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Recent hangings in Cabo

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JWinPS
12/23/2017 06:48 EST

CNN covered the case of 6 bodies hanging from bridges at the Manuel Marquez International Airport and Cabo San Lucas. It appears this is the first time such a visible gang war murder has been put on display. I'm inferring that from the report. Up to now I've heard repeatedly from many that the source of murders is relegated to within the gangs and that such tourist type areas have not been targets.

Not having moved to Mexico yet, all I can go by is this report. How do you feel about this recent news coverage. Is it really just an aberration? Or, is it a new norm starting to take place?

longtimelurker
12/23/2017 09:05 EST

Stuff like that happens all the time.

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RVGRINGO

From: Mexico
12/23/2017 11:32 EST

It is how cartels send messages to their competition.

akabo
12/23/2017 17:10 EST

It still sucks if you just bought property near those regions.

Opifex
1/6/2018 20:07 EST

This is a result of drug activity. Just like inner city Chicago or Detroit or other cities in America and abroad, if you go looking for trouble then trouble comes looking for you. As one poster said, it's how the cartel sends a message to its competition. Chicago averages a homicide a day, mostly due to drugs. Average, everyday people wouldn't even bat an eye at it.

GranJefe
1/7/2018 13:08 EST

Well said amigo. Drugs ruin every area they are introduced to.

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GigiB87
1/7/2018 14:43 EST

Except homicides in Mexico are about twice that in US in 2017 (correct me if I'm wrong) and the population is at least 100,000,000 less. And they are now, according to the press, occuring everywhere in Mexico. And the government is spending billions to suppress the press accounts of corruption (NYT), including murdering journalists. And I am sure infiltrating sites like this to try to mitigate the reaction to these events, which in the past has seriously choked off tourism and expat $$$.

LeiaRowan
1/7/2018 15:10 EST

It is not drugs that ruin anything!! It is the laws against drugs that kill people.
Many Euro countries are legalizing all drugs, and the addiction and crime rates go way down very fast!!

GranJefe
1/7/2018 15:48 EST

Drugs ruin lives, period !!!

longtimelurker
1/7/2018 16:13 EST

Drugs are a top tourist attraction. One of the top reasons tourist come to Mexico is for the availability of recreational drugs.

LeiaRowan
1/7/2018 16:31 EST

No Grandjefe, it is the "war on drugs" that kills people!!!
Come out of your fascisti bubble, stop listening to jeff sesions and do some research!

Bankdraft
1/7/2018 16:47 EST

Leia Rowan disagrees so she calls him a fascist (and misspelled it). Brilliant!

GranJefe
1/7/2018 16:49 EST

She is a "Piece of Work". Just can't find an artist to "paint" her....!!!!

LeiaRowan
1/7/2018 16:49 EST

Did not misspell,.. fascisti means more then one, and in the US right now, there are many.

Bankdraft
1/7/2018 16:54 EST

Well, you used it as an adjective... so yes, you misspelled it.

larryoinpdx
1/7/2018 17:17 EST

GranJefe - You still call yourself that? A sensitive man would be embarrassed! On the subject of drugs, you are not only wrong you are a reactionary fool, and it appears you missed your period! It is the obsession with intoxication that ruins *some* lives, not drugs, and that obsession has been part of the human condition since the beginning. There is an abundance of scholarship on this issue, which is far too complex I acknowledge to be addressed, let alone understood, by a simpleton such as yourself.

larryoinpdx
1/7/2018 17:19 EST

Leia didn't misspell anything - she used a three syllable word, which is clearly beyond your English language skills bankdraft.

larryoinpdx
1/7/2018 17:26 EST

Bankdraft, it is not spelling you are quibbling about, it is syntax! What an ignoramus you are. What she said was easily understandable - she clearly knows that the troll who calls himself GranJefe is in a bubble with more