I must to stay in the EU or UK.

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DGL
9/30/2016 19:04 EST

Thanks very much for your response Hereineir. I was looking at Debackley's response, where she said her teacher's pension did not count. Reading that part of the thread more closely, it does appear that she may have been talking about buying a home. We can satisfy the annual income criteria from pension and rental income. Does the EU 300k per couple have to be in the bank or can IRA funds qualify?

Also, my husband's great-grandparents were born in Ireland (and I think we can find proof thereof); I have a third cousin in Waterford who was born in Ireland (our common ancestors were not), but have not yet been able to discover a direct ancestor born in Ireland. Do you know if that is sufficient? At this point, we do not intend to live in Ireland indefinitely, but would love to do so for a few years.

Thank you!!

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KellyPsd
9/30/2016 23:00 EST

HI all, I am a 53 year old single woma, US citizen in San Diego, CA. I have been researching a move/early retirement to Donegal next year. I did read about the 50k/yr required and also will have a huge sum after I sell my home here in SD. I will have enough to purchase a house with cash when I arrive, as well. I'll be transporting my two dogs which is a very big ordeal, they are my family. Now after reading all this, I'm extremely frightened to make the move. I don't want to buy a home in donegal, bring my dogs over and then get kicked out a year later. I'll have nowhere to go back to. I was so looking forward to living the rest of my life in your beautiful country, not being a burden on the state EVER, but all this scares me....A LOT.

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ihoney
10/1/2016 00:15 EST

My husband and I received permission to remain earlier this year, however, we applied to stay for only one year. Our pensions almost meet the 50k euros pp minimum. The drivers license issue was another reason for our 1 year limit.

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hereineir
10/4/2016 12:21 EST

KellyPSD, if you meet the annual income and personal savings criteria, you should have no problems in being renewed each year. But that means you cannot touch the savings or let it get under, say, €200,000. Personally, I would avoid buying a house here, but someone else may feel differently. Someone recently was told they had to leave, and she took a big hit because she had to sell the house quickly. She also had dogs that she had brought over with her that then had to go back. I would try to apply now at the Irish embassy in San Fran if they'll accept your application. The proposed changes being considered currently make it mandatory to apply before you come over. Good Luck!

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hereineir
10/4/2016 13:22 EST

DGL - The matter of the lump sum savings is, as are many things with Irish immigration, a gray area. I believe the actual verbiage used by them is "non-investment" savings. But, I THINK that as long as it is not in some sort of long term bonds or certificates, as long as it's easily accessible, you'd be okay, i.e., IRA, 401k, 457, etc.. The income criteria for a married couple is currently €100,000 per year. At current currency conversion rates, which are nearly historically low right now, which is a very good thing for us, that is equivalent to $112,000 per year. The proposed changes would drop it to €67,000 per couple. As far as relatives go, currently you must have a grandparent or parent born in Ireland. Great grandparents do not count, neither does any other relative, such as a cousin. The proposed changes say that you must have genealogical evidence of Irish ancestry (but they don't say how many generations back, or if it has to be done by a certified researcher, or will a print out from Ancestry.com work, e.g.) You must demonstrate close ties to Ireland through ancestry, involvement in Irish associations, visits to Ireland, etc.. but, again, no specific criteria. And you'll have to go through this process every year, for at least 5 years. I could not say for certain that if you told them you only want to stay 'a few years' rather than long term residency, if it would be any easier. For a period of one year, it appears that makes it more acceptable. Hope all this helps. Good Luck!

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hereineir
10/4/2016 13:26 EST

DGL - correction : new couples' income requirement would be €60,000, which would be $67000, USD not euro.

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retiredE7sfc
11/6/2016 13:02 EST

So glad that Dave and his family were allowed to stay. I have been seriously thinking about moving to Ireland since I visited there and fell in love with the country and the people. I am retired Army with both my retirement and medical pension and get Social Security. I have Tricare for Life but didn't know if it applied in Ireland. So glad to find out that it does.

