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Corruption en Colombia

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Paco23
  6/1/2020 10:58 EST

I did not see a forum thread on corruption specifically but thought this was interesting.

According to AP news, 14 of 32 governors in Colombia are under investigation.

https://apnews.com/a240ff413fb23220aff30c6d6e6aba4c

Never let an opportunity pass you by.

01Jun-0945hrs

SkyMan
  6/1/2020 12:53 EST

I read in El tiemapo that Cartagena has three(3) hospitals that the construction was halted(large amount of money stolen/embezzled)...and now they do not have enough ICU beds. The "Health Assistance" Funds that the Colombia National Government sent to the cities(60% of it was stolen, embezzled too.) Corruption here in Colombia...sadly big-time for the Mayors of the Cities. I guess they call it a "Retirement Fund". Stay Well. Buena Suerte !

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CAtoMDE
  6/1/2020 13:45 EST

It is everywhere in Colombia, a few years back a big corruption scandal with the mayor of Barbosa, Antioquia.

Given the opportunity 99.98% of any Colombian would attempt corruption as it is in their DNA from centuries from the time of the conquistadors wrought numerous atrocities upon them. Get real as this ain't Disneylandia.

LaPiranha
  6/1/2020 14:15 EST

Not just Colombia, whether you are Australian, North American, South American, African, European, Asian, or Eskimo, EVERYONE has their price. (Some higher than others).

JustSomeGuy
  6/1/2020 15:35 EST

Population statistics of Colombia from Wikipedia
88%. White & Mestizo
7%. Afro Colombian
4.3%. American Indian
No doubt the Conquistadors were hard on the people they found but the DNA is in large part from Europe and Africa.

I think a tilt toward corruption is mostly caused by a cultural defect and/or a defective upbringing. Also the ability to get away with it.

Blenheim
  6/1/2020 17:18 EST

The conquistadors brought a semblance of social order through religion ( 350 etc. year old churches etc. in Colombia. as in Mexico, Americas etc dealing with historically nomadic indigenous warring tribes, enslaving, killing each other, and seizing others territory long before the Spanish appeared.

One can not argue atrocities against the indigenous, mining gold, silver etc. However would one prefer living the life in the Amazonas today with for example Brazilian indigenous tribes, etc.,

No corruption there-the chiefs just have those killed off who get out of line. and women are just women and little else..

Let us live in Venezuela--no corruption there as the little people are now running the country..









.

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tubes
  6/1/2020 18:57 EST

JustSomeGuy: what on earth do population statistics, cultural defects or defective upbringing have to do with corruption?

It is endemic throughout the whole wide world!

WhoaNellie
  6/1/2020 19:17 EST

Corruption... "...endemic throughout the whole wide world"

Uh, that would be a "pandemic", then.

But it's not. There are places that are much more corrupt than others. For instance, in the USA, Chicago and Cook County ("Crook County" as it is called) is notoriously corrupt compared to almost anywhere else.

Colombia is also quite corrupt. But not everyone can play - and there ARE honest people in Colombia, but they have to live and get along with the sharks.

Although some may not want to believe it, there are many places where the honest people are in charge - and where, when corruption is discovered, it is rooted out and punished. It's NOT a way of life in many places.

JustSomeGuy
  6/1/2020 20:08 EST

Well tubes, the man said corruption was in the DNA of the Colombians since the time the Conquistadors committed atrocities on them.

The DNA that is currently in Colombia is not exclusively the DNA that suffered the atrocities, the population statistics show that. Some of it is, there is a mix of DNA from the perpetrators and the victims as well as DNA related to neither. So the implied argument that the corruption results from the suffering seems weak to me.

The comment that a defective culture and defective parenting causes corruption seems to be self explanatory. Do you believe that corruption is bad? Do you think good parents will instill the values of corruption in their children? Do good cultures promote corruption?

Yes there is corruption in every part of the world. This could be because there are bad parents all over the world and they fail to raise their children well.

Those questions above are not rhetorical, I’m really curious to know what you think.

Paco23
  6/1/2020 21:27 EST

@tubes I agree there is corruption all over the world but you must have traveled enough to realize some parts of the world experience corruption at a higher level than other parts.

