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ponymalta
8/13/2019 13:39 EST

A special thread for US politics discussion ! Maybe keep it away from other informational threads but here people cant rat all they want against Trump or Clinton, AOC or McConnel, and other topics of debate !

CynthiaER
8/13/2019 14:31 EST

Ppnymalta, that's a good idea. Other forums and listservs I've been on that were dedicated to a particular theme ended up creating separate topic folders for off-topic issues such as politics.

It's a great way to allow forum members to engage in debate or in (occasionally heated) exchanges of opinion while allowing discussions relating to the main forum topic to continue.

Is there a way to create an actual separate folder or discussion area within this forum format? One that could be titled "Politics," or, more generally, "Off Topic."

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CynthiaER
8/13/2019 14:31 EST

Ponymalta, sorry. Typo on your screen name.

ponymalta
8/14/2019 03:53 EST

No problem.

I think he thread itself people can post too. I know one Expat Forum I am on that specifically has an Off Topic section, and sometimes monitors may even switch a post to a different thread or ask that posters keep on topic.

SkyMan
8/14/2019 10:35 EST

Pony, I wholeheartedly second that motion. Gracias. Buena Suerte !

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 11:05 EST

Today’s inversion in the US Bond rates (the 10 year falling below the 2 year) is not a good thing. That’s a classic signal for a recession in the way

Some things to consider

- moving quickly from a situation where the message has been ‘the greatest economy ever’ to a potential recession is going to be a big shock to the system. Companies who’ve ramped up in expectations of an improving situation may well go into reverse. That tends to be ugly.

- if the US or World economy catches a cold the sickness is generally much worse in developing countries like Colombia

- generally situations internationally aren’t improving. Now for example the Chinese are now suggesting that the Hong Kong protests may be a result of US interference.

- a recession in the US has implications beyond Trump’s re-election. An increase in austerity, after the tax cuts for the rich and corporations is only going to lead to further division in the political landscape.

- in trying to respond to a down turn not changing the play book (adding more tariffs, cutting more taxes, pushing interest rates down to the level that the Fed has no ammunition left) could get very, very ugly.

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ponymalta
8/14/2019 11:23 EST

I agree the inversion you speak of is a potential negative, will be interesting over the next month or two how it plays out.

A big wild card is how the trade negotiations play out- certainly after years of wimp negotiators his strategy a lot stronger yet also could be brinksmanship that may not work. The jury is out we just don't know. The election timetable in China's favor if a Democrat gets it, so they just may take a hit for a year figuring they will make it up when a Democrat gets in.

Most businesses I speak to working on assumption of continued growth, and need to raise wages to attract workers and some already doing so. One factory I know has had to raise starting wages for full time and temps 10 to 15% last 2 years.

Germany just announced a negative growth rate last quarter. Both UK and EU probably in for a few moths rough sailing last quarter of year if a non deal Brexit

No matter what the 2020 election I think will be the most bitter and horrendously expensive election ever.

BlueSeas
8/14/2019 11:25 EST

PL

Are you suggesting there could possibly be a factual basis to the Chinese claims? I don't see where Trump would actually care about independence in HK, and any other possible reasons beyond his comprehension,

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 11:53 EST

@blueseas I’m struggling to see where I suggested it was factual. But no US Navy ships allowed in HK at the moment. The Chinese aren’t backing down. Just about time for Trump to decide that a selling some weapons to Taiwan would be a good move.

What I do know isn’t factual is that ‘trade wars are easy to win’ and that they can spin out of control.

One other thing to add (and I was at the epicenter of the last financial crisis) was that we only got through that with a lot of cooperation between nations. Do you think we’d see that this time.? Recent cuts in European Bank rates to try to revive the economy there were portrayed by the White House as further exploiting the US economy. Can the world economy be pulled out of a recession with an America First strategy?

@ponymalta your point about the majority of businesses still planning for expansion only emphasizes my point. If things do turn south it’ll be difficult. Companies and consumers have piled on debt. Not a good game plan in a recession. Just because you were told that it was the greatest economy ever and that 3% growth wasn’t even trying where’s that trickle down money? As for wages increasing so significantly (and there will be inflation behind that) perhaps so dramatically putting the screws on legal and illegal immigration might be a root cause. Lot of Americans are going to be mowing their own lawns. Lot of US mothers going to have to leave the labor force when that cheap nanny isn’t there. Do you see many Americans volunteering to spend their days pulling the innards out of chickens for a low wage?

As for the Chinese waiting for an ‘easy Democratic administration’ the issue will be what will the world economy look like when we get there? Presumably in your eyes the Democrats will then ‘own’ the then created problem.

Equally when the Democrats were in power the amount of US debt was a huge issue to Republicans who blocked any increases. The US deficit YTD has already exceeded last years full year number. What was the change that convinced The Republican Party that debt was good and if the Democrats get into power will they continue that belief?

JustSomeGuy
8/14/2019 12:59 EST

The last one is easy. More debt is good if it makes “our guy” look good. If the Democrats get in power the debt will be a very bad thing, in the opinion of the Republicans, the Democrats will love it however. I’m sure there are brilliant rationalizations for all this. I’m opposed to most government debt because the plan is for the children to pay it back. I would rather eat beans out of a can than leave my daughters a debt to pay.

I think consumption in the USA is a major source of world wide pollution. A recession usually means less consumption. As a conservationist that sounds like a good thing to me. I prefer voluntary reductions in consumption and am uncomfortable about forced limits on consumption but a recession falls within my comfort zone. And I’m not in favor of people starving, I would go into debt to give people food and in fact do give people food, kids can’t concentrate on multiplication if they are hungry. I’m not a fan of regular folks buying $6 lattes though and much of our consumer debt is for things most folks can safely do without.

An economist might say a recession will burn off the dead wood and let the companies that survive it thrive. Increasing efficiency and enriching everyone in the long term.

Americans are fat. Maybe they should mow their own lawns, and the lawn of the little old man next door. And care for their own children, not all of them, some of those parents are not so great but most would do a fine job raising their kids and would likely be better off for it, albeit poorer. Why do they need to be richer? Does driving twice as much and expanding the roads to support that really make Americans happier than Italians? It definitely poisons our air though, lots of code yellow and orange pollution days here. Many Americans are glad to look for a job pulling innards, at a good wage, at least according to what claims to be ABC news. A quick DuckDuckGo search turned up:
“Days after immigration agents arrested 680 Latino workers in a massive workplace sting at seven Mississippi chicken processing plants, job seekers flocked to an employment fair Monday in hopes of filling some of those now-empty positions.”
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ice-raids-mississippi-hopefuls-flock-job-fair-64934480

I know there are downsides to everything, less consumption is the USA is uncomfortable to those who want to consume more, less in Africa is probably just plain bad, since most folks are on the edge, but there are upsides to things as well. Might as well look at both.

mattinnorfolk
8/14/2019 13:11 EST

The deficit went from 9 trillion to 18 trillion from 2008-2016 and this included huge cuts in the military from Iraq war year levels, Granted we did have a recession and that played a part. A large majority of richest saw tax increases, an I know its not a great talking point, but it is true because of the SALT provision of only writing of $10,000 from taxes and interest deductions. They are the ones that own multiple homes, and mansions and got clobbered. The IRS says 80% got a tax cut, but many didn't realize it because their withholdings changed in February and their check went up then, so less refund. . The child credit and standard deduction doubled. The reason many rich pay so little is its all Cap Gains and dividends, so we need to bring back the Alt. Min. Tax so at a certain point you go to ordinary income tax rates like W2 earners no matter where the income is derived from.


The last thing I would say if you were a corporation and every member running on the Democratic side says the first thing were doing is getting rid of the Trump tax plan. Would you seriously make long term investments now if they raise the corporate tax rate from 21% to 36%, and don't forget to add 12% or so for California state taxes. ( Are you willing to risk capital on and investment when most fail, just to keep 52-60% if you're right) Canada-26.5%, Denmark-22%, Finland-20%, Netherlands-25% UK-18%.... Colombia is -33%

https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/tax-rates-online/corporate-tax-rates-table.html

mattinnorfolk
8/14/2019 13:33 EST

One last thing and I appreciate you starting this tread. We all know its not mathematically possible to tax your way to fix the deficit You must have growth and spending cuts. We have enough places around the world now that show that does not work. The revenue is going up nicely at the moment, but any first term president that goes after Entitlements will not be a second term president, and that is where the money is.

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 13:41 EST

@martinnorfolk

So if you were running a company you’d invest when you didn’t know what tweet was coming next? Plenty of Trump’s advisors have told him that many of actions weren’t a good idea, but he’s overruled them based on his ‘gut’. That’s Harvard Business School best practice?

The very rich did get big tax decreases. The 1%. They don’t bother about SALT.

But of course this isn’t going to be a badly thought and badly executed economic plan by Trump. Any downturn now is of course the fear Corporations have that fake news will get the radically socialist Democratic Party elected.

While Trump supporters all worry about AOC they’re looking in the wrong direction. The mainstream Republican Party is going to be under a lot of pressure from their donor base to stop the rot. Trump got them what they wanted, reduced taxes and Supreme Court justices, but if they start to perceive he’s a liability you might be surprised what will happen.

mattinnorfolk
8/14/2019 13:43 EST

I am not a Trump guy just a capitalist And economist

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 14:01 EST

@martinnorfolk good, you’ll know the history of how well trade wars work out then.

nonames
8/14/2019 14:29 EST

Amen Matt!

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 14:46 EST

@martinnorfolk ‘not a Trump guy but an capitalist and economist.’


I think you’ll be part of a growing trend trying to separate yourself from Trump and excesses.

At election time though the vote will have to be cast for Trump though won’t it, as the alternative will be Venezuelan style economy?

By the way did AOC make a speech today that frightened the market? It’s down 750 points. What did she say?

mattinnorfolk
8/14/2019 15:19 EST

Paradise honestly I have no idea if she said anything or not, I doubt that would affect the stock market. the average Americans 401K is up somewhere between 30 and 40% since he got elected, I can only assume you didn’t get to enjoy the ride. The stock market doesn’t go straight up, The average return is only about 10% a year, granted it’s been closer to 15% a year under Trump, but you got to give back sometimes a little bit of your gain.

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 15:46 EST

@martinnorfolk

I just figured she said something because a negative event like this couldn’t be anything to do with the Right could it?

Interesting that you seem to think I’m not showing profits since Trump was elected. Paper profits though because it’s been obvious that this ‘great economy’ was a sham and this wouldn’t last. Actually my investments are generally in an area that have done very well because of the corporate tax cuts. However there’s more to life than the balance in your 401k. Particularly as the gains likely aren’t going to stick.

A few weeks ago there was talk that the Chinese might start selling some of their $1.7 trillion in US Treasuries to put pressure on the Trump Administration. Everyone agreed that would be a step too far and lead to financial Armageddon.

Today there’s a story going around that the Trump Administration is talking about freezing those same assets. That’s going to be fun. Still you’ve explained to us that the market doesn’t go up in a straight line so we’re prepared.

Interesting that you mention plans like 401ks. In the last recession we saw that the rich could use financial products and strategies to enrich themselves as the market tanked. Even something simple like shorting the market. Unfortunately for 401k holders the rules were carefully written to ensure that that toy box wasn’t available to them.

So 401k holders have two choices as the elevator of the stock market descends at great speed. Watch the loss or bail out. And when they bail out who buy up the stock. The 1%! Present day capitalism at its best. Where did all those houses lost in the last recession go? To ‘investors’ and landlords to rent out. Let’s just understand that it’s less and less an even playing field.

mattinnorfolk
8/14/2019 16:07 EST

I try not to be so negative, a 6% correction in there stock market high is hardly something to panic abou lt over my 30 years. I try to be optimistic, the world will still keep going. Try to be happy for that little guy and gal in the United States that are doing the best they’ve done in 20 years. For some reason the rich always got it out for the little guy. Give them a break.

nonames
8/14/2019 16:09 EST

Amen again Matt!

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 16:21 EST

Good news @martin and @nonames

Now we know the reason for the market drop as President Trump has revealed the cause, surprisingly on Twitter

‘..Spread is way too much as other countries say THANK YOU to clueless Jay Powell and the Federal Reserve. Germany, and many others, are playing the game! CRAZY INVERTED YIELD CURVE! We should easily be reaping big Rewards & Gains, but the Fed is holding us back. We will Win!’

I think we all know that this will calm the markets and reverse today’s 800 point loss. Incidentally, what did Germany do?

Seriously guys, I commend your loyalty but if you have the experience you claim you have this doesn’t ever give you a nervous tic? If nothing else how if you’ve the best economy ever why would you drop rates?

Of course now we’re getting into a crisis of Trumps making with the trade war the Fed will drop rates and Trump will tell us he was right all along.

Interesting the Fed members and Jay Powell in particular don’t resign. Wonder if Uncle Mitch is whispering in their ears to stay the course?

mattinnorfolk
8/14/2019 16:31 EST

Why do you listen to his words? They mean very little as opposed to Obama whose meant less. I look at results, and not words, as I liked Obama and don’t like Trump personally. But I watch results, and don’t need to like the politician. It’s his actions that speaks, not his outrageous mouth and tweets. I am a libertarian and not wedded to any one party, but it you can’t see the USA needed a radical change and voted for Hilary? I gave Obama 8 years to make a difference, so can’t you meet me halfway and give Trump 4? The truth is it’s the radical left that is helping him get 8 years, so I send my gratitude to you Paradise! Saludos!!!!

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 16:42 EST

‘Radical left’ always the final passing insult.

This is the new Right view of the ‘radical left’. Anyone who believes in

Health care for all

Fair taxation

Lack of discrimination whether color, religion or sexual orientation

That man is having a negative impact on climate change

America is about diversity and that power should not reside exclusively with old rich white men


It appears that any of things, if they ever came to pass, would tear the country apart.

mattinnorfolk
8/14/2019 16:59 EST

According to the 2017 BP Statistical Review of World Energy, since 2005 annual U.S. carbon dioxide emissions have declined by 758 million metric tons. That is by far the largest decline of any country in the world over that timespan and is nearly as large as the 770 million metric ton decline for the entire European Union.
BtW Paradise the EU GDP was just over 17 trillion, and the USA is 19 + trillion. How do we produce more, with less greenhouse emissions? What’s a fair tax to you? 95% , I agree health care is a problem, but if it’s a right, then food and shelter seem sort of important as well, so we should give that away as well I suppose? In my case, if you could add wine as a right I might be willing to listen.

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 17:34 EST

@martin

‘The BP statistical review’. No hidden agenda there then. 2005-2017 timeframe. That is when policies other than the current administration were in place. It’ll be interesting to see how the 2018 and 2019 figures come out.

Give away food and shelter? Well in a rich country (best economy ever) is it reasonable that anyone shouldn’t have food or shelter. There will always be the unfortunate in society. Perhaps some will have to be given help. Still, good news for you there on the Trump Administration cutting back on food stamps. We don’t want those poor kids getting too comfortable do we.

And of course good news this week on taking away benefits from legal immigrants (401k) holders and then the quietly passing changes to the Endangered Species Act to ‘help industry’. Your Trump Administration is achieving a lot of things just not a lot of commendable things.

Still, as long as your 401k is looking good. Of course you’re one of the lucky 32% who have such an account and you probably have more than the average account holder. The median balance for those
Between 45-54 is under $44k. For those between 25-34 $8k. Somehow I don’t think they’re been the big winners in your Trump stock market ‘surge’.

Still all of this extra defense spending is helping. The CEO of Lockheed Martin made over $20 million last year for example. Perhaps you should crack open a bottle of champagne together while you discuss the pros and cons of food stamps and whether we really need gray wolves?

ponymalta
8/14/2019 18:02 EST

ParadiseLost

It seems , at least my impression, you see everything through partisan eyes. On the trade issue I wrote simply I don't think one can make a highly probable forecast yet of the effects- Trump has replaced to former wimp strategy of both Republican and Democratic administrations with a forceful pro-American strategy- whether he can pull t off I don't know.

There are a variety of reasons for the wage increases, and yes for some lower skilled workers any improvement in border control is helpful.With the positive trends in unemployment one would expect in a tighter labor market upward pressure on wages.

You made a very good point about the inverted yield curve, again I think we will know more in a month or two on the degree of importance of that issue.

The last county I was in, people are more likely to vote for Trump now than they even did in the last election- how much is Trump's credit or not, the workers and working poor in that country have gained more in 2 years than the prior 10 to 15.

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 18:50 EST

@ponymalta agreed we should be watching the polls. I see young Eric is on the case

‘Eric Trump claims media biased against dad’s corn kernel polling in Iowa’

mattinnorfolk
8/14/2019 19:19 EST

Pl, If your not getting a check from Trump for the amount of space he is renting in your brain, you are being totally ripped off and just another poor unpaid victim of the Donald.

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 19:30 EST

@matt just settle down with your 401k statement and your glass of wine and leave the rest of us to worry about the problems that your ‘libertarian’ views are creating.

littlebhuddha64
8/14/2019 22:03 EST

mattinnorfolk “the average Americans 401K is up somewhere between 30 and 40% since he got elected“ Where are you getting those numbers? According to Forbes, it’s only 15-20%

mattinnorfolk
8/14/2019 22:39 EST

Look at the price of spy in November Election Day until now. Add about 2% a year for dividends and you’ll get there. It’s far and away the largest holding in all American 401(k)s .

DallasSteve
8/14/2019 23:10 EST

It sounds like Matt got his 40% number from The Donald. The S&P has gone up 25% since Trump took office. Here is a graph showing the last 6 Presidents from CNN, the official news agency of the Democratic party. It is nevertheless a nice graph, updated as of today.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/business/stock-market-by-president/index.html

ParadiseLost
8/14/2019 23:17 EST

@matt it’s almost as if you’re cherry picking numbers. If SPY is the largest holding in 401k accounts it doesn’t mean that all of their holdings are in SPY.

Add in that most 401ks aren’t static. If you’re retired they may be but for workers they’re adding new funds each month. Those new funds buying into a rising market will dampen overall portfolio returns significantly, particularly with younger, newer investors.

So yes, it’s possible that some 401ks have risen the levels you suggest, but certainly not all and probably not most.

Chattaroy
8/15/2019 00:17 EST

Paradise - how can you argue with a guy who is headed downstream to Niagra Falls when he spent his last dollar on the best river raft ever made...why he even has a river helmet.

The Falls are going to be there centuries after SFB with the raft.

BlueSeas
8/15/2019 00:22 EST

Trump inherited the economy we've seen thus far in his tenure. He didn't make it. Not enough time.. Obama inherited a poorly trending economy and kept it from crashing. Then turned it around. I have little faith in the Donald to pull off something similar.

Focusing on 401K's is an exercise for the already wealthy. Some number near 50% of the population have 401Ks, and at age 65, the median balance is about $60,000. So 75% have accounts worth <60,000.

I wasn't able to find exact stats, but the present value of Social Security is, or should be a much greater concern. On a similar basis, the present value of SSA to a household is probably worth around 600,000 in present value or 10x the 401k value. More or less depending on assumptions for interest rates and 1 vs 2 earner households.

It really rubs me the wrong way when SSA and Medicare are referred to as entitlement programs. I think I got my SSA card in 1965 and payed payroll taxes my entire career. While payroll taxes weren't insurance premiums, there was still a contract, pay now and you will be covered later.

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 06:31 EST

Steve, as you see on Nov 7 2016 the SPY was 216, and the high before the correction was 302 and I said from the high, and you need to add about 4.5% to 5% to that number for dividends. Try your math, so 30% and QQQ from 115 to 195., so sustantially more. The Russell 2000 1282 to 1740 and now 1467 so hit the most except EEM. The EEM or emerging market index was about 36.5 and was 47 pre tariffs, and now 38.5 so not the place to be for sure. Thank you for the chance to clarify.

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 07:00 EST

‘The average 401(k) balance rose by 466% since the market bottom in March 2009’

Source: CNBC/Fidelity 05/20/2019

Seeing as Obama was President from 2009-2017 it suggests that the performance since that date has been that different. But that can’t be the case can it? He destroyed business. I read that all the time. Must be ‘fake’ news.

What it does show that using data like the growth of 401ks isn’t a very reliable indicator of Presidential performance (if nothing else the addition of new funds distorts balance growth) and trying to suggest performance using a single index fund even less useful.

So making note that we need to allow for dividends, but then avoiding considering how the reinvestment of those dividends then distorts underlying market growth we’re suggesting we can measure and attribute to a sitting President is a little suspect.

ponymalta
8/15/2019 07:17 EST

ParadiseLost,

“Radical left’ always the final passing insult”

I don’t know why this would be an insult, i.e. it is either accurate or not. It can be radical compared to average liberal beliefs and emotions, or radical compared to traditional American traditions, strengths or values. One thing which I appreciate in the current Democrat debates is the honesty of Sanders in not being afraid to espouse his policies publicly and hat the other candidates coming out with statements that just a short while ago they may have thought but refrained from saying for fear of losing votes Even this wacky AOC one has to give credit for speaking her mind.

“Anyone who believes in Health care for all.”

I happen to agree it is absurd the American health care system and the cost and difficulties of access- but by a dictionary definition of ‘radical’ some of solutions proposed are radical, even if they are rational.

“Fair taxation”
Defining what is ‘fair’ in taxation is a very difficult thing to do in an objective manner. I think more time has to pass to judge the overall merits of the tax cuts while attack on anti-business and often inane regulations is a positive for the economy.
“ Lack of discrimination whether color, religion or sexual orientation”
Legislation hardly is a complete solution, and discriminating in favor of some groups over others one could argue hardly seems a solution to reducing discrimination!
“ That man is having a negative impact on climate change”
Is he? Have carbon emissions in the US the last two or last ten years gone up while China and India’s gone down? Are the dire extrapolations being thrown out due to the US and Europe projected growth or more to India and China ongoing growth? Doe the History of far out extrapolations by the left and environmentalists since the Club of Time in 1964 show a high degree or predictive probability? I haven’t studied the matter in great detail but seems signing an accord that permits China and India to keep increasing their pollution seems an odd way to promote the climate change agenda.
“America is about diversity and that power should not reside exclusively with old rich white men”
Whether diversity is necessarily a good or bad thing may be debatable, and as far as “old white men” (such leadership made America for a long time the wonder of the world) time will deal with such thigs based on current trends and history. Back in the 1920’s it would have been somewhat rare to see an Irish or Italian CEO of a major financial organization, now seeing such last names one doesn’t blink an eye. Experience counts, and over time as long as America retains a focus on merit and not social engineering, it won’t always be ‘rich white men’. More women than men I hear are getting MBA’s, and society doesn’t expect any more for women to put their children first, so as women get more experience in careers. And use their own particular strengths, the last few decades’ shows steady progress albeit slow to some. Whatever one’s viewpoints it is radical to want to force social change above change based purely on merit which the market place can do.

I happen to agree with you some deep changes need to be made for a 21st century economy though we may differ on what those changes may be- or if Congress could ever reach a reasonable consensus on these issues. The left and right will both continue to complain about the other and engage in wacky conspiracy theories or uncivil dialogue far past the presidencies of Obama or Trump. Many of my own positions could be considered ‘radical;’ on the left or right- I can’t imagine how I would feel ‘insulted’ of some described as radical- either they are or they are not.
We are just two countries now- some just want to put food on the table, some concerned about transgender rights and their opportunities, some for more freedom others wishing to harness government power to engineer social change, the only advanced nation with such poor access to health care, and very different views about what is important in life.

My two cents I think Trump has a reasonable chance of being re-elected, on the other hand I think he may be the last Republican president.

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 07:35 EST

@ponymalta come on - the term ‘radical’ is used to express the idea that someone had extreme views. And it’s used almost exclusively for the left.

Somehow the current Administration, based on Bannon’s Extremist right wing agenda of breaking society up and the rebuilding it how he wants gets depicted as ‘mainstream’ and ‘telling it as it is’.

The only was Trump gets re-elected given his dismal approval ratings (he hasn’t mentioned the latest Fox poll) is by frightening the populace that electing a Democrat will a) cause markets to crash and lose them all of their money b) lead to extreme socialism c) unregulated immigration including a welcome mat for criminals.

Therefore any opposition rather than having a different view has to be depicted as ‘radical’

The person who is smiling is Putin. For years Russia/USSR tried to go head to head with America spending trillions on defense and continually getting nowhere. Then they find out that all you need to put a few hundred people posting on Facebook (kindly provided by the Americans) and America dissolves into divided nation. Up then steps a President who then destroys the concept of America being a fair and dependable partner internationally.

The history books will depict Putin as a genius, or at least a lucky genius. Trump will not be treated kindly.

morganstern
8/15/2019 07:42 EST

Wow...I read the posts on this chain and now I need a dramamine.

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 07:59 EST

Walmart raises earnings, smashes through estimates, stock up almost 7% this morning. Same store sales rising dramatically as customers spend more money, who is the shopper at Walmart? I wonder if it’s those damn deplorable‘s trying to screw things up again :-), I am happy for their pay raises.

elpdiver
8/15/2019 08:02 EST

One reason the balance of401K accounts is sky rocketing is that they are the only "pension" plan available to most folks any more. A substantial portion of that increase is the contribution of the worker and the matching funds of the employer. Yet many of my younger coworkers won't even save enough to get the matching company funds.

It has not been easy to save the amounts that I have saved over my working career to fully fund my IRA's and 401k; but, it has paid off well.

And that social security that everyone has been telling me won't be there when I retire (I believed them by the way). Well that will contribute over 3 grand a month to my income and my wife will get one and a half grand on top of that.

For me the biggest threat is the perversion and bastardization of law. When a simple law has to be hundreds of pages long and even then can be twisted and manipulated by lawyers...

ELP

ponymalta
8/15/2019 08:34 EST

Paradise Lost,

I have to agree with you on this one- it is absurd that the USA cannot provide more accessible health care, and not have provision for food and shelter on a reasonable basis similar to what the UK or many European nations provide. As much as I comment on wacky democrats, or how republicans cant be blamed for everything under the sun my opinion is the Republican Senators and Congressmen should bow their head in shame all the effort against Obamacare without providing a better alternative.

littlebhuddha64
8/15/2019 09:21 EST

Stock market isn’ Even open yet and futures are down across the board

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 10:46 EST

@matt true, good results from Walmart but same stores rising dramatically?

Same stores were up 2.8% (forecast 2.1%) but that’s likely to be their entry into online store and delivery pick up of groceries. Still growth, but they’ve added more reasons for people to come to the store.

The blockbuster number is online sales at 31%. They ran a program effectively matching Amazon Prime deals in July.

Nothing wrong in that again, but the move to online sales and away from bricks and mortar isn’t necessarily positive for the economy longer term.

Whether the money is coming from pay rises is more questionable. US consumer debt was up 0.9% in Q1 compared 0.4% Q418).

Nothing wrong there again, confidence fueling consumers feeling happy to take on more debt, provided the expansion continues.

As for the ‘deplorables’ ( as opposed to us Lefties, ‘the enemy of the people’) perhaps they are taking their cue from the President that everything is going just fine and are only getting better. Let’s hope he is right. Unfortunately many of Trump’s base are those who tend to do worst in a recession. The first to lose jobs, the first to get cut off from credit, the first to have their homes repossessed.

If the economy goes south the first people to get help will be the poor rather than the rich, right? Isn’t that always the way it is?

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 10:57 EST

Pl, The sad part is so many people are depending on retail jobs, and with wages going up retail it is going away from cost and online you pretty much just mention and there’s not a ton of other jobs those people can do. Bricks and mortar are going the way of the horse and buggy in much more then just retail.

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 11:06 EST

@matt but not just the people. All that commercial real estate, all those malls with empty storefronts and the number increasing by the day.

Plus while those unemployment numbers look so fine (and this isn’t just a US issue) so many of the new jobs being created are low paying and have no benefits. Riding a bike to deliver food, driving an Uber, working in a warehouse, none of these tend to become high paying careers. I’m not saying creating jobs isn’t good, but there’s a quality aspect there as well.

While we’re having fun with figures anyone have Avianca Holdings in their portfolios? Down again today and despite the new management not a lot of positives at the moment. A classic case of expanding too fast with too many USD obligations? Lifemiles are ubiquitous in Colombia these days but will we ever get to spend them?

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 11:44 EST

For years it was rumored united wanted them bad to get to South America, and they wouldn't take the deal, and now they have no leverage. It cost me a boatload of money the last pilot strike they had because my flight got canceled and I had not taking have insurance. Gates and others think there should be an AI or robot tax.

Elexpatriado
8/15/2019 14:01 EST

Are you talking about Colombia Connections Pony?

Cant say I recognize you from that one.

Does anyone remember that crazy conspiracy nut from PBH called himself "Gringoloid"?

He once actually told me it was unethical and " illegal" to use different Avatar names on different Forum sites..LMAO

Elexpatriado
8/15/2019 14:03 EST

A lot of the Republican establishment have been against Trump from the get-go..

For instance..the Koch brothers want him out..

https://youtu.be/QU2ydKjIKzI

Elexpatriado
8/15/2019 14:20 EST

Mattinfolk

Came totally from switching from coal to gas fired power plants.

Something that is starting to happen now in China..though it willl be countered by their higher GNP growth rate ( after the trade war and recession runs its course over the next couple years)

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 14:57 EST

Natural gas it would be a huge improvement, France uses tons of nuclear power, but I guess it’s not very fashionable anymore. I know I certainly wish we had natural gas vehicles in Medellin.

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 15:20 EST

‘The Fake News Media is doing everything they can to crash the economy because they think that will be bad for me and my re-election. The problem they have is that the economy is way too strong and we will soon be winning big on Trade, and everyone knows that, including China’ President Trump 08/15/19

Hands up who didn’t see that coming. Any Republicans want to attempt to explain how the Fake Media now controls the Economy, rather than the Administration, the Fed or any of the normal suspects.

‘Everyone knows’?

I didn’t.

Is it wrong to believe my Border Collie thinks more rationally than he does?

Elexpatriado
8/15/2019 15:23 EST

The 10%/ 90% solution in Medellin and Colombia in general.for air polution woukd be:

1.Make use of low sulfer " clean fuel" gasoline from the over budget recently expanded Cartagena refinery mandatory in Comombia instead of exporting it and using crappy Venezuelan pirated gasoline
2. Enforcement and mandatory insñection of all vehicles to ensure they meet tramsport standards for tail pioe emission filterinh and engine timing, ignition, operation maintenance requirements

jo12208
8/15/2019 16:00 EST

You have serious TDS.

Todays quotes on bond yields
10 year US 1.518%
10 year German bund -.718%
10 year Jap note -.23%

Guess what? Foreigners are buying US treasuries to get yield. Is that a surprise to you?

Yellen doesn' think this necesarily signals recession. There is 15 TRILLION in global bonds that have minus yields

Demand for treasuries goes up and yield goes down.

That is one of the main reasons fir the inverted yield curve.

The lesson is finished. You can continue with your anti Trump diatribes.

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 16:40 EST

I suspect they would improve things more giving those 300k fines for pica o plata to failed emissions standards and the things you propose.

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 16:42 EST

‘this NECESSARILY signals recession’

When the yield curve inverts investors are worried about the economy and therefore seek ‘safe’ long term treasuries. In normal times the US Treasury is seen as being the safest asset.

While it’s true that other rates are negative do you think that the fact that you can only earn one and a half percent on a 10 year instrument is wildly attractive?

All those ten year yields are telling you that everywhere is in a bit of a mess.

Noticeably Trump himself tweeted that the markets are under strain but that it was the ‘fake medias’ fault. I’m happy to have the lesson in explaining why that’s the case.

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 16:45 EST

It’s the Boj and ecb that’s been keeping rates at zero and long before Trump was elected. Why don’t you blame the problems over there on them, and the tactics they tried to use . Rates were going up over here the last 3 years, When did Trump take over Europe and Japan?

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 16:49 EST

It has happened 7 out of the last 10 times, so it is not 100%, and this time do you think this is a normal bond market giving the reserve policies in Europe, Japan, and the United States from 2008. I have no clue what is going to happen because we are in unchartered territory so we’re keeping interest rates this low in buying back bonds in all parts of the world to keep interest rates at zero and try to force growth and investment to buy stocks , it certainly did not work in Europe and Japan so far. Japan has had no interest rates for 20 years.

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 16:51 EST

We have a incredible bond bubble all over the world, we need to be raising interest rates slowly everywhere and not doing this crap we’re doing The last 10 years we created a real estate bubble now we created a bond bubble .

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 16:55 EST

Mohamed El-Erian: Inverted yield curve recession signal is 'distorted' this time around
Matthew J. Belvedere | @Matt_Belvedere
Published 5 Hours Ago
CNBC.com
"The bond market is distorted ... by what's happening outside the U.S.," says the Allianz chief economic advisor.
"If you live in an interconnected world, you have no choice but to import the effect of negative policy rates in Europe," he explains.
"That is going to distort our yield curve. And it's going to weaken the traditional signalling mechanism" for a U.S. recession, he argues.