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retiredE7sfc
11/6/2016 13:08 EST

Elthea, thanks for your informative post. Is there something that those of us who want to retire to Ireland and have the means to pay our way without depending on the Irish government for anything can do to help get all this "financial requirements" changed? I would love to help if you can give me some guidance on what and where to write, call, post messages, etc. Thanks again.
Sharon Grigsby

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JohnnyQuest
12/22/2016 23:29 EST

Hi, Im just stumbling across this most informative series of posts, and find this whole thing crushing. My wife and i are right there with all of you, in the same disbelief. We are financially secure, both preparing to receive pensions, and so in love with the idea of retiring to Ireland, that words cannot express our disappointment. Its hard to believe that the Irish Government would treat Americans this way, seemingly pointless and quite frankly soulless. My wife and I felt such a connection there, to our ancestors before us. We were planning on settling down in the Kerry/Cork area, and just cannot believe how quickly the door has closed. If Ireland, the land of our rich heritage refuses to take us, than we will turn our focus back on the good ole USA, where we made our good living in the first place! Please keep these posts coming, and Merry Christmas to you all, the info I have been provided in this blog was a truly great gift!

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dave8408e
12/23/2016 12:52 EST

To JohnnyQuest -- Yes, it's been trying times for the few of us following the dream... but as you may have read elsewhere in the forum, things are looking up, and the Irish government is in the process of revising their rules for non-European retirees. We'll see what the new year brings!

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ihoney
12/23/2016 14:28 EST

Ouch! Take a breath! You have made some judgements here without knowing the circumstances. It is the holiday season. Be nice.

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JohnnyQuest
12/23/2016 14:33 EST

Lol sorry to laugh, but you remind me of the Wizard of Oz just before Toto pulls the curtain open. You think the harder your speech is, the more it makes sense. I stand by my words, the policy is flawed and needs to be changed. My maternal grand father was born in Mayo County, and My paternal Grandparents are from Kerry, So I say I do have rights, and we can just disagree from there.

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dave8408e
12/23/2016 16:28 EST

OldPro: I have no problem with Ireland 'keeping it's options open' with regard to retiree visas; it is THEIR country, not ours, after all and they certainly have the right and duty to protect and defend Ireland from undesirables. In my own case, though, having done my research, contacting their embassy etc. they changed the rules after my arrival, very nearly upending not only my retirement plans but putting my financial well being in peril. That Ireland reserves the right to act on whim, though, works both ways -- the main rule is that, in fact, there are no rules, and they'll judge each immigrant on their own merits -- and I got to stay, after all. Yes, I'd like very much not to have to reapply each year, and the Irish Immigration folks have suggested that they agree, but I came here with no intention of gaming the system and somehow getting undeserved 'freebies' from the Irish... if I am not a citizen, and I become a burden on the State, they can and should ask me politely to get the hell out of their country. As Americans, we, as a group always tend to think that we're due special privileges... you know, because we won WWII, or kept the Soviets at bay, or, in Ireland's case, privately helped fund the revolution and recognised their independence before anyone else, or that there's 40 million people of Irish ancestry in the USA. Nice reasons all, but it shouldn't give us a free pass. But, if they say that under certain conditions we can come to Ireland and join in the craic, well, I thank them for the opportunity, as a guest should. If, someday, and the good folks at the INIS and the Justice Ministry decide that we 'blow-ins' might make good citizens, I'd be delighted to apply. Until then, though, I accept that I'm just a resident alien and live at their whim. My experience, though, is that these folks possess an uncommon amount of common sense, at least on an individual basis. (Bureaucracy, though, in any country, leads to collective stupidity.)

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Meachair54
12/23/2016 20:56 EST

Hello Johnny Quest ,
Reading your last post I wonder why you don't take the path of least resistance to reside in Ireland . Why don't. You apply for citizenship by descent through FBR. , if your grandparents were born in Ireland , end of residency problems .

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OldPro
12/24/2016 11:55 EST

I'm not buying that dave8408e. You have no problem with them keeping their options open now that they have allowed you to stay. That's not what you were saying when it looked like you would have to leave.

To me it's pretty simple really. If someone chooses to move to a country based on a one year visa, they have NO right to complain if they aren't allowed to stay beyond that time period. They AGREED to the terms of the contract.

You are still making comments like, 'on a whim' etc. Nothing gets done on a 'whim'. Nor do comments about WW2, etc. have any relevance whatsoever to anything Ireland decides to do.

The message people should be getting from this thread is that IF they choose to move to a country on a TEMPORARY visa, they need to realize the potential consequences of that AGREEMENT and PLAN accordingly, not come here to CRY about how unfair life is being to them, as you have done.

I just tell it like I see it.

