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arthow
3/14/2019 11:56 EST

Excuse me for the multi posting concerning my retirement options.My bad!

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elhombresinnombre
3/14/2019 14:06 EST

Forgive me for only replying once !

I think you are doing exactly the right thing in coming to try the country out before you make any decisions. Try to spend as much time living an "ordinary" life in whichever part of each city you are likely to settle as you can.

There's lots of research you can do from wherever you are now by studying people's opinions on forums like this one and by reading your country's version of the Argentina Consulate website. I'll just throw in a few comments:

The country is in crisis right now and things are pretty bad for a lot of people. It's not peaked yet. It will go away. But these things are cyclical and crises will come back again. You need to be comfortable about weathering this sort of storm on a regular basis.

Bariloche and Buenos Aires are so different they might be in two different countries. BsAs is one of the largest and most densely populated cities in the world. Bariloche.......... .........isn't.

The Argentine Spanish language is very different from classic Spanish. Buenos Aires Spanish is different again from the Argentine Spanish in the rest of the country. If your Spanish is good, you will cope. If your Spanish is not so good, in my opinion you will find more German and English speakers in everyday life in Bariloche. Most middle-class Argentines everywhere tend to speak very good English but you won't often find them in the everyday life of supermarket checkouts or utility offices.

There are minimum income requirements, in AR$ for a visa pensionada but because of the continuing severe inflation in Argentina they have been been drastically increased and are likely to be drastically increased again quite soon. Because of currency devaluation the value of the minimum income requirement when measured in US$ stays more or less the same but is creeping upwards.

The culture of property ownership in Argentina is probably fundamentally different from whichever other countries you are used to. Don't expect prices to plunge because there is a financial crisis: most property is not mortgaged and people will want to hang on to what they own if they possibly can as the only stable thing in a crazy world.

Many people really embrace living the way of life of Argentina but many more don't. Whatever you decide is right for you, have a great time finding out!

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arthow
3/14/2019 18:54 EST

Than you so much for your reply and i will consider accordingly.

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arthow
3/14/2019 18:54 EST

Than you so much for your reply and i will consider accordingly.

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Travelseeker
6/2/2019 20:49 EST

Excellent insight and valuable information.

Thanks
Travelseeker

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Nelmi
6/3/2019 08:24 EST

Hello,

Great information but I beg to differ about the comment regarding Spanish and English. There are differences between Classical Spanish and Castellano o Spanish spoken in South America but if you speak Spanish, you will understand and adapt quickly.

Main differences are the use of Ustedes and Vosotros. In Argentina they use Vos (you) and in Spain not. The largest differences in Spanish are in pronunciation, but even these aren’t so big. In Argentina the people speak with different tones. For example the Cordobeses are often referred to as singing because the pronounce the words longer. There are also differences in pronouncing the "y" and "ll".

The biggest problem is with younger people who make up new words. Sometimes not even teachers understand them.

We studies Classical Spanish and had absolutely no problems adapting to Castellano. It takes a lot of practice and interaction with the locals to understand the humor. We also did not have problems to speak Castellano to people in Madrid, Barcelona and Mallorca when we visited last year.

Should you learn Spanish in Spain or Latin American Spanish?
Some people say that Colombian Spanish is the clearest and most beautiful form of the language. Some say that Argentine Spanish is the sexiest Spanish. Others believe that the Spanish of Madrid is the most important, as that is the home of the Real Academia Española which regulates the language.

But it shouldn’t be a question of Spanish vs Latin American Spanish. When choosing where to learn Spanish, focus instead on where you would rather be, what kind of adventure you would like to have and, naturally, your budget. Rest assured, whatever variety of Spanish you learn, you will be understood all over the Spanish-speaking world.

We interact with a lot of people seeing that we work in tourism. I do not find a lot of people speaking English and especially in smaller towns and rural areas. Yes, you will find younger people who speak English in bigger cities but not everywhere. Even English teachers here in schools admit that they actually teach a very basic form of English to the students. Most of our friends do not speak English. They want to learn and some feel that it is important but they feel shy to speak in front of a person who is fluent in English.

Just my observation from 12 years here in Argentina about Spanish and English.

Argentina is a beautiful country to live in. Foreigners often find a little spot where they are happy and content. Many do not and simply cannot adjust. If you can live here for more than 5 years, you will be able to live here forever. Economical crisis is part of the history of Argentina. I do not see it going away in the future. Yes, it will improve and it will deteriorate again. This year is complicated. It is the year of elections and the current Government have not been successful in combating the inflation. People have less money in their pockets.