Mohamed El-Erian, the well-known economist for Allianz who used to run investment giant Pimco, told CNBC on Thursday the inverted yield curve recession signal that made all the headlines this week might not be as reliable as it has been in the past.
"The bond market is distorted. It is distorted by what's happening outside the U.S.," said El-Erian on "Squawk Box." "If you live in an interconnected world, you have no choice but to import the effect of negative policy rates in Europe."
On Wednesday, the 10-year Treasury yield inverted, and briefly went lower than the 2-year yield for the first time since before the 2008 financial crisis and subsequent Great recession. Such a move has preceded every U.S. recession over the past 50 years, but a recession does not materialize on average for nearly two years.

El-Erian argued the U.S. should not have such low policy interest rates from the Federal Reserve or market rates in the bond market because the U.S. economic data are not pointing to a recession. But as he said Wednesday, the Fed has "no choice" but to cut rates again at its September policy meeting. Central bankers reduced rates at last month's gathering after hiking the cost of borrowing money four times in 2018.
"There are two realities," the chief economic advisor at Allianz explained on CNBC on Thursday.
The European Central Bank has negative rates and it's going to take them lower, he predicted.
"And it's going to restart QE," or quantitative easing, which is an accommodative measure that would involve the ECB buying government bonds from eurozone countries to further boost lending and stoke inflation.
"So all that is going to distort our yield curve. And it's going to weaken the traditional signalling mechanism" for a U.S. recession, El-Erian said.
In an interview Wednesday, former Fed Chair Janet Yellen made similar comments regarding the yield curve, saying traders and investors may be wrong this time around to trust it as a recession indicator.
"The reason for that is there are a number of factors other than market expectations about the future path of interest rates that are pushing down long-term yields," Yellen told Fox Business.
Yellen also said she does not think the U.S. is headed into a recession. "I think the U.S. economy has enough strength to avoid that, but the odds have clearly risen and they're higher than I'm frankly comfortable with."
View interactive content
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Global Business and Financial News, Stock Quotes, and Market Data and Analysis

Data also provided by

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ponymalta
8/15/2019 17:18 EST

Elexpatriado

No I dont know that site.

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 17:20 EST

The Japanese have had low interest rates for years. It’s not a ‘tactic’ it’s to try to stimulate growth. Remember Japan in the 1980s. Low population growth and a strong currency have been issues for them. They’ve gone from being a great competitor to an also ran.

The EEC has also had issues, in the weaker countries like Greece, Italy and Spain. That’s now spreading to other countries like Germany.

Everything is interlinked. America puts tariffs on China. China slows, the Chinese stop buying Luxury German cars, Germany slows down.

Low interest rates aren’t a tactic. They more an instrument of last resort. Making rates go negative is to punish people for not putting cash to work, it’s a cost of not putting on risk or investing.

The US has had the stronger economy since the last recession. Part of that was the US being much more proactive in sorting the issues out. Unpopular as they were, and maybe still are, the bank bailouts and forcing the weak to merge cleaned the US system much more quickly. Look at Germany’s largest bank Deutsche. It’s incredibly weak and only now doing things that US banks finished doing five years ago.

The problem we have is that under the current administration it’s a zero sum game. For Germany to make progress that is seen as being at someone else expense. Having a trade deficit with one country or another is ‘losing’ and if the US is losing then the other country must be cheating.

Japan and Germany don’t have low interest rates to try to damage US business opportunities. It’s to try to kick start their economies. In the old days countries would sit down and discuss joint action. The US doesn’t do that any more.

What you end up with if you are not careful is a race to the bottom. The US will now try to cut rates, and then that will force the hands of the Europeans and the Japanese again. Then the US will cut again.

The problem gets exacerbated when the Administration, to fire up the base, suggests that the EEC was set up as a sort of anti-US cartel. It’s patently untrue but language like that makes any thought of cooperation impossible.

jo12208
8/15/2019 17:42 EST

Trump is at fault as always. Jaja. I am not sure if he is in Colombia. If he is he should check out his EPS. I think they have Trump Derangement Syndrome therapy available.

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 19:06 EST

@jo12208 actually you’re the problem not Trump. You finally think you’re going to be the ‘man’. You’ve got a President who’s going to let you say what you want, do what you want with immigrants, do what you want with your guns, and show everyone other nation who’s the boss. You never question him, you support him whatever he says (no matter how nonsensical) and you’re now the expert on everything. He’s going to deliver you to your promised right wing world.

But he isn’t. The job that you lost to China isn’t coming back. A woman is still going to be your boss and ultimately the Republicans care nothing for you other than your vote. They’re so busy pushing your money to the Ultra rich, giving so much power to their elite you’ll get nothing.

You’ll cheer and clap as they take away your health care, you’ll drink a toast as they cut back on ‘entitlements’ including your SSI. The rich will get richer and everyone else will end up with zip.

Trump didn’t put himself there, the shady figures like Bannon did. Trump is their instrument of change. He’s there to disrupt things, to break society apart, to be the cheerleader against the left, to be President for his base and his base only.

Then when he’s broken things up they’ll quietly replace him with someone different, someone to lead the new Right. Somebody much clever and ultimately more destructive.

But you’ll come back with your trite ‘ you’ve got Derangement Syndrome.’ You’ll cheer at the tweets mocking the left but you’ll never spend five minutes understanding about Bannon and the new Right. You’ll never question where that great new health plan is because you’re too busy cheering as Hispanics are led away from a workplace in shackles.

Yes, you’re the New America, but if you think you matter you don’t. You don’t fit into the world of Betsy Devoss, Jared Kushner or Wilbur Ross. That’s who wins. Not you.

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 19:08 EST

You are probably bright PL in some small way, but start your own Blog. This is not the right place fror your trolling and rhetoric.

Andresen
8/15/2019 19:11 EST

PL. I understand Border Collies are very intelligent.

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 19:32 EST

@matt trolling. Again the right trying to shut down discussion.

The right can say what they want, they can insult all that they want but someone from the left has the temerity to speak. Troll!

Perhaps we need to get a nice picture book made up for you about Bannon just so you can keep up.

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 19:44 EST

Thoughtful discussion is great, but you are an ass

nonames
8/15/2019 20:06 EST

Just let the poor Lost soul alone now Matt. He's proven himself many times over to be a thin skinned elitist. There's probably really nothing anybody can do except ignore him.

jo12208
8/15/2019 20:13 EST

Exactly

mattinnorfolk
8/15/2019 20:14 EST

I know you are right because they can not be saved : Thank you

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 20:26 EST

@nonames

‘Elitist’

Interesting. The President you follow is a self professed Billionaire and his policy guru an ex partner at Goldman Sachs.

Clearly two men of the people with your interests at heart!’

Idiot.

ponymalta
8/15/2019 20:44 EST

.Hi Fleetwood.
You wrote :

“The only was Trump gets re-elected given his dismal approval ratings (he hasn’t mentioned the latest Fox poll) is by frightening the populace that electing a Democrat will a) cause markets to crash and lose them all of their money b) lead to extreme socialism c) unregulated immigration including a welcome mat for criminals.”
I think the left is caught in its own bubble- yes he may use all those approaches, yet millions of Americans have reasons to wish to control the border and immigration, and considering how far left the Democratic party seems to be going- which I have even heard liberal commentators on CNN and MSNBC comment on- many average Americans may have a worry if they do not agree with those policies. Trump has dumbfounded the media and pollsters before. Even Nancy Pelosi seems to see the Green New Deal as a fantasy (though opposed to the wall she certainly has a wall around her house).
The division in America has been long coming- I remember the Reagan era and the frenzy he caused in the liberal media on many occasions and among the left. Obama era saw the same sort of derangement syndrome among the right similar to what we see in the Trump derangement syndrome today
Who knows the final result of these trade regulations, and if the economy keeps on a roll and unemployment stays low and salaries keep rising, surely Trump has a chance though I think it will be the most expensive and bitter campaign in US history- but I do think Trump will be the last Republican president.
My impression is the left just can’t accept that the average American between the coasts isn’t too concerned about transgender rights or Green New Deals, but are concerned about having a job and putting food on the table. They don’t need Putin to feel that way.

ParadiseLost
8/15/2019 21:36 EST

@andresen

My border collie is very clever but he still struggles to understand Betsy Devoss as secretary of education or that a handbag designer and a rather dubious real estate developer are the ‘best people’ in a population of 327 million to be Presidential advisors.

Edwinjcb
8/16/2019 00:09 EST

I wonder that, too! I wonder how "good" that dubious developer's advice can be since he can't operate some of his apartment buildings without getting cited by code enforcement people for rats and cockroaches!

www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-07-31/jared-kushner-rodent-apartments

ponymalta
9/9/2019 06:26 EST

Paradise Lost

Your August 14 post brought up a point often commented on in the US ( and Uk too for that matter)- whether reducing the influx of lower skilled workers ( especially with coming automation) will increase wages and whether Americans or Brits will do the type of low wage jobs migrant workers often do.

I am not sure how we would objectively quantify that, but brings up question of whether how in a country with labor protections is it justified that some workers do not have the same protections ? Your thoughts ?

ParadiseLost
9/9/2019 08:04 EST

On labor protections let’s first remember than it goes wider than whether or not an immigrant does the job. Remember Unions? They were demonized and destroyed by the Right and replaced with. Nothing.

Of course workers in a country deserve protection from cheap Labour coming in from overseas. But then equally workers have to be paid fairly. Picking fruit in the hot California sun is no fun and California is not a cheap place to live. But are Americans prepared, after getting used to cheap produce for so long, to pay for an American to pick the fruit for a fair wage and benefits? The Right Wing dream of the unemployed in Chicago upping to the West Coast to work for the rates undocumented workers get isn’t going to happen.

Why do hotel resorts in Florida need to recruit from Latin America for workers? Is the pay so high and the working conditions so good that no unemployed American will apply?

Corporate America played the game with US workers. How many on here (we’re generally an older bunch) found themselves on a list for job cut backs, a list that surprisingly seemed cluttered with others of the same age. 55 and out of work in the US? Good luck in finding another job.

And automation will just make the situation worse. People just don’t understand how far it goes. The annoying automated voice system at your bank is only a hint of what is to come.

The rich will get richer, Silicon Valley will jump all over peoples rights and make themselves obscenely rich. Populist politicians will stand up and promise jobs for steel and coal workers without even thinking about the coming problem.

Watch, if you have Netflix, the documentary ‘The American Factory’ a documentary about the Chinese taking over an old GM factory to make auto glass. You’ll weep for those older American workers caught up in a Chinese world of total focus on work and the replacement of the old by young and automation.

But if you want to deter people from coming to the US then help improve the conditions in countries like Mexico. ‘America First’ and ‘Winning’ doesn’t help. Helping your neighbors helps you.

Lastly the US has falling birthrates and ultimately where are all the workers going to come from to keep the country going as the population ages? Look at Japan years of stagnation because of that very situation combined with strict controls on immigration. Either your grandchildren need to start having kids again or the US is plain out of luck. Some say that Oil is the predominant resource, others water, but enough youth to have a productive workforce is critical. Today it’s who picking the fruit in California or cleaning the toilet in Doral. What comes next is far more problematic.

Wildstubby
9/9/2019 10:37 EST

I agree that corporate America becoming fat but also the Union's 'hierarchy' also dipped into that. As a person who has first started with OCAW then merged into PACE, and now 'sold' into USW, I can tell you first hand that we as union workers were sold bad set off goods, (not only my local, many across the country!). The merging of PACE with USW was done on the backs of the 'real' working men and women just so the fat cats in the USW can get fatter off of their coffers! Our last contract, let the company steamroll us, (like they did at another company site but not USW) down in another state and they had 3 years to prepare for the fight! If unions want to return to power, they need to do so by cleaning house and cutting off the head of the sneaks that reside in their mansion, (look at the USW one in Pittsburgh!) So don't sit there and tell me its Republicans becuase the Democrats are just as bad. The only difference is the Dems tell you things you want to hear but they don't act on them!

ParadiseLost
9/9/2019 10:59 EST

@wildstubby I don’t disagree that Unions had problems and in some cases were responsible for their own demise.

Try and find someway to see that documentary I mentioned. Part of it is about management tactics to stop people organizing. It’s very revealing in particular as then there’s a whole rash of accidents and safety violations as the new owners try to increase productivity.

Equally I don’t disagree that both parties were to blame, but if ‘new’ unions are to appear do you think it’s more likely under a Republican or Democratic administration?

My fear is that Unions are gone. The young these days seem accepting of their lack of rights and security of employment. I’m not sure that there’s anyone left to fight and as you’ll see in the documentary those who tried to organize were terminated.

JustSomeGuy
9/9/2019 17:08 EST

Mom and I were on the picket lines for the United Farm Workers, as you would expect with anti war, right wing extremists. Viva La Huelga! Cezar Chavez was opposed to the flood of immigrants coming across the border, he went to stop it personally. He felt it disadvantaged the workers already here and they were used to break his union. I still can’t drink Gallo wine, I just can’t put it to my lips.

I did a few days of temp work in the Teamsters’ headquarters in Washington DC. They had a lunch room. The other temp and I bought some food and looked for a place to sit. There was a room off the main room that was empty so we sat there. Shortly after sitting down a couple of very nervous people came in and told us to get out immediately, they were looking around nervously. Turns out it was the private dinning area for the big wigs, the proletariat were not allowed in there. All I could think was “Four legs good, two legs better”. But I was seriously biased against the Teamsters since they attacked the UFW organizers.

ponymalta
9/10/2019 05:29 EST

Paradise Lost

I think you raise an important issue about the future of unions. Notwithstanding the numerous criticisms that can be made of unions many employee benefits arose from union efforts- though of course USA often behind other advanced countries still. Friends in UK in Europe all have at least 4 weeks’ vacation a year, and fid it incomprehensible the idea of only two weeks’ vacation per year hah.
On the other hand listening to the democratic debates one can get the impression that if the Democrats win next year, there could be a massive increase in government involvement in the economy and regulations- so perhaps simply government unions may be on a strong upward trajectory

PFleetwood
9/12/2019 21:59 EST

It would be nice if unions weren't necessary. Sadly they are. We can't trust corporations to do the right thing. Unfortunately, unions are as capable of corruption as any other organization, from the police to the Catholic church. They all need sunlight, and regulatory structures that inhibit corruptive influences. Currently watching Dem debate. I found it better than the last 2.

ponymalta
9/13/2019 12:09 EST

Unions simply negotiate on behalf of workers , whether "good" corporation or a "bad" one I don't think the issue..

PFleetwood
9/13/2019 13:00 EST

Respectfully, that is not all they do, or have the potential to do. Check out the Principal/Agent problem in Economics. The Chicago school of economics discusses the capture of organizations, such as unions and regulatory agencies, by the entities they are designed to regulate, or negotiate with. Or other corrupt influences. Do you remember Jimmy Hoffa? They also have the potential to line the pockets of their own corrupt officials, to mismanage their own organization and inefficiently represent their members, to overreach with unreasonable demands and drive corporations out of their state or country. I was a member if AFSCME for many years. While I supported them they didn't seem to do much, though their executives were paid very well, and noone I knew who had asked them for help seemed satisfied. You have to keep an eye on them just luke every other type of organization.

PFleetwood
9/14/2019 17:01 EST

I guess I came in at the tail end of this thread. Strange not more interest. Some good stuff about unions earlier on I missed originally. Did anyone catch Julian Cadtro's jibe in Thursday's debate?

If you ever have time check out a thread on the Mexico site from last year - 'Effect of change in administration in Washington on lives of tourists and expats in Mexico' - ended up getiing shut down by Expat Exchange after over 2000 comments. Fairly entertaining at times. Lots of demand by those opposed to views of thread's initiator to have it shut down. "This is for people living in Mexico!"

BeerLover74
9/17/2019 08:42 EST

I'm not a Trump guy either, But it bugs me when I hear ppl spout out BS. I politely tell them I'm not a fan of Trump, BUT, in all fairness... like when ppl say he hates Mexicans. I remind them that Obama deported more ppl than Trump or George W. Or when ppl say he hates immigrant kids. I remind them that program was already in place, he just happens to brag about it. When ppl say he wants to build a wall. I tell them it's been there since the 90's, in Del Rio, Presidio, Tijuana, Juarez, etc. Some ppl don't believe it until they see google images or google maps.
I even defended Obama back in the day when ppl would rag on him. I'll do the same for Clinton and George W.

Elexpatriado
9/17/2019 08:54 EST

So do you think the US will bomb Iran in the next few days??

PFleetwood
9/17/2019 13:41 EST

Sometimes its a matter of context, and facts - particularly when cherry picked - alone don't tell the story. It is stupid to go after Trump if Obama was left alone for by supporters for the same thing. But context is also necessary.

PFleetwood
9/17/2019 14:35 EST

Who knows? Maybe less likely now that Bolton gone. I heard an opinion today that if drones came from Iran they would have to fly across Persian gulf and likely been spotted by U.S. naval vessels.

PFleetwood
9/17/2019 14:55 EST

Correction! The Straight of Hormuz!

ponymalta
9/25/2019 13:45 EST

First season was the Mueller probe, million spent, now the second season the Ukranian probe.

Does anyone think that all this money and time spent especially just a year before the next election will be beneficial for the country ?

Are there not more serious problems such as opiod addiction, controlling the border, violence in inner cities, lack of medical care- as opposed to Trump just being Trump.

I cant say I know the ethics laws or facts of the case to make an informed judgment, I just wonder what is the practical benefit of such hearings.

littlebhuddha64
9/25/2019 14:14 EST

I think it is money well spent.

CAtoMDE
9/25/2019 14:24 EST

I did not vote for Trump, I am not a Dem nor Rep per se, I read the transcript this morning, I watch CNN and Fox and other news channels, with this being said I hate the swamp, all of them and all of it, the BS that all the politics have and continue to drag up, for this reason looks like I will vote for Trump, not because he is a great president but rather to teach the pol parties a lesson that at some point you got to stop the BS that is damaging this great country,

and I know I am not alone with these feelings, so sit down and buckle up and get ready for a ride leading up to election time next year. This will hopefully send a clear message to the Dems that you don't think and act in the interests of the people.

What a freaking embarrassment to the world.

littlebhuddha64
9/25/2019 16:06 EST

CAtoMDE: BS! All of your posts are against the left! Who you trying to kid!

ponymalta
9/26/2019 09:07 EST

CAtoMDE

I read the transcript too, the impression is Trump has a good relation with the guy. and hardly does the comment about looking into Biden corruption rise to the level of an impeachable offense I would think to any objective observer.We have so many domestic issues like health care,opiod addiction, violence in cities like Chicago, it seems Congress should focus on real issues- just as previously the Republcan controlled congress voted how may times to repeal Obama care when they knew it wouldnt happen. Time for term limits.

testolas
9/26/2019 13:30 EST

I feel Politics on this forum does not have a place. I cam to this forum for help and give help on how expats can adjust life in Colombia.

Cali222
9/26/2019 13:35 EST

So totally agree with you, its like i was to go on a on about brexit...its selfish.we are in colombia not USA not uk.

snipehunter
9/26/2019 13:57 EST

Me three Cali.
I get all the politics I want on
YouTube videos. I start with
Nightly News with Lester Holt,
and go from there.

Elexpatriado
9/26/2019 14:58 EST

First of all, I woud like to say again, I am not a US citizen, and not a Trump supporter.by any means.

For those of you who wonder why Trump got in and why at the end of the day he may get in again in 2020, I challinge you to watch this video with an open, non-critical, non-partisan mind, keeping in mind who the canidates in the Democrats are, and the fact one of the leading contenders is Elizabeth Warren..who was a signee of AOCs "Green New Deal"..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QyXduteiWE&feature=youtu.be

I dont know why things have to be so polarized and why people cant have calm, distracted non partisan discussions on these matters.

I think it is impatience and stubborness (which we are all guilty of)

Elexpatriado
9/26/2019 15:02 EST

PL

"Old Rich White Men"

So there you go.. a VERY racist,, sexist ageist comment


But its ok tif they are old white males isnt it?

Do you actually have a clue ahat you are saying? Are you just a troll or are totally brain washed?

If you actually believe it, tinme to cancel your Guardian prescripcion and seek professional help.

Elexpatriado
9/26/2019 15:09 EST

Sorry PL, I try to be civilized, but when you insult my race age and sex, it is highly offensive.

No joking matter, Anybody would be offended.

I dont care if you are the same. Practice self derprecacion in private and not on internet forums.

nonames
9/26/2019 16:03 EST

LX! Well stated sir!

nonames
9/26/2019 16:10 EST

Dear Testy, You may have missed the "fine print" in the OP's post:
"A special thread for US politics discussion ! Maybe keep it away from other informational threads but here people cant rat all they want..."
So you see? There IS a place (one) on this forum for politics and many,many more places for you to post your advice on helping expats adjust to life in Colombia.
So please feel free to go do so.
Thank You! ~Nona Mes

Elexpatriado
9/26/2019 16:29 EST

In my previous post with the video, I meant "detached" not"distracted" LOL

cinparadise
9/27/2019 07:01 EST

If the Democrats vote to impeach, it'll end in the Senate. The whistle blowers report is all second hand and third hand hearsay, what he/she heard from individuals and what he/she has seen in the main stream media including the Washington Post, NY Times, Politico, The Hill, Bloomberg, ABC News, and others respectively. The trial in the Senate is a court of law, the rules of evidence apply, hence, hearsay is not admissible thus President Trump will be found not guilty.

Pelosi's speakership is at stake.

Though it will be pure entertainment watching the House and the main stream media completely meltdown.

Crank up the popcorn poppers!

Fun facts:

Within 24 hours after Pelosi's impeachment announcement on Tuesday Trump raised an additional $5 million without taking any action.

Within 48 hours after Pelosi's impeachment announcement on Tuesday the RNC's donations increased 608% without taking any action. Yes, that's six hundred and eight percent.

If the allegations of the whistle blower are so serious, why didn't the people informing the whistle blower file complaints themselves?

Democrat Congressman Al Green "If we don't impeach Trump he'll be reelected."

Ukraine President Zelensky wasn't aware of the withholding of the $391 million in military aide until after his conversation with President Trump.

Ukraine President Zelensky stated that there was nor quid pro quo or pressure in their telephone conversation at a meeting with President Trump following the UN conference in New York this week ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMfm54PEQyc ).

Pelosi hasn't held a vote for impeachment in the House due to lack of evidence since they are still looking for a crime.

Did former Vice President Joe Biden engage in quid pro quo with the Russians regarding the Russian prosecutor investigating his son's billion dollar deal with the Russians? You decide:

"I looked at them and said: ‘I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money,’” Biden said during a meeting of the US Council on Foreign Relations. He was referring to Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and former Ukrainian prime minister Arseny Yatsenyuk. Biden added that the prosecutor was then fired.

“Well, son of a b***h. (Laughter.) He got fired.”"

Here's a video of this admission, fast forward to about 45 seconds.

Video: Joe Biden Admits to Getting Ukrainian Prosecutor who Investigated Son Fired

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urTk6O4c0mU

Interestingly this same prosecutor was also investigating George Soros.

And for additional fun enter the following into Google Images:

joe hunter biden air force 2

And look at all of the photo ops the Biden's took on Air Force 2 while visiting Russia and China making deals totaling over $2.5 billion dollars. Imagine if President Trump did this with one of his sons!

mattinnorfolk
9/27/2019 08:49 EST

Elex, I cannot thank you enough for the youtube on Climate Change. I learned more in 45 minutes then I have in 15 years. Its nice to see someone acknowledge it, but has practical applications about how to attack the issue, instead of saying to ban cows and planes. He was very balanced so I doubt if you're a Hannity or AOC person you will like it very much. Thanks for the education, and I hope more can give 45 minutes to get educated better on this important topic.

Wildstubby
9/27/2019 10:50 EST

The sky may fall on this one but Elex, you finally made some comments that I can wholeheartedly agree with you on!

Wildstubby
9/27/2019 10:51 EST

Now don't get a swelled head!

Vikingo
9/27/2019 11:27 EST

The president should know by now that the White House is infiltrated with Democrats out for blood.
That phone conversation was a careless move.

Democrats know they can't win the next election, their only solution is impeaching the president.
Anyway, Democrats must be hoping for a miracle in the Senate, Republicans will never impeach their own president.

And hopefully all of Biden's shenanigans in the Ukraine will come to light, that would eliminate him from being a presidential candidate..

Chattaroy
9/27/2019 16:20 EST

The US hasn't had a competent honest President since Dwight. But you guys who obliviously whitewash the Trump tragedy astound me.

No doubt right now he is stroking himself and dreaming of the most repulsive memorial library in the history of mankind with his name in big gold letters.

I'm contributing a heavy duty commercial urinal to be placed on his grave. The world is going to lining up to piss on it.

DeniseLR
9/27/2019 17:24 EST

Don't know about no competent honest Presidents since Ike - I was 6 - but I agree with you about the rest CRoy. I didn't read the second half of your post initially.

TextoMex
9/27/2019 18:03 EST

Good idea, and no one takes anything personal. It's McConnell. :-)

TextoMex
9/27/2019 18:10 EST

Only when it becomes obvious to the Democrat's what o'bama's true intentions were, and his absolute involvement with everything that smells like rotting fish.. He's going to want to flee the United States.

spikerivet
9/27/2019 22:16 EST

Cin Paradise---If the Democrats vote to impeach, it'll end in the Senate.

I don't think the dems have any illusions about that. They're watching Trump slip in the polls (now high negative ratings, that are hard for candidates to rebound from) and hoping for Republican defections.

CP:The whistle blowers report is all second hand and third hand hearsay, what he/she heard from individuals.--- The trial in the Senate is a court of law, the rules of evidence apply, hence, hearsay is not admissible thus President Trump will be found not guilty.

Wrong, all moot points. As for the hearsay argument the content has been verified by Maguire in his statements and no less than the President himself. The impeachment is not a legal process, Its totally political and unless there's a change in the equation it will fall strictly down party lines in the Senate.

CP: Pelosi's speakership is at stake.

No time soon. She's been a restraining influence, and if Trump was to come out on top in this. She could say to her party "I told you so". I assume you're probably playing pundit, and it's true if Trump won in 2020, she will be gone.

CP:Though it will be pure entertainment watching the House and the main stream media completely meltdown.

CP: Yeah, like watching the vote on Clinton for lying about sex? The main stream media has no illusions about this either.They won't be profoundly disappointed. As far as this damaging the Dems irreparably for 2020? I don't know, I think the tribes have pretty much gone to their corners.

CP: If the allegations of the whistle blower are so serious, why didn't the people informing the whistle blower file complaints themselves?

You obviously don't understand how this "whistle blower thing" works. Because they would lose their jobs, and could ultimately face prosecution or persecution.

CP: Ukraine President Zelensky wasn't aware of the withholding of the $391 million in military aide until after his conversation with President Trump.

So you're saying the President of Ukraine who has contended he needs support to fight against Russian interference after they already seized Crimea wasn't aware of an aid package from the U.S. that can be found out online from any number of U.S. news sources, yet he wasn't aware? That's the silliest thing I could imagine.

CP: Ukraine President Zelensky stated that there was nor quid pro quo or pressure in their telephone conversation

And what do you expect him to say? Your Presidents trying to extort me? Please bring on the aid package! Are you really that naive?

CP: Did former Vice President Joe Biden engage in quid pro quo with the Russians regarding the Russian prosecutor investigating his son's billion dollar deal with the Russians? You decide:

I'm familiar with that. That prosecutor was prosecuting the company before Biden's son ever got there. Biden brags about it because he knew no one can touch him. Unfortunately though, there's no smoking gun. If the everyday cronyism and privilege that goes on between leaders is exposed and Biden's candidacy is hurt because of that. I have no problem with that at all.

DeniseLR
9/27/2019 22:26 EST

Too much to address all these Fox talking points. Isn't it interesting thought that all the second or third hand reporting by the whistleblower,
supported by the way by a retired Admiral and former Navy seal, has been confirmed by all the information released by the WH? And now the new ambassador to the Ukraine appointed by Trump and evidently told to expedite Crazy Rudy's political mission, has resigned. Tick, tock, tick, tock. Keep your posts a little shorter, please. Too many points to address, for me anyway.

DeniseLR
9/27/2019 22:41 EST

I get confused sometimes here when I read some outrageous comment, respond, and then realize the person I am critiquing is quoting someone else. One thing I believe firmly, anyone who at this point is still enthusiastic about this President - his heart is in the right place and his tweets are crude but he is just venting and doesn't always mean them, etc. - is either seriously misinformed, not too bright, straight up evil, or possibly a troll or bot. Generally not worth engaging. He lost me last year when he sided with Russia over our own Intelligence Agencies. If he hasn't lost you yet .... I just don't know what to say.

nonames
9/27/2019 22:51 EST

Hey Dee, How about you keep your posts as short as you want and let those of us who have no problem reading enjoy the long ones ,OK? Thanks for understanding.

DeniseLR
9/27/2019 23:07 EST

Little man, you have nothing but childish comments and insults. I certainly wasn't addressing you. I can't stop you but have nothing more to say to disrespectful children.

nonames
9/27/2019 23:17 EST

Dee, I have no idea why you're referring to me in connection with the president. You may very well be confused in which case it may be better to just sit back and relax. Or could it be me? Have a nice nice Mrs.D, wherever you are.

DeniseLR
9/27/2019 23:21 EST

Apologies for the last post. I don't want to encourage any more stupidity than we all have to deal with daily. I would like to think, getting back to more serious politics, that everyone has a point of view that deserves a hearing. But I firmly believe, as do many or most Americans, that this President is really bad for the country, despite the economy, which isn't so great anymore. It's not that disillusioned whites in the U.S. dont have a point. But this guy is manipulating them. And slowly, gradually, folks are starting to see the light.

cinparadise
9/28/2019 07:55 EST

Spikerivet,

You Democrats haven't been this upset since Republican President Lincoln took away your slaves!

It's clear that you're upset by the way you launch ad hominem attacks towards me but fail to present any facts.

You reference poll numbers, are those your facts?  Really?  In 2016 the polls had Hillary Clinton winning by a landslide.  In fact the New York Times reported that she had an 85% chance of winning the presidency and MSNBC reported that she had a 99% chance of winning the presidency.  Surely you jest.

Now this is really going to hurt.  It's obvious you didn't watch the entire hearing where Congressman Ratcliffe clarified Maguire's the use of the word "credible" with regards to the processing of the complaint.  He predicted that the main stream media would interpret it as "researched" and "found to be true" which was not the case.  Review of the current headlines in the main stream media proves Congressman Ratcliffe's prediction, it's a feeding frenzy with all of the them reporting that President Trump is guilty of all of these crimes!  Then why don't they bring an impeachment vote to the floor of the House?  Maguire's role is to evaluate complaints to see if they're "credible" as in "complete" to move forward for processing.  Maguire made no statements as to the integrity of the content of the complaint only the fact that the criteria that multiple sources were referenced and again, the integrity of the sources at that time were irrelevant.  Imagine how many complaints their office receives from lunatics on a daily basis.

Here's an analogy.  You complete an employment application at a place of business where the standard practice is that they only accept completed applications.  The acceptance of your completed application does not guarantee employment.

You mentioned Bill Clinton, The funny thing about his case, the special counsel that investigated him recommended articles of impeachment and thus charged him.  That did not occur with the conclusion of special counsel Mueller's investigation of President Trump yet they operated under the same exact guidelines.  However, Mueller repeated that you can't indict a sitting president (but you can recommend articles of impeachment and charge them) but also kept retracting this statement.  The simple fact remains no crime was found in the investigation of President Trump.

As for the whistle blower's account, it's customary for whistle blowers to report first hand knowledge of events not hearsay.  If that were not the case, millions of people who view television news would be filing reports.  Think about it.

You wrote:

"The impeachment is not a legal process"

Yes it is, they need a crime, the impeachment law explicitly states they need a high crime or misdemeanor. 

You wrote:

"(impeachment) Its (sic) totally political"

Political?  Like what, we don't like President Trump so we're going to impeach him?  Gotcha!

You didn't address the facts that I outlined, why hasn't the House held a vote for impeachment?  Simply because they haven't found a crime to charge him with.  At this point in time they could only launch an "inquiry" to look for one.

You sure do a lot of projecting by implying that President Trump expected a pay back as in a quid pro quo from Zelensky.  Do the police arrest people for attempted murder who purchase baseball bats?  Or how about the purchase of a gun or a knife?  Perhaps where you come from, but not in the free world.

So you find fault with President Trump inquiring about investigating and ending corruption, I guess because it involves a Democrat hero, Joe Biden?  I bet if it was a Republican you'd be all for it.

You wrote:

"Unfortunately though, there's no smoking gun."

Let's review the facts:

"I looked at them and said: ‘I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money,’” Biden said during a meeting of the US Council on Foreign Relations. He was referring to Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and former Ukrainian prime minister Arseny Yatsenyuk. Biden added that the prosecutor was then fired.


“Well, son of a b***h. (Laughter.) He got fired.”"


Here's a video of this admission, fast forward to about 45 seconds.