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dave8408e
12/24/2016 15:22 EST

So, Old Pro, I see you're an active member of the Expat Forum with over 500 posts in the last year, though we don't know where you live or your background. I see you've posted about Italy, Portugal, Costa Rica in other forums. What is your interest in Ireland, and what can you contribute to the Ireland forum?

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mmccrane
12/25/2016 01:26 EST

Hey dave8408e and OldPro - please take your one on one skirmish with each other to a call or personal emails. This is not helping to solve a huge problem here. Ireland has shamefully taken the position to not allow US citizens of Irish descent to permanently relocate to Ireland unless they are currently Irish citizens or had a parent/grandparent that was. My great-great grand parents who were Irish citizens would be ashamed of this policy. Offer some fresh new ideas on how to change it would be much appreciated by many on this forum.

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dave8408e
12/25/2016 05:09 EST

To mmccrane --- well, as 'OldPro' popped into my thread with some aggressive talk I felt the need to answer. As for fresh new ideas and how to change the Irish stance on immigration, I've spent the last two years talking about the situation with Irish politicians, been in the media a couple of times, and have spent a few hundred hours online researching the topic, offering advice to those I could help, and writing a lengthy piece to the INIS when they asked for comments on upcoming changes to the rules. At this stage, I've done about all I can do on the issue. Feel free to start your own thread on the solutions you've come up with (we all know what the problems are) and we'll look forward to seeing if they differ from any that have been proposed and attempted.

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Meachair54
12/25/2016 08:09 EST

Hello mmccrane ,
Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year ! Whether your G.G.Grandparents would be ashamed is not a factor in how the Irish Gov't. Makes its policies on who it allows to reside in its country, just as the U.S. doesn't care what immigrants say about the U.S. Changing its policy on allowing immigrants to reside in.the U.S.. Each country has the right to make its own rules to safeguard its own people and economy , no matter what outside entities think or feel about it .
Once again this is one of the reasons people came up with the term Ugly Americans !!! We are always trying to shove our way of living down other people's throats , our ways are not always best .
Ireland is being gracious enough to look into the residency rules and modify them somewhat for those U.S. Citizens wishing to reside in their country. Which is generous ,you wouldn't see other countries even considering making changes to residency easier, only changes other countries would do is make them stricter., people should be happy with the changes Ireland is making toward residency. We'll have a great day!!!

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OldPro
12/25/2016 10:37 EST

Well dave8408e, I also post in the Global Forum as well as some other country specific sub-forums you didn't list for me.

I have lived in various countries and have a pretty fair degree of experience based on that. My experience is not LIMITED to one country, nor is my view limited to ONE viewpoint.

What I can contribute to the Ireland or any other sub-forum is an UNBIASED view of the pros and cons of moving to another country.

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OldPro
12/25/2016 11:38 EST

Mmccrane, please take your one on one comments and put them somewhere.

To write, "Ireland has shamefully taken the position to not allow US citizens of Irish descent to permanently relocate to Ireland unless they are currently Irish citizens or had a parent/grandparent that was. My great-great grand parents who were Irish citizens would be ashamed of this policy.", displays two things.

One, your UScentric arrogance and two, your ignorance of Immigration requirements around the world.

Ireland is NOT discriminating against Americans. They have the same rules for people from any non-EU country.

Their Immigration requirements are no different than the immigration requirements of many countries.

NO ONE has a RIGHT to expect to be allowed to live in a country of which they are not a CITIZEN.

What do you think the USA offers to the potential retiree from say Ireland mccrane? Do you think they welcome someone from Ireland who had a great great grandparent who came from the USA? Or even a grandparent? They do NOT.

By your view, the USA has, 'shamefully taken the position to not allow Irish citizens of American descent to permanently relocate to the USA unless they are currently American citizens or had a parent(but not a grandparent) that was.' Try the shoe on the other foot mmccrane.

As for the USA's policy regarding allowing someone to retire in the USA based on an income/investment basis compare the Irish requirement of 50,000E per person of income with the USA requirement of:

An investment of $500k to $1 mil depending on where someone chooses to invest. This is the "Regional Center EB-5 Program." It gets you a 2 year "CONDITIONAL green card". This program is often referred to as the ' US retirement visa' option.