Wait until after the elections in October to see how things are playing out. In the mean time gather as much information about Argentina, history, culture, visas etc. Study Spanish....it is very important and you will have to integrate with the people. Otherwise you will always be a foreigner and have to rely on other people to translate.

Best of luck.
Nelieta

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todikaios
6/3/2019 08:49 EST

Very good posting by Nelmi. It is important to learn the Spanish in the country/region you choose to live. There are many localisms, words and different meanings for common words that must be mastered to understand and be understood properly. While the basic Spanish of a Mexican living in the Yucatán will get him by if he is visiting San Telmo, Buenos Aires, there will be lots of lost understandings due to the differences in diction, meanings of words, etc. This makes it a necessity to spend time in a locale before making a long-lasting, life-changing decision. To move anywhere when there is freedom to choose without investigating multiple possibilities is prone to disappointment and loss(es).

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TomP
6/3/2019 11:13 EST

Great comments about knowing the language. My wife is fluent in and has lived in Spain, Mexico, Puerto Rico and Argentina.

Maybe I am missing the point but much of the conversations seem to have little to due with what kind of financial resources one needs in Argentina. We lived in Mendoza including San Rafael for 5-years.

We experienced some people entered Argentina with a lot of wishful thinking but little cash and income. I do not think this is a good idea.

My wife and I were able to rent very nice, brand new Condos in Mendoza at affordable prices compared to any major US City, but we needed a reliable source of income and or cash reserves.

Regarding inflation, our vineyard Workers make less now than they did 10-years ago, about US$375 monthly working 5 1/2 days a week

There are business opportunities but you will be paid in AR pesos not US$$$. Of course if you are working for a Foreign Company that pays you what you would earn in the US or Europe you are in good shape. US$5,000 a month income will put you in a very comfortable position in Argentina, US$1,000 a month won't.

Rarely discussed is transportation. It is hard to balance cheap rent with with great transportation, i.e. if you want cheap rent and live 45-minutes out-side of the city you'll likely need a car. If you live in the city where rent is double or more you may not need a car. My wife and I lived several years in Mendoza City without a car and would take a bus to San Rafael.
Eventually we did buy a car but be warned even a 15-year-old clunker will cost you UDS$5,000 or more.

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Nelmi
6/3/2019 11:53 EST

Hi TomP,

If you bring 1,000 USD into Argentina, it will be more or less 45,000 pesos. 5,000 USD is more or less 225,000 pesos. That is a lot of money! If you rent in BsAs (friends of mine just rented their apartment in BsAs, Parque Chacabuco (a very good and nice area) for 14,000 pesos per month. It is a 2 bedroom apartment with a living area and balcony. Add food and transport (15,000 estimated). You can still live a good life on 1, 000 USD per month...even with the current inflation.

With 5,000 USD per month you will be living like a king!

Kind regards
Nelieta

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TomP
6/3/2019 12:07 EST

Nelmi,

Thank you for your reply.

When I was in Mendoza you needed to spend about US$750 monthly for a really nice 2-be 2 bath condo with parking located on Belgrano or San Lorenzo.

I did know Americans paying a lot less, e.g. US$250 monthly in San Rafael for example but they were in the boondocks and had to have a car or wait hours for a bus.

If they found a cheaper place in Mendoza City it was either in a poorer section or an old, old apartment over a retail shop in the center of town.

I just don't want people to think they will find a gorgeous 2-bed 2-bath Condo (not apartment) in a highly desirable section of town for US$300 monthly.

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Nelmi
6/3/2019 12:12 EST

Hi Tom,

I understand. Back then the exchange rate was more or less 14 pesos against the Dollar? That was more or less 10,500 pesos per month. Like I mentioned, the current rate in a good area in BsAs is now from 12,000 and upwards. I cannot see it being more expensive in Mendoza. The main hub is in BsAs.

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Nelmi
6/3/2019 12:19 EST

Tom,

Here are apartments available for rent in Mendoza. The prices are more or less what I mentioned.

https://www.inmoclick.com.ar/inmuebles/alquiler/departamentos/mendoza

Prices vary from 200 USD to 500 USD per month. If you are looking for a luxury apartment or condo, you will pay. The average person I guess prefer to have more money in his/her pocket than to spend everything on accommodation.

Kind regards
Nelieta

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TomP
6/3/2019 13:05 EST

Nelmi,

I agree with you and thanks for letting people know there are still bargains in Mendoza.

The main point I was making is some people are not financially restricted regarding cash reserves or income and want something nice, perhaps really nice and the two Condos my wife and I lived in were just that, lovely.