LaPiranha
  6/1/2020 23:33 EST

I'm not so sure about the conquistadores bringing in social order through religion, Blen, although it does have a nice ring to it, and makes it sound like they did a good job.

But the real reason they conquered South America, was of course, for the gold, silver, diamonds, emeralds, and other gems and minerals which they looted and shipped back to Spain, Portugal, Holland, etc.

The Jesuit priests did try to bring in religion to the continent, but we mustn't give the credit to the conquistadores, for it was only greed that brought them here. And they were brutal.

But it was only the beginning. As time passed, another type of gold took over. When Benjamin Constant discovered rubber on the banks of the big river, (Actually the village on that very spot is named after him), it led to some of the worst atrocities the world has ever seen. The indigenous tribes all along the Amazon were enslaved, fed alcohol, and drugs, to subdue them, and were forced to work in the rubber plantations. They were treated like animals, no, worse than animals, constantly stupefied, chained, whipped, tortured, killed, and that era was heralded as "The Rubber Boom" the glorious years, A Klondyke. Rubber tyres for your car. Pneumatic tyres, the rubber guys were heroes. But the truth was, that era was actually a living hell. Whole civilisations of indigenous tribes were massacred, villages burnt, anyone who couldn't work the rubber harvest was slaughtered, the ones who could work, were worked until they dropped dead. They were so starved, that they would eat earth, until their guts couldn't take any more, and they died, or if they were not fit to work, killed.

And companies like Goodyear, and all the other tyre manufacturers got to be where they are today, and not one ounce of shame for what they did.

To learn about what it was really like changes your perspective on life. I would love to see the whole story taught in every school in the world.

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ponymalta2
  6/2/2020 02:30 EST

JustSomeGuy

If one looks at the latin countries of Europe in general they are more corrupt tha northern europe, so seems to reason part of Colombia's corruption problem is due to culture, part related to economic status.

as far as 'defective' parenting according to North American views, why would Colombian parent not transmit the cultural values of their culture and necessary to get ahead in Colombian society ?

as far as there evidently according to some on this site there are some honest Colombians I think misses the point- the Colombian view of whether honesty is a virtue simply different.

corruption just a way of life in Colombia in schools, universities, government , business wherever.

ponymalta2
  6/2/2020 07:41 EST

LaPiranha

Quite agree there were some terrible practices employed by the Conquistadores at the time. And also quite agree History should be taught including (a) there were a variety of motivations the Conquistadores ranging from greed but also to adventure and religious impulses. Those who have not read any of the source documents or familiar with the culture of the time tend to make often simplistic analysis. (b) the practices today we deplore were not uncommon for the time or anywhere else in the world (c) and a minor point that looting implies taking what was already there, which did occur, but the bulk of gold and silver was mined by the Spanish not taken.(d) and to judge the Conquistadores and subsequent history of the Latin American countries compared to what existed before Is not all black and white.

Plus the practical effect of the “good vs evil” approach to History or current events ,it breeds excuses for 21st century poverty in the Third World for corrupt leadership.
There is also a sort of perverse reverse racism in such emphasis on the perceived sins of the West. If a Western country did something in the past it was deplorable because they should have known better, but if a Third World group (for example the Aztecs) did worse to those they subjugated, the implication is they should not held to the same 21st century standards.

The endemic pervasive corruption of Colombia at all levels is a fundamental part of Colombian culture combined with a wide reputation for dishonesty. Yet it is their culture and if overall the people are content and it works for them, no reason for the to adopt North American of North European standards, I am not sure one could unequivocally, or if at all, state Americans are a happier people.

Elexpatriado
  6/2/2020 10:15 EST

LaPirana

Thats what a Russian once told me

Myself, I dont have a price..I am comfortable where I am..would never accept a bribe.

However, I am not above greasing someones palms, directly or indirectly.. if I am in a desperate situation..not for personal financial gain

Once I had to pay my way out of Kazakhstan to leave because of an error made on my Visa by the company I was working for. It cost me a measily $20. I didnt have time before the flight to argue with the immigration guy. Luckily there was a Russian translator behind me.

Unfortunately, thats how things work sometimes

Elexpatriado
  6/2/2020 10:22 EST

The part that get me is all these doom and gloomers, like the Climate Change fanatics, who say we live in the worst time in history.