Video: Joe Biden Admits to Getting Ukrainian Prosecutor who Investigated Son Fired


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urTk6O4c0mU


Again, I guess this is okay where you come from!

As Speaker Pelosi stated yesterday (Friday), it's going to take time for them to make a decision on voting to impeach, she indicated that perhaps by year end.  Why?  Because they still need to find a crime to impeach President Trump with!

I will add, again, at this rate there's a good possibility that the Republicans will win back the House in 2020.  Though not as devastating as Obama's loss of 60 seats, the 40 seats the Democrats won were all won by 1% margins with Democrats thinking that President Trump was a "Russian Double Agent" working for "Vladimir Putin" which we all now know to be proven false.

And more fun facts:

Perhaps you may want to look for alternative news sources.  Google, Facebook, et al are not news sources and thus can publish anything they feel free to in addition to filtering out news that offends them.  Google and Facebook have repeatedly and openly admitted to filtering out negative information about the Clintons, Obamas, and pretty much anything that goes against their liberal ideology which violates no laws.  Here's one of many internet search site that does not filter:

duckduckgo.com

President Trump is getting his wish by being impeached and then ultimately exonerated by the Senate all due to the gullibility and desperation of Democrats.

The fact that Democrats are completely ignoring the facts in this case doesn't surprise me, look at their history, for centuries they egregiously enslaved black people completely ignoring the fact that they have equal rights.

I understand your concern as a Democrat, as Congressman Al Greene clearly stated, your only hope of ousting President Trump is through impeachment because at this rate he's going to be reelected in 2020.  Unless of course the Democrats successfully manufacture a crime.

mattinnorfolk
9/28/2019 09:39 EST

Very well said Cin paradise,, and thank God for Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King. It seems They never got it out of their system, as now they want all of us to be owned by them via Washington DC.

littlebhuddha64
9/28/2019 10:12 EST

CP: Blowhard!

srhsnh1807
9/28/2019 10:26 EST

https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/27/intel-community-secretly-gutted-requirement-of-first-hand-whistleblower-knowledge/

This is the Deep State in action, and they've been caught.

Federal records show that the intelligence community secretly revised the formal whistleblower complaint form in August 2019 to eliminate the requirement of direct, first-hand knowledge of wrongdoing.

Coincidentally, the "whistleblower" offering his second hand gossip, filed his complaint in August 2019. Hmmmmmm.....

Secondly.

Adam Schiff was running around parroting the EXACT claim made by the whistleblower two weeks before Congress was allegedly notified by the inspector general of the intelligence community of the existence of such a complaint.

Quoting Adam Schiff on twitter two weeks prior: "Trump is withholding vital military aid to Ukraine, while his personal lawyer seeks help from the Ukraine government to investigate his political opponent."

Was the whistleblower working with Schiff BEFORE the process had played out legally? This raises serious questions about leaks from the whistleblower or someone else in the intelligence community to Schiff.

This all stinks to high heaven. This is nothing short of an attempted coup.

littlebhuddha64
9/28/2019 12:25 EST

Denise: I wasn’t addressing you either. I was addressing the long winded post by CP.

DeniseLR
9/28/2019 12:46 EST

Lb64- I'm with you on that, by the way. These long winded posts just aren't worth addressing, point by point. It's the 'kitchen sink' approach. Throw enough stuff together and somehow it may look better than it really is. It was the way I used to answer essay questions in College when I didn't really know what I was talking about!

littlebhuddha64
9/28/2019 14:29 EST

Denise: Here, here!

DeniseLR
9/29/2019 13:15 EST

PM (I'd be interested in hearing what the genesis of that nickname is)- What do you think about all the money spent going over the millions of Hillary Clinton's emails? Evidently they are still at it and some have been retroactively reclassified.

PittsburghSound
9/29/2019 17:37 EST

Andrew Yang is going to be President some day. It may not be 2020 but he's young and bloody brilliant.

DeniseLR
9/29/2019 18:06 EST

I like Yang. Really like Buttigieg. Interesting, smart, honest, a vet. Just the antidote for Mike Pence. Pretty sure he'll be back. I believe he's in the top 5 right now. I don't get why anyone would want to run for President but I'd vote for him.

ponymalta
9/29/2019 19:46 EST

DeniseLR

In response to the genesis question walk into any Colombian market or café and you will see .

A far as your other question, first she should have been treated as any other employee would have been- if for not other reason to set an example. But the matter was simple, it didn't take millions and millions of dollars and time especially after they realized they couldn't nail her. Time for term limits.

(I never did understand what her qualifications were for the job. Degree in History or International relations ? She spoke a few foreign languages ? Had lived or done business overseas ? )

DeniseLR
9/29/2019 19:56 EST

Seriously? I have wondered for some time if you are really a U.S. citizen. What were her qualifications? Senator for one thing. She's an attorney. Former first lady. Who the hell are you talking about?

WhoaNellie
9/29/2019 20:09 EST

Pony Malta is produced in Colombia and is a great malt (non-alcoholic) beverage, like a soft drink but with a malt flavor that is quite pleasing. I got used to drinking it first in Puerto Rico, along with Malta India and probably several other brands I don't remember.

Along with Postobon (to make a refajo) I consider it one of Colombia's great contributions to the world of beverages ja ja...no, I'm not kidding!

WhoaNellie
9/29/2019 20:17 EST

Oops I mean Colombiana, not Postobón, for a refajo...but they are both good, a nice change from the more well-known and widely-marketed soft drinks you get in the States. But aside from its use in making a refajo, I'd rather drink the wide variety of fresh-squeezed fruit juices you can get on the street...

srhsnh1807
9/29/2019 21:00 EST

The Democrats want to impeach a President for trying to expose a crime & then elect the person who committed the crime.

nonames
9/29/2019 21:22 EST

"Former first lady"...a qualification for President? Seriously? Now Dee, aren't YOU the one who didn't want to encourage stupidity here? Then you refer to the "disrespectful children" as if they don't have enough to deal with already.

Chattaroy
9/29/2019 22:45 EST

Sure S1807...they're probably the same crazies who expect us to believe that someone actually left an American flag on the moon or that the earth is round. Try to get some sleep...maybe they'll just go away.

DeniseLR
9/29/2019 23:03 EST

There is some truth in the fact that being a First Lady doesn't necessarily give one any relevant experience - look at Melania. But if you look at HRC's time in the White House it was quite different. You do the research if you want. I'm not sure how 8 years in the Senate on relevant committees isn't more relevant than many or most other private sector or government positions.
Noone (except Trump) in a high level position like Secty of State goes in knowing (or thinking he knows) everything, and all have to rely of course on the expertise of their staff as well as their own. No College courses, however desirable, can prepare you for that. As far as the term limits question, if being a member of Congress or a Governor would disqualify one from becoming Secty of State or President not too many of our recent Secretaries or Presidents would have been elected or appointed. That's not how term limits work. I'm sure that isn't what was meant.
Anyway, apologies. I tend to get a little angry sometimes when an accomplished public figure, however much I may diasgree with her at times, is denigrated because of some arbitrary assignation of certain college courses or business experience as the latest ultimate qualification for high level public service. That should disqualify most of the Trump appointees and folks in his Cabinet, unless you watch Fox, or maybe Newsmax. Bolton at least had experience and an Ivy League degree.

ponymalta
9/30/2019 05:37 EST

Denise,

I admit I am totally unsure how being an attorney or first lady qualifies someone to be Secretary of State.

Is it un-American to think for someone to be Secretary of State they should have extensive actual foreign experience of some sort. Are you being serious ?

ponymalta
9/30/2019 05:45 EST

WhoaNellie

I agree with you about the fruit juices, and the cane sugar drinks as well. I cant say Pony Malta too healthy, but in absence decent Root Beer occasionally hits the spot !

cinparadise
9/30/2019 07:06 EST

Srhsnh1807,

So let me get this straight, the Democrats had no legal basis to go after President Trump so they changed the rules for filing Whistleblower complaints?  Now they will prosecute someone over hearsay?  I can see it now:

"I attended a KKK rally and everyone was telling me that black people are inferior and it's a crime that they have rights in our country."

Democrats will be coming out in droves thinking they're going to get their slaves back!

Hear, hear.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 07:25 EST

It is difficult dealing with this topic because half my posts don't get put up, it seems. Ponymalta, your comments about HRC ignore the 8 years as Senator and many years involved at the highest levels of government. They reveal the same sort of latent sexism you displayed
when, not knowing anything about her, you made denigrating comments about AOC and her educational background. But I wouldn't be surprised if you supported Ben Carson's appointment at HUD because he sure knows how to make and sell a pizza!. Sad. And when comnents are made about the sh.. show Trump has made of U.S. foreign policy you underplay it or make some thinly veiled false equivalency argument, finding it amusing that all the libs get so upset. At this point everyone should be upset and if you aren't you certainly don't want the best for the United States.

cinparadise
9/30/2019 09:47 EST

DeniseLR,

Hillary Clinton accomplishments?  Really?

So just having a job is an accomplishment? In this video a state department spokesperson couldn't name a single accomplishment of Hillary Clinton while she was at the state department:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9RTOeY7mI4

There are complete videos of the entire hearing on Youtube where Congress grills the spokesperson, they gave her ample time but she couldn't come up with one!

You wrote:

"AOC and her educational background"

So just having a college degree in economics makes you smart? Maybe that's why America's student loan debt tops $1.6 trillion! Why did she work as a bartender before serving congress? That degree sure came in handy! She got elected by having a pretty face and going door to door offering free stuff for everyone.

You wrote:

"But I wouldn't be surprised if you supported Ben Carson's appointment at HUD because he sure knows how to make and sell a pizza!"

You're confusing 2016 presidential candidate and Godfather's Pizza founder Herman Cain with Ben Carson the world renowned neurosurgeon who currently serves as the secretary of HUD.

President Trump's foreign policy? China is in crisis after President Trump's trade tariffs so much so that last week China dropped all of their trade tariffs on US products and is begging President Trump to return to the negotiating table!

You wrote:

"At this point everyone should be upset and if you aren't you certainly don't want the best for the United States."

Record unemployment in every category with record lows ever recorded, wage increases, tax cuts for everyone, welfare rolls drastically reduced, Pell Grants for African Americans attending summer school which Obama ignored for eight years, and there are many more.

And for the record, I'm not a 1%er and I saved thousands on my income taxes thanks to his tax cut so don't believe the main stream media that only the 1%ers received a tax cut.

I guess it's all of that fake news in the media that you're viewing!

nonames
9/30/2019 09:56 EST

Now Dee, aren't YOU the one who stated: "It's the 'kitchen sink' approach. Throw enough stuff together and somehow it may look better than it really is. It was the way I used to answer essay questions in College when I didn't really know what I was talking about!" And now you're telling us: "...half my posts don't get put up." Well, it may have worked in college...

nonames
9/30/2019 10:16 EST

CinP. Thanks for pointing out Dee's blaring confusion regarding Dr. Carson
"the world renowned neurosurgeon' and
Mr. Cain the pizza vendor. I never could kick a guy while he's down but some of these folks never let up with their vitriol.
I understand this is somewhat of a hobby for Mrs.Dee as she has been a prolific "kitchen sink"
poster on forums worldwide. Well, this is the designated thread for it. So be it!

JustSomeGuy
9/30/2019 10:43 EST

I fully understand why people dislike Trump, he is not a good person. What I can’t understand is why they like Ms Clinton, she is not a good person.

Ms Clinton recalls “Landing under sniper fire” in Bosnia when she was First Lady. This would be impressive except it was a lie. She actually was met by a charming 8 year old who gave her flowers and read a poem.

As a lawyer Ms Clinton helped her husband survive the many allegations from the women he abused over the years. He only had to pay $850,000 to one of them. She is an excellent attorney.

As a Senator she voted for the Iraq war, leading to thousands of deaths and ongoing misery, how can that be considered a qualification?

As Secretary of State she pushed for the destruction of Libya. She views the ongoing misery there as a success. “We came, we saw, he died, ha ha.”

Everyone who supports Ms Clinton knows these things, they just don’t care. That is frightening. Bernie Sanders is so much better than Ms Clinton and he would have won. Why was that awful person put forward in his place?

Everyone from Malcolm X to Thomas Sowell has identified the problem but they are both black men so they are ignored. I think Malcolm X put it best: “The white liberal is the worst enemy to America, and the worst enemy to the Black Man.”

ponymalta
9/30/2019 11:22 EST

Hi Denise,
An interesting discussion, and I do think relays one of the issues making rational debate difficulties. partisanship.
1.”Look at Melania”
Not sure the point, she is filling the role, with elegance, a role that has been typical for many First Ladies, under rather trying circumstances- and no one is claiming her experience qualifies her for a cabinet position. I would think one would emphasize with her on a personal basis as I would think even the most ardent Trump supporter would recognize what a personal embarrassment he must be. Trying to deal with the often insulting criticism, while trying to raise a child she apparently is devoted to, with an embarrassing husband, I tend to give her the benefit of the doubt.
2. Being ‘American”
I still am rather mystified if one questions what particular and in depth experience Clinton had for the job of Secretary of State that affects one’s citizenship status..
3. Clinton Qualification to the Secretary of State
Again, you do not directly answer why the normal experience and attributes one want in a Secretary of State wouldn’t be applicable in Clinton’s case. Certainly having a degree in History or International Relations or Strategic Studies would be a plus, a knowledge of foreign languages, experience living overseas, direct experience having negotiated overseas, would all be the normal things one would be looking for.
Certainly whether one agrees with her judgement or policy positons, no one would question her basic intelligence and knowledge of domestic policies issues- for example her in-depth knowledge of health care issues she worked on as First Lady.
3. Term Limits
No I do not think serving in Congress should disqualify someone from appointment to other branches of government. Simply term limits for time to be in Congress (a) so at some point their focus less on being re-elected (b) I hold the opinion that we have a dysfunctional Congress that is unable form both sides to move the country forward towards solutions to key issues- I blame both parties for the obstructionism of the past 10 years.

4. Trump Appointees
I am unsure if the quality of Trump appointees has much to do whether Clinton had any serious experience over decades to be a Secretary of State. However Carson’s appointment seems bizarre, and maybe I am unfair but Perry I would think would score very low on any IQ test.
Nothing to apologize for, how else do we learn than not considering other points of view? I do not think it is denigrating Clinton in any pejorative sense to point out her lack of experience to be Secretary of State- I would hazard the opinion that she had much more experience and suitability to be President than Secretary of State.

spikerivet
9/30/2019 11:40 EST

.Oh Denise, But when I politely asked Pony about his ties to the U.S. He cited no less then a 200 year ancestry out of of Ohio! which I saw as an overcompensating tell.

.I've always suspected Pony was probably a Brit masquerading as an U.S. citizen. He doesn't seem to have any American cultural cues. But he googles a lot.

He's an affable person, and I'm not completely sure, So I haven't felt like calling him on it.

ponymalta
9/30/2019 12:11 EST

Denise , in response to your second post. It is not "latent sexism" to question Clinton's suitability for a particular job,any more than it is 'latent racism' to question why Carson of all people was given a Cabinet post.

As far AOC I already stated my opinion, and yes if she thinks unemployment is low because people have 2 jobs I do question her level of understanding

.As far being amused by liberals with Trump Derangement syndrome guilty as charged ! I also was often amused by the fanatic anti Obama/Clinton crowd.

As far as not being American because (a) I am not fanatically opposed to everything about Trump (b) question the criteria of cabinet appointments, Mcarthyism on all sides seems to be returning to favor.

If you look at my posts you will see I hold some positions on the right- and some definitely on the left.

ponymalta
9/30/2019 12:24 EST

spikerivet

this is getting amusing. one isnt american if one doesnt get emotionally outraged by trump or question clinton's qualification for a particular position.

spikerivet
9/30/2019 12:38 EST

I already stated why I find your story fishy. And I could go on further.

I wasn't going to go there. But since you brought it up and you're here now. You were brought up in I assume the 50's or the 60's in Ohio.?.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 14:06 EST

PM- I agree with spike on all counts. You tell me what qualifies for Secty of State. Clearly serving on relevant committees in the Senate or direct involvement for 8 years in Clinton WH doesn't do it. Maybe a B.S. degree in Int Relations from some for bull sh... for profit "University" would float your boat. ? Then you would just complain about the quality of U.S. education. You brought up all the HRC qualification stuff. Inaccurately. I just wondered why you weren't crying about the $$$$ spent on her emails the way you were about $$$ spent on Mueller investigation or impeachment inquiries. Of course I already know the answer. Meanwhile your boy in the WH is talking about civil war if the Dems win. Disgusting.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 14:11 EST

CP- You are correct about my confusing Cain and Carson. My error. Everything else is BS. I didn't say she was a GREAT Secty of State. I said she was qualified. I don't read all your posts because of the length and inaccuracies. Respectfully, tighten them up. I will try to be respectful and open minded, but it ain't easy sometimes.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 14:20 EST

JSG- I didn't say I loved everything about her. I just brought up the cost of her emails and responded to an attack on her qualifications. The people that sat out the election because they couldn't vote for Bernie are responsible for the results of the election. Kudos. When you go crazy with the negatives. as you seem to do, perhaps you could go back and look at her career objectively and include some positives. Now, if you've read this far - I blame her in part for Trump's election and her husband's antics for Bush defeating Gore. I voted for both Clinton and Gore. If Dems had been elected we wouldn't have had the Iraq war or Donald Trump, who now seems to be advocating open civil war.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 14:25 EST

Nonames: Little man, I am going to say one last thing to you. Have the cojones to come up with some ideas of your own instead of these childish attacks, como un perrito que ataque desde atras.

ponymalta
9/30/2019 14:27 EST

spikervet- hah this starting to sound like the birther issue !

i had written in response to a silly question about my nationality that my father's family had been in the same village in ohio since around 1800( though they had arrived in the new netherlands long before.

i have lived in three states ohio,california and idaho but due to my fathers job also overseas growing up.

your prior guess correct i have also lived in the Uk as well as australia.

if i recall arose because i had the audacity to question the US education system.now questioning what extensive foreign policy academic or work experience clinton had.

ponymalta
9/30/2019 14:27 EST

spikervet- hah this starting to sound like the birther issue !

i had written in response to a silly question about my nationality that my father's family had been in the same village in ohio since around 1800( though they had arrived in the new netherlands long before.

i have lived in three states ohio,california and idaho but due to my fathers job also overseas growing up.

your prior guess correct i have also lived in the Uk as well as australia.

if i recall arose because i had the audacity to question the US education system.now questioning what extensive foreign policy academic or work experience clinton had.

ponymalta
9/30/2019 14:27 EST

spikervet- hah this starting to sound like the birther issue !

i had written in response to a silly question about my nationality that my father's family had been in the same village in ohio since around 1800( though they had arrived in the new netherlands long before.

i have lived in three states ohio,california and idaho but due to my fathers job also overseas growing up.

your prior guess correct i have also lived in the Uk as well as australia.

if i recall arose because i had the audacity to question the US education system.now questioning what extensive foreign policy academic or work experience clinton had.

nonames
9/30/2019 14:32 EST

Now THIS is interesting. Trying to ascertain Pony's claim to American citizenship. Crazy but entertaining nonetheless! Well, I too come from a long line of Americans and I believe the guy. I like his posts. Agree/disagree is immaterial; he presents an articulate view and makes for an enjoyable/informative read. Thanks PM!
Oh Spike?
I grew up in the NE, 60's/70's.

dbarnwell
9/30/2019 14:57 EST

Are there any other anti-war posters who support Tulsi Gabbard for President?

ponymalta
9/30/2019 14:58 EST

nonames

you have to admit some crazy conversations on this forum. hundreds of posts and arguments on EPS insurance ( my eyes glaze over and still dont understand).Infinite discussions on minute exchange differences. now whether some is american or not.

hah how does one show that ? maybe by quoting line 11 of important information on a US passport, something that few of us as Expats do ?

Here is one (maybe) that anyone who was a boy in the late 50's or 60;s in America would know the answer to that as far as I know a boy in another country wouldn't know- what would a American boy do to generate noise while riding a bike ? (I never saw a boy in UK,Australia or Italy do the same). Or was beef jerky thin or thick ?(this may be an urban question).(This is like American soldiers asking potential German spies, was Walter Johnson a pitcher or a catcher )

Best though to avoid questioning AOC so one doesnt get one's nationality questioned !

.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 15:02 EST

Ponymalta- I don't care where you are from. I just find your whole affect hard to believe. Too many details about things that can't be verified, no details about things that can, like where you went to college. You said you worked in Menlo Park and commuted, I believe, then said you were still in school - not college if I remember cofrectly. Denise isn't my full name but I am an American living in the Southwest.
You and some of your fellows on this post are very good at deflection. I asked about Hillary's emails and you managed to deflect that to a question about her qualifications as Secty of State. Good job. It is certainly troll like behavior- just keep the conflict going. Your sad figurative alter ego nonames just comes in behind you and does what he can to focus on whatever small point or trivial error he can. Now, we can go on about HRC's Secty of State qualifications, or AOC or whoever, but some of these guys who mix up fact, fantasy and perjoratives should be out in their front yards yelling at whoever walks by to get off their lawn.

nonames
9/30/2019 15:06 EST

Yepper!
Thanks for the fond memories there PM.
As a Red Sox fan I put NY Yankee baseball cards on my wheel spokes with clothes pins to beat the begeebas outta 'em! Many years later I was in a card shop, just out of curiosity, and couldn't believe the very same cards were 4 figures!

ponymalta
9/30/2019 15:17 EST

DeniseLR

Well I guess one thing we can agree on. While I think eh email thing should have been looked into, if nothing else to set an example it was dragged out so long and cost a fortune, far past knowing if anything would probably result. Though I think both parties guilty of these sort of shenanigans these past years.

I still think he showed common sense and honesty when Bernie said " enough of these damn emails".

ponymalta
9/30/2019 15:24 EST

DeniseLR

our words "latent sexism" "disgusting" "your boy in the WH" or the perennial"you must watch FOX news"do not seem to be illustrative of an objective attitude.

I just listed what would be the common attributes one would think any foreign policy position would call for especially the top position. If lack of academic or work background in the field is not important then why hire anyone with experience for any job ?

ponymalta
9/30/2019 15:33 EST

nonames

you pass the test you are an official american !

yea some of those cards worth a fortune- what gets me is the absolute insane variety of the new cards coming out,like the cars with a fragment of a jersey. and like coins some of the insane minute grading issues. plus the volatility of some cards now via ebay etc.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 15:34 EST

Lots of lies here. We all know about baseball/playing cards on bicycle spokes. Could have seen it in a movie. Wouldnt be surprised if done in other countries. It's okay if you are or aren't an American - not the point. But if you pretend to be one that's different and it makes one wonder why. At times, while you claim to descry incivility, you have a very polished manner of encouraging it. I know there are plenty of people in the US who still think Trump walks on water. Fools IMO. Your approach seems to be an above the fray pseudo objectivity that simply, ultimately encourages inflammatory rhetoric. Now, I tried a quiz on the Mexico site trying to find out if this guy, Ramzfan, was really an American. We put together a bunch of questions about Rams football for him. He answered them but it took over 30 hours to do it. He claimed my post all of a sudden went to Spam. Hard to say or prove anything, and I sure don't say he was a foreign agent. Maybe just an overly aggressive fool.
By the way, I like people from all countries, but we all know there are people on the internet, whether agents or misguided types like nonames, trying to stir up dissent in a country that used to be considered a beacon, a shining light around the world. They - the agents at least - need to be identified. Can't do much about the fools.

nonames
9/30/2019 15:38 EST

Hey Dee? You may want to back off and regroup. Your clearly outmatched. Or better yet: why not just mosey on over to one of your other forums where you stir the same pot.

ponymalta
9/30/2019 15:54 EST

Denise

Any for the record I worked in Menlo Park 704 Oak Grove, and commuted there- only college if I recall in Menlo Park is Menlo College which I didnt go to.

The pejorative words you are now peppering your posts with "disgusting" "sad" "troll" "yelling from the lawn" hardly seem conducive to productive civil debate. In fact remind me a bit of Trump's approach.

And in regards to dear Hilary, Only brought up one question- and not her performance after she got the job. And as I wrote I would ask the same question about some Cabinet secretaries today. I am not tied to a blanket opinion on the side of either party.

nonames
9/30/2019 16:04 EST

Dear,Dear, Dee, I just read where you try and demean me by calling me Little Man, no ideas of my own, childish attacks, calling me a dog in Spanish...whatever. Didn't work. Nope. Nada. Figures though. I simply call out the Hypocrisy of you and your ilk by recalling
(Copy&Paste) your OWN words in an effort to discredit the,mostly, trash you regurgitate from all the other forums you frequent. You can't take it because it's true so you resort to demeaning people as if you're some type of elitist. How dare we question you! Typical though. Just saying, no hard feelings , we see it all the time.

littlebhuddha64
9/30/2019 17:19 EST

I love how all the trumpftards are avoiding discussing the orange mushroom’s qualifications. A game show host? A failed businessman? So qualified to be president!!! The only thing that got him elected was a big mouth and his incredibly stupid base. No fan at all of Hillary but she is way more qualified than the tangerine toddler.

Chattaroy
9/30/2019 17:45 EST

lb64..."Orange Mushroom", "Tangerine Toddler" - those are great! There should be a thread just for Trumpty Dumpty nicknames.. It would probably crash the site.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 17:45 EST

Well, let's have a civil debate then. Call off your butt boy and we will discuss issues rationally.

One thing I can say, change your handle to a woman's name and watch the way you are treated differently on these sites. And the worst perpetrators are these sad, little right wing jerks who really hate women (esp minorities) and will lower themselves as far as they need to to make even the slightest effort to tear them down. Cowardly, nauseating, despicable. Congress is for regular folks as much as anyone, but if a woman is elected it is her pretty face, not her message. Look at the way the Rethugs interviewed the hispanic Obama nominee to the Supreme Court. I don't get why you are living - or claim to be living - in a country the President you seem to have wet dreams about nightly considers a sh... hole country. Sad.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 17:46 EST

Agent Orange, my favorite!

mattinnorfolk
9/30/2019 17:58 EST

I wanted to put the link on the forum for the go fund me page to get his face on Mount Rushmore, but I think some of you would not appreciated it, and unlikely to raise much money. It certainly seems like something that could be a good idea, I’m just not sure how his hair color would clash with the others on Mount Rushmore . I am one of those morons that hesitantly voted for him last time, but certainly look forward to voting for him this time around .Saludos!

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 17:59 EST

I don't remember any addresses of places I worked 40 years ago. Although I do remember an office building on Main St. Downtown Los Angeles. I went to Cabrillo College, Santa Monica C.C. and UC Santa Cruz. Tulane and UNM for graduate school. Y Vd.?

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 20:47 EST

I absolutely agree. I don't really get why her use of a private server was disgraceful. Stupid, careless yes. I understand the previous Secty of State Gen. Powell had done the same thing. I could be mistaken. But Comey went around his boss to announce an investigation, not a crime or a criminal charge. Unprecedented. Possibly changed a close election. And look at the way he was repaid by Trump. Before HRC entered the primaries she had a 70% approval. I never liked her the way I did Obama but def preferred her over Trump. As I said before I blame her in part for Trump's election - her arrogance and tone deaf approach - and her husband's foolish antics for Gore's loss to Bush. But I voted for both Clintons.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 20:50 EST

And my response is that you are both incompletely describing the job of Secty of State and inaccurately describing HRC'S qualifications.

giershift43
9/30/2019 21:12 EST

Bringing up the emails again is just another attempt at distraction from the impeachment investigation. The emails were over blown from the start. Trump’s minions cheer at a mention of the emails and they don’t even know why.

giershift43
9/30/2019 21:12 EST

Bringing up the emails again is just another attempt at distraction from the impeachment investigation. The emails were over blown from the start. Trump’s minions cheer at a mention of the emails and they don’t even know why.

DeniseLR
9/30/2019 22:16 EST

One thing we're not seeing so much anymore is the tiresome litany of all the great things Agent Orange has done. Economy may be tanking, revolving door in the WH. some Republicans finally speaking out after this Ukraine fiasco, 47% of country in favor of impeachment. Tick tock, tick tock.

nonames
9/30/2019 23:06 EST

Real classy post Denise. Do you drink much?

ponymalta
10/1/2019 07:15 EST

Denise,

I don't claim to be living in the USA as I do not any more. As far as 'butt boy' I give him credit where credit is due, and criticize him where he doesn't do as well.

ponymalta
10/1/2019 07:32 EST

littlebhudda,

besides the use of trump like language and insults ( which do not help in the dialogue), who is avoiding what- no one raised the question.

so what were his qualifications : executive and management experience of an organization, negotiating experience in US and abroad ( his ability to get out of jams even though his own making), business knowledge ( experience and he went to Wharton) reputation for getting this done, and policies some though necessary for the country.

against that no legislative experience, his incredible admission he doesn't like to read, obnoxious pesonality at least in his public persona,evidently limited ability to concentrate or absorb complex issues. no government experience, limited regard for evidence when shooting off his mouth, and a total lack of class.

anyway i do not recall anyone writing that he had the qualities and experience one would want in a president but if achieves his objectives and it benefits the country
i guess that is how he will be judged.

i would guess though he was elected because he wasnt hilary, he wasnt a democrat, was a protest vote against political correctness, and connected more to many working class voters who are desperate for change. how someone who brags he doesnt like to read ever got elected is indeed quite incredible.

ponymalta
10/1/2019 07:43 EST

Denise,

Really, being civil and to disagree with you prompts your Trump-like use of insults and accusations ? And that is productive ?

ponymalta
10/1/2019 07:55 EST

Denise,


No is denying she is a very intelligent person, nor have the raised the issue of what she actually achieved or didn't achieve.

But do you really believe that somone being considered for Secretary of state shouldnt have related experience and qualifications- experience managing similar size organizations, actual experience living or working overseas, knowledge of foreign language, related academic background. How are those unreasonable qualifications to look for !

spikerivet
10/1/2019 10:44 EST

Pony: Walter Johnson??? I didn't know you were 120 years old! So you could be forgiven for forgetting that HClinton was once a Senator from the nation's second most populous state. But consequently, it ignited about an 8 page back and forth about her that at least I didn't find all that interesting, though perhaps entertaining. But admittedly, I'm a little burned out on Hillary. heh heh
Pony, Ok, Uncle! After 3 identical posts. We'll put that aside.

First off, let's talk to the Ukranian prosecutor who was discharged. You'd think he might have an axe to grind against the West. But he completely exonerates Biden's son. From 1:00 -1:17.

https://youtu.be/or3i8iu_l90

Incidentally it's good to see the President's supreme confidence in Judy Ruliani. Another good Trump appointment!


We've now researched and found out that Biden interceded in Ukraine at the wishes of a coalition of nations because the Ukrainian prosecutor was not aggressive enough! The complete opposite of the Trump spin! How could that be!


Starting at 9:44. This is reluctantly admitted at 10:15 ("I get that") by no less than Republican firebrand and Pony Malta home state hottie, Jim Jordan in his encounter with Jake Tapper, while trying his best to distract that point throughout the interview.

https://youtu.be/pjSeAVB2gqs

Jordan certainly feels no obligation to defending a whistle blower, as certainly the last thing Jordan himself could ever be accused of being is a whistle blower as he looked the other way when informed of a fellow coach who was an active pedophile. When confronted as to his cowardice, Jordan passed off his knowledge of incidents as just "locker room talk". Locker room talk??? What kind of B.S. is that? No more ridiculous and evasive than the B.S. that's now sucked up everyday. (Tapper at 9:55" And I would think somebody whose been accused of things in the last year or two would be more sensitive about throwing out wild allegations". Look at the Jordan's reaction.) I guess we should be honored that Jordan has brought his unique brand of douche baggage to our Congress?

Any website that's peddled these false narratives will also be 360 degrees wrong in the future and should be avoided.

P.S. As a look, I think Jordan's "his and her" double front comb over sucks! But that's just me. heh heh

DeniseLR
10/1/2019 12:46 EST

PM - Back to the real world.
What do you think about Pompeo's qualifications? And now he is refusing to let State Dept employees testify before Congress. This is happening right now. I don't disagree with your ideal description of some of the qualifications of Secty of State, but I've found from experience with you that even if I go to a relevant government website and obtain an extensive, detailed job description, then carefully research every single bit of HRC's relevant experience, paid and otherwise, you will never admit to even being the slightest bit incorrect. Not worth my time. And it is, like giershift said, a deflection from what is happening right now. You certainly seemed a bit more generous with the brief incomplete comparison of Trump's pluses and negatives. At this point I don't hear all the effusiveness from all the loyalists about his unorthodox, decisive style. As C. Rampell said, this isn't negotiating a deal for his condos with Granite Counter Tops. There are large organizations and there are large organizations, often very business specific.
Where did you attend College, by the way?

WhoaNellie
10/1/2019 12:46 EST

Wait a minute - just to set the record straight - the Ukrainian prosecutor investigating corruption in the Burisma Holdings company who was discharged in March 2016 - the one who was fired because of Joe Biden's blackmail threat to withhold $1 billion in US aid to Ukraine unless he was canned in 6 hours - was the prosecutor-general named SHOKIN.