Oh and let's not forget the 'administrative fees' of $25-50k that you also have to cough up for this program. Such an attractive offer and so gracious of the USA to make it to non-Americans don't you think mmccrane?

http://www.canadianexpatnetwork.com/public/177.cfm

Look at the Immigration requirements of many countries and you will find they are much the same. Canada won't take American retirees any more readily than the USA will take Canadian retirees. Ireland is in fact EASIER to gain entry into than either the USA or Canada for a retiree from another country.

The fact is mmccrane, that all YOU appear to know is that YOU are not happy with Ireland's requirements which are obviously beyond your reach.

At least dave8408e was raising the issue of the requirements being CHANGED after they arrived in Ireland. That issue is of course answered by, 'you agreed to the 1 year term of the visa'. You on the other hand have no basis to question ANYTHING that currently applies mmccrane.

Why don't you come up with some "fresh new ideas" on how to change the USA's policy on accepting retirees from other countries. Who knows, maybe if you can make that happen, Ireland will reciprocate with some changes to match it and even make a special case of Americans.

Until then mmccrane, you are just another American crying because you can't get your way.

Meachair54 got it absolutely right when s/he wrote, "Once again this is one of the reasons people came up with the term Ugly Americans !!! We are always trying to shove our way of living down other people's throats , our ways are not always best .
Ireland is being gracious enough to look into the residency rules and modify them somewhat for those U.S. Citizens wishing to reside in their country. Which is generous ,you wouldn't see other countries even considering making changes to residency easier, "

All I would change is the word 'ugly' for the word 'ignorant'.

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pobauto
12/25/2016 17:05 EST

Old Pro, please reduce the venom.

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hereineir
12/25/2016 19:55 EST

Meachair54 ~ I am In agreement with your post regarding INIS' willingness to review the non-EU immigration policy, in response, at least in part, to the many TD parliamentary questions, and the letters, media appearances, etc. that dave mentioned, done mostly by US citizens, Minister of DJE, Frances Fitzgerald, having been made aware of the issues and inconsistencies, has acted to right them, primarily with a view to Ireland's best interests, admirably and justifiably.

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mmccrane
12/26/2016 01:28 EST

Hi dave8408e - so thank you for your added insight and efforts. Ireland certainly deserves to make it's own policies around not only immigration, but all things pertaining to it as an independent country. Got that. My wife and I are open to applying for the 1 year stints as you have. Seems like a plausible short term option. Then again, we can always go to Costa Rica and retire ! Cheers.

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OldPro
12/27/2016 12:03 EST

Pobauto, all I have done is tell it like it is and provide facts.

Why is it when someone posts the simple truth, people refer to it is 'negativity' or in your case, 'venom' when they don't like what is being said?

Why are you not admonishing someone who writes that Ireland has acted "shamefully"? Is that not 'venom' pobauto? It is a clear and intended insult to Ireland.

Ireland's requirements for Immigrants are quite similar to those of many other countries. Yet when some individual does not like the requirements, they decide that, "Ireland has shamefully taken the position to not allow US citizens of Irish descent to permanently relocate to Ireland unless they are currently Irish citizens or had a parent/grandparent that was".

You pobauto ignore that denigration of Ireland and choose to try and tell me what I should write or not write in response to that comment.

When someone INSULTS Ireland (or any other country) without CAUSE, that is the person who should be being told s/he is out of line. And THAT is what I wrote and said.

Ireland has NOT acted 'shamefully' in any way. Nor is their immigration policy intended to discriminate against Americans in any way. Only an IGNORANT person would perceive it that way.

An intelligent and informed person would know better than to make a comment saying otherwise.

So here is what I suggest to you pobauto. You are entitled to an opinion on anything, regardless of how wrong you are.

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FlowerFairy
12/27/2016 15:36 EST

Think it is time to call a truce and 'time out' and agree to disagree.

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FlowerFairy
12/27/2016 15:39 EST

Can't argue with that. It is time for all the

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FlowerFairy
12/27/2016 15:41 EST

Not sure what happened to the rest of my reply calamityjane but meant to continue on.....it is time for all the 'bleeding hearts' to get a wake up call.

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OldPro
12/27/2016 18:30 EST

FlowerFairy, there is NO agree to disagree. A fact is a FACT, you cannot disagree with it. Agree to disagree ONLY applies when it is just a difference of opinion.

Ireland has NOT acted shamefully is a FACT, not an opinion.