What BS garbage. The last 70 years has been the best time for humanity in history.

And a lot of the prospeperity , longevity and happiness it is due to fossil fuels and hydrocarbons in general.

tubes
  6/2/2020 11:25 EST

Paco23:

I have lived and worked in dozens of countries all over the world and the only difference that I can see is that the corruption is better hidden and less evident in some places.

There are also places where the man in the street is less aware of it and even believe that their politicians are not corrupt.

SkyMan
  6/2/2020 11:44 EST

Concerning History...We must remember that "The Victors in Wars or Conflicts are the ones writing the history-books"...not the defeated. Stay Well. Buena Suerte !

Paco23
  6/2/2020 13:04 EST

@pm2 children tend to emulate what their parents do, not what they say.

In terms of the rubber industry I doubt too much has changed. You can look on YouTube for some recent documentarys on sustainability of the rubber industry and how every company claims they use sustainable practices but in reality it is a much different story.

Caleña
  6/2/2020 13:17 EST

La Piranha, the story of rubber is fascinating and distrubing, can you recommend any references for further readung on this topic?

LaPiranha
  6/2/2020 13:49 EST

Caleña ... One of the first books that got me interested in South America, was Exploration Fawcett, written by his son from his father's manuscripts.

Col Percy Fawcett first came to Sth America to delineate the borders of the countries who were fighting over their borders. During his many expeditions, around 1920, or so, he came across many rumours and legends of lost cities, and lost civilisations. He described life in the Amazonas so vividly, that it instilled in me a desire to come and see this continent. I'm sure it will enthrall you too, like it did me. I simply couldn't put it down. Its an old book, first published in about 1925, but its available online and in digital form.

Unfortunately, he and his son disappeared on their final expedition in 1925, which was intended to lead them to one of these lost cities.

I believe that a movie was made about it recently, But I haven't seen it, and am told its not anywhere near as good as the book.

JustSomeGuy
  6/2/2020 15:33 EST

I spend a lot of time sitting with Colombians and talking. I have had several Colombians complain to me that someone they had trusted lied to them. Colombians value honesty as much as anyone. They might be a little more flexible than average when it comes to modifying reality when they speak, I couldn’t say but they definitely prefer to hear the truth.

Anyway I was just objecting to the “In their DNA” statement. Lying is selected for but that started at least hundreds of millions of years ago, had nothing to do with the Conquistadors and is likely no more prominent in Colombian genetics than anyone else’s.

ponymalta2
  6/2/2020 16:32 EST

JustSomeGuy

of course they complain about OTHER people being dishonest or corrupt.that has no bearing whether they value honesty in themselves. honesty simply isn't very prevalent in Colombia, and the can often believe their own weird version of reality

but i agree there probably isnt am honesty gene , but the original post i think just meaning corruption a fundamental Colombian value.

.

nonames
  6/2/2020 17:05 EST

I agree guy. "Modifying the truth" is learned. I, myself, waited until I was 5 to tell my first lie.

Elexpatriado
  6/2/2020 18:31 EST

Colombians love to hear the truth..if it is not coming out of thier own mouths that is...

And sometimes , when you give them the truth, they are offended, and say.."estas humillando me"

Well, not all of them actuallly

Elexpatriado
  6/2/2020 18:37 EST

Yep Pony, for Colombians, better if the other person is honest, and even better if they are naive , compasionate and altruistic.

Easier to pull a "fast one" on them..

Of course this is a generalization

Paco23
  6/2/2020 21:34 EST

This is a 28 min DW documentary some might find interesting. https://youtu.be/-fusUxEPwsw It might make you think about where rubber comes from the next time you need tires.

LaPiranha
  6/2/2020 22:58 EST

Nonames .... At 5? So you were a late starter, haha.

I think the first lie we all tell, has to be
" It wasn't me" .
Usually as soon as we learn to talk. :)

LaPiranha
  6/3/2020 00:04 EST

Nonames ... Sorry, I tried to PM you, to thank you for the recommendation for the book, but I don't think my PM sent.

I have that problem a lot, and either don't receive messages, or can't reply to them. But just wanted you to know I received it, and am grateful. Thanks.

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