Lutsenko, who in the video link you posted said he found no wrongdoing by Hunter Biden, was his replacement - approved of by Joe Biden.

Lutsenko himself was fired this August, 2019, by the newly-elected President of the Ukraine, Zelensky, elected April 2019. Zelensky was elected at least partly on his willingness and stated position of investigating past and present corruption in the Ukraine.

DeniseLR
10/1/2019 13:25 EST

Nice post SR. Blessedly concise and accurate.

spikerivet
10/1/2019 13:37 EST

Whoa Nellie! If you're right. I stand corrected. But why would Guliani have gotten in touch with him ten times? It would seem he'd be trying to get in touch with Shokin. Wouldn't he be the one with the potential dirt that Guliani seeks? Why hasn't anyone heard from him?

I have seen another clip of a woman Ukranian official who claims the investigation found nothing on Biden's son. But I suppose it isn't clear which prosecuting staff she was part of.

WhoaNellie
10/1/2019 14:25 EST

Giuliani has to go through official government channels - everyone would (rightly) raise a stink if he as a foreigner, a US Citizen, was seen to be trying to go around them by contacting a former, fired Ukrainian official who also could be seen to have an agenda and a desire for revenge.

And we just don't know if it's true that he (the other fired prosecutor who replace Shokin) was contacted 10 times, just because he says so...the days when you could count on someone to tell the truth are long gone, if ever they existed...maybe he was contacted 10 or more times because he wasn't giving any truthful answers...

I would not characterize this as seeking "potential dirt" but instead as seeking justice, seeing that justice is done, that we find out exactly what did happen and to what extent there was interference in our elections, and if anyone broke laws. It is the President's job to do so - he took an oath to uphold our Constitution and is the chief law enforcement officer. To not try to find out about something so big as this would be a dereliction of his duties.

There are obviously some who want to keep the facts hidden. I support transparency.

This article presents many of the facts without too much editorializing or taking sides:

https://heavy.com/news/2019/09/viktor-shokin-affidavit-biden/

To most people with scruples it would appear to be at the very least, a troubling conflict of interest that when you are VP and making official trips to Ukraine and China, that your son magically gets these great jobs for which he is not qualified but is paid enormous sums, both from the Ukraine and China...

DeniseLR
10/1/2019 15:16 EST

Giuliani is a private citizen. What difference does it make whether he goes through official channels. People trade on their parent's names all the time. That means it is a bad optic, but Hunter is a private citizen and can do what he wants. If Biden had stopped his son there would be another narrative that he was warning him off to protect him. Get over it. Already been investigated.

giershift43
10/1/2019 15:45 EST

Clinton email is beating a dead horse for distraction. It was blown out of proportion then for political gain. Most Trump supporters that I have met seem to have an extreme resentment for educated women. Sometimes I think it is a desire to say being uneducated is superior to vein educate and is full of jealousy. One thing for sure Putin was afraid of Hillary. That says a lot.

spikerivet
10/1/2019 16:09 EST

Whoa Nellie:To most people with scruples it would appear to be at the very least, a troubling conflict of interest that when you are VP and making official trips to Ukraine and China, that your son magically gets these great jobs for which he is not qualified but is paid enormous sums, both from the Ukraine and China...

And who would disagree with that? Cronyism at 50K a month, is peanuts. Conflicts of interest, Politicians being bought and sold, having corporate lawyers dictate legislation to them verbatim goes on all the time.

Political corruption is at a height as never before. We need massive ethics legislation. Or better yet, to get the money out of politics.

They'll never get anything to stick on Biden, But they can embarrass his campaign, and things are marginal enough for him, that that may be enough..
.

littlebhuddha64
10/1/2019 22:15 EST

Pony: Total BS. Tell us again how objective you are. I’ll get some popcorn

littlebhuddha64
10/1/2019 22:19 EST

Whoa: Dude, lay off that Fox koolaid! get some facts straight before you start blowing BS.

ponymalta
10/2/2019 01:41 EST

denise, well at least we agree her qualifications were not ideal for the iob.i did not comment on her job performance.

ponymalta
10/2/2019 01:59 EST

WhoaNellie

My two cents is in both the Biden and Trump issue in reference to Ukraine there isn't enough information out there to make any sort of definitive judgement.

One can connect the dots and come up with a conclusion Biden was doing something shady but there may be more to the story either in his defense or not- and as far as I know in his long career Biden hasn't attracted allegations of corruption.It does seem a bit strange if there were something so shady he would be bragging publicly about his 'tough guy' roll.

I don't know if there is enough information to say that Trump's actions rise to the level of impeachable offense, and certainly hard to see a year before the election how all this will help the country- on the other hand Trump's career does show him quite willing to go beyond what many would to get his way, so questions certainly in order.

Until more hard evidence emerges I would have though more important to debate why the US policy in Ukraine for years seems to be deliberate to antagonize the Russians through arms sales and other actions.

DeniseLR
10/2/2019 10:56 EST

It is not true that the dots have not been connected in the Biden case. It is an old story that has been resurrected for political purposes. There is an article in the Intercept - no fan of either party - and another in Forbes, I believe. Check it out, not hard to google. I'd put links up but I don't have a computer here.
Note how PM will go on about HRC or Biden but doesn't respond freq to comments or questions about what is going on in Washington right now. Odd.

DeniseLR
10/2/2019 11:22 EST

There is a civil war going on in the Ukraine with pro Russian rebels armed by the Russians. That is one reason the U.S. is supplying arms to the Ukraine government. Are you serious?

DeniseLR
10/2/2019 11:32 EST

The piece in the Intercept is from 9/25 by James Risen. ' I wrote about the Bidens and the Ukraine years ago. Then the Right Wing spin machine turned the story upside down.'

ponymalta
10/3/2019 04:44 EST

Denise,

I am not sure you read my post closely, or perhaps poorly worded on my part.Hah I thought I was defending Biden. What I meant one is one can take a lot of different dots and connect them without knowing if there is really a connection- Biden has had a long career and as far as I can remember one without accusations of corruption, I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

As far as what is going on in Washington right now seems every day new revelations from either side so I really have no opinion either way
as I would think dust needs to settle a bit for a proper evaluation of what occurred. Is that so odd one would want further further information before forming any sort of opinion ? It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Trump did cross the line in some fashion, but whether his actions rise to the level of impeachable offense I do not know. I do know all these investigations whether of Clinton and the emails or Trump about Russia
are costly. distract from real problems like health care, and just divide people more.

I am unsure what question about US politics you have posted I havent responded to.

ponymalta
10/3/2019 04:59 EST

Denise,

Yes i am serious, the idea of shipping arms to Ukraine and antagonizing Russia further doesn't seem to achieve much in the short term- and in the long term I would think we would want much better relations with Russia to counter China.

Swedes, French and Germans have all crossed the Ukraine fighting Russia- is it a surprise Russia has concerns about Ukraine's status and relations ?

spikerivet
10/3/2019 10:39 EST

Pony's motto is "When in doubt, evoke Hillary Clinton"

Pony's armored himself with quippy little buzzwords like "the squad". Which is straight out of Trump's mouth. And he's also the only one here to evoke the "Trump derangement syndrone" which has become his staple and is straight out of Sean Hannity's mouth. I call that dance the "Fox Trite" as if somehow evoking a phrase excuses him from engaging in any real substance.

Even though Pony has been brought up with the same political traditions and witnessed the same political ethics as me. Why is it no surprise to me that he thinks there's "nothing to see here" in Trump's newest escapade, because after all that's just "Trump being Trump" right Pony? Or "he's different kind of president" or "the president has his own style". Now at last, maybe he's backing off from that?
And how many such incidents? Of course Trump continually coming back to the map with a sharpie to include Alabama on the hurricane path, that's just "the President's style?". Now Trump threatening and Pony's still carrying on the denial to this late stage, and still characterizing others?

Pony, You are "Trump Derangement Syndrone.

'Peach Dat!

ponymalta
10/3/2019 11:17 EST

Spikerivet
I am not sure you have read my posts well as it seems you have made p a ‘straw man’ you are responding to , which I get the opinion both sides are doing these days.
1, “when in doubt evoke Hilary”
Actually I raised one point , whether her experience was the sort one would want in a secretary of state, and didn’t comment on how she actually performed in that role..The subject of her emails arose ( not sure I raised the issue) and I just responded.
2. “Armored himself…buzzwords like ‘the squad’.:
Maybe I am wrong but I don’t recall using that word.
3. “ he thinks there is nothing to see here.”
Actually I wrote simply my opinion is the last two weeks has been full of all sorts of news reports, and that I just think more needs to known before passing definitive judgement either way.
4. ‘Trump being Trump”……backing off”
I am not sure what I am backing off of ? That Trump has his own unique style for better or worse ?
5. “Pony’s still caryig on the denial “
I have no idea what denial you are referring to,

nonames
10/3/2019 11:23 EST

Pony, you know you're wasting your time responding to Spikey don't you?
He's not interested in any debate. It's a manifestation of hate.

DeniseLR
10/3/2019 11:32 EST

Appreciate your response PM. We are in a very dangerous time with the behavior, increasingly demented, of a 'President' who has said and done so many outrageous, disgusting things it is impossible to ignore, unless it is intentional. You underplay his behavior, avoid commenting about the qualifications or performance of Trump or Pompeo, and seem to side with Russia's behavior in Eastern Europe. What could be odd about that?
The Dems pass bill after bill on infrastructure, healthcare, gun control that are killed in the Senate. There are a couple of hundred Representatives and it is possible to multi task in the House.

DeniseLR
10/3/2019 11:34 EST

And again please read the brief piece by James Reisen about the Biden's in the Intercept. Nothing there, it is a right wing talking point. You are damning him with faint praise, IMO.

mikedanbury
10/3/2019 11:42 EST

Pony glad you started this thread :)? Miss the days of sparring about USA education? This responses on this thread are a little too personal for me to join in.

DeniseLR
10/3/2019 11:42 EST

PM: I haven't, tho I found your disparagement if AOC concerning, heard you use the term "the squad".
What do you think about Giuliani calling himself "the whistleblower" and Trump (not knowing Rudi is the whistleblower now) calling the real whistleblower a traitor.
One big error the WH has made in this fiasco. Biden spent years in the Senate and working with the Senate and - he has been criticized unfairly for this by some of his primary opponents - made some close relationships with the other side of the aisle. Many of these people like Grassley are still there and the Senate will deal with impeachment when it has been passed on to them from the House.

spikerivet
10/3/2019 12:08 EST

Pony Malta said: I read the transcript too, the impression is Trump has a good relation with the guy. and hardly does the comment about looking into Biden corruption rise to the level of an impeachable offense

good "relation" with the guy??? There's a deal going on here!
"and hardly does the "comment" ----use precise language, it's not a "comment", it's an empowered, levered, request. Some call it a shakedown. There's a context here, a difference in status!

Pony, this is the most serious charge ever leveled against a sitting President, and he admitted it! Arguably if it's not, it's the most push button! And that doesn't bode well at all.

Nixon and Watergate didn't involve consorting with foreign countries about effecting American elections. Citizens feel allegiance to the sovereignty of their home countries, even if you don't, and don't want other countries meddling, and certainly don't want their own President soliciting that meddling.

DeniseLR
10/3/2019 12:25 EST

Spike- absolutely! And now he is standing on the WH lawn asking for help from China! Demented. I doubt if China wants to see him in for another term.

Vikingo
10/3/2019 13:01 EST

Republicans who would side with the Democrats, meaning voting for impeachment, will never get reelected and they know it.
The entire impeachment process would be a waste of time and money.
Democrats are trying for Trump to loose votes and Trump will try his best to make their most favorite candidate unelectable and make Democrats look bad to boot.
It's a desperate election campaign by the Democrats to regain power, nothing more.

DeniseLR
10/3/2019 13:23 EST

47% of country now in favor of impeachment. Lots of "desperate" folks out there.

ponymalta
10/4/2019 01:35 EST

mikedanbury

Hah at least ( hopefully) got some of US political comments out of other threads.

I agree some of posters get personal and mean-spirited let alone impolite. Calling people liars, the president of the USA 'butt-boy" etc. - but does help explain the state of politics in USA today But then again Obama had a lot thrown at him as well so I don't think either side behaving too well in recent years.

spikerivet
10/4/2019 11:58 EST

The Don(ald )--- Tomorrow's tweet

Right now, Thanks to me, the economy is better than ever before. Better than it's ever been. It's unbelievable. It would be a crying shame if something had to happen to it like.....civil war
But if so, bring it on, we have all the guns, and all the tough guys.

The Donald to the public yesterday: I think you should also look for VP Pence's conversation. Because he had a couple of conversations also.
The Donald to his aides: Pence better not try to bail. If I go down, Pence goes down too. But I'm not going down!

The Donald to the public yesterday. China are you listening?
The Donald to his aides: F-ck the protesters in Hong Kong. I'm tired of hearing about them. If Xi sweeps in and mops them up-so what? If China turns up anything with the Bidens, let's just f-ck this tariff thing too, and say we won. Who would know the difference? The market's will love it. We'll go to all time highs. This whole China thing's been a pain in the ass anyway!

DeniseLR
10/4/2019 12:45 EST

??.!!!

cinparadise
10/4/2019 13:02 EST

Spikerivet,

Just for you:

Democrats to each other:

"We're screwed."

Orion95
10/4/2019 13:21 EST

It is odd to observe the posters that support a President who has, despite being a Republican, created the largest deficit ever, publicly and privately asks and pressures foreign leaders to provide dirt on political opponents, yells and has temper tantrums in public and by many accounts in private, fires and hires important individuals with the regularity of a agricultural employer of exploited immigrants, and uses his office to enrich himself and his private businesses.
We are in an existential crisis and he doesn't believe in global warming. He alienates our allies and sides with Russia against our intelligence services, and calls our free press fake news.
I don't know where their hearts really lie or where they actually live but one or two of the posters on this sight certainly act like Russian assets. Is it, for example, in the interests of the U.S. to let Russia have it's way in the Ukraine? It certainly isn't in anyone's interest to tiptoe around the outrageous behavior of this President. He is a loose cannon at the helm of the most powerful nation in the world. And he is a nihilist who will take dowm anyone who opposes or appears to oppose him.
But by all means lets talk about the Bidens, Hillary's emails, more Benghazi probes. Wait until someone else rises above Biden in the probes and watch the lies they have in store for her. This is not good for anyone in the U.S. or the world and if you have the remotest idea it is you need to take a good, long look in the mirror.

Orion95
10/4/2019 13:58 EST

Have you ever tried to save, or spoken to someone who has tried to save, a person drowning? They will fight you, try to climb up over you, scratch and claw and in their panic do everything to drag you down with them. That is the Republican Party in the U.S. Old but no longer grand.

littlebhuddha64
10/4/2019 20:25 EST

Never argue with stupid republicans. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Paraphrased from Mark Twain

Orion95
10/4/2019 20:29 EST

I like the one that says "Never argue with idiots. Onlookers may have trouble telling the difference!"

Chattaroy
10/5/2019 01:43 EST

You nailed it Spike!

ponymalta
10/5/2019 04:23 EST

Hi Denise,
As far Senate Republicans delaying bills proposed by the house my two cents is (a) McConnell is a walking example of why term limits are needed for Congress (b) I don’t know the bills in question in enough detail to judge whether they should have been adopted (c) I would think most people consider Congress is very slow, doesn’t form consensus because of partisanship, and both parties have engaged in the behavior you describe. (d) as far as health care I have stated several times in prior posts it is outrageous the Republicans for years have obstructed or to proposed a solution to the lack of access to affordable medical care for millions, and the crazy cost of medical care in the USA. (I do not have a view that either party is always right or wrong like some do).
As far as positives and negatives of Trump I have commented on both, again several times. As far as qualifications I made a side comment which you responded to and I answered. As far as Pompeo, I don’t know very much about his background to comment or even have an educated guess though I suspect – per the criteria I mentioned- there were probably better experienced candidates.
I regards to Trumps personality and behavior there is much to criticize. He has some successes, he has some initiatives under way such as the trade negotiations (which prior Presidents don’t seem to have had the guts to confront China) we will know later whether successful, great unemployment numbers and my understanding is real wages are starting to inch up- and the areas of states I know better wages have gone up for the working poor, admittedly anecdotal evidence and his helping business with regulatory issues. Against this as you well point out the seemingly revolving door of employees to an extent implying poor management skills, one has to question someone in his position who brags he doesn’t read much, and certainly he has obnoxious behavior and comments denigrating his opponents and use of words like calling people liars, and insulting names- though I wonder how it is often those most opposed to him exhibit similar Trump-like behavior.
I don’t know but maybe you do , how he has ‘enriched himself’ though I have often wondered why the Democrats don’t focus in more precisely on the billings of Trump properties when used – any company I ave ever worked for if an employee directed business to a business they had an interest n, they had to get permission, show the billings were at market rates- and I don’t know in detail government ethic rules butI would have thought such billings should have been at cost.
As far as questioning US foreign policy in the Ukraine and whether the short or long term effects are beneficial for the US that is a reasonable question-and not unreasonable considering China’s growing strength to advocate closer relations with Russia than the current situation. If I recall Nixon faced similar criticism with his polices concerning Russia, and China for that matter.
I admit I don’t think the sky is falling because all the ‘existential’ threats.
It is a negative of course the growing national debt, but both parties have spent money like drunken sailors. If I am correct the last time we have an annual surplus was when Clinton and Gingrich compromised with each other. Maybe less extreme animosity and name calling on all sides is in order
For the records I didn’t vote either for Trump of Clinton.

ponymalta
10/5/2019 04:32 EST

hi denise, if i used the term the squad then i stand corrected.we disagree about AOC who has stated publicly that the unemployment rate is low because people are working two jobs. though to be fair she has received a flood of attention and is very young and even seasoned politicians make gaffes, so maybe she actually has some idea of how unemployment is calculated. i think she also deserves credit for being willing to speak her mind and shake things up.

Leelet
10/5/2019 08:47 EST

I have been looking in on this thread rather intermittently, because it is filled with too much rambling, bickering and personal insults. In addition, some of the thoughts expressed don’t seem to be factual or well founded.
BUT, there is an actual fact of history that need to added to this conversation about Ukraine.
When the Soviet Union dissolved in many separate nation state, Ukraine was left with a significant amount of nuclear weapons from the Cold War. The United States, along with Western Europe, persuaded Ukraine to give up these weapons, assuring them that we would guaranty their safety from the Russian Bear.
Consequently, we (Europe and the US) have an obligation to assist Ukraine in defending it's borders. We, jointly, failed Ukraine in Crimea.
Putin is of the belief that any territory that was once a part of Mother Russia still belongs to this failed political, economic Motherland and will stop at no lengths to regain countries he believes belong to Russia. Especially, one with such strategic geographical importance as Ukraine.
So, as you argue who’s right or wrong - just remember, giving Ukraine the money should never have been a question.
And when Joe Biden threatened to withhold monies, he did so with the backing of the US government and the Western Europen powers. It was not an arbitrary decision.
As you quibble amongst yourselves, keep these thoughts in mind OR read your history.

littlebhuddha64
10/5/2019 10:29 EST

Another voice for the delusional right. Joe Biden never made such a threat. However, trumpf did in an attempt to hurt a political rival.

WhoaNellie
10/5/2019 10:57 EST

littlebhuddha64 wrote:

"Never argue with stupid republicans. "

This, from the person who wrote approvingly of another post,

"Here, Here!"

I bet he/she/it doesn't get it...

mattinnorfolk
10/5/2019 11:23 EST

One thing being left out of the conversation about the release is the bashing of Trump and the Ukraine president about Merkel and the lack of funding by Germany on military aid and him them trying to get more. They are the third largest contributor after the USA and EU, but refuse that any of their aid go for military purposes. They are no doubt frightened Putin will turn the gas pump off one cold winter. Let us see how the IG report, the 2016 investigation by Barr and the Attorney in Connecticut as well , and Ukraine play out and let all the chips fall where they may. I am much less concerned about corruption in the Ukraine or any other country, as I am about it in Washington on both parties. Let us be clear this impeachment has nothing to do with Ukraine, but has everything to do with two things. The first item is they want to hopefully get to them, before Barr and the IG get to Obama's rogue outfit and at least soil Trump as much as possible. They know they cannot win on impeachment, but the Republicans have many more open seats in just red, or purple states this election cycle. The Dems have virtually no vulnerable seats. The second objective is all Dem candidates have pledged to get rid of the Trump tax plan, ad dramatically hike rates on individuals and corporations. By weakening Trump's hand in foreign negotiations he will unlikely reach any agreement on tariff's going forward. If corporations hold back spending over fear of Socialism, and no tariffs our reached soon, it is highly likely we will be in a recession. They will blame Trump and say capitalism is a failure and why we need socialism as they ran the economy off the road again. They are happy to throw the little guy off a cliff with higher unemployment, and worst wages to achieve power. They truly have a disdain for lower income Americans and people of color as their policies have been most destructive to both economically. I have 4 children that are 39, 37, 26, and 24 years old. They have never experienced a healthy economy and are now for the first time seeing raises and companies competing for their labor. Bill Clinton was the last great economy, and likely the last Democrat Capitalist ever. We have two generations that have never seen a vibrant growing economy and unemployment at a 50 year low. They certainly did not learn about capitalism in high school or in college, only how it has failed their generation. If Trump shows them how successful it can work done correctly, he potentially will be FDR to these generations and wreck the Democrats for the next 50 years. We will have at least one seat if Trump wins as Thomas will retire so he can appoint his successor, and there potentially could be more. When you add it all up we are in for a wild ride. I am happy for discussion on ideas and thoughts, but the personal insults on this thread is incredibly juvenile, disrespectful and uncalled for.. I voted for Trump not because I liked him, but I look at actions and not words. I loved how President Obama spoke and he said many of the right words, but it's some of his policies I didn't like. The Republicans have many failures and especially health care, gay rights, and will lose voters on abortion and gun reforms. Who amongst us doesn't have gay friends, family members, or know people that have had abortions. My closest friend was saved by Obama care, and I know its not perfect, but we need healthcare and other issues badly. Get you asses to work in Washington and start by working on turn limits! Sorry for the length and my inner city school grammar.

cinparadise
10/5/2019 11:27 EST

These facts are certainly going to hurt.....


Ukraine (12978) – Treaty on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters


Treaty signed at Kiev July 22, 1998


https://www.state.gov/12978


In addition to President Trump's authority to ask any head of state for assistance he also possesses the backing of the above mentioned treaty explicitly allowing him to do so with Ukraine. This treaty was passed by the US Senate including at the time Senator Joe Biden and subsequently signed by President Bill Clinton.


Oh the irony!


Where are the Democrats on impeachment? They haven't taken a vote for impeachment on the House floor..... maybe because they haven't identified a crime!


In fact, they haven't even taken a vote on the House floor for a formal inquiry. What are they afraid of?


Yes, I know, President Trump "asked" for something from the President of Ukraine however didn't offer anything in return but the Democrats are implying that he did in "mafioso" fashion. That's their belief. Too bad their "beliefs" won't be admissible in the Senate trial. You can't make this stuff up!


What's next, will police officers (registered Democrats of course) begin arresting people for attempted murder for purchasing baseball bats because they "believe" they're going to go murder someone?


The fact remains that the Democrats never imagined in a million years that President Trump would release the transcripts of the Ukraine call which completely discounting their "obstruction" claim which is why they prematurely launched the impeachment inquiry.


And for the record, the Ukrainian official that investigated and exonerated Joe Biden for any wrong doing in the firing of the Ukrainian prosecutor was in fact the one that replaced the one fired and was recommended by Joe Biden for his replacement.  No bias here!


Where in the constitution does it state that a sitting president must turn over their personal or business income taxes? It's true, congress may ask for them but only if a crime has been committed or it's in relation to some form of legislation. And the state of California went to court in an attempt to amend the constitution. Isn't that special!


And here's the audio recording of Adam Schiff trying to purchase nude photos of President Trump from what he thought were two Russian government officials:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Rut64GDgA


What a fool.


And what did Hillary Clinton accomplish as a New York Senator? Well she didn't keep her campaign promise of bringing 200,000 jobs to upstate New York. In fact, she didn't pass a single bill!


As for her email debacle, imagine going to a government office to obtain an official copy of say your child's birth certificate in order to apply for a passport only to be told that their records were on some employee's server or in a filing cabinet at their personal residence and then discovering that the files and/or documents couldn't be found and were3 destroyed. Yep, she hid and ultimately destroyed a part of US history that we'll never recover. which was in violation of many laws. Nothing that a 20 minute meeting on the tarmac between her husband and the sitting attorney general couldn't resolve.


It's going to be an interesting 2020 presidential election cycle!

DeniseLR
10/5/2019 12:01 EST

Leelet- Thanks for the facts. I believe many of us were aware there were agreements in place to aid in the defense of Ukraine but I had forgotten about specifics. I do believe using the term quibble while true frequently may unintentionally trivialize at least some of the efforts taken by posters to get the truth out there as best they can and refuse whenever they can to stand up to lies, propaganda and misinformation.

DeniseLR
10/5/2019 19:13 EST

The Ukraine dynamic is an interesting one. I have been doing some additional research. The U.S. is the largest supplier of military aid to the Ukraine but 2/3 of all financial aid comes from the E.U. I have yet to check on the actual amount of oil and gas Germany receives from Russia and how truly dependent Germany is on them. I do know Germany is one of the largest economies on the planet, along with the U.S., China and Japan while Russia is a second tier economy that appears larger because of all it spends on its military. It does not belong based on the numbers on the G7 and its GDP lies a little above Mexico and on a level with Brazil.

DeniseLR
10/5/2019 21:06 EST

PM - AOC is def young and inexperienced. She is also not slick, devious or polished. I appreciate your comments. I don't agree with all of her positions but she has more balls than 90% of Congress and is unafraid to speak her mind. While less than 5% of the U.S. workforce work 2 jobs that is still I believe around 10 million people. And the gap between rich and poor is growing. Sad when Walmart employees qualify for food stamps. Anyway, there is an interesting piece on AOC's assertion in Forbes by Erik Sherman who, while acknowledging AOC'S error discusses the way the CPS (Current Population Survey) accumulates data and demonstrates the # of people who work more than one job may not be quite as low as the standard estimates suggest.

DeniseLR
10/5/2019 21:43 EST

PM I think only fools think only one party is all right and one wrong. The political stances of parties can easily reverse themselves - Nixon started the EPA and had a universal healthcare plan, Teddy Roosevelt was a conservationist and Lincoln freed the slaves the Dems of the times owned. But we can generally support one or the other, as do I.

There has been substantial and regular reporting of blatant Trump violations of the emoluments clause.

The sky is definitely falling if you believe the science. And it will particularly hurt our children. The evidence is everywhere and it is substantial. I can't stand with the only major political party of a major developed nation that denies climate change. It reminds me of the Church's opposition to Galileo.

Anyway, I wonder if you meant you didn't vote for Clinton or Trump but voted for another candidate like Gary Johnson or you just didn't vote.

ponymalta
10/6/2019 08:55 EST

DeniseLR

Well at least we can agree on that,that neither party uniformly has the always right positions or approach.

I couldn't bring myself to vote for either candidate.

Quite correct Nixon had some liberal policy initiatives, ( I wont start in on the EPA, I have dealt with them). I am attracted on various levels to the universal basic income idea, and definitely think the Republicans ae way off base about medical care- though I am curious why Sanders falls to the trap of universal care costing so much more, the UK spends far les as a percentage of GDP on health care, with not too much different medical outcomes as far as I can see.

No I do not wake up at 3 in the morning feeling the sky is falling about some extrapolation of the climate change, any more than I did the predictions of the Club of Rome about population growth. in any cases I haven't studied the matter in any detail.

I don't support either party uniformly but do term limits for those in Congress.

ponymalta
10/6/2019 09:16 EST

Denise, we have already discussed AOC but I completely agree with you it is refreshing that she will speak her mind, and by the same token Sanders, Rand Paul and Andrew Yang -whether I agree with their views or not the country needs new thoughts and policies I the 21st century.

The plight of the working poor and the real wages of the working class is serious, and the idea that a Walmart worker qualifies for food stamps is an outrageous indicator of this. we I am sure differ on policies to address this ( in particular immigration and trade policy) but low real wages and expensive medical costs can push many into bankruptcy- and with artificial intelligence and advances in robotics, lower skilled workers probably will continue to face a tough time in upcoming decades.

srhsnh1807
10/6/2019 10:19 EST

Why won't the "pure as the driven snow" liberals in congress have an impeachment vote? Put it out there, put your vote where you mouth is. Why won't they go on record? We all know why..... this is a sham.

If they vote, the democrats will have to defend their decision to vulnerable districts. They also don't want to give republicans subpoena power.

They won't follow precedent because this isn't about impeachment... this is about the 2020 campaign for democrats with a pathetic field.

The strategy is to hold sham hearings, tar Trump with questionable allegations and investigations in hopes of turning the public. It's blowing up in their duplicitous faces. What they don't realize is they're handing the election to Trump on a golden platter. Thank you.... keep doing what you're doing. The democrats and Adam Schiff are a gift that keeps on giving.

cinparadise
10/6/2019 10:26 EST

I've been watching these hilarious posts come in from Democrats though I've been amused I've just been too busy to respond. However, the most recent post from Srhsnh1807 nails it perfectly so I just have to add my two cents.

I recommend that Srhsnh1807's post be voted post of the year!

Hear, hear!


*****


srhsnh1807


10/6/2019 10:19 EST


Why won't the "pure as the driven snow" liberals in congress have an impeachment vote? Put it out there, put your vote where you mouth is. Why won't they go on record? We all know why..... this is a sham.


If they vote, the democrats will have to defend their decision to vulnerable districts. They also don't want to give republicans subpoena power.


They won't follow precedent because this isn't about impeachment... this is about the 2020 campaign for democrats with a pathetic field.


The strategy is to hold sham hearings, tar Trump with questionable allegations and investigations in hopes of turning the public. It's blowing up in their duplicitous faces. What they don't realize is they're handing the election to Trump on a golden platter. Thank you.... keep doing what you're doing. The democrats and Adam Schiff are a gift that keeps on giving.


*****

Chattaroy
10/6/2019 10:36 EST

"They're handing the election to Trump on a golden platter" or...theyr'e handing Trump his wig on a pooper scooper.

Orion95
10/6/2019 11:23 EST

PM I wouldn't assume we would disagree on all solutions to address the income problems we discussed.
It is interesting you mentioned the Club of Rome, which I wasn't familiar with. It is interesting to me that many of the problems we have to address, from immigration pressures to conflict betwern nations to climate change are directly related or exacerbated by the fact that there are something like 7 billion people on the planet. Yes, many are living much better lives than their ancestors. But things are changing. The carbon in the air and water are causing weather changes and acidification, respectively. This isn't something that is debatable. The changes in the climate and the resulting forest fires, massive storms, flooding are chronicled weekly. Even the Pentagon, not a bunch of tree huggers, put out a report chronicling the massive costs faced as a result of climate change. Time to face facts IMO.

Orion95
10/6/2019 11:34 EST

Trump is exciting his base and pulling in $$$ but he is not expanding his base. He is actually losing independents, undecided, many folks that just didn't like Hillary. The Ukraine call and witholding $$! was really all about the election.

Clinton was impeached for lying (to Congress) about one act. That was it.

nonames
10/6/2019 17:50 EST

Not to interfere with all the "Undeniable...can't be debated facts' being posted but I just read that unemployment is at a 50 year low.
That's good right? For everyone right?
Well according to CNN there's reason to fear:
"These numbers are so good, we can’t deny it. It’s so good that they can’t be sustained. It’s got to lead to a recession at some point.”
Well, there you go! Mr.Trumps leading us right into a recession. There's another impeachable offense right?
I guess the usual "haters" will be lining up to call me more names now; please No Names. Thank You

Orion95
10/6/2019 18:49 EST

The average length of the 11 recessions between 1945 and 2001, less than 5 years. One is long overdue since the last one was some time ago - 2008. They typically occur when the economy becomes overheated. We are currently facing the largest deficit ever, brought about by a so-called 'conservative' President, so fiscal policy - borrowing more $$$- is no longer available as an economic stimulus. Trump's questionning of the competency of the Federal Reserve and his trade war with the second, or first, depending on the numbers you use, largest economy, China, is not helping. Businesses do not like uncertainty when planning for the future. A number of indicators show the economy is slowing, some parts of the country already seem to be in a recession, and many economists and corporate executives anticipate a recession by 2021. Tighten your seatbelts.

WhoaNellie
10/6/2019 19:52 EST

Opined:

"Clinton was impeached for lying (to Congress) about one act. That was it."

Not true. There were two articles of impeachment. One for perjury, lying under oath; the other for obstruction of justice.

The process was formally initiated and proceeded according to the rules - unlike what's going on now.

So far there are NO actual, specific crimes alleged - just "Orange Man Bad"...