A quick story, the first time we were in Mendoza and aggressively looking for a nice Condo we looked in the local Newspaper (my wife is fluent in Spanish). We found a rental, called the real estate agent (Argentine) and met him the next morning. The unit was excellent and he quoted US$2,000 monthly (2009). We agreed to move forward but wanted to discuss it over lunch. A referral we were given contacted us and said there was an identical unit on a better floor with a better view of Park Italia for US$700 a month. My point, if a Foreigner don't assume you will be treated the same as an Argentine, more often that not you won't be.

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TomP
6/3/2019 13:05 EST

Nelmi,

I agree with you and thanks for letting people know there are still bargains in Mendoza.

The main point I was making is some people are not financially restricted regarding cash reserves or income and want something nice, perhaps really nice and the two Condos my wife and I lived in were just that, lovely.

A quick story, the first time we were in Mendoza and aggressively looking for a nice Condo we looked in the local Newspaper (my wife is fluent in Spanish). We found a rental, called the real estate agent (Argentine) and met him the next morning. The unit was excellent and he quoted US$2,000 monthly (2009). We agreed to move forward but wanted to discuss it over lunch. A referral we were given contacted us and said there was an identical unit on a better floor with a better view of Park Italia for US$700 a month. My point, if a Foreigner don't assume you will be treated the same as an Argentine, more often that not you won't be.

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TomP
6/3/2019 13:18 EST

Helmi,

Thanks for the info.

Haven't lived in Mendoza for over 5-years but do maintain vineyards there (55-acres) which requires me to know what the AR pesos is doing.

When I hired my Vineyard Manager in 2008 I paid him AR 1,500 pesos a month when the AR pesos was AR 3.2 per 1 US dollar and earning US$469 monthly. Now he makes 15,000 AR pesos at AR 40 pesos per 1 US dollar or $375 monthly. He, and my vineyard workers are going backwards.

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TomP
6/3/2019 13:18 EST

Helmi,

Thanks for the info.

Haven't lived in Mendoza for over 5-years but do maintain vineyards there (55-acres) which requires me to know what the AR pesos is doing.

When I hired my Vineyard Manager in 2008 I paid him AR 1,500 pesos a month when the AR pesos was AR 3.2 per 1 US dollar and earning US$469 monthly. Now he makes 15,000 AR pesos at AR 40 pesos per 1 US dollar or $375 monthly. He, and my vineyard workers are going backwards.

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Travelseeker
6/3/2019 21:00 EST

Nelieta's post is honest and very truthful. I can agree on all of the topics she covers. My question from an Americans point of view is "How can one obtain the proper language skills necessary to navigate and negotiate in Argentina? Is there a formal school that teaches the language and specific dialect?

Travelseeker

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TomP
6/4/2019 07:06 EST

Travelseeker,

While living in Mendoza City my wife and I (she is fluent in Spanish) had many American visitors.

Some wanted to learn Spanish and attended formal schools, others used private instructors. Most were not thrilled. The cheaper public schools were slow and painful. The private Tutors were expensive and impatient. While US$10 - US$20 an hour may seem cheap it isn't if 40-hours later you still cannot speak Spanish.

I suggest you immerse yourself into Spanish while at home and come to Argentina with a basic grasp of the language. For example learn key words and a few hundred common nouns.

Also, there is a distinction between Spanish spoken in Mendoza and Buenos Aires, I often heard locals in Mendoza say people in BA speak too fast. And when I was in BA locals looked down on people from Mendoza.

But, it should not pose a problem. English is not common but it is not uncommon. The first thing I would do is locate an Ex-Pat Club and ask questions about my concerns. Be as prepared as you can.

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Nelmi
6/4/2019 08:03 EST

Hi Travelseeker,

There are a various options. The Buenos Aires Government offers a free program for Foreigners, Refugees and Diplomats. This program has been running for many years. In fact, my husband joined them 20 years ago. Classes are free and they maintain a high standard. I don't think this program is available in other provinces but I might be wrong. I will have a look in Cordoba for example but it definitely exists.

I will find the link and post it here.

The second option is a company called Coined. I was invited a couple of years ago to visit the school in Cordoba. They have a good idea. Learn Spanish as you travel. In other words, you can join the school in BsAs, then connect with them in Bariloche, Mendoza etc. and you continue to learn. They have individual classes (more expensive) and for groups. What I like about their method is that they jump immediately into Spanish. A good option to look at.

https://intercoined.com/

Spanish classes are available everywhere. You can find personal tutors or join a group.

I highly doubt that you will pay 20 USD x 45 pesos = 900 pesos per hour. That is crazy! Remember that TomP is quoting prices from many years ago...2009 etc. The exchange rate was 3.50, 9.00 and not even getting to 14 when he left 5 years ago.