What it is time for is those who suggested otherwise, to ADMIT they were wrong to say so and for others to admit they are wrong to try and excuse such unwarranted insults to a country.

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OldPro
12/27/2016 18:37 EST

CalamityJan, what are you implying when you write, "If you want permission to live in Ireland, change your name to Mohammad."

No one named Mohammed gets
special treatment just because of their name, so you weren't trying to suggest that were you.


Have the balls to say what you mean, not attempt to slip in an ignorant innuendo. Cowards really are annoying. If you're a racist then go ahead and say so and suffer the consequences.

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JohnnyQuest
12/27/2016 21:27 EST

Congrats Old Pro, your first rant without the excessive use of CAPITAL LETTERS damning us all to hell.

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Meachair54
12/27/2016 22:01 EST

JohnnyQuest , on 23/12/16 you were complaining about how unfair Ireland was treating U.S. retirees who wished to live in Ireland , then you mentioned in a later post your maternal grandfather came from county Mayo and your paternal grandparents came from Kerry. Why don't you get your Irish citizenship thru your grandparents by registering with FBR, thus no problem with moving to Ireland. You never responded to my suggestion isn't that easier then whining about how unfair everybody is being treated by Ireland ,just curious .......

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OldPro
12/28/2016 13:40 EST

Which asylum seekers/refugees from the USA does Ireland turn away Calamityjan? Or do you think someone who is forced to flee their home is no different than someone who just wants to move to a country of their own free will?

Someone who chooses to move is a 'migrant'. which is totally different from an asylum seeker/refuguee who has been FORCED to leave their home. If you don't understand the basic difference, I suggest you try to educate yourself on the subject.

Why do you refer to Americans of Irish descent? Are not Canadians or Australians or Argentinians or Bermudians of Irish descent subject to the same requirements? You like others who have posted here have a UScentric viewpoint. You want special treatment for Americans simply because you're American and THINK you have a RIGHT to special treatment. The Irish government policy is NOT 'anti-American' at all. They treat Americans like they treat any other non-EU nationals.

You're a bigot Calamityjan and an ignorant American. You've made that perfectly clear. Fact.

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bogart2
12/28/2016 17:59 EST

You two please stop, or take the discussion off-line.

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bogart2
12/28/2016 17:59 EST

You two please stop, or take the discussion off-line.

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DGL
12/28/2016 21:50 EST

I've been absent from this discussion, but I want to thank Hereineir for answering some questions s/he gave me about how different kinds of income might be treated for purposes of moving to Ireland for a few years.

More importantly, I would like to reassure the many wonderful non-American people reading this thread that not all Americans are like MMccrane or Calamity Jan, who seem to think that Ireland owes them the right to live there. I am a native-born American with Irish ancestors but I well understand that it is each and every country's right to determine who will be permitted to reside within its borders, including whether its own citizens may do so (I'm thinking, e.g., of citizens who might commit treason). Please do not think that all Americans are so ugly. As far as this American is concerned, MMcCrane and Calamity Jan are an embarrassment on the international stage. No country should want to admit persons with such arrogant attitudes.

I apologize to everyone for further sullying this thread, but I just had to speak up.

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ihoney
12/29/2016 06:35 EST

What happened to our informative, helpful, considerate thread? I quit.

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OldPro
12/29/2016 12:07 EST

DGL, well said.

I am not an 'American basher' in any sense. There are as you suggest, a few who are an embarrassment to the majority, just as there are for any other nationality.

What annoys me these days, is the unwillingness of the majority to call these people out when they make statements of the kind some have made here.

Ironically, in terms of this thread, it was an Irishman who said,
"“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ? Edmund Burke.

Never apologize for speaking up DGL. It is those who do not speak up who should be apologizing.

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mmccrane
12/29/2016 20:36 EST

ihoney - great question. I think we are all wondering that as well.

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JimBobJr
1/25/2017 14:31 EST

As to the proposed changes to 60K euro per couple, is there a way to monitor progress on this change? We want to spend time in Ireland, and a year at a time sounds a lot better than 90 days at a time.

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dave8408e
1/26/2017 03:27 EST

I'd keep an eye on this page:

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Immigration%20information

...and of course, I'm sure there will be much talk here on the Ireland Forum.

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kenssongs
1/27/2017 22:04 EST

Dave, it's not nice to tease! ;) Cheers!

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