Orion95
10/6/2019 20:58 EST

You are correct and I stand corrected. And the obstruction was related to the aforementioned act, without which there would have been no obstruction..

However, it is absurd to then characterize the impeachment inquiry of Trump as "Orange man bad." Soliciting a favor from a foreign government.... Well, you have the information. How your brain interprets it is up to you. But I can just imagine if "non citizen" Obama had even appeared to be considering holding up foreign aid in return for negative info about former governor and senator Mitt Romney. Astounding how the right falls in behind this man. It won't last, IMO.

DeniseLR
10/7/2019 11:03 EST

I believe Federal law prohibits any individual from asking or receiving any thing of value from a foreign national in order to influence a U.S. election. The cover up is what the 2 whistleblowers may have information about, tho it is already problematic transcripts of calls not related to serious national security issues are hidden in a server not designed for unrelated but embarassing phone calls.

The Mueller report did not exonerate Trump. by the way. Lots of arrests, several individuals related to the Trump campaign included. Given Trump's interest in knowing about and controlling everything it is unlikely he did not know his underlings were working with the Russians.

srhsnh1807
10/7/2019 13:23 EST

If the rules were that whistleblowers had to be left-handed Lithuanian midgets who enjoyed eating pickles while wearing pink frilly dresses, you can be sure that somewhere, somehow, the Democrats would be able to dig one up.

This is basically the same play they ran with Kavanaugh. When it became obvious that Christine Doctor Ford was pretty much lying her butt off, suddenly, a number of other "credible" witnesses suddenly materialized out of thin air, each one with a kinky Kavanagh story more unbelievably bizarre than the previous one, until finally they had Kavanaugh as the captain of a pirate ship doing rape runs up and down the eastern seaboard in between celebratory keggers.

Anybody with two brain cells can see this is all a sham. Those that can't, well..... you're missing a couple of brain cells.

DeniseLR
10/7/2019 13:31 EST

Read the news today about the effects of climate change on the warming in Siberia.

As far as thinking the Trump sh... show is a liberal spin. Believe me, I truly wish he was the honest, anti-corruption, stable genius he likes to present himself as to the gullible, who seem to have run out of facts and need to resort to blatant lies, attacks and insults directed at anyone who sees the "Emperor" (he wishes) has no clothes (and a small ....)!

mikedanbury
10/7/2019 15:33 EST

One point I'd like to make is it's impossible to have a real conversation about Trump. People who watch Fox News have a completely different reality than the rest of the people. I'll defer from arguing whose reality is truth but they are defintitely different. I'm a mainstream media kind of guy and the rest of my family watches Fox. I'm always amazed how different they perceive Trump's action from how I do. For example when WhoaNellie said there were no actual specific crimed alleged. How could anybody say that? If you don't think they made it clear the alleged crime is his pressuring Ukraine how can you have a decent argument. WhoaNellie do you really not know what they are investigating?

DeniseLR
10/7/2019 15:49 EST

MDanbury- of course I agree. I think the actual Fox news department, tho I rarely watch it, is pretty good at reporting facts. It is the commentators who put the spin on the facts, or ignore them completely. I wonder about their future as anyone who even stands up to Trump a tiny bit, as Mitt Romney did, get blasted on Twitter. Tucker Carlson has already said what Trump did was wrong, just not impeachable. And with the advent of Newsmax I wonder what will happen to viewing numbers for Fox.

WhoaNellie
10/7/2019 18:23 EST

A poster wrote:
"If you don't think they made it clear the alleged crime is his pressuring Ukraine how can you have a decent argument. WhoaNellie do you really not know what they are investigating?"

--------------------------

"Pressuring Ukraine" is not a crime. If you think it is, please cite the statute under which it falls. In any case, I don't think President Trump pressured Ukraine.

Are you saying Obama, or other Presidents, never "pressured" a foreign country or another world leader, and if he/they did, it was OK when he/they did it but not when Trump did it?

Do you think we should release transcripts of Obama's calls with foreign leaders? If not, why not - wouldn't it be hypocritical not to demand the same for the goose as for the gander?

Do you not remember, "Tell Vladimir I'll have more flexibility after the election"? That sounds to me like collusion, and a conspiracy to do something in secret that Obama did not want made public...

Have you actually read the transcript of the call to Ukraine? I invite you to point out where the "pressure" was - President Zelensky of the Ukraine denies there was any pressure, or that he even felt any pressure, from Trump. Please do not conflate two statements separated by several hundred words and on different subjects to try to make your case, as did several "news" organizations in the USA.

Clinton's two articles of impeachment that passed, in plain language:

Article I charged that Clinton lied to the grand jury concerning:

1. the nature and details of his relationship with Lewinsky
2. prior false statements he made in the Jones deposition
3. prior false statements he allowed his lawyer to make characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
4. his attempts to tamper with witnesses

Article III charged Clinton with attempting to obstruct justice in the Jones case by:

1. encouraging Lewinsky to file a false affidavit
2. encouraging Lewinsky to give false testimony if and when she was called to testify
3. concealing gifts he had given to Lewinsky that had been subpoenaed
4. attempting to secure a job for Lewinsky to influence her testimony
5. permitting his lawyer to make false statements characterizing Lewinsky's affidavit
6. attempting to tamper with the possible testimony of his secretary Betty Currie
7. making false and misleading statements to potential grand jury witnesses

All of these are actual crimes - punishable not just by impeachment, but if you or I as a private citizen did them, we also would be subject to criminal prosecution. Lying to a grand jury and obstruction of justice are not minor crimes.

Please point to the actual crimes you think President Trump has committed. Be specific.

WhoaNellie
10/7/2019 18:27 EST

A previous poster also said that Clinton was impeached for only one thing, lying to Congress.

As I pointed out above, Congress had nothing to do with it, and it was two articles of impeachement that passed, out of four proposed.

The first article as I detailed above was several crimes involving perjury, lying under oath, to a grand jury. Not just one crime but several.

The second article, as I detailed above, involved several crimes of obstruction of justice. Not just one crime, but several.

WhoaNellie
10/7/2019 18:45 EST

Further, the various House committees investigating the possibility of impeachement, are not conducting official impeachment proceedings and have NO subpoena power, despite what they want you to think and how the various "news" organizations have presented the matter.

Following the link below is some relevant commentary on the legal matters in play, from that link. You can choose not to read it or believe it, but you will be the poorer and more ignorant for not doing so, if you have any interest in this circus.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/10/07/house-sends-more-carefully-worded-impeachment-demand-letters-not-subpoenas-omb-and-pentagon/

Yes, congress can issue subpoenas; however a congressional committee must meet three requirements for their investigative subpoenas to be “legally sufficient” or have “judicial authority”; meaning a subpoena that carries a legal penalty for non-compliance.

First: “the committee’s investigation of the broad subject area must be authorized by its chamber;
Second: “the investigation must pursue “a valid legislative purpose” but does not need to involve legislation and does not need to specify the ultimate intent of Congress;
Third: the specific inquiries must be pertinent to the subject matter area that has been authorized for investigation.
These “subpoenas” from the committees do not meet the first hurdle. The “impeachment inquiry” was not authorized by its chamber. The chamber for each committee is the full house of representatives. [Again, there are constitutional processes within impeachment.]

DeniseLR
10/7/2019 19:13 EST

Be patient, Whoa Nellie. The impeachment process is just starting. I'm sure there will be as many enumerated points as in the Clinton impeachment, which was all about lying about consensual sex. Period.

I will check to see if it is really true that Congress right now lacks subpoena power. That sounds absurd on the face of it.

And going back to what Obama may or may or may not have done is just another distraction. I know I brought in Obama in a previous post but that was to illustrate the hypocrisy of the right, who would have been in racist heaven if Obama had behaved even close to Trump's continuing despicable behavior.

DeniseLR
10/7/2019 19:33 EST

I found different info on a more reputable and objective source. www.lawfareblog.com - "Congressional Subpoena Power and Executive Privilege, the Coming Showdown Between the Branches.' But I did look at your reference.
Unless you consider yourself an Constitutional Attorney....
I'm not and I believe Congress has supoena power but has more clout once an official impeachment inquiry has been instituted. But I will keep researching. Thanks for presenting some real info.

Orion95
10/7/2019 20:07 EST

I believe heads of committees are given blanket subpoena power by Congressional leaders so they don't have to vote on every single subpoena.
Are you telling me all or many of the supoenas put out by Congress when the Repubs were in charge were illegitimate? Never heard that argument.

Trumpwants a vote to stall things and force Dems in purple states to identify himself. It is a political tactic, nothing else. Don't fall for it.

Orion95
10/7/2019 20:28 EST

When an accused perp goes to court for a felony trial it is common for the D.A. to throw the book at them, including as much as possible to intimidate and force them to plea. A bank robber might be accused of any additional crimes that may have been committed in the process of the bank robbery. But it is All About The Bank Robbery. Ditto with the details in the Clinton impeachment. All these guys are attorneys. Let's not be naive about that. They are playing hardball and just because you don't know what they are doing doesn't mean they don't.

I'm off to watch Niner-Browns game on ESPN en espanol.

WhoaNellie
10/7/2019 20:34 EST

No matter what you all "believe" or have "heard", Congressional committees do NOT have subpoena power except if they meet all the conditions, which I posted above.

Apparently you all didn't bother to read what the conditions are. I repeat them here:

A congressional committee must meet three requirements for their investigative subpoenas to be “legally sufficient” or have “judicial authority”; meaning a subpoena that carries a legal penalty for non-compliance.

First: “the committee’s investigation of the broad subject area must be authorized by its chamber;
Second: “the investigation must pursue “a valid legislative purpose” but does not need to involve legislation and does not need to specify the ultimate intent of Congress;
Third: the specific inquiries must be pertinent to the subject matter area that has been authorized for investigation.

These “subpoenas” from the committees do not meet the first hurdle. The “impeachment inquiry” was not authorized by its chamber. The chamber for each committee is the full house of representatives. [Again, there are constitutional processes within impeachment.]

Perhaps you have reading comprehension problems? If the committee does not have authorization from its chamber (the full House of Representatives in this case), it cannot issue legally binding subpoenas. Period.

Orion95
10/7/2019 20:40 EST

I think 1. You are rude. and 2. You don't really understand what you are quoting.
Ranting about something is not the way to convince anyone.

WhoaNellie
10/7/2019 20:48 EST

Aw, c'mon, Orion95, just admit you don't have the capability (or the desire) to understand what I wrote!

WhoaNellie
10/7/2019 20:52 EST

You can read all about it here. Well, those of you who can understand words of more than one syllable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress#Subpoenas

Orion95
10/7/2019 20:56 EST

More fool you if that is what you really think. Sad.

BlueSeas
10/7/2019 22:00 EST

I think there is an argument that the committees are acting within the normal boundaries.of their "jurisdiction".

But even if not...the "impeachment" imperative clearly supported by the majority of the house, even if not formally voted on, raises questions not pondered in ordinary subpoenas.

This question is constitutional and way over my ability to evaluate. But it's not out in left field.

Wildstubby
10/7/2019 22:05 EST

WhoaNellie don't you know its not polite to obfuscate a liberal's argument with facts?

Orion95
10/7/2019 22:07 EST

I believe the House committees are by custom given their supoena power by a vote of the full House. That is so they as I mentioned before don't have to vote on every single supoena they issue. If anyone who is actually knowledgeable about this has some info we'd all appreciate.

Interestingly Executive Prvilege has a long history and has been used by every President but isn't mentioned in the Constitution.

WhoaNellie
10/7/2019 22:22 EST

It's not really complicated, just over some people's heads...

For the Congressional committees to be able to issue legally-binding subpoenas that carry a legal penalty for not complying, one requirement is that the whole chamber must approve - a vote must be taken. A committee on its own cannot just issue subpoenas unless it's been voted on and approved and carried by the full House.

Geeze, even Orion95 should be able to read and understand this:

"As announced in Wilkinson v. United States,[7] a Congressional committee must meet three requirements for its subpoenas to be "legally sufficient." First, the committee's investigation of the broad subject area must be authorized by its chamber; second, the investigation must pursue "a valid legislative purpose" but does not need to involve legislation and does not need to specify the ultimate intent of Congress; and third, the specific inquiries must be pertinent to the subject matter area that has been authorized for investigation."

The above from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress#Subpoenas

Again, it does not matter what you heard, or what you believe. "...the committee's investigation of the broad subject area must be authorized by its chamber..." This is what was ruled in Wilkinson v. United States.

Why someone would think this is hard to understand, or that a Constitutional scholar is needed, is just dumb.

But I get it - when some people read something they don't like or don't agree with, they say it doesn't say what it really says. Or they say it says something other than what it does say - they just make stuff up. Or they just ignore it altogether...

WhoaNellie
10/7/2019 22:30 EST

Orion95 wrote:

"That is so they as I mentioned before don't have to vote on every single supoena (sic) they issue."

This just shows your ignorance.

Of course they do not need to take a separate vote on every single subpoena they may want to issue.

But one of the requirements that the committee must fulfill to be able to issue subpoenas at all, is that the chamber approve. The FULL chamber - that means a vote must be taken on the floor, when the full chamber is in session.

Then, if the vote carries, the committee is allowed the power to issue legally binding subpoenas - they don't have to repeat the process for every single subpoena. But they MUST get that vote, one time, before they legally have that power.

Them's the rules. If you don't like it, just pretend Wilkinson v. United States never happened and that the Supreme Court never decided it.

Sheesh.

WhoaNellie
10/7/2019 22:30 EST

And it's not by custom, it's by LAW.

srhsnh1807
10/8/2019 08:36 EST

The last thing Shifty Schiff wants to do is allow Republicans to subpoena Hunter Biden and the various other shady characters the democrats don't want you to hear about. Liberal heads will explode as republicans expose the real truth about this sham of a process to the American people.

Orion95
10/8/2019 09:52 EST

I suppose that the spin on betrayer Trump pulling out of Syria is because of the Dems, intimidated by the "chosen one", "the very stable genius", are to blame because of Hunter Biden. No real conservative supports a man who has created the highest deficit in history and has shown the U.S. to be weak and indecisive militarily. No progressive supports a man who belittles the plight of the poor by cutting healthcare and our social safety net.

Isn't it great that Trump thinks business dealings of politician's sons should be closely scrutinized. Hmmmmm.

Orion95
10/8/2019 10:22 EST

And now more than half the country supports the impeachment inquiry. Lindsay Graham and (horrors) Pat Robertson have spoken against Trump. Trump is in danger, says Robertson, of losing the "mandate of heaven".

The individuals who continue to support this man remind me of the delusional victim of a catfishing scheme who continues to think their "love", who they continue to send $$, depleting their savings and finally borrowing money, but who they have never seen, is real and will eventually show up and all will be well!

DeniseLR
10/8/2019 15:25 EST

Michael Gerhardt, author of "Federal Impeachment Policies" -
"There is no specification in the Constitution that the Congress must have a vote during the imoeachment process. That is just a smokescreen thrown up by the right."

Blenheim
10/9/2019 00:27 EST

Of course the Europeans trash the U.S. NATO policy, while having no problem taking U.S taxpayer dollars to defend themselves.

The U.N. trashes U.S policy yet has no problem taking U.S taxpayer dollars, yet without U.S dollars the U.N would be history.

The South Americans sit on their rears doing nothing with bankrupt Argentina, socialist Venezuela,
Ecuador now in national emergency do to Carrera;s socialist policies,
Socialist President for life Morales of Bolivia.
Brazil trying to recover due to the socialist policies of da Silva. Puerto Rico an ongoing historically corrupt bankrupt disaster.

A flat going nowhere Colombia economy where ex-pats can live the life on 1,500 dollars a month social security check which today buys 3,400 pesos to a dollar, versus 8 years ago which bought 1,745 pesos to a dollar--the best health care in the world on a 40,000 peso a month Colombia EPS plan.
Breakfast for 2 for 8,000 pesos in a town in the middle of nowhere--with real Bacon (maybe not cured), or beef which requires an axe to cut as it is so tough-- eggs, English muffins, (okay then arepas) potatoes (probably rice instead) coffee, butter ????, with real fresh milk, (hopefully boiled first)
Also a good idea bring one's own salt and particularly important to be sure to bring one's pepper--and soy sauce if one is in to rice--

Yes without the evils of Trump the world will be such a much better equitable world--

Andresen
10/9/2019 09:46 EST

Blenheim. "the best health care in the world on a 40,000 peso a month Colombia EPS plan." If you're in America you had better keep your head down as Americans think they have the best...everything.

DeniseLR
10/9/2019 12:04 EST

The smart Americans realize their healthcare costs the most but is ranked last among the 11 major industrialized countries. But there are plenty of uneducated people who think the U.S. is best in everything.

I am willing to agree with you that Trump is a great leader, a stable genius with great hair and the best words making our country and the world a better place, draining the swamp and fighting corruption everywhere....

I have a favor to ask, though....

mikedanbury
10/9/2019 12:13 EST

I don't know if American's think we have the best healthcare in the world. I think it's more fair to say most American's prefer the current system versus socialized medicine. I think most American's are very receptive to changes but just not government run.

DeniseLR
10/9/2019 12:21 EST

Don't forget the V.A., Indian Health Service, Medicare and Medicaid are all "government run" all or partially. They all have flaws, but currently U.S. healthcare is the most expensive in the world and U.S. insurance companies, according to a study by the Economist. among others, are pulling the most in excess profits (above and beyond a normal, competitive return). People are dying because they can't afford things like insulin. This is yhe contribition of Trump and the Republicans to an already flawed system.

Blenheim
10/9/2019 16:12 EST

Am one of those uneducated--

More people want to immigrate to the USA than any other country in the world trump or no trump--How does one explain this---??

Am in the V.A healthcare system--Trump administration has helped vets in the V.A. system.. One is called the veterans choice program.

As a vet see many my age at the hospital / clinics in their seventies and younger, some 30-50 pounds overweight with all sorts of health issues--diabetes-etc etc. Much of this and other issues have been self inflicted due to years of poor lifestyle.

It is incorrect to say one has to wait 2-3 months for a V.A. appointment--One can just go to an emergency room.

In the U..S if a diabetic goes to the emergency room insulin will be administered. Whether one has money or not.

Doctors are doctors--no matter what country, Good ones and bad ones, In Colombia good EPS's and not so good. One wants better healthcare in Colombia--then one has to pay for a private plan above basic EPS.

Free National healthcare for all is a misnomer--they all have queue's depending on the issue, the ultimate type of healthcare still depends on money ---

DeniseLR
10/9/2019 16:31 EST

According to current data more people want to immigrate to the U.S. (20%) (as many want to emigrate to Europe). That leaves 80% that want to move elsewhere.It is also important to look at the countries that want to migrate the most, almost 30% of Latin America and the Caribbean, closest to U.S. By the way, the 16% of Americans who say they would like to emigrate is the highest to date, up from 10%

I certainly never denigrated the V.A. It has flaws but does a reasonable to great job normally, IMO. It is public financed health care. I wouldn't privatize it. The Repubs might want to. They want to cut Social Security and Medicare. Look at their Congressional budgets.

U.S. healthcare far from the best unless you measure it by what it costs.

Orion95
10/9/2019 16:39 EST

If you are a " love it or leave it" type why are you on this forum.

So, a TEEN unable to afford a medical treatment just goes to the emergency room? A SENIOR who can't afford a cancer drug just goes there as well? Do you know how expensive that is and what the waiting times are?

For sure attention to personal health is often not followed - we have an obesity epidemic -but painting everyone with the same broad brush is ridiculous.

You are so lucky you have the V.A. - which is heavily funded public (socialist) healthcare.

DeniseLR
10/9/2019 17:47 EST

Cutrently watching Turkish invasion across the Syrian border due to U.S. troop withdrawal. Mothers, fathers, children fleeing.

Disgusting behavior by an inept, rogue President, and Republicans finally starting to agree, both in Congress and in the polls.

Blenheim
10/9/2019 18:40 EST

All free public healthcare countries have waiting lines depending on the condition--Canada has waiting times "queue's" which is why quite a few Canadians who can afford it come to the states for treatment--those who cannot just have to wait--just as in the U.K etc etc

Social security--Medicare is also a heavily funded socialist scheme--one typically receives more than puts in depending on how long one lives

By law an emergency room in the states is required to administer anyone who shows up at the door--
then later depending on one's economic being determines if one is going to pay or not-

Love it or leave it--Yes an American first--no different than a Colombian being always first-just ask my 2 passport carrying Colombian wife --

Been in Colombia off an on for 20 years, a legal resident--here longer in this country than most on the forum in Colombia

Joined the army and went overseas as many were required to do in the sixties. that was also federally funded --3 hots and a cot--and the V.A. healthcare was part of that commitment---Everyone has had this same military opportunity over the years to this day-- so vets think it as a delayed paycheck for services rendered--not a giveaway such as ssdi-

DeniseLR
10/9/2019 19:51 EST

You have no idea what waiting times are in "free public funded healthcare" (then they're NOT free any more than public schools or highways or the Veterans Administration are - we pay) countries. Wait times to see a PCP or specialists in the U.S. can be many months. Emergency rooms just treat emergencies and they will defer anything more serious. You can't get your daily shot of insulin or cancer treatments in an emergency room.

Many seniors feel the same way about their Social Security or Medicare as you do about publicly funded V.A. I AM GLAD THERE IS A V.A. but someone like you should be asking why vets should get free healthcare for their entire lives - hell, 80% or more aren't even in combat positions - just for spending a few years in the army?

Blenheim
10/9/2019 19:55 EST

Mean while mayoral candidates in Colombia, men and women are being assassinated, Mexican drug cartels killing men and women politicos and anyone else in their way, MS gang members killings in the states etc etc.
and angel moms being ignored-

19 years in Afghanistan--still the largest opium producer in the world--Years in Iraq--several thousand American kids / troops killed and maimed for life.

Wonder how many of the Gung-ho Americans and American politicians have sent their their kids to these centuries old endless middle east religious wars.

Why are not the rogue inept European leaders with their 2nd rate underfunded GDP military's of the last 60 years over there doing something about this--rather than sitting in their comfortable sofas desk chairs, condemning the USA once again at our human and monetary expense-not theirs.

Orion95
10/9/2019 20:06 EST

Deflections, distractions, distortions, lies. Well, I guess we can count on not seeing you in Colombia.

WhoaNellie
10/9/2019 20:27 EST

Some people seem to want the US to be the policeman of the world! And on this forum it seems that's NOT the right-wing types, how strange...

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”
? William Tecumseh Sherman

President Trump wants us out of wars, and not to spend any more American lives fighting other peoples' wars...and the left condemns him!

Orion95
10/9/2019 20:31 EST

To my knowledge, Noone in the Republican party of ant significance who understands what Trump just did approves of it. But keep quoting the "War is Hell!" stuff. I agree, but in context.

Blenheim
10/9/2019 21:11 EST

In Bogota now where we live---the city of stuck up Rollas--my Colombian wife being one of them--
Our BMW pico plata (license plate number) says we could not drive in Bogota until 7:30 P.M. this evening---
Pico plata (license plate number) determines on what days and what hours one can or cannot drive during weekdays in Bogota., This is by the last number of the license plate equal to odd and even days of the month. Saturday and Sunday's are excluded. Tomorrow to commercial Parque la Colina

Blenheim
10/9/2019 22:04 EST

Not entirely correct-
V.A. healthcare is not free nor available to all vets. There are i recall about 8 categories of classifications which determines the availability to V.A healthcare to a veteran. Yes the army has the CIB. (combat infantry badge) However it also depended on one's MOS (military occupation Specialty) in those days--This is how the V.A. determined one's eligibility by looking at one's military records (DD-214) and award medals. Flying a Huey slick for example did not qualify one for a CIB, though combat related as well as other MOS's. Yes there have been and are abuses in the VA. system. just as in any govt program.

Orion95
10/9/2019 22:31 EST

You must have more direct experience with the publicly funded V.A. but I doubt if combat experience or medals have anything to do with eligibility.

From my reading a person who "served in the military and who was discharged or released in a condition other than dishonorable may qualify for V.A. health care."
"Not all V.A healthcare benefits are available to all. The V.A. maintains a priority system with the most benefits going to those with greater health or financial needs."

I like that but you may think it is sort of like Medicaid, healthcare that is cheaper for the poor and needy. And publicly funded by taxpayers.

ponymalta
10/10/2019 03:34 EST

Denise

On the issue of veterans when America ended the draft recruitment became an issue and the benefits offered not just the VA part if the incentive to enlist. I think whatever role one served in the military the incentives offered area lot better than having a draft in the opinion of most people.( though I think there is some merit to universal conscription for all young men for a 2 year period in some capacity.)

As far as health care I think a big issue is this idea of what a government run health care system would actually mean- most European countries have similar medical outcomes at a much lower cost than in the USA. Of the best is the UK NHS- and here are still private doctors in the UK, and private medical insurance in the UK very affordable.and for that matter there is even medical insurance just to speed up appointments.The Uk spends around 12% of GDP on health care, the US I think around 18%.

Several years ago I did a financial analysis of a factory in the Midwest. At that time they used temps at $1,300 a month so they didn't have to pay benefits Starting pay at the factory full time was $2,200 - but the cost to a company for providing medical insurance was $1,000 or so per month ! The company was competing directly with Chinese manufacturers- and beating them but just barely- so having national health care would probably help in many industries competitiveness.

Imagine if the average American system was offered the alterative of free medical care, no premiums. no deductible, a savings to country of 6% of GDP, similar medical outcomes- my guess is there would be a lot more support if the comparison was beyond simply we don't want a government run system".

If every other advanced country can offer reasonable medical care, one would have thought there would be more serious debate. .

DeniseLR
10/10/2019 09:38 EST

Ponymalta -

Great Post!

Problems, or two of many, are 1. the lack of understanding of what socialism is and the labeling of any attempt to move healthcare more into a publicly funded areas as creeping socialism (Obama made efforts to keep private corporations involved but was still attacked) and 2. corporate opposition to anything that seems to lower corporate profits, whether or not it is good for the rest of the country.

It sort of sounds like a complicated Calculus problem, for math people. Maximize healthcare quality and access while minimizing cost.

As an aside ' watching news right now - I must say I really despise Lindsay Graham. Sorry if I offend! I realize there are people on the left as well who will say whatever necessary to save their own careers whether or not they really think, or care if it is in the best interests of the country.

Orion95
10/10/2019 10:01 EST

On the news right now- since the U.S. has pulled out Turkish and Russian forces moving into Northern Syria massacring our allies, 11,000 of whom were killed fighting ISIS.

The point was made on TV today that Trump is worse than Benedict Arnold, who at least fought for the United States at one point. (No bone spurs.) You may disagree.

spikerivet
10/10/2019 10:10 EST

Do those who think the Mueller probe produced nothing (except of course, 34 individual indictments, but none to the President himself) think with the more recent charges in the Ukraine incident that the premise for establishing the Mueller probe, that the POTUS may have sold out out or compromised our national interests to our enemies is now 1) more likely to have happened or 2) less likely to have happened.

I'm not a Russophobe. This is less likely to have literally happened. But you got to wonder.

Putin liaison to Trump; Times running out. It's time to launch"Operation:Turkey stuffing"--
Trump to Putin liaison: No, We have to be cool! the Democrats will just shoot themselves in the foot. We'll sweep in 2020, and I'll consolidate. From there it will be smooth sailing. Nobody will be checking our every move. We won't have to be under the radar. Then we'll do it, and nobody will be able to do anything but squawk! -They haven't got any------ No, the time for being cool is over! We must consolidate now! We must implement now while we still can. I've set it up, make the call to Erdogan!


Loose lips. Sinking ships

Blenheim
10/10/2019 10:11 EST

Almost correct-

Combat awards and one's DD-214 record typically determine one's priority in the V.A. healthcare system.

However there are also health issues related to military service the V.A. automatically recognizes and has a presumptive service connected list---(unfortunately this is where people can and do scam the system)-

With the above the .V.A then. determines one's eligibility on their priority list.

Now those without a combat award or recognized health issue etc,-- the V.A. then determines one's economic status. Those with good economic status are at the bottom of the priority list, and those with little economic are just before them.
Not to confuse people-those with good economic status can still avail themselves for V.A. healthcare but then have a co-pay obligation. Those without are fee. For one who has an interest look at V.A. form EZ10-10 which for the above has to be filed annually.

For vets who are really confused--all states have what one calls "Veteran service officers" and their services are free to help one wade through the bureaucracy..

The V.A.. also has an "FMP" program (foreign medical program) for vets living or traveling overseas. Not an open door and one still has to see if they qualify for this program

V.A..gov/COMMUNITYCARE/docs/pubfiles/factsheets/FactSheet-04-02

Years many vets thought walking in to a V..A. hospital might mean being carried out on a gurney.
A much better today system today. fortunately.

Orion95
10/10/2019 10:30 EST

Re: V.A. You are correct. I checked it out and as Johnny Carson used to say, "I did not know that."
Thank you.

ponymalta
10/10/2019 11:53 EST

Hi Denise,

I am not an advocate of socialism, and actually would advocate for a drastic reduction in the federal governments presence in the economy and elsewhere. However for health care not only providing affordable and accessible healthcare something American can and should do it, more than likely save money.I think Sanders and Warren are misguided in presenting such a costly path and the manner in which to fund. No way any government plan will work unless there is cost control.Better to go to NHS in the Uk and learn from them, and go to the archives and pull out from Hilary's attempt in the 1990's as some of the ideas were no bad- such as standardized forms alone .

Graham. Schumer, Pelosit, McConnel all make me sick- that is why term limits I think are necessary.

Corporations are supposed to look after their profits and strong corporations definitely necessary to compete in the global 21st century economy. But the politicians keep playing the same game- Medicare for all just building on the same rotten house cards, just like Social Security. Trick is to give enough benefits to business overall to by compromise to establish health care for all.

Crazy and oppressive regulations, bloated federal bureaucracy, highest incarceration rate of any advanced country, virtually open borders, Walmart workers qualifying for food stamps- sorry for the soap box, but time for term limits to get rid of the bulk of the politicians on both sides.

DeniseLR
10/10/2019 14:34 EST

PM - Several things. I agree about term limits but think each term in the House should be more than 2 years.

Healthcare isn't like buying a car. I really think no U.S. citizen should be denied treatment or intimidated into refusing care because they can't afford it.

51% of registered voters want Trump impeached and removed from office - a Fox News Poll. Horrors!

I really think corporate profiteering and bureaucratic inefficiencies are 2 sides of the same coin. In economics it is called the Principal-Agent problem. Agents will maximize their own self interests when able (no monitoring or regulatory structure).

Always appreciate your comments, and I'll add Rudi Guliani to your list!

mikedanbury
10/10/2019 14:35 EST

I'm curious, why don't UK ex-pats like to discuss UK politics with each other. You think there would at least a few arguments about Brexit.

nonames
10/10/2019 14:51 EST

Brexit! Now you've done it!
Let's see what the Guru's have to say.
Should be interesting comments from some while others will undoubtedly blame the destroyer of "transnationalism". Let's see...

ponymalta
10/10/2019 16:45 EST

Hi Denise

What is corporate profiteering ?Corporations are supposed to make money !

Government bureaucrats cost the taxpayer a lot of money for their inefficiencies. Years ago Milton Friedman did a study of what it costs the government to pay benefits and arrived at the conclusion a lot cheaper to just send a check, somewhat similar to universal basic income.

Just an anecdotal observation about Giulani: when he was in the Republican presidential primary some years ago ( 2006 0r 2007 I think) I was at a function where he was appearing, and we had a fairly long chat. I can say listening to him now, whatever one thinks of his views, he certainly seems to have slowed down considerably and not as sharp.

DeniseLR
10/10/2019 17:21 EST

PM-
Respectfully, A couple of examples. I know you understand what monopolies and oligopolies are. They are not competitive firms, in the economic sense. I hope you get the fact that when someone takes over a pharmaceutical company and starts charging multiples of what a drug was sold for initially people may die, as some have recently. Corporations have an incentive to cover up pollution and dumping, falsify emission reports to sell more cars (Volkswagen), purchase politicians through campaign donations and fight their crimes and misdeeds against us in court with teams of lawyers. These are done as an unhealthy form of profit maximization IMO rather than competing fairly for profits in the public arena. I looked up the definition to see if I misused the word - "To make or seek and excessive of unfair profit, especially illegally or in the black market."

Rudi was okay but has gone bat sh.. crazy.

Sure, corporations can't exist without making a profit. And I think healthcare research corporations probably need the profit motive to do good, cutting edge research. Capitalism is a powerful tool but it is a knife that cuts on both sides of its blade.

I'll check on the Friedman paper - I have actually gone through a few in Grad School- and see what it says. He did some great stuff but you really have to go through his work and see what it actually says. He was also very much generally in opposition to fiscal and monetary policy, I believe, partic in combination. The Chicago School of Economics! One of my old profs was a student of Friedman.