You could also, from home, download the application Duolingo onto your smartphone. I think they also have a desktop application. A great way to learn Spanish for free and it is fun.

Try Udemy as well. They offer great courses and often has discounted courses. I have done some of their courses (not for Spanish) and they do offer a money back guarantee if you are not happy.

Watch TV or programs in Spanish with subtitles. It helps a lot.

Also, ask at the Argentine Consulate for recommendations. They should have information about Government sponsored programs to help foreigners.

Kind regards
Nelieta

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TomP
6/4/2019 09:37 EST

Nelmi,

Thank you for your advice that is certainly more current and extensive than mine, however, if I wish to quote 10-year old statistics I will so note and place them into a proper perspective..

It is true that the US dollar has more bang for the buck now than when I first purchased land in Argentina. When I arrived in 2007 it was AR 3.0 pesos for each US dollar. Now its AR 40+ pesos for each US dollar.

However, this does not necessarily equate that a person today when visiting Argentina will get AR 40+ pesos for 1 US dollar but enjoy 2007 prices. Hardly. As you know gasoline is expensive, food is very expensive: milk, bread, meat, even fruit.

I have never had a single person tell me, "Wow, I came to Argentina and the standard of living I had back in the US was available and so incredibly cheaper. And the safety was the same and the roads and the services at the Banks and Utility Companies were the same and the prices for cars were the same ...".

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TomP
6/4/2019 09:38 EST

Nelmi,

Thank you for your advice that is certainly more current and extensive than mine, however, if I wish to quote 10-year old statistics I will so note and place them into a proper perspective..

It is true that the US dollar has more bang for the buck now than when I first purchased land in Argentina. When I arrived in 2007 it was AR 3.0 pesos for each US dollar. Now its AR 40+ pesos for each US dollar.

However, this does not necessarily equate that a person today when visiting Argentina will get AR 40+ pesos for 1 US dollar but enjoy 2007 prices. Hardly. As you know gasoline is expensive, food is very expensive: milk, bread, meat, even fruit.

I have never had a single person tell me, "Wow, I came to Argentina and the standard of living I had back in the US was available and so incredibly cheaper. And the safety was the same and the roads and the services at the Banks and Utility Companies were the same and the prices for cars were the same ...".

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Nelmi
6/4/2019 09:45 EST

Tom,

Thanks for the reply. I think you need to keep in mind that some commodities do not increase with inflation. One of them is Spanish classes. Rent did increase but is not linked to inflation. Electricity, water and gas expenses did increase substantially due to subsidies by the previous government that was taken away.

If you bring one USD into Argentina currently, you will still be able to change it in the streets. In fact one of our Supermarkets accepts USD and they give 45 pesos to the Dollar. If you change it a bank, you will get the official rate.

It is very important to put things into perspective. The dynamics in Argentina has changed a lot. If you have a stable economy then 20 USD what you paid in 2008/2009 would still be valid today. Unfortunately Argentina does not have a stable economy.

Land for example and buying houses are still measured in USD. This will never change. Salaries for example did not increase with inflation. It is important to see what things changed and what did not. With all due respect, that is only possible when you currently live here. A lot of things have changed in 5 years since you left.

When you said yesterday that somebody needs 5000 USD to live in Argentina, that was not accurate. I think it is important to give people the right and current information, especially if they want to make a permanent move to Argentina. I hope you agree?

Nelieta

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todikaios
6/6/2019 16:06 EST

Hi Nelmi:

Did you find the link for the Spanish learning classes sponsored by the Buenos Aires government? I'd like to take advantage of the program if it is still available. Thanks for posting it when you find it.

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Nelmi
6/6/2019 16:54 EST

Hello Todikaios,

I checked but they do not have a website. I can give you the name of the school and where they are situated. It is Escuela Roca and they are close to Teatro Colon. It is one of those places that not many people know about. I also found an extensive list of schools that offer Spanish classes to foreigners. Prices vary. They are all accredited. This list does not mention the above school. Maybe there have been changes...not sure. Things are changing all the time.

https://turismo.buenosaires.gob.ar/en/article/language-courses

This one caught my attention:

https://verbum.biz/es/

Prices are not bad for a semester. Also, I do see on the list is the University of BsAs. They also offer Spanish for foreigners and even have classes specifically for people from Asia etc. Nice of them! They do charge.

In the mean time I will keep on looking if I can find more information. I guess it is one of those places where you have to go in person and find out. Pity I am not in BsAs, otherwise I could have gone :)

Nelieta

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