Blenheim
10/10/2019 17:58 EST

Remember a Senator only has to serve 1 --- 6 year term for certain benefits--A House member has to serve 3 terms (6 years) to qualify for certain benefits--(equal to 6 years for a Senator).. which is why one hears at times a candidate for a house seat will say he will only serve for 3 terms and go home--while the general voting populace has no idea of this little game,

Orion95
10/10/2019 19:36 EST

Blenheim - Good post. I doubt if you are really not an "educated type." Anyway, I like what Cory Booker is saying on CNN right now. We can all evolve on issues.

DeniseLR
10/10/2019 19:51 EST

An incident of possible corporate profiteering just mentioned on CNN. Truvata, which is an important defense to HIV, costs about $6 per dose to make but sells for about $1000 on the U.S. market. Prob less in other countries like Colombia.

ponymalta
10/11/2019 05:27 EST

denise

I found it curious the use of the word ‘profiteering’ in relation to the particular drug you mentioned so I decided to glance at the financial results of the parent company which I understand is Gilead. In its history it has had years it has lost money, and years it has made money, and for this year through June it is profitable. Like all drug companies it has to make huge investments in research and development and getting approvals, and then make it back in particular before patent protection ends and they have to compete with generics.
Looking their June 2019 numbers their sales to cost of production and R & D was approximately 3.4 times, hardly the sort of mark-up you indicated for just one product. And in any case to measure what their return on a particular product, one would have to consider the amount invested to develop he product- and without that incentive would the product have been developed in the first place!
The company is currently profitable, with a return on book equity of 30%, though compared to market value around 10%. The net income to sales is high in 30% range while research and development around 20% of sales.
I am not sure what or how one would calculate what a fair return would be but it seems they are within a typical range of some drug companies, and a return that investors seem to demand to put up the money in early stages of drug companies. So profiteering hardly seems an accurate description, and without such incentive we would see much less advances in drug development.
As far as drug prices being higher I the US than the same drug price abroad this has been a topic of discussion for many years, and I recall hearing this was an initiative the current administration and Congress have been discussing to reduce the disparity. Like the revised Canada-Mexico-USA trade agreement, hopefully I the midst of all the other activities Congress wishes to spend their time on, maybe they could consider getting some practical legislation done.

ponymalta
10/11/2019 05:38 EST

Blenheim

Good points ! Absolute scam the benefits Congress-both parties-have voted themselves.they have no shame.It wouldn't be so bad if Congress put country on sound final footing but like drunken sailors they keep raising the debt ceiling.

ponymalta
10/11/2019 05:51 EST

Denise.

I don't recall in which of Friedman's work he brought up the point about what it costs the Federal government to give welfare benefits, maybe it was his book 'Capitalism and Freedom.'

No the government shouldn't and isn't equipped to know what prices should be, trying to define what is an "unfair" profit. Illegal actions another story. Stupid regulations or fanatic government bureaucrats (the EPA is full of them) or government bureaucrats forced to enforce inane regulations or make Congress happy ( such as MSHA or BLM) is yet another story.(I have dealt with all three).

WhoaNellie
10/11/2019 09:52 EST

"... like drunken sailors they keep raising the debt ceiling."

At least drunken sailors are spending their OWN money!

DeniseLR
10/11/2019 11:06 EST

I said a "possible" example. I gave you a definition of profiteering, which you don't seem to think exists? Have you read any of Friedman's books?. I actually read stuff like that.

Believe me I've heard all the arguments. The Chicago School also produced a study showing that all Unions do is fight for wages workers would have received anyway, and then siphon off part of it in Union dues. Some of these arguments have merits, some don't.

If you really believe corporate corruption and profiteering don't exist - and we should be very careful about who we accuse - then we don't have much to talk about.

DeniseLR
10/11/2019 11:07 EST

Yeah, Whoa Nellie - the Trump deficit. Largest in history.

DeniseLR
10/11/2019 11:33 EST

It would actually be more profitable for companies to charge different prices based on the ability of consumers to pay - sort of a tiered pricing strategy. That is, the consumers willing to pay the most and maximize profits for the corp will do so ($1000 a dose for Truvada) while it would be available at lower rates for most of us. That is a business strategy that they use already by selling at lower rates in poorer countries.
We can all see the problems with that - free stuff!!!! - but the goods, not free, are still sold at a price above marginal cost to that group of consumers. The corporations earn more $$ and it increases economic surplus.
To me, corporations selling a life saving medication no matter what their financial status is - if they were doing well one could argue they didn't need to, if poorly that they were striving to get back on track - is akin to taking adavantage of a natural catastrophe by selling water to the desperate and poor for $20 a gallon.
Repubs don't seem to want an infrastructure bill. Their "leader" is preoccupied.
A little grumpy this morning. Coffee hasn't kicked. Lo siento.

WhoaNellie
10/11/2019 11:37 EST

Yeah, DeniseLR - Obama doubled the national debt, increasing it more than ALL other Presidents before him combined, in history!

ponymalta
10/11/2019 11:49 EST

Denise , you you did say possible. However the idea that Gilead is making an unreasonable profit does not seem borne out by even a cursory review of their financial statements or understanding of how the drug industry operates- but not that I would expect the average journalist at CNN ( or FOX) to have much understanding of financial matters or theory. I recall the idiotic rantings of journalists claiming Trump's tax returns would reveal his net worth.

Nothing I said I think implies that corporate corruption doesn't at times exist, VW is proof alone of that, but profiteering a pejorative word and often based on a very subjective view of what is an unfair price- the alternative is a bunch of bureaucrats and politicians trying to manage an economy.

I read Friedman years ago, Capitalism and Freedom, and Monetary History of the United States I recall. His ideas on a negative income tax I found appealing in a similar manner as the Universal Basic income.

AaronMDE
10/11/2019 12:07 EST

Denise,

You've now posted this info twice and it's wrong.....Truvada is not $1000 per dose/day but rather closer to $65 a dose. It runs between $1800 and $2000 for a 30 day supply. So, is 10 times the cost to produce the drug profiteering? Some might see it that way but as has already been pointed out there is tremendous cost to bring a drug to market and only a few years to recover that cost before the patents expire.

Aaron

DeniseLR
10/11/2019 12:08 EST

I don't get the tangent you got off on. It was mentioned as a possible example. That's all. And you are ignoring the greater point and making an implicit assumption that what you define as a reasonable return trumps people's lives. And the only alternative is an 100% inept regulatory structure. Just the way police are unnecessary and if criminals were left alone they would regulate themselves.

If I had read 'Monetary History of the United States" by Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz I would certainly remember it. It is massive and not an easy read.

DeniseLR
10/11/2019 12:17 EST

I picked up the info on CNN and mentioned that and that it was a POSSIBLE example of profiteering. I rechecked the price just now for Truvada on Google - about $20,000 a year. That's less than your figure if calculated daily, but not affordable to many. I stand corrected but I think my general point holds.

I also just checked the list of current HIV drugs. They all cost around $1000 or more for 30 to 60 pills.

DeniseLR
10/11/2019 12:20 EST

Aaron, then why are we charged more - when we are frequently the home country of the corp - than those in Mexico or Nigeria?

I get the R&D costs. But this isn't a new SUV. Tiered pricing might work if conducted efficiently. Just a thought.

Orion95
10/11/2019 12:28 EST

I wonder if some of these posters would be a little more sympathetic to the plight of the poor who are unable to buy life saving drugs if HIV drugs were not used as an example. I really don't get posters who nitpick over an small error - which should be mentioned- as though it negates the larger point. This isn't a national newspaper. People can make mistakes and correct themselves. It is usually the dumbest that have never made a mistake in their lives IMO.

AaronMDE
10/11/2019 13:16 EST

Denise,

Likely because the drug companies know that US insurers will pick up most of the tab.
Doesn't make is right of course.
I noticed when checking the Truvada cost it was half in Canada.
Not sure what it is in Colombia but know people who use it here.

Aaron

Orion95
10/11/2019 13:24 EST

Aaron, they charge that much because it is a profit maximizing decision and they know they can get it. It doesn't matter to them that many can't afford unless they get gov assistance, which they will gladly take. Period. (I used to think they were the good guys). Insurance companies get their money from consumers, ultimately. Our health care costs are the highest in the world per capita.

ponymalta
10/11/2019 13:44 EST

Denise, no I am not ignoring the issue of people not being able to afford a particular drug, just that many of these wonder drugs we have are available precisely because someone took a big gamble to develop them an make a profit before patents run out. I certainly wish big drug companies to continue taking such gambles by investing heavily in research and development.

The issue of people having access to the drug is not up to the drug companies that isn't their function. Since I am partial to more UK or European approach to health care, I don't disagree with you except the remedy is elsewhere than trying to restrict drug companies making a profit.

As far as he work in question I do not recall if I read all or just parts of it but I referred to it in several papers,Capitalism and Freedom on the other hand is a short book which I read a few times.

Orion95
10/11/2019 14:19 EST

Some think the gov is the best representative of the people and should run everything.

Some, esp on this site, foolishly worship capitalism and laud even its abysmal failures as success.

Both sides are wrong. Badly wrong.

WhoaNellie
10/11/2019 14:24 EST

In its most succinct definition,

Capitalism = Free Market = Freedom

And of course the left is against all of those.

DeniseLR
10/11/2019 16:24 EST

Not accurate or succinct. It is an economic or political system where industry and trade are controlled by private ownership, not the government. And many on the left are business owners. But you already knew that, didn't you?

I would get the difference straight between the deficit and the national debt. An important distinction.

Blenheim
10/11/2019 18:53 EST

Of course many on the left are business owners----themselves now enriched though western capitalist principles,
They now conveniently ignore the fact anyone else who also has abilities through western capitalist principles can also enrich themselves. This system has enriched the masses more than any other system in history.
However this is not now an equitable system in their view for the less talented in life., So now through the education systems propagate socialist principles with false promises of equitable fairness to the masses in voting for a new socialist utopia for all. In the end the masses ignorance by being taught these false principles only benefits the masters and never ending misery for themselves.

Zimbabwe a failed socialist utopia for 35 years-and now Venezuela the current example of the masses ignorance of voting for a socialist utopia,

DeniseLR
10/11/2019 19:22 EST

I have got to say, you guys seem to tag team in. It is just not worth responding to these simplistic notions of right and left, socialist and capitalist. I've got it. That's your religion. I try to keep an open mind. You should try it.

Pedroal
10/11/2019 20:11 EST

Shep Smith just resigned from Fox. According to news sources he tired of trying to present news and facts honorably and truthfully in the face of all the lies, distortion and spin from the opinion hosts.
This is the beginning of the downfall of Fox.

Pedroal
10/11/2019 20:15 EST

Blenheim your depictions of capitalist and socialist societies are simplistic and you cherry pick your examples. I won't even try to come up with counter examples because you won't hear them. I'll leave it to someone else if they are interested.

DeniseLR
10/11/2019 21:02 EST

Ponymalta- I wonder what you might think if I, as a neighbor, refused to help you save your burning house, or help rescue your child who is trapped under a fallen tree, unless you paid me $1000. Despicable, but okay for a corporation.

Health care is different because lives are at stake. If U.S. citizens can die because a corp, particularly a U.S. corp, won't let them pay the same price citizens in some country in S.A. pay something is seriously wrong.

Again, tiered pricing would work - check out the economics - but the right has decided progressive pricing is "free stuff".

Drug companies deserve to make a great profit and be rewarded for their research. I have said that before. But if they are so innovative maybe they can use a few more dollars they now spend to pay academics to produce potentially biased research and figure out ways to do what business types claim capitalism is all about, make GREAT products available to everyone.

Now, I'd enjoy reading your paper incorporating Friedman - I personally think Gary Becker is pretty cool - but you are too mysterious about your background.

littlebhuddha64
10/11/2019 21:04 EST

Pedroal: You left out the best part of the Shep Smith story. Barr met with Rupert Murdoch just yesterday. Wonder what they discussed?

Pedroal
10/11/2019 21:28 EST

Maybe Barr wants a job? They're quitting right and left around the Donald. And now he no longer acknowledges Giuliani as his personal attorney.
Seriously, though, it would be interesting to hear that conversation.

Pedroal
10/11/2019 22:51 EST

By the way, the SOCIALIST market economy of CHINA is the second largest economy in the world by GDP and the first using Purchasing Power Parity.
Wouldn't want to live there but that economy is working! It's not one of the "failures" cited by a poster.
Just sayin'!

Blenheim
10/11/2019 23:01 EST

Actually it is very simplistic In the real world-

Though not in the make believe socialist educators world order utopias who keep inventing new ways in teaching the superiority of socialism and equality of the masses

It is actually capitalism that has bettered many in the world than any other system

How is Argentina doing
Venezuela
Ecuador
Africa
Iraq
Iran
Somalia
Guatemala
Honduras
Africa
etc
etc

Why are there 2 million people from Venezuela now in Colombia

One needs to justify the argument why all these other counties are still 3rd world--Colonialism by the Europeans ended 60 years ago

Yes it is the evil international corporations fault--but one thought Maduro and Chavez nationalized them -so where is Venezuela's economy now--

That excuse did not work--so it is now the U.S fault for sanctions--for if not for the Americans sanctions Venezuela would be a prosperous socialist state.



.

Blenheim
10/12/2019 07:43 EST

The Chinese economy is working because of the globalists and free trade at the expense of their respective own people.. Look at Nike and the NBA==their owners selling out to the communist Chinese because they are richly rewarded as well as their players.

Many years ago a Chinese businessman explained the Chinese course of strategy to a 1st world economy. First manufacture cheap items and flood other countries with their cheap exports. (they understood manufacturing was the key to a better well being for their citizens)
As the Chinese cheap exports then took hold-this would drive other countries manufacturing processes in to bankruptcy. Once the Chinese controlled much of the worlds manufacturing capabilities, their exports would then increase in prices and their political power would then control other countries with monetary leverage. With the help of the globalists who only care of themselves and not their respective countries today we see the result
of this very simple strategy. Does not take a rocket scientist to see what has happened.

20 years ago things were made in Colombia--go to home centre today and everything is made in China.. All Christmas decorations are made in China--the communist Chinese do not believe in religion.

Where is manufacturing in Colombia
today--manufacturing creates a sustains a middle class. Most of the kids here with their degrees in journalism- economics-psychology the humanities are worthless as their are no jobs-- unless the family is already in a respective business.

ponymalta
10/12/2019 07:55 EST

denise

nothing mysterious but i certainly didnt keep my papers from 4o years ago.

i think you are missing the point-the market will set money a drug company can raise or not, and it is entirely subjective what a fair price is without killing incentives. and tiered pricing when drug company not even dealing with end user makes no sense.

however i agree with you that we are a wealthy enough society to make sure people get the medicine they need- that is why i advocate a healthcare system like or similar to UK or Europe.

ponymalta
10/12/2019 08:07 EST

Pedroal

Good point China is an interesting case since Mao's death. While it has many elements of a socialist-driven economy ( as do many European countries to an extent) it also is capitalist- and in many cases probably more pro-business than the typical Federal government bureaucrat.

(For Denise it would be an interesting paper comparing Freidman's work Capitalism and Freedom to what has happened in China the past three decades).

DeniseLR
10/12/2019 10:00 EST

Not missing the point, PM. I get the point. I may need more of a business background but I think you are too caught up in that background and need a stronger grounding in economics. (I'm sure you will disagree.) And corporations do everything they can to control the price and gain monopoly power. I'm tired of providing examples. When I talk about ways of providing tiered pricing it is a Marketing Strategy!!! Actually more profitable.

Blenheim. God Bless You. You and Nellie need to take a few tokes of strictly legal medical marijuana.

Pedroal
10/12/2019 10:38 EST

Ponymalta - thanks, though I have no idea how you know what the "typical Federal bureaucrat", whatever that is, thinks. Sounds like a stereotype.
Blenheim, I hope your armchair and personal observations and prejudices serve you in good stead and are comforting to you. You might note in your prejudice against academics that Chairman Mao did everything he could to get rid of the academics/intellectuals as an important step in solidifying his power.

Pedroal
10/12/2019 12:19 EST

PM I also appreciate your posts. Some enlightening, some maddening.

nonames
10/12/2019 12:22 EST

Blenhiem/Whoa, We've enjoyed your well informed posts and worldview in general. Thank you for continuing to strive to inform/educate the forum despite the typical name calling & classless responses from those who have no other. Keep it up as long as you can because it is appreciated.~Nona Mes

ponymalta
10/12/2019 12:40 EST

Pedroal

Hah can't disagree yes the description
federal bureaucrat' can be considered a stereotype- having dealt with some, I think fairly accurate stereotype in general The further they keep away form business and our personal circumstances the better in my opinion. As Reagan joked once, the scariest words I the English language is "I am form the government. I am here to help you."

ponymalta
10/12/2019 12:57 EST

Denise, sorry to disappoint you but I certainly have more than a basic understanding of economics and certainly of international business ( worked for 2 multinationals, plus two start ups) to have a basic grasp of how the drug companies need a powerful incentive to take the risk on developing new drugs- and enough understanding of financial statements.

Yes I think you miss the point which is very simple, how on earth is a drug manufacturer able to have tiered pricing according to the end user ( which they dot typically serve) pay a price based on their circumstances ? Have you dealt with public markets at all or have any serious study of raising capital ? If the drug company doesn't make a serious return or have the promise to do so, they wot have the capital to develop the drug I the first place !And who is to determine the "fair" price- the company selling the product ? ( I know quite a bit about the largest supplier of drugs to pharmacies in the US, guys were ruthless- I wouldn't trust them to set a "fair price" for anything even a toothpick.)

However we agree on the objective, better served through an overhaul of the US health care industry- obvious America is rich enough that people shouldn't be denied life-saving medicine.

Blenheim
10/12/2019 13:29 EST

Academics in the USA / elsewhere are successfully teaching the values of a socialist global world order of the individual versus an individuals freedom of choice.

If this is incorrect why has Venezuela and all the other socialist states in history failed.

China has thrived the same as any business which has more going out the back door because it has an endless quota coming in the front door.

Personal observations are from a non federal govt desk well pensioned bureaucrat, a non university professor with lifetime tenure, or an over educated intellectual who is above the rest of the mortal human race

Chairman Mao was a communist as Stalin--anyone in their way was killed off to solidify their power whether an Academic - intellectual-- military general or anyone else they deemed might infringe on their power.

Not prejudiced--not an armchair intellectual, not a back packer marveling at the scenery thinking of the injustices and inequities to other people of the world, rather understanding most people live as they are told to live, and those who do not sacrifice for an individuals freedom of choice.. A lesson at one time taught in American history classes.

Blenheim
10/12/2019 14:13 EST

So what i understand is free healthcare countries do not have months of waiting lists for procedures, more hospital beds than patients, --more life saving drugs than patients-- more doctors than patients. Anyone ever go to a U.K. dentist and told one has to wait 2 months for a root canal.. Or in Canada having to wait 7 weeks for an operation.

Colombia has free healthcare--although it is not really free if one has a real interest in the quality of hospitals and services rendered. Which is why Colombia also has prepagada health insurance which is not cheap--over 65 will be at a minimum of 800,000 or more pesos a month, Under 65 300,000 pesos a month.

Anyone here old enough to have seen the movie Soylent Green from 1973--A world of pollution, over population, poverty, depleted resources--amazing how many are still here. However in 12 years now understand the earths population will be extinct, unless in the interim banning beef, milk, babies, oil, gas, airplanes etc etc --except exemption for the politicians and movie stars, for they will be required to make sure the rest of us are complying.

WhoaNellie
10/12/2019 15:21 EST

Surely you do not believe the elite "do as I say not as I do" types should have to live like the peasants? It is soooo hard to keep you peons in line, we need some extra, special privileges and rewards to give us incentive for continuing to do so.

After all it is for your own good.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

? C. S. Lewis

ponymalta
10/12/2019 16:01 EST

Blenheim

There is no denying that there are problems with the NHS in the UK but at least everyone have access to affordable health care, and waiting times around the country some are not bad, and from what I can gather medical outcomes roughly the same between the Uk and the US. In any case private insurance in UK quite affordable, People under 18 or over 60 free prescriptions, otherwise flat $10 and even that can be waived if your low income or simply unemployed.

None of this BS as in the USA- my father was 91 and had both Medicare and Private insurance - one day he had to be taken to hospital in ambulance, the ambulance company hounded him for months for $1,000 until I got a lawyer to tell them ff. He got to the hospital and the entry clerk said she had to see his original security card, he fumbled and dropped his wallet and the damn person wouldn't pick it up for him which he physically couldn't do.(I was other end of room trying to get him seen to) This would never happen in the UK- they ask your name and address that is it. I know of someone else who between an operation and follow up check up lost his job so switched to medicaid- doctor refused to see the person for a check up on operation he performed. US system simply barbaric for an advanced country. I think most of us have similar stories.

As far as Colombia, I admit I always find it somewhat amusing to hear it has 'world class'medical care.

DeniseLR
10/12/2019 18:12 EST

PM - I don't agree. Senior or military discounts are examples of price differentiation. Children's fares same thing. As are different prices for the same drug in Different Countries! Or differences in prices for merchandise in different neighborhoods or towns. Here the drug companies let the government subsidize drug purchases for the poor, effectively determining price based on need. Interesting here I am encouraging corporations to be more innovative and you are pushing for British style health care with "inept bureaucrats" involved.

Just saying you understand something (economics) doesn't mean you do. Where did you go to college? I don't question your business acumen but you don't seem to recognize basic economic concepts for whatever reason. You don't think like an economist.

DeniseLR
10/12/2019 18:32 EST

Blenheim/Whoa Nellie -

Glad to see you both took my advice!
Not sure if 'Soylent Green' a documentary, but it could be! For me, '1984' is the most prescient.

CAtoMDE
10/12/2019 22:16 EST

Soylent Green a classic. Iwas a teenager and my brother and I were in awe, never forget Charlton Heston at the end "soylent green is made out of people".

Wildstubby
10/13/2019 11:31 EST

"Solyent Green" a classic indeed! Charlton Heston AND Edward G. Robinson! George Santyana said it best, "Those who can not remember the past are condemned to repeat it!"

Pedroal
10/13/2019 12:40 EST

Well, one good thing. There aren't a lot of sad defenses of Trump these days. Reality is starting to get through.
Old movies, quotes from deceased philosophers, economists, confused recapitulations of Ayn Rand who would have had to be on acid to say some of them
The same person saying virtually the same thing using different identities.
I get it. We all need something to hold on to. Partic as we age and watch our friends slip away. And we want to seem relevant even tho it is hard sometimes to get people to listen to us. Fox or its counterparts offer that sort of solace, tho we know they don't really give a sh... about us either.
Well, I know 3 things. I am going back to watch Ray Donovan who has a girl handcuffed to his towel rack, I am going to watch the Eagles and Vikings at 11, and I ain't voting for that sick, orange haired s.o.b.

WhoaNellie
10/13/2019 13:30 EST

"...I ain't voting for that sick, orange haired s.o.b."

It's your right to vote, or not vote, for whomever you please.

But YOU are the one who is sick. Hate like yours is why President Trump will be re-elected. People are sickened by it.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS 2020 VISION FOR AMERICA!

Pedroal
10/13/2019 13:34 EST

We're all sick. Some of us just know it and. want to do something about it. Sorry if hitting a little too close to home.

WhoaNellie
10/13/2019 14:14 EST

"We're all sick. Some of us just know it and. want to do something about it. Sorry if hitting a little too close to home."

You speak only for yourself and other leftists.

Pedroal
10/13/2019 14:18 EST

But I'm not a "leftist". Is that what you call anyone who disagrees with you?
Now that's it for today. Eagles seem to be making a comeback.

WhoaNellie
10/13/2019 15:03 EST

'But I'm not a "leftist". Is that what you call anyone who disagrees with you?'

Pretty easy to tell from your posts.

At least I did not call you an "orange haired SOB".

littlebhuddha64
10/13/2019 16:49 EST

Be careful. Whoa Ellie has his panties in a bunch. Can’t handle the fact that trumpf will be run out of office and a strong woman will take his place. He’s having a hard time dealing with his Alzheimer’s diagnosis

Pedroal
10/13/2019 17:15 EST

LOL. I hear the WH is looking for ambassadors ??.!!! Sycophants given priority.

WhoaNellie
10/13/2019 17:15 EST

Yep, this is the way it goes...

The leftists insult, call names, denigrate, and they do it with impunity - dare to fight back and you are excoriated - even when you don't call names in kind like they do.

When President Trump is re-elected I look forward to seeing liberal heads explode. Yes, President Trump will be "run out of office" - in January 2025, as he is Constitutionally mandated to serve no more than two terms...

"littlebhuddha64" can't even spell "Buddha" correctly, and thinks "Here, here!" is the correct usage - but *I* have Alzheimer's?

littlebhuddha64
10/13/2019 17:36 EST

Of course whoa Ellie never serves up insults and name calling. What’s a matter wus? Can’t handle what you dish out!?

ponymalta
10/13/2019 17:51 EST

Whoa Nellie, I thought you might find this amusing that I was forwarded, and to our leftist friends no offense meant,

"Professor Holly Barker penned her outrageously absurd tirade in an academic journal called The Contemporary Pacific: A Journal of Island Affairs.

In her article, Barker argues that the fictional location of Bikini Bottom is horribly offensive because it is based on the nonfiction Bikini Atoll, a coral reef in the Marshall Islands that was used by the US military for nuclear testing during the Cold War.

The indigenous people of the area were relocated during the testing, which eventually rendered the area uninhabitable due to residual radiation,” writes Celine Ryan. “Barker finds it unjust that SpongeBob and his pals be allowed to ‘occupy’ the area when the nonfictional indigenous people of the area do not have the option to return to their homeland.”

All this on a cartoon about a talking sponge.

Barker argues that SpongeBob is privileged, because of course she does. The reasoning, if you can call it that, is that he is an “American character” who can go about his life carefree without having to worry about the detonation of nuclear bombs."

I used to have to watch this show with my daughter, I admit I must have been terribly insensitive to not consider a talking Sponge and his antics could be so terrible.

ponymalta
10/13/2019 18:03 EST

Yes Denise, I find it amusing I need a "stronger grounding in economics" after patiently explaining to you the economics of the particular industry being discussed and for my undergraduate degree spending 2 years of independent study on History of Economic Thought, plus for my MBA a course in Economics and International. Economics. I don't claim to be an expert in Economics in any means bit certainly beyond a basic understanding.

By all means it would be interesting how the people in the industry themselves haven't grasped your point such tiered pricing may be more profitable ! I admit trying to fathom how a drug manufacturer would offer tiered pricing to distributor based on the pricing of the distributor to the pharmacy then to their end user, all based on income of the end user, us rather had to imagine in practice. What would one do, give one's tax return to the pharmacy ?

Again though I think we agree on the main objective, that people have access to life-saving drugs. especially in advanced economies that can afford it- and the only way I see that so through the policies of the insurance companies or the government.

prudhommer49
10/13/2019 18:13 EST

About 70% of the economy is consumer sales based. We are just now going into the busiest quarter of the year for consumer sales. The job market is red hot, China and US have just agreed to a tentative deal and the Fed probably will lower interest rates one more time before years end. Recession is defined as 2 quarters of negative growth. Depending on the Christmas season sales and the Fed cuts we might not see negative GDP till maybe 2021. MAYBE?

WhoaNellie
10/13/2019 18:36 EST

"What’s a matter wus? Can’t handle what you dish out!?"

Sorry, littleman64, I was taught never to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

DeniseLR
10/13/2019 18:41 EST

Ponymalta -

Seriously? Respectfully, you explained patiently the economics of a partic industry to me ? In one paragraph? Particularly one as complex as the pharmaceutical industry.? This proves my assertion. I wouldn't claim to be a genius (or I wouldn't be on this forum) but I have worked as an economist and taken graduate courses in Economic History and the History of Economic Thought. It was pretty clear to me you hadn't read the Friedman book. Still curious where you went to school. I got BA in California, Doctorate in NM.

What is clear is that you are very clever and polished. Sometimes that will get you a lot further than backbreaking study.

Anyway, no big deal. It would just be nice if we could be more honest with each other.

DeniseLR
10/13/2019 18:53 EST

LB, I am with you. Plenty of right leaning INTELLIGENT types are catching on to this "President" particularly after the debacle in Syria, which seems to be defended on this site by at least one self proclaimed U.S. citizen. More than half the U.S. in favor of removal. Tick tock.
We'll see about the recession. It has already been a historically long time between them if it occurs tomorrow. China deal isn't 100% resolved. Global uncertainy due to this President is ramping up and will have a big effect on business decisions. Again, Trump Republican deficit largest in history.
Tick tock.

prudhommer49
10/13/2019 18:58 EST

What has this turned into Junior High. Hurray for free speech!!!! Jajajajaja.

DeniseLR
10/13/2019 19:01 EST

????????Thumbs up. For some reason the app won't let me click that, just the thumbs down icon.

DeniseLR
10/13/2019 19:20 EST

PM -
Check out 'Financing and Distribution of Pharmaceuticals in the U.S." JAMA Or 'The Flow of Money though the Pharmaceutical Distribution System". 41% of the money is taken up by intermediaries. A lot of thing stranger than tiered pricing are going on. It is complex, nothing like your 'patient' explanation.

Anyway, I give up. I'm sure Nellie or one of his other screen names will lend a sympathetic ear.

DeniseLR
10/13/2019 19:46 EST

Also check out

'Tiered Pricing Opens New Markets to Pharmaceuticals' the Financial Times.
'Tiered Pricing Strategies in the Global Pharmaceutical Market' IHS Markit,
'Pharmaceuticals Cross New Frontiers in Global Markets with Tiered Pricing' Pharma Times.

There are many more.

littlebhuddha64
10/13/2019 19:57 EST

Whoa Ellie: (yawn)

Pedroal
10/13/2019 20:56 EST

Since we were sort of discussing movies, I wonder if anyone has seen "A Face in the Crowd" with Andy Griffith. A lot of parallels with what is going on right now.

nonames
10/13/2019 21:34 EST

What arrogance to write: "...seems to be defended on this site by at least one self proclaimed U.S. citizen." This by the prolific poster who has a "self proclaimed" doctorate from NM. and why not? We're all self proclaimed here...Doctor.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 00:37 EST

What arrogance to butt into a discussion you don't understand. Can't you come up with something of your own, you sad .... Well, you get the point homegirl.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 00:56 EST

Nona, I think Pony Mala is a bright guy. I haven't been following this thread long but I think he can take care of himself. I don't believe any one specified him as being the target in that post. "What arrogance!" indeed. Are you for real? Well, self proclaimed real anyway.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 02:27 EST

Denise I would suggest you re-think your approach to people with different views- calling people dishonest, and even more so for idiotic reasons ( like someone able to remember an address where they lived and worked) or because not wishing to disclose personal details on an internet forum- and all prompted because I gave an opinion about US education based on my own experience both as a parent and a teacher or questioned the intelligence of AOC is all a bit much. It is ironic that for all the complaints about Trump's boorish behavior ( which it is) and his name calling the people on the left seem to routinely call people dishonest or racist at a drop of a that.This Trump-like approach to debate is part of the issue in the US today.

It is indeed laughable for me since i spent over a year cooped up in a library studying- which I remedied by becoming an avid drinker for a year to then be questioned about my economic knowledge. I ever claimed to be an economist or have attended a top school, though the two metro for my independent study one of which was from Oxford actually tried to get me agree to go to LSE.

As far as "back breaking' study how on earth would you have the slightest idea of what I have or haven't done academically ? I got my undergraduate degree in Europe, MA and MBA in the USA, Graduate Certificate in USA and finishing a second one this month.

You seemed to get all out of sorts about by comments about US education- which I admitted should have used a bit more qualifying language. I have a leaving certificate from Australia, a US high school diploma and two British A levels, have hired graduates from UK/USA/Colombia/Canada,- plus my children have studied in USA and Colombia, one also in England as well. So I have some basis for my comments, and I won't guess whether you have much direct experience with education systems between countries though I would think it is quite possible you may have studied the issue more than I have- I have just had to live through it

Dense I quite enjoy reading your perspective and occasionally we agree on some issues. A degree of politeness is always in order. .

ponymalta
10/14/2019 02:30 EST

Denise, I will check out those articles on JSTOR as from a standpoint of business experience having worked having worked for the largest drug distributor in the USA ( yea I remember the address , 1 Post street) and some understanding of economics I can't imagine how within the USA that would work with the general population. Between countries is a different matter.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 02:39 EST

Denise, who are you referring to as a self-proclaimed US citizen defending Trump's recent Syria move ? If it is me I must be missing something where did I defend his recent move ?

ponymalta
10/14/2019 02:59 EST

nonames

I have no reason to doubt Denise has a PhD and certainly anyone who has a PhD has gone through a lot of work to get it. Even if I did, without even knowing the person, I would not be questioning the person's honesty.

The knee-jerk reaction against anything Trump does, like those exhibiting similar knew-jerk reactions to Obama, does bring into question objectivity.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 09:24 EST

PM -I think I am using my BF's i.d. We started out on the Mexico site but decided there was too much craziness, partic once Trump took office, to go there so are researching Colombia. Don't want to change and rewrite this so excuse me. I enjoy reading your posts when they are intelligent, thoughtful and well written, as above.

I do not enjoy the ones that are brief, dismissive, patronizing. Sometimes it seems necessary to yell at you a little to get you to think about something you gloss over.

I also admit it is difficult to listen to a straight out paean of multi national corporations that are destroying the environment, providing weapons of war to countries around the world, and doing everything they can to influence politicians and fight off even the most humane and well thought out regs. You say all the above isn't relevant to their mission and we should just let the market decide. It is an obscene distortion of capitalism, IMO. And global warming, the essential crisis of our times .... well, no big deal.

You wanted the U.S. to leave the Russians alone and not aggravate them. This is what happens. I didn't identify you. You identified yourself.
And you are constantly bringing up Obama tho he hasn't been President for a while now and if anything the central foreign polucy error and the one that really destabilized the region was Bush Jr. and his invasion of Iraq because of imaginary weapons of mass destruction.

Anyway, I'd appreciate knowing where you went to college. I received my graduate education later in life.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 09:30 EST

It is not a knee jerk reaction when the person is a compulsive liar, can't keep a staff member with integrity for any length of time and just condemned 1000s of our allies to death. And it is not everything he does. That is a false depiction of the stance of many decent, concerned people. Anyway, why bother? It is like trying to convince someone that the basic tenets of their religion are false.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 09:40 EST

Pedroal,

I would be the last person to attest to the veracity of Trump, but it does seem ( as with opponents of Obama) that anything Trump does automatically those that dislike him will criticize him. Same with Obama before.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 09:51 EST

Switched to my own handle. When I use his - Pedro- i.d. he gets a little out of sorts. Problem with using same computer and forgetting to log in.

Pony Malta I don't care really what you think as an individual and if what you say is true you certainly have a wealth of experience. But when you tout your own resume and then try to dismiss other's ideas by tossing in a few comments about your own experience without any details of why what you say it is true... If any student wrote a paper with a few sentences telling me I was being educated on the economics of the pharmaceutical industry... I don't buy it. The complexity of the distributor pipeline is really involved. I don't know exactly how a tiered system would be implemented but I don't think from what you've told me at least that you know enough about pharmaceutical intermediaries to know either. And most providers already have financial information for many of their patients. Hell, I've worked for big corps but that doesn't make me an expert on everything they do and if I thought that I'd be crazy.

Now, I am listening to Trump at one of his rallies. Everyone that stands up to him hates our country and is a traitor. That's scary. Anyone that can hear that and not be revolted lacks a soul, or if you don't believe in souls empathy, compassion and common sense.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 09:54 EST

Denise, I could ask why using two id's but who cares.

Releasing personal information on the internet in an era of Trump Derangement Syndrome, and about institutions I am affiliated with doesnt make much sense. I didnt go to a prestigious business school taught by a bunch of PhD's without business experience teachers, were generally with experience at top companies.My humanities degrees from nowhere special. Dont understand what the issue is.

As far as Obama I think generally my comment has been those who were against Obama excessively demonstrated many of same ways as those against Trump.

As far as yelling or questioning someone's honesty, name calling or or bad language or insults, all I would think unacceptable here or anywhere. But everyone brought up differently but no one is perfect.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 10:03 EST

PM - I told you why I used Pedro's i.d. I went to some schools that definitely werent ivy league - like E. Warren- but I'm not ashamed of them, put myself through, and worked hard to learn. One thing I have found is that he gets on right away. My posts takes a while.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 10:09 EST

Pedroal,

This is a great site for information about Colombia which is a nice laid-back cheap country to live in with wonderfully friendly people. Except if one is actively seeking to chat about politics with Gringos. one can live here without every having to talk about US politics. One could argue parts of southern Europe offer much more than Colombia but hard to beat Colombian prices and general friendliness.

I cant remember the last time a Colombian wished to talk about Trump. I find this thread interesting because I do not understand how the divisiveness has reached this level in the states. Anyway I think if you wished you would find Gringos of kindred spirit in Colombia if you wished but most seem to be more intent on enjoying life. But moving here is more an issue what sort of life do you want- waking up to the green hills of Colombia a great way to start the day !

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 10:22 EST

PM - Now, that last post is something we can agree on 100% Perhaps that is really a key to why we disagree, at least in part. But what is going on here is real and scary and is not good for anyone in the world. Another 4 years of Trump would be disastrous, and it is not just the Dems that think that., despite the fact that he wants to label them traitors. We see how some of his followers think from some of the deranged posts on this site. The truth really does matter and giving weight to lies as just another perspective is venal.

Now, why DID Shepard Smith resign right after Barr met with Rupert Murdoch?

ponymalta
10/14/2019 10:27 EST

pedroal

simply drug manufactures must have a few big successes to justify the huge investment in time and money on research and development, and having worked for the largest drug distributor and experience in public markets, i know a bit about how the industry operates. i took your comment seriously so i looked up the financial statements of that company which showed what i expected. on the surface i cant imagine how a drug manufacturer would have a tiered system within the US (but i will up one of those articles) but the basic financial structure i wrote about is pretty much easy to see within the industry. these guys are driven by numbers to expect them to determine and prioritize a 'fair price is unrealistic.'

i dont know about the restaurant business so i wouldnt have an opinion on that.

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 10:42 EST

PM - Don't know if tiered system workable or not but if implemented it would have to be through the formidable group of intermediaries, not the producer of the drug.

spikerivet
10/14/2019 10:59 EST

Blenheim, Amidst a few factual inaccuracies, you did hit upon some truths that people should hear.
Whew! , that was quite the Blenheim blitzkrieg, Blenheim! Very ominous!

You sound like one angry old man. When I say that, I'm not trying to be snippy, because I bet you don't have 10 years on me. So to what do we owe this? Is this a possible fear of Elizabeth Warren?

About the only thing you said that didn't have an unpleasant tone was about the placas. WhereTF did that come from? If you were a kid growing up now, you sound like you'd be a prime candidate to take your AK-47 and blow away all your teachers at their faculty meeting.

You have some useful information for vets. And you think you are the only ones entitled to a government check in retirement? B.S. to that, and everyone else here thinks that too. We're at least that much socialist. It sounds like you might have been an innocent kid who got fooled into a sh-t war. If so, I know a bunch of people like you. But to talk with that sense of privilege over the rest of us, you better have gone to war!

ponymalta
10/14/2019 11:17 EST

denise

the distributor in worked for operated on very very low margins in order to maintain market share, and since they didn't sell to end user, it would be a nightmare for them to tier their prices by income of end user via the pharmacy or hospital- plus since often they re-stock pharmacies automatically, they would to constantly having to follow up with pharmacy on what drugs were sold to who. much easier to have insurance company or government handle that side. in UK this is done so for example someone who is unemployed, under 18 or over 60, or low income gets free prescriptions. after all Obama-care premiums based on income, so leg work would already have been done for example.

i will mention though Hilary in her proposals in the 1990's which detailed a lot of study arrived at conclusion using standardized forms would save millions, so perhaps combining that with the insurance companies or government handling the qualification could work. but simply determining what a fair price is subjective, and hardly something a drug manufacturer is set up to do.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 11:25 EST

Denise, not scary for me at all, doesn't affect my life.

The issue is even if one accepts that it would be a disaster another 4 years of Trump, which I am not sure I do, the alternative can be seen as much worse- Warren could cause a crash in the economy for example, and the costs of what the Democrats at least on the campaign trail could bankrupt the country ( beyond where it already is). How having an anti-business environment compared to a pro-business administration will benefit the country is at the very least debatable.

spikerivet
10/14/2019 11:56 EST

Now you're pulling the ominous card Pony. Those arguments always confuse Wall Street with Main Street.
Elizabeth Warren is a self described Capitalist.

The markets have been kind to me from the Obama years and the Trump years have just extended it --Fingers crossed...

What would happen to the markets under Warren.? They'd lose 20-25% of their value over a year, and bump around the bottom for a while.. Utilities and consumer staples would benefit as a safe harbor. Health care stocks would plummet, but so what? There are 1000's of other stocks and a hundred other sectors to play.

The better argument is that the big money would take their money overseas. That can remedied. If people don't want to invest in our domestic economy, and invest in say China, they can just stick them for a much higher tax rate.

It's a fallacy to talk about a "free market," What you never hear about is that every country has tariff's up the yin yang. There's already extensive regulation going on everywhere .

spikerivet
10/14/2019 12:13 EST

A point I forgot to mention is that after an initial market fall, There would be a readjustment with new market leaders and sectors and the cycle would start again. These periods of fluctuation always happen over the course of years.

If something was to completely collapse, then the problem was endemic and was eventually going to happen anyway.

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 12:17 EST

And that is a worst case scenario under Warren. I'd rather have a few fewer corps and have breathable air and drinkable water. And things overseas aren't necess better for corps. Even under Dems the U.S. is business friendly.
Good points Spike.

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 12:19 EST

Pony Malta, I thought you worked for Big Pharma, not a distributor. Come on, now. How do they survive in Canada or Mexico, then, where drug prices are much lower?

nonames
10/14/2019 12:24 EST

Hey Pony, The only reason I'm "questioning" her doctorate (of which I could care less) is to point out her continued hypocrisy by her questioning your claim to US citizenship,(I re-read the older posts). Double Standard Denise likes to paint others with a broad brush and then belittle them when they object. That's all Ponyman! OH, and now an ardent admirer of hers, PFleetwood, is stalking me on another forum topic (Learning Spanish) to call me names related to this topic. Some sort of weirdo I guess.
I mean these people don't even live in Colombia and frequent other country forums repeating the same MO's. ~Nona Mes

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 12:37 EST

No I stand corrected. You did say largest drug distributor. In what city?

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 12:50 EST

PM - so you either worked for Amerisource, Cardinal or Mckesson. Headquarters respectively in Pennsylvania, Ohio and Ireland, and Texas. None on #1 Post Street. But all are huge so their offices could be anywhere. It would be interesting to find out what your position was and where you worked.

Noone likes middle men, IMO, despite the fact that they tell you they are an indispensable feature of efficient markets.

I used to work for the University of California. Doubt if that info is putting me at risk.

WhoaNellie
10/14/2019 12:55 EST

This is a good article that explains why drug prices are different in different places:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/11/30/12945756/prescription-drug-prices-explained

Anyone who has studied economics, formally or informally, would probably already know about this in principle if not in detail.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 12:57 EST

Denise, no I said distributor largest in usa with huge market share.

It isn't complicated. large drug companies need to make a certain return to raise capital ad male up for losses, length of time for approvals, and make their target IRR before patent expires.

Distributors work on small margins to retain market share.

Abroad because of legal restrictions and other factors they can sell at different price as they have already met their targets generally from usa market. convincing them to change their business model for some arbitrary "fair price". seems a stretch- and these guys I have come across are ruthless, if they could have done so at a profit I think they would have done. but I will look up those articles.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 12:57 EST

Denise, no I said distributor largest in usa with huge market share.

It isn't complicated. large drug companies need to make a certain return to raise capital ad male up for losses, length of time for approvals, and make their target IRR before patent expires.

Distributors work on small margins to retain market share.

Abroad because of legal restrictions and other factors they can sell at different price as they have already met their targets generally from usa market. convincing them to change their business model for some arbitrary "fair price". seems a stretch- and these guys I have come across are ruthless, if they could have done so at a profit I think they would have done. but I will look up those articles.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 12:57 EST

Denise, no I said distributor largest in usa with huge market share.

It isn't complicated. large drug companies need to make a certain return to raise capital ad male up for losses, length of time for approvals, and make their target IRR before patent expires.

Distributors work on small margins to retain market share.

Abroad because of legal restrictions and other factors they can sell at different price as they have already met their targets generally from usa market. convincing them to change their business model for some arbitrary "fair price". seems a stretch- and these guys I have come across are ruthless, if they could have done so at a profit I think they would have done. but I will look up those articles.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 13:07 EST

great link whoa nellie, explains situation a lot better than I ever could.

mattinnorfolk
10/14/2019 13:14 EST

Happy Columbus Day to everyone as America celebrates their destruction of North America with are partner to the North. Perhaps we can have some fun today and play a version of my favorite Christmas movie "It's A Wonderful Life" . We can let the USA be George Bailey and Clarence the angel will show us how it looks. This is sarcasm, but it might be fun, or at least interesting. Saludos!!!!!!

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 13:19 EST

PM

It may not be practical but I don't believe you know. Do you know how many times businesses have failed because they failed to implement some simple thing that seemed obvious to a newcomer, but which they ignored because they were so entrenched in usual practises? Capitalism IS innovation. Even tiered international sales were innovative. And it is not because they have made all their profit in the U.S. No economist would make that statement!

I used to work for a Health Policy Organization but I wouldn't claim to know all about Health Policy. And when I do try to pontificate I freq get shot down by someone who has a little more information I missed. You may be correct but I don't find your arguments convincing. If 41% of $$! spent on pharmaceuticals go to intermediaries they must be selling a lot of drugs -3,000,000 units per day for AmeriSource Bergen - with a small profit margin per unit.

I am not going to waste much more time trying to research all this. It falls into the category of Hillary's qualifications for Secty of State. I will just use your argument - I will look into it but you are wrong. (I will be first to apologize if that turns out to NOT be the case.)

Blenheim
10/14/2019 13:21 EST

Trust others realize the seriousness of the over emotional baseless prime school candidate accusations to another on a public site--

If one does not live and own a car in Colombia, most have no idea what pico plata is. If one owns a car in Colombia good for them --

Good for people celebrating indigenous peoples day as well as the Cherokee Indian senator. Most still celebrate Columbus day.

Many know a lot of VFW members with respect--others have nothing but disgust due to their intellectual superiority, jealousy, ran to Canada or rewarded with an dishonorable discharge.

Blenheim
10/14/2019 13:21 EST

Trust others realize the seriousness of the over emotional baseless prime school candidate accusations to another on a public site--

If one does not live and own a car in Colombia, most have no idea what pico plata is. If one owns a car in Colombia good for them --

Good for people celebrating indigenous peoples day as well as the Cherokee Indian senator. Most still celebrate Columbus day.

Many know a lot of VFW members with respect--others have nothing but disgust due to their intellectual superiority, jealousy, ran to Canada or rewarded with an dishonorable discharge.

ponymalta
10/14/2019 13:28 EST

spikerivet

not just health stocks, energy and mining, banking, and possible large tech companies and car companies, all could- I said could- tank under warren or someone with her policies. and with the sort of tax rates she and sanders proposing large amounts of capital could flee the country. The general improvement in the business regulatory environment could (probably) be reversed. I would hazard a guess two years into a warren presidency IF democrats controlled both houses of congress we could see currency controls for larger amounts.

however most likely if the republicans control the senate she wont get everything she wants, and I don't think most americans ready for the cost and lifestyle changes of the green new deal.

though I guess on the other hand republicans don't any bold moves beyond tax reduction, trade deals or less regulatory bother.

so best to relax in Colombia and just be prepared to short the market.

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 13:29 EST

Whoa Nellie - not everyone is as smart as you are!

I suggest googling a more recent piece on Vox. May 10, 2018
'The True Story of America's Sky- High- Drug Prices".

But someone like you prob doesn't need to, knowing it already.

mattinnorfolk
10/14/2019 13:29 EST

Incredible article Whoa, it really heightened my education on drug pricing.

Blenheim
10/14/2019 13:36 EST

It is a wonderful life--yes it is--in a great country for opportunity by hard work, not by socialism and communism

Recommend one visit --Camerron, Zimbawe, most of the rest of Africa,
Airfares to Haiti are cheap and very close, and see how wonderful their wonderful lives are--

Columbus was an Italian and financed by Spain. --Blame those racist Italians and Spaniards, not the rest of us northern Europeans

Pedroal
10/14/2019 13:39 EST

The May 2018 Vox article - 'The True Story of America's Sky High Drug Prices' -Denise recommended to me is really good. May be PM will read it.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 14:00 EST

Ponymalta I have to say, you are just a slick, well spoken version of a right winger. Paul Ryan rather than Louie Gojmert (that's Ellie or Blenheim) I don't think it is worth trying to intelligently discuss anything of significance because it never gets anywhere. You seem to have done everything and been everywhere but don't really have the life experiences to match, at least in your posts. Things that are obvious to us aren't so to you and vice versa. And it is sad because you are a bright guy.

We don't hate capitalism, we aren't traitors and we aren't apologists for wanna be tyrants. And we don't aspire to live in a country we run down and whom our leader, who we seem to have stopped defending, considers a sh... hole and would like to keep most of its residents from coming any closer to the U.S.

Drug prices in the U.S. seems to subsidize risky research which benefits the rest of the world more. We have to deal with it but not by embracing the status quo. Now that's it for me.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 14:03 EST

Denise mentioned she caught her error about your position for a distributor right away but her posts take forever to get put up. She doesn't agree with you but doesn't want to misunderstand what you are saying either.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 14:50 EST

Perhaps you corporate (so called) capitalists, self appointed patriots and false equivalence types would enjoy the faked video of Trump shooting up a church. This as reported in the NYT was shown at a Trump sponsored campaign rally at one of his properties.

Pedroal
10/14/2019 14:59 EST

PM Your suppositions about what might happen under Warren are absurd. But the right-wing spin machine - of which you are a part - will do everything it can to make people think that it will. How about some careful, researched analysis?

God knows what would happen under Trump.

WhoaNellie
10/14/2019 16:43 EST

"God knows what would happen under Trump."

What, have you been in a self-applied drug-induced coma for the last almost three years?

Not only does God know, so do the American people - the lowest unemployment in 50+ years for EVERYONE (because he's a racist!), a booming economy, a record-high stock market, and the assurance that President Trump is NOT a warmonger, and will NOT get us into foreign wars spending American lives, for big financial interests and ruthless regimes and oppressive dictators.

People experience all of the above.
Then they listen to what all the Democrat candidates say, and compare and contrast. That's why he will be re-elected in 2020. Suck it up, buttercup.

WhoaNellie
10/14/2019 16:50 EST

"Whoa Nellie - not everyone is as smart as you are!

I suggest googling a more recent piece on Vox. May 10, 2018
'The True Story of America's Sky- High- Drug Prices".

But someone like you prob doesn't need to, knowing it already."
************************************

But I do know this: You never bothered to read the article I posted, with this link I posted in my original post:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/11/30/12945756/prescription-drug-prices-explained

How do I know? Because the article you posted is the EXACT SAME ARTICLE I posted!

Why am I not at all surprised...

Blenheim
10/14/2019 17:56 EST

Blenheim is in his 70's, retired, Married to a Colombian who also has dual passports,

Worked and lived in many countries, not having worked with, or a contractor with the U..S. government, rather an independent contractor of own means.

We live in Colombia and the states, and have property in both countries.
Best of lick to those who make it to their seventies, and then can also afford to live in 2 different countries. at will. This with only a high school education,

"A Right winger-- Louie Gohmert"--The terms suggests distress to over educated intellectuals who spend their time trashing normal people.

Having a higher education does not always equate to class in life, work ethic, or common sense. Many of lesser education have better class and sense in the real world.

Spelled Gohmert not Gojmert-
Representative Ryan was going to lose his seat ----

Best economy in 50 years--anyone who wants to work in the states can find work--others live on gratuitous money, others with scholarships on worthless degrees such as the humanities, political science, white privilege, etc--etc

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 18:33 EST

'Differential Pricing of Pharmaceuticals: Theory, Evidence and Emerging Issues' Patricia M. Danzon, Current Opinion, PharmacoEconomics.

She notes that differential pricing, not tiered pricing but similar - tiered pricing is a subset of differential pricing - also occurs in domestic markets across drug plans due to negotiation power and strategies and implementation of various commonly used discounts ( which may also be used for the poor and elderly).

(Very complex article. Nellie may have to explain it to us. ;-)

DeniseLR
10/14/2019 18:51 EST

This is a good one and downplays the R&D cost narrative that Big Pharma and PM push.

Newsweek 3/7/17 'How Prescription Drugs Get Their Prices, Explained' Jessica Wapner.

Very good.

WhoaNellie
10/14/2019 19:57 EST

"(Very complex article. Nellie may have to explain it to us. ;-)"

All my life I've had a very highly-tuned and sensitive BS detector - and it's only gotten better over time. I know a phony when I see one (or read one, in your case).

You never even read the article I posted - but then snarkily suggested I read a later article you recommended - which was the very same article I had already posted.

So I know it's a waste of time to try to explain anything to you.

ponymalta
10/15/2019 05:49 EST

Denise,

Bug Pharma needs to have the funds to place the big bets on drug development, and small bio-tech companies in particular- and the suppliers of such funds require big returns if venture capital, or the market determines what return is expected.I for one wish to see continued advances in drugs available to improve peoples lives. Furthermore looking at the financial statements of drug companies, in show they make money and can lose money. Nothing in the article contradicts the risks involved in developing a new drug. The article furthermore shows the issue of Medicare price-negotiating issues. Expecting drug companies and venture capitalists to go by nebulous "fair prices" means they would just put their money elsewhere.That is just reality which I know socialists seem to have a tendency to avoid.

However as I have said, the issue of access and affordability of life-saving drugs I agree should be better addressed in the USA through how the health care system is structured, and as the article well points out bulk pricing issues. Expecting bureaucrats anywhere trying to micro manage the economy rarely produces positive results.

ponymalta
10/15/2019 06:31 EST

Denise, I cant argue against that capitalism promotes innovation, and certainly we have seen in the 21st century all sort of 'disruptors' in all sorts of of industry sectors.I read the VOX article the others not yet. The big takeaway I say is not tiered pricing issues, but simply other countries like the example of Australia (a) limit the availability of some drugs (b) engage in bulk purchasing thus have more negotiating power. The bulk purchasing approach seems a no-brainer.

I certainly want the Big Pharma companies to be profitable enough to attract the capital to develop advanced drugs. I dont expect them, or distributors or pharmacies to be determining who gets a discount or not, and or government bureaucrats too involved in allocating capital. I honestly can't imagine walking ito a pharmacy and having to show my paycheck to determine what price I pay, and for the life of me I dot know how anyone can objective determine what a 'fair price ' is. But fair enough maybe the articles you referred to show how such a system could work in practice.

I know under Obama-care at least Care Source in Ohio premiums were based on income, and a particular plan didn't differentiate the price- so easy for pharmacy to give the prescription, whether they knew or not what the person was paying for a premium. In the UK based on age or income people can get free prescriptions, but that is because they pre-qualify with the relevant government agency.

Ultimately I think you agree that no one should be denied a life-saving drug in a country as rich as the USA still is. My argument is simply the UK and Europe have systems in place to deal with issue we can learn from.

A friend of mine's daughter have a life threatening medical issue which ended up being flow to New York for a two month hospital stay- I would guess cost about half a million, and she has to take drugs costing over $1,000 a month- their monthly premium is $70 , and they live in an eastern european country where decent wage is $1,700 a month.I dont think going after Big Pharma will solve the structural issues. No one in the UK needs to go bankrupt over medical bills.

ponymalta
10/15/2019 06:55 EST

Pedroal

You honestly believe that by stating what Warren herself says her plans are I am part of a right-wing spin machine ? That my positions on health care and universal basic income are right-wing policies ? I am not some sort of party member that automatically believes everything Trump does is wrong or everything Obama did was wrong.

If things are so 'obvious; they would be easy to demonstrate.

Who said you were traitors or hated capitalism- though you and Denise seem to be anti-business and in favor of more damn regulation.

Like many people on the forum I have lived in different places, so what, I would think we can all learn form each other's experiences and view points without expressing animosity, accusing people of lying, insulting people or our leaders, and just being tolerant and open-minded.

As far as which people should come into the country certainly there can be room for debate and considering the state of the world better to be safe than sorry.

If you dislike the USA so much that you"aspire" to live somewhere else no one stopping you. Colombia a great place to live, and if you have US teaching certifications the UK or Australia viable options as well. Or Denise having a PhD opens a lot of options- register for the EU Blue Card program and maybe something will arise.

ponymalta
10/15/2019 07:08 EST

Blenheim,

While I agree with you the low employment rate , and evidently slowly rising real wages after years of stagnation, are real positives , I have to ask why humanities represent worthless degrees ? Sure some of this post-modernist political correctness crap results in some rather arcane subjects studied in colleges- but I would think general humanities enriches our society.

ponymalta
10/15/2019 07:20 EST

Denise,

Mckesson used to be headquartered at 1 Post street- I just looked at Google and seems they still are. Ruthless but efficient guys ran the place when I was there. The did start moving a lot of personnel out of San Francisco because of the costs in particular the crazy city payroll tax, and like many companies the cost of living for average employees too high.

DeniseLR
10/15/2019 12:26 EST

Re: Pharmaceuticals and price discrimination. Here is a simple economic model. There is a market of 2 groups of consumers, 10 rich and 1000 poor. The rich can pay $10,000 each for a life saving drug, the poor $90.

A profit maximizing firm who doesn't feel it is their job to worry about those who can't afford their product will, if they can only charge 1 market price, charge $10,000 and make $100,000 rather than $90,000 to the poor at $90 per unit. They will make an extra $10,000 and the poor (us) will suffer.

If, however, they are able to price discriminate (in this case a very simple form of tiered pricing - this market only has 2 tiers) they will sell 1,010 units of the drug, capture the entire market, and make $190,000.

And noone will, hopefully, die. Now make the 10 rich people 10,000 instead and the 1000 poor (us) 1,000,000 consumers and it looks more like a real market. Firms don't care about the 1,000,000 if they can ignore them by catering to the 10,000.

DeniseLR
10/15/2019 14:56 EST

Tiered Pricing and Pharmaceuticals- Additional comments in anticipation of questions/criticism.

This was a very simple model to illustrate a concept. Clearly pharmaceutical models are much more complex, possibly unnecessarily so. If you don't get it or disagree review simple supply and demand curves, consume8r and producer surplus.

A product differentiation /tiered pricing solution might best work with the really expensive drugs, frequently infusable, where the PBMs (Pharmacy Benefit Managers) might (I say might!) prove useful in that implementation.

Another interesting and crazy/innovative idea (you decide) would be a kind of commodities market for certain pharmaceuticals, where people can contract to buy them at a certain price in the future, buy and sell short, etc. Assuming something like this isn't in place now. Now that is a real market based solution. I would suggest if you find it horrifying you aren't as much of a capitalist as you may think you are (if you consider yourself a capitalist).

For the argument that many of us can't afford the high price of drugs because those of us that can are financing research the rest of the world benefits from, even though they - the rest of the world - pay much lower prices, I would argue that this is a debatable question, not an issue that is crystal clear. And it is certainly a narrative advanced by the drug companies, who are only interested in making money, not necessarily clarity.

Anyway, I enjoyed working this through for myself. I hope someone else might appreciate, but it was fun for me putting this together.

ponymalta
10/15/2019 16:47 EST

Denise,

All fine and dandy but drug companies don't sell the to end user, and often through an entity that then re-sells to the entity that then sells to end user. So the drug company in many cases has no idea the income of the end user. And pharmacies I am sure do not want to get involved in determining the income of the end user.

DeniseLR
10/15/2019 17:34 EST

Now, having said all this, I see no further purpose participating in a thread dominated by a few know it all, patronizing (fine and dandy) amateurs who utilize Fox News spin of various levels of sophistication, are interested more in winning an argument than getting to the truth, and who paint superficial resumes of glorified pasts without any hint of real substantiation.

Who deny the realities of climate change and worship corporate welfare more than any interest in helping the plight of the desperate and the poor. At this point in time I find your views disgusting and reckless. I hope you find some solace in your decling years as the problems with global warming, fires, hurricanes and floods ramp up, immigration problems with desperate individuals fleeing areas of drought, floods, war increase, that if people had just listened to you and kept on buying gas, voting Republican and pumping oil out of the ground things will just have resolved themselves.

WhoaNellie
10/15/2019 19:41 EST

"Now, having said all this, I see no further purpose participating..."

Is that a promise? That would be a first, for a leftist, to actually keep a promise...

We know-it-all amateurs on the right are reality-driven. You on the left are fantasy-driven.

When fantasy meets reality, as it always eventually does, reality wins. Every time. So your diatribe is fine, whatever makes you happy. Take your ball and go home, no one wants to play with a crybaby. A palabras necias, oidos sordos.

nonames
10/15/2019 21:42 EST

WhoaNow ! In the words of another silenced poster: " Hear, Hear!" LOL!

srhsnh1807
10/15/2019 23:03 EST

+1 WhoaNellie, "We know-it-all amateurs on the right are reality-driven. You on the left are fantasy-driven".

That's pretty much the way it is. Progressives have this fantasy of impeaching Trump but reality keeps biting them in the buttocks. Nancy isn't holding a vote, everybody knows why. It's pretty obvious. Her fantasy is getting the @#$% slapped out of it with the reality that the public ain't buying into this farce of a process. That's the reality. Trump is getting another 4 years. In a landslide. Courtesy of the democrats. Thank you. America appreciates it.

ponymalta
10/16/2019 03:38 EST

Denise,

I agree with you that innovation and considering different options is helpful at times.

What isn't debatable is the nature of venture capital and the stock market is that those supplying money for risk capital expect a certain return compared to alternative investments.The delays in getting approvals, the risk a drug won;t pass trials and so on, and the issue of making profits during periods of patent protection are a given. As I pointed out looking at the financial statements of new biotech companies or established drug manufacturers demonstrates why high prices are needed for certain drugs- and the articles posted here show other issues such as bulk pricing negotiation are a factor in US drug prices.

I get the impression-I may be wrong- you have neither the experience or general appreciation of how money is raised or invested in this industry.

Looking at the channels of distribution I am still curious how an individual pharmacy would determine under what 'tier' a customer would fall under.

And in any case who is to determine what a 'fair price' is which you never answered. Some government bureaucrat ?

It seems from the article changes in how Medicare negotiates bulk pricing could be significant. Following models such as the NHS in some fashion could solve the issue of determining what the end user pays.

Your idea that pharmacies offer choice of individuals entering into arrangements to commit to buying X amount over following 2 or 3 years, and if worth the time and effort to administer , is quite intriguing.

In the end drug companies must generate certain returns to get sufficient capital to take risks. The wonder drugs developed in the last decades have saved countless lives.No matter what the price is , some people will always be too poor to pay- that is why a deeper structural change s necessary that any other advanced country has recognized.

Of course like may issues, maybe on tax returns there should be a line for people who wish to pay extra to subsidize lower drug prices or to help the environment would be helpful- nothing like spending your own money to back up change !

ponymalta
10/16/2019 04:13 EST

Denise since you are indicating you will leave this thread my thanks for taking the time to post your ideas. we can all learn from different ideas.Though it seems you get all wound-up so maybe better your tranquility just find a thread where everyone thinks the same with partisan closed minds. You question people's honesty, use often comments that can be taken as insulting, and consistenty seem to have a very one-sided view such as your views about Trump, about Republicans or people who watch FOX news- conceiving in your mind "straw men".

I am very partial to ideas such as a universal basic income ( like Friedman's negative income tax concept) and having a health care system more akin to those in Europe or the UK. I know of several posters on this thread and site who would strongly disagree with me but have never resorted to questioning my honestly or that of others, or used somewhat insulting language or assertions. Maybe instead of Trump-like tactics a bit of calm and decorum would be in order. My impression is that you are rather fanatic as equally some on the right are , with partisanship to the degree hard to have civil debate.

I do appreciate you posted several articles which I haven't had time to look up,as the subject is interesting. Considering all the problems in the USA it is great you have concerns for improvement in the lives of the poor and working poor which I share- just in most cases we would just propose different solutions.

.How on earth do you know what people watch. I glance the the news in morning, FOX, RT, MSNBC, BBC so I get different views though I admit I tend to avoid CNN.

Maybe Colombia not the right place for you to consider in the future, as people here generally laid back trying to enjoy life. both Colombians and Expats.I doub't anyone here wakes up worrying about climate change.People are not so wound up. And most people posting on this Forum very helpful in giving tips and experiences, even after 15 years
experience with Colombia I learn from a lot of posts.

But words on the internet can sometimes not come across as intended, and in the 21st century seems we have a culture that people get very easily offended by different views- so if I have posted anything in response that hurt your feelings or in any way you took as an insult you have my apology.

spikerivet
10/16/2019 10:46 EST

Hmm, I was hoping to not follow 4 long posts from Pony, with my long post, but...oh well

As far as economic arguments as to the condition of the U.S. economy, there is a lot of armchair pundits that seem to be piecing together headline economic data in some cases, rather superficially.
Most people say the same supportive arguments about the economy.

The stock market is going to new highs.
fact: the S&P has gone up 2% since Jan 2018. That's one year and 9 months, the U.S. market has been trading in a range. Right now it's on the high end of the range.

Trump has been great for jobs. The unemployment rate is the best it's been in 50 years. That's true.

Trump entered office on January 20, 2017, and starting with February 2017 he has been President for 29 months. Total job growth during that time has been 5.613 million or 194,000 per month with those results being helped by the tax cut.
Working back from January 2017, Obama’s last month in office, there had been 6.423 million jobs added or 221,000 per month. The difference for the 29 months is 810,000 more jobs or 27,000 more per month than Trump.
This was written in July 2019 in Forbes.
And Trump's not going to overtake Obama any time soon because job growth is slowing.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2019/07/05/trump-is-falling-almost-1-million-jobs-short-vs-obama/#2058c9d18caa

The truth is we've had economic expansion after tax cuts and after tax increases. The economy is like a locomotive. A President doesn't miraculously appear and transform the economy. Trump was claiming he did after 3 months and citing nothing other than the stock market increase. As so often Trump encourages a lot of fallacious thinking, that is not fact based.

A President can give an economy a sugar rush of increased spending. as Trump has, with increased 1)defense spending, for all the Trump banter about being the peace candidate, he spends money on the military like a neocon, as Trump brags, the largest military budget ever. And 2) lowering taxes freeing up capital to invest in the economy, but the effects of that tend to tail off. A recession will eventually come, because no president, even Trump can repeal the business cycle.

No President can make true structural changes to an economy that can be seen until he's 2 years into office. Unless emergency action is taken which in this case the Trump presidency hasn't undertaken.

At the very first, when it became evident that Trump was tying his administration's fortunes to the rising stock market. People in the U.S markets referred to it as the "Trump put". They had supreme confidence that if the market would start going down, the President would rescue it with some pronouncement. Trump actually successfully did this on a number of occasions making tweets that would turn the markets around from a tailspin and cause it to rally several hundred points. But as so often, Trump wasn't too ingenious or subtle about it, and the markets finally saw that Trump didn't really have a comprehensive handle on what was going on, and wasn't using any privileged information, and they were being manipulated on just B.S. so Trump's tweets are now greeted with more skepticism. You can't judge the economy based on what Trump says. He has, shall we say, a conflict of interest.

Trump had the trust of the markets as no President in our lifetime. He's spoiled it with his going after the Chinese trade tariff issue. International investors like free markets, and to be able to invest anywhere they please. But I think this is the most major issue that Trump has gotten right. I think the Chinese are a serious economic threat, and particularly if you've had children. Unfortunately, Trump has bungled this miserably. You don't publicly brag about humiliating China or that you're decimating their economy. They're too old a culture to submit to that.

He should have first aligned with the European market, because they can't stand the Chinese either. If there was some rethinking of tariffs with Europe, he should have first handled it in a low key manner and then emphasize a mobilization against a common enemy. Getting an agreement from Nato to pay their fair share for defense is also a good idea. I have no doubt he could have gotten that in a much more low key manner with the promise of going after a strongly acknowledged enemy.
People can have an intelligent debate about the importance of Nato, but you play politics, you don't mouth off that Nato isn't worth a sh-t. You push that it is worth it, all the more reason for member nations to pay their fair share. But his adversarial ideas about Nato, just compounded the problem, and lead away from his much more important ultimate goal for what I suspect is his conflict of financial interests in the one sh-thole country he seems to like. We'll leave it at that. But that problem has sabotaged any real meaningful Chinese tariff agreement with any teeth in it.

We're in the longest peace time expansion in the nation's history, 124 months, that started not 2 months into Obama's term in March 2009. so we have 8 years of Obama during this period and up to now 2 years and 9 months of Trump. What can skew this focus a little, and I would think is prevalent on ex pat forums like these, with in this case Latin American spouses and children, is people can see that everywhere else in the world the economies are very tight,even struggling, and the U.S. is, economically an oasis, and not slowing as fast.

But the truth is, historically the economy has actually done better under Democrat Presidents than Republican Presidents which should tell you about how much control a President really does have over the economy.

ponymalta
10/16/2019 11:09 EST

spikerivet

thanks for your post. a question- i dot know in the end whether trump's trade negotiating strategy will work, but isnt it a positive that he is attempting to right the situation after years of wishy-washy washinton approaches to trade negotiations ?

Blenheim
10/16/2019 11:13 EST

Interesting about healthcare for all.
For with great healthcare in the U.K. Canada, France etc (no waiting times for an operation,no waiting lines to see a doctor, etc etc. In the U.K a few years ago i had a tooth issue and required a root canal,, No problem, just get on the scheduled waiting list and return in 2 months for the procedure--or for 200 cash today just return after 5 P.M.

Right, no honest doctor in any country would do this despicable sort of act would they-- --

Anyone go to a typical emergency room--1/2 of the people are -30 or more pounds overweight. Many health issues are self inflicted.
What about personal responsibility in life..

Where does the money come from--of course gut the budget for the military and move those monies over to free healthcare, Good idea, then ban the cost of the U.N. to the U.S, then ban the Nato cost to the U.S. and let the Brits, French Germans etc. defend themselves, However their healthcare services will then have to be reduced due to increasing their own military spending,

Steve Jobs died though a billionaire. He had every right to live with unlimited money and healthcare--life does not work this way---the young think they are immortal,---real life dictates otherwise--a few on this
board will never see 50-60-70-etc.

A 2 year old receiving a transplant for 300,00 is great--but what about the 5 other children who die from the same or lesser health issues--save 1 and lose 5, or save 5 and lose one--
Who decides--after this, then who decides we all have a right after free health, then education, free universal income, a home, food, a Mercedes, etc etc

Pedroal
10/16/2019 11:23 EST

Great post, Spike. If there were more folks like you on the site..... Denise and I might stick around. Oh, well.

There is an interesting article from 3/8/2019 in the Washington Post
'Russian trolls can be surprisingly subtle and often fun to read' Just for general interest.

And there are many sources of information on the web helping us understand when someone is lying. Liehacker.com - 'Catch a lie in an email or text' is one of them. Excessive detail is always a clue.

The U.S. political right is becoming very adept at making and perpetrating lies, not just political trolls. Lindsay Graham wants to drag Hunter Biden before Congress, but I guess Rudi is a great patriot. The difference is that foreign trolls want to sow division, homegrown trolls are more willing to push an agenda at any cost.

I have to wonder why anyone in Colombia wants to spend countless hours on this and other sites in an unpaid mission to perpetrate an endless paean of Fox News talking points and denigrate any ideas coming from those of different political persuasion while embracing real idiocy put up on this thread and others from a few really crazy right wingers.

Guess we'll never really know.

Pedroal
10/16/2019 11:37 EST

I would also encourage those of us who actually read and are interested in the truth and who are continually appalled by posts on this site and others spewing lies, distortion, misinformation, and irrelevancies to check out the Dunning-Krueger effect. It will also help us hold our own tongues when we get carried away trying to make a point about a subject we know little about.

WhoaNellie
10/16/2019 11:54 EST

Oh now I understand - one side wants to be able to say anything they want without being challenged.

They can dish it out, but not take it.

And they always accuse you, of what they themselves are doing.

That's really what it amounts to.

Pedroal
10/16/2019 11:58 EST

Parting shot -

What's the matter with you guys? Can't you take a little criticism from a woman with at least some small degree of class?

Andresen
10/16/2019 12:24 EST

"Steve Jobs died though a billionaire" Steve Jobs died because he didn't believe in traditional medicine. You saw the outcome of his using alternative medicine, he died.

WhoaNellie
10/16/2019 13:39 EST

"Parting shot -

What's the matter with you guys? Can't you take a little criticism from a woman with at least some small degree of class?"

You are why Colombian women are so appreciated and valued...

srhsnh1807
10/16/2019 14:11 EST

Hey Pedroal, I fixed this for you: "The U.S. political left is becoming very adept at making and perpetrating lies, not just political trolls. Adam Schiff wants to drag Rudy before Congress, but I guess Hunter is a great patriot."

If this were Trumps son on the board of a Ukrainian gas company making 50 grand a month, your head would be exploding. At best you're intellectually dishonest and at worst, willfully ignorant.

ponymalta
10/16/2019 14:19 EST

Pedroal,

If I recall you of Denise portrayed you were thinking of moving outside the US, and didnt like what you read on some Mexican Expat site or thread. Now you are on this thread getting all worked up and insulting people for having diferent opinions. And any internet thread is not comprised of specialists in every field,hopefully people do some research but often people just give their opinions.

In any case better strike Colombia, or probably most of Latin America off your list except in a very liberal Gringo enclave. If you act like this in Colombia you won't get very far making friends with most Gringos or Colombians in particular. I know a few extremely left-wing students pro-FARC, none of them has got so worked up or insulting when debating politics.

The Sky isnt falling in Colombia , nice weather friendly people green mountains and not expensive.

ponymalta
10/16/2019 14:32 EST

srhsnh1807

interesting question - why is it leftists and of course extreme rightists get so worked up about politics so they become insulting, assume one side 100% right in all instances,and simply uncivil and impolite ? is it how they re brought up, have empty unfulfilling lives, depressed ?

i dont know the answer but sad for america

nonames
10/16/2019 15:11 EST

If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen,eh? Well, they're fleeing left & right here. I love my life in Colombia (So, true Pony) but have never been exposed to the political hashing (We don't watch TV) like this thread has provided. What an eye opener! Thanks for all the info/education. I'm going back next year just to cast my vote with joy!
By the way , do any of you vote in the US national elections from here? Does the embassy provide that service? Appreciate any helpful input, thanks!

Pedroal
10/16/2019 22:51 EST

Pony Malta, I've been looking at a few of your responses to Denise' (and others') posts. The ones she wrote on drug pricing were carefully thought out. I just can't figure out if you really are that dim - I hope not - or just don't care and say things to piss people off. Either way she doesn't need this particular site. But that decision was hers.

ponymalta
10/17/2019 03:45 EST

Pedroal

I simply responded that first to the use of the term "profiteering' and demonstrated that the numbers don't support that pejorative term. Second, that the nature of the industry, as other links other posters supported as well, was hat drug companies needed to make high profits on those drugs that did get approval and during the period of patent protection to make up for huge investments in R & D- and that is what venture capitalists and the market looking for. Third I raised the issue of whether she had any practical experience in the industry itself. Four, that I mentioned the article that was posted indicated a huge part of the issue of Medicare etc not better negotiating or negotiating at all on bulk pricing. Five, that I shared completely with Denise the ultimate objective that no one is denied life-saving drugs and in my opinion that a much easier solution can be found in looking at how other advanced countries deal much better than the USA. Six, I asked the admittedly simplistic question of how one could expect the entity selling to the end user to determine what their the end user belonged to.To top it off I agreed with Denise sometimes innovation can find solutions not readily apparent and indicated I would look into the articles she cited which apparently she feels would support he concepts she presented.

I would be interested if anyone on this thread or elsewhere would find my responses personally insulting or uncivil, or representing a 'dim' approach. I have no problem finding out I am incorrect about something for how else does one learn except by considering different points of view- in particular someone with real-world experience. For example I will take a guess Denise probably has ten times more experience I have with the inner workings of academic administration or the inside of some areas of government, and she has a PhD which I respect as it is a lot of hard work to get. Though extreme bias and indications of possibly having Trump Derangement Syndrome may effect her opinions just as much a those who may have Trump Adoration Syndrome,

In any case why not take your insults somewhere else ? You hardly seem open to considering different points of view or conducting polite debate, discourse, or simple politeness. I am sure you can find some website where everyone shares the same views and using Trump-like language in name-calling.

I thought your or her intent looking for a different country to live in ? My two cents forget Colombia- by some rankings it is considered one of happiest places to live, you two would just get too worked up to enjoy as it is a laid-back place. People on this site give some great information on living here regardless of their political views..

mattinnorfolk
10/17/2019 07:21 EST

Gallop Article from a poll Oct 27-29 2016, where they also had Clinton up by 10 %. : A new Gallup survey released on Tuesday found that 32 percent of respondents think that Trump possesses the personality and leadership qualities necessary for someone to be president, compared to 51 percent for Clinton. "Voters rate Trump worse than any other presidential candidate in Gallup's records on having the personality and leadership qualities a president should have," said Gallup. The organization first polled on this question in the 2000 presidential election between Al Gore and George W. Bush, who both got significantly better numbers—59 percent and 57 percent, respectively—than Trump.

At the same time here is another post at same time,
Here is at the Moody's Analytics model. The model, which has correctly predicted the winner of every presidential race since 1980, predicts that Clinton will win next week. More specifically, the model forecasts that she'll take 332 electoral votes, while Trump will receive 206. Swing states Ohio, Pennsylvania, Colorado and Florida are all set for Democratic victories, according to the model, which is based on three economic factors and three political factors. Moodys Analytics Has Clinton winning easily a week before the election.

Garbage in= Garbage out!!! Try being a suburban woman, Jewish, Latin, AA, or a millennial and a person or pollster ask you if you support Trump. I would bet 90% will say no, but do you really believe 90% will do that in the privacy of a polling booth? If you do believe that, I have some Lottery tickets to sell you and you are guaranteed to win!

I have 4 children 24 to 39, and this is the first good economy where they have seen real raises and someone actively competing to get them to come work there. They previously had a very shaded view of Capitalism because they all four went to US colleges, and they teach from a very liberal perspective. Many Professors have spent most of their adult life getting a check from the taxpayers and believe government checks are inherently superior to private payrolls.

One other note is since the election the S+P is up about 36% and if you add dividends about 40%. The S+P averages about 10% a year, and that is a 30% improvement over the average. This corrects the selective and incomplete post earlier about the market being up 2% since Jan 1, 2018, which technically was right although he did not include dividends. Don't you think it is more fair to judge the market since the election if you are intellectually honest? We have also been in a trade war since early 2018, and we can agree or disagree on it... Sorry about the length.

srhsnh1807
10/17/2019 09:21 EST

Ponymalta....

They don't want conversation. Just look on youtube and the amount of videos where liberal activist shutdown conversations on college campuses. Blasting horns, shouting down speakers, threatening violence, cancelling invitations because they don't agree.. etc. What happened to the free exchange of ideas on campuses? It's dead, because the left doesn't want it. They're angry and mad because they cannot tolerate dissent. Remind you of anything......?

Watch all the vidoes of antifa throwing liquids in conservative faces without consequence. I could go on... but the simple fact is, these people don't want a conversation. They want to destroy and silence.

WhoaNellie
10/17/2019 11:10 EST

Polls are pretty much useless - and they have been ever since it's been clear that they are more about manipulating and shaping opinion that they are about discovering it.

They have been spectacularly wrong, especially about the 2016 election.

The polls now reveal much more about the slant of the poll-taking organization, than they do about those being polled. I expect the onslaught of misinformation and disinformation to continue and increase - the left will double-down on lying, because the truth is not in them, the truth scares them.

The only poll that really matters is the one that will take place on November 3, 2020.

cinparadise
10/17/2019 11:27 EST

New York Times October 2016:

Hillary has a 85% chance of winning the presidency.

MSNBC October 2016:

Hillary has a 99% chance of winning the presidency.

Hillary Clinton October 2019:

"Obviously, I can beat him (Trump) again"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v41w8GZTHTQ

Pedroal
10/17/2019 11:40 EST

"Methinks he doth protest too much." Shakespeare still gets right to the point.

nonames
10/17/2019 12:06 EST

Yep, polls and stats. I know of a company that hired a polling/stat firm and the first thing they asked was: "What's the message?" ,"We can support it."

ponymalta
10/17/2019 14:19 EST

Pedroal

I thought you were both leaving this thread ?

By all means explain to us why being impolite and insulting is beneficial to the discussion ? Or is somehow a new paradigm that being uncivil and Trump-like something you advocate ?

ponymalta
10/17/2019 14:19 EST

Pedroal

I thought you were both leaving this thread ?

By all means explain to us why being impolite and insulting is beneficial to the discussion ? Or is somehow a new paradigm that being uncivil and Trump-like something you advocate ?

ponymalta
10/17/2019 14:37 EST

srhsnh1807

I have the same impression that the left and liberals on college campuses and elsewhere seem to have a tendency to be against free speech that doesn't match their ideology, whether using political correctness or as you indicate Antifa and Antifa-like tactics. Even Bill Maher a few times recently has commented on this excessive type of behavior. There are just too may examples of such behavior especially on college campuses to ignore.

However I am wondering what everyone's opinion is what has caused this, which has been growing for years especially the extreme fanaticism which also can be applied to the right. Just look for example the number of times the Republicans voted resolutions against Obamacare- wasting taxpayer money and time- even knowing they were not able to cancel it. ( And even worse with nothing to replace it ensure America like any advanced country provides reasonable access to health care for all.)

How did the country become so divided to this extreme the last 20 years ?

WhoaNellie
10/17/2019 17:20 EST

'"Methinks he doth protest too much." Shakespeare still gets right to the point.'

Except that's NOT what Shakespeare wrote.

It's actually

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Spoken by Queen Gertrude, Hamlet Act 3, Scene 2.

Another phrase commonly gotten wrong from Shakespeare is "gild the lily".

It's actually from

“To gild refined gold, to paint the lily, to throw a perfume on the violet, to smooth the ice, or add another hue unto the rainbow, or with taper-light to seek the beauteous eye of heaven to garnish, is wasteful and ridiculous excess.”

From The Life and Death of King John.

I just like to get things right, and not be a party to spreading false information...

El que calla, otorga.

cinparadise
10/18/2019 13:26 EST

here we go again!!!!!!!

*

Hillary Clinton Appears to Claim Russians ‘Grooming’ Tulsi Gabbard to Run as Third-Party Candidate

Matt Wilstein

Hillary Clinton appeared to claim in a podcast interview this week that Russians will support Democratic Rep. Tulsi Gabbard as a third-party presidential candidate—and called Jill Stein “a Russian asset.”

Clinton made the remark on Campaign HQ with David Plouffe. “I’m not making any predictions, but I think they’ve got their eye on someone who’s currently in the Democratic primary and are grooming her to be the third-party candidate. She’s the favorite of the Russians,” said Clinton, apparently referring to Rep. Gabbard, who’s been accused of receiving support from Russian bots and the Russian news media. “They have a bunch of sites and bots and other ways of supporting her so far.” She added: “That’s assuming Jill Stein will give it up, which she might not because she’s also a Russian asset. Yeah, she’s a Russian asset—I mean, totally. They know they can’t win without a third-party candidate. So I don’t know who it’s going to be, but I will guarantee you they will have a vigorous third-party challenge in the key states that they most needed.”

Clinton spox Nick Merrill later clarified, when asked if Clinton was referencing Gabbard: “If the nesting doll fits.”

In August, Gabbard overtly pledged on CNN that she would not run as a third-party candidate if she does not win the Democratic nomination. During the podcast, Clinton also repeatedly barbed at President Trump, calling him “Vladimir Putin’s dream.” Gabbard’s campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/hillary-clinton-appears-to-claim-russians-grooming-tulsi-gabbard-to-run-as-third-party-candidate

*

cinparadise
10/20/2019 07:19 EST

Poor Bernie Sanders.....

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to endorse Bernie Sanders for president

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/15/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-bernie-sanders-endorsement

awalles
11/16/2019 12:45 EST

Why Trump should not be re-elected

There are many good Republicans, Democrats, conservative, liberal and independents who would make good presidents. Trump is not one of them. Here are 5 reasons why I think Trump should be replaced.

Trump is 2 face. That’s not an insult, that’s a fact.
“If Obama releases his birth certificate, I’ll release my taxes.” 2015.
“I didn’t try to fire Comey.” The Presidential lawyer says he did. As did Trump, himself.

It is extraordinarily difficult to know what a country will do when its chief spokesman cannot tell the same story twice. Or, his story needs to be “explained” or “Interpreted” by his staff. If the President’s word cannot be taken at face value, how are our allies, and our enemies, supposed to determine what our country is going to do?

Trump has a history of accepting our enemy’s word instead of our own intelligence
RE: Interference in the 2016 elections. He said he believed Putin over 17 different US and allied intelligence reports that say Russia did interfere with his election.
He met with Putin and Kim alone; confiscated our interpreter’s notes; and did not brief his cabinet on what happened during those meetings.

How are our Cabinet members, the State Department, Congress, the Treasury, intelligence units, the military supposed to know what to do, what to look into or how prepare for if this information is not shared in detail?

Taxes—Did Trump/does he get money from Russia, Saudi Arabia, N. Korea? Did he have business dealings before he was a candidate; during the time he was a candidate; or now that he is president? If he did/does, would that explain the reason he wanted sanctions eased? If he did/does, did the amount he received/receives increase with his candidacy or presidency? Would that explain why he didn’t complain about a Saudi sanctioned murder? That’s one of the big reasons presidential candidates release their taxes.

Clean the swamp. There are 27, by my count. Investigations that have been, are, or are pending investigation into the Trump White House. 27. In 3 years. Many involved using government money for personal reasons, or to make their offices look pretty. 2 involved people who were selected to work with Trump who were agents of foreign governments. When Trump promised to bring the best people into government, he lied. He fired people who would not do what he told them because they thought it was illegal or unethical. Those around him refused to answer questions or came up with “alternative facts” to try to explain the inexplainable.

I submit that the swamp is still muddy.

Lies

Trump has been fact checked during the last three years, and the total number of lies (call them mistakes, falsehood, or miss-statements if you wish) has totaled over 10,000. What would you do to your children if they lied 10,000 times in 3 years? I doubt you would elect them president.

Well, there you have my 5 reasons why Trump should not be re-elected. To be sure, I’m am not saying a Republican should not be elected. There were many Republicans running who I would have easily voted for. I do believe Hilary had some good policy points and she had a lot of baggage. So, my vote was kind of for her and against Trump. Not against the Republican candidate.

There is so much crap in Washington, D.C. that we could spread it on the streets and plant enough food to feed the world.

Let’s try to change that. Whether you vote Republican, Democratic, Independent, Green Party or even Communist, make sure you vote for good decent policies. Make sure you vote for a person who speaks the truth sincerely (and, yes, I understand that’s why many of you voted for Trump). Vote to make America the greatest country on earth. A country that our allies will be proud to stand with, and our enemies will be very cautious dealing with.

I tell you from my heart, Trump is not this person. If you are Republican, contact your party. There are a great many candidates out there who can do the job well. And, I’ll bet they won’t tell 10,000 lies every 3 years; or have private meetings with our enemies and not share the content.

Vote for a president that will serve our country, not for one who will serve his/her own interests. You are not electing Trump. You are electing a President of the United States. Trump is not, and never will be the answer. The President will be the answer.

Please, whether you are Democrat, Republican…… Please, think about what I have said. Think before you vote.

And for God’s sake vote. This is your country. Do not sit back and complain. Stand up, get out of the house and go vote. Please.

Pedroal
11/16/2019 13:08 EST

I definitely agree! And at this point most probably do.

But you most likely won't find them on this site. Hope I'm wrong.

ponymalta
11/16/2019 16:57 EST

awalles

the problem is find it extremely challenging to think of a single Democrat candidate who wouldn't be an economic disaster except for Biden which is just more of the same, and Mayor Pete who is extremely intelligent but needs a hell of a lot more experience than just running a run-down city. On the other side the Republican Senators don't strike me as intellectual giants or having any bold policy proposals, and completely oblivious to the health care issues, so not much to choose from unfortunately !.

While at times I like Sanders on the left or Rand Paul on the right neither could I imagine as an effective President or Andrew Yang. McConnel ,Pelosi, Schumer, Graham, all walking examples of why term limits would be a positive for the country !

I admit it is so very tiresome the constant anti-Trump refrain which is extremely suspect as no credit is given for the positives- I know too many people who have found jobs or whose salaries have gone up to completely dismiss his policies, and business often free from inane regulations.. We all know Trump's faults already , the guy is completely disreputable in more ways that one can count. But unless the Democrats can actually connect with the working class in many states Trump could win again.

But before we had the constant anti Obama refrain, and considering his almost total lack of experience at running anything he stepped up to the plate after inheriting a disaster and things didnt collapse as they could have,

The extreme partisanship on both sides just creating at log jam.

Anyway my two cents but I don't see a single candidate on ether side whose track record or policies overall would make them a superlative candidate. Biden should be put out to pasture, and Trump maybe needs a course on manners and to actually read a few books, What choices ! !
,


.

Pedroal
11/16/2019 17:58 EST

https://progressive.org/dispatches/devin-nunes-imagined-worlds-fiore-191115/

CAtoMDE
11/16/2019 18:06 EST

You all have your stories and perspective - know that I am in my early 60's and have NEVER VOTED and more so have never even registered to vote in my life (for reasons I won't go into any details here).

So I am not a demo, repub, liberal, right/left, blah blah blah, I stand for a theocracy so guess that I can be considered a theocrat, well when there is a party for this group you got my vote.

Now with the above being said, the BS that is going on motivates me to FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE register to vote and vote for Trump if nothing more than to tell the A-holes in DC to shut the f*ck up and run the country like these A-holes are supposed to do, as we all see clearly through this.

The system is a joke, I and others are tired of the relentless BS that is spewed out constantly,

I don't even like Trump, yes he is a conceited narrow minded jerk but myself and millions of others will make our voices heard next November.

Don't want to argue, nor bickering, so I wont even read any replies and/or posts in this thread so don't waste your time. Just know that this guy is fed up with the whole bunch.

Blenheim
11/16/2019 20:07 EST

Colombia is a convenient place to live if one has enough money outside Colombia from retirement funds supporting one in Colombia--or one working under the radar-or internet--

Living in Colombia on 1,000 dollars a month is not exactly living unless in the middle of nowhere--9 years ago 1,000 dollars a month was worth 60% in buying power (1745) versus today at (3400)--Good luck living in paradise if the dollar goes down again-

Unless one works for a multinational company a Colombian will always be hired first by a Colombian company---

One should take note of the Colombian university students who cannot find work---

University students who find work according to their degree typically are from upper Estrata families with connections

Colombia is a historically very class structured society of 4 classes--and classes do not socially mix ---

Colombia is a 3rd world country---
Welcome to paradise--17 bank holidays----3 weeks off for Christmas---1 week off for Easter--
credit cards at 23%---

The 2 most important words in Spanish "Mas Tarde"

The new Bogota mayor--first time a woman and a socialist--priority is to right the injustices against the poor people--

Wonder if Lopez has visited Caracas in the past 3 years---

Pedroal
11/16/2019 20:36 EST

So the exchange rate is pretty close to a decade high. That is good if your money comes from the U.S. And it is good for the Colombia economy. If there are 100,000 expats and tourists in Colombia (I have no idea how many there are but there are a million or more in Mexico) spending $1000/month each that is $100,000,000 a month for the Colombian economy.

Don't get why this is on the politics side. Sure, things could go wrong in so many ways. Bolivia and Venezuela are examples.

Life is short.

augieman
11/17/2019 09:34 EST

Blenheim
Your comment asking where is personal responsibility with regard to health care.
How true !! Sitting at the American Legion bar in Vienna va (deep south)
I casually mentioned the heart surgeon who refused to operate a second time on any patient who remained obese, smoke and drank alcohol,all without the benefit of much exercise.
Since I thought the surgeon was on the right track to deal with a very serious health issue--obesity, and since folks will not change their bad but enjoyable habits unless Forced to do so,I was shocked at the response of outrage directed at the surgeon.
Everything from who does he think he is to license revocation.
Of course life saving operations should not be apportioned , but should go to the wealthy/insured without quibble.
Sitting for lunch at a golf club in La Quinta ,Ca across from a fellow retiree who was downing martinis, slathering white buns with butter, ordered a hearty and heavy meat dish
He retrieves a plastic pill box and proceeds to down at least 5 meds -heart, cholesterol,etcetc
I gentle opined that it must be bothersome to take so many meds. thinking it might trigger some insight on his part about why he 'needed' all these meds.
His reply was not so. His insurance covered 100% of his meds. Clueless and personally irresponsible

PS is not it time to open US Politics Part Two. This thread is veerrry long!

WhoaNellie
11/17/2019 12:45 EST

"Vienna va (deep south)"...

LOL maybe before and during the Civil War it was the "deep south"...but since the 1960s at least, Vienna has been a suburb of the DC area, with lots and lots of government employees and even more now than ever before...Northern Virginia has turned almost completely liberal and for a long time has had no connection to the "deep south", but more to the "deep state"...

Wildstubby
11/17/2019 13:20 EST

Whoa! You beat me to the punch on that one. If you want to go 'deep south' in VA, try anywhere south and west of Pulaski Co. like Pilot, Wytheville or Galax.

Blenheim
11/17/2019 19:32 EST

If these advanced first world free healthcare countries are so great then why are Americans going instead to Colombia where healthcare is not free ---

More extreme fanaticism in the USA---
What has caused this ??--

The answer is obvious (defined by one word) if one studies history one should understand the reason why 3rd world countries today are still 3rd world in the America's and elsewhere-- (the word is not Colonialism)

nonames
11/17/2019 19:38 EST

Is it colloquial?

augieman
11/18/2019 09:31 EST

Deep south
I thought my post about Vienna would be seen as state of mind, not geography.
You know, the kind of place where house wife refuses to allow a pest control " My husband would be furious"
I bought a house there and actually LIVED there (how about you???)
from 2003-2009
and the power structure is still decidedly deep south in attitude,although that is slipping rapidly as a result of demographics,as is adjoining Loudon county.
Racism is very much alive and well in ole Virginny, including Vienna!

augieman
11/18/2019 09:35 EST

Whoa nelly

When did you last live in Vienna, or
Virginia, for that matter????

augieman
11/18/2019 09:37 EST

.....refuses to allow a black man into her house to do extermination of roaches.....because her husband would be furious ...

Wildstubby
11/18/2019 10:15 EST

Augieman, I have never lived in Vienna, VA, however, I have many friends that live in neighboring Sterling, Reston, Tysons Corner, Woodbridge and Vienna. I make several trips there a year and the make-up of people there is extremely diverse! One has to look no further than the last election as to the 'color make-up', (meaning red vs. blue) to determine the progressiveness from Richmond northward. I don't disbelieve your account in any shape or form. No doubt there are hold-outs from those days when it was a purely white suburb of Washington, D. C. Me on the other hand spent a good amount of time living in and around the Tidewater-Williamsburg area, (stationed there/worked there), and lived in the Lynchburg/Madison Heights area in the south-center of the state. Where you would go into a garage to have your car serviced and see their calendar prominently displayed, in particular ~January 20 labeled not as Martin Luther King's Birthday, but labeled, (and celebrated as), the birthday of Gen. Robert E. Lee and Gen. Stonewall Jackson! That is when you know you are getting closer to deep south!

WhoaNellie
11/18/2019 10:42 EST

Oh, you lived there 2003-2009? Wow!

I first lived in the Northern Virginia area for 1 year in the 1950s and then 1 year there in the early 1960s - Falls Church and Annandale. Then I lived in the Northern Virginia area, and around Annapolis MD and the DC area, from the late 1960s through the 70s and the 80s and most of the 90s, with a several year stint in Charlottesville in the late 1980s, leaving Northern Virginia in 1996 for Colorado...about 9 years total in MD and 20 or so in the Northern Virginia area. I have cousins who lived in Vienna that I visited often. I still go back to the Northern Virginia area to visit a sister, a brother and my Dad who still live there.

So I've seen many changes in those areas over the years - and overall they've not been for the better.

But compared to the real "deep South" - there was in those many years I lived there, and now, very little race discrimination compared to places I've lived and visited in Georgia, Mississippi and Alabama.

nonames
11/18/2019 14:46 EST

Yep, I've lived in VA since 86 and race issues, on both sides, continue to fester. It's mainly been passed down through families but other factors also seem to play a larger role these days.
Based on my experiences; I can believe the exterminator story, unfortunately.

Pedroal
11/18/2019 16:02 EST

I like much of the South. And lived in La. for a year. But there is a lot of overt racism. People I was friendly with would still call blacks "boy" and refer to the nig...s. Not everybody for sure, lots of great folks. But it was much more overt there than in other places I've lived.

Pedroal
11/18/2019 16:08 EST

An African American professor I knew told me at one point he felt a lot more comfortable in the Deep South than in certain areas like parts of Wyoming and Montana, all white populations with white supremacist groups/militias.

What are the odds all these different posters lived in Virginia? Quite unusual.

Blenheim
11/18/2019 17:21 EST

Colombia is 5% black--they say negro in Colombia--and except for the coastal areas where most reside, upper class Spanish Colombians tolerate them--
Colombia is a very class structured society as much of the America's--
just the way it is--

Time to move to Bolivia or Venezuela for peace and brotherhood

nonames
11/18/2019 17:57 EST

Pedro:"What are the odds all these different posters lived in Virginia? Quite unusual.' Not really given that VA was mentioned. I would not have bothered to reply except for that I know VA in side and out. What's quite unusual is your habit of disparaging / denouncing the posters in general.

Pedroal
11/18/2019 21:57 EST

So sensitive.

Just curious how so many regular posters on this site managed to have lived in a state of 8 million or so. 12th I believe in U.S. by population. JSG said he lived there as well. I may be incorrect about him. If I wanted to be disparaging I would be more direct Don't take it personally.

DeniseLR
11/18/2019 22:06 EST

Nonames. - Stop picking fights with everyone. I'm sure you're pretty too.

I thought you lived in Colombia, not Virginia since "1986". Aren't you the same person who posted that you had never voted and want to live in a theocracy? It's def your style.

Is that the kind of response you were looking for. This one is actually "disparaging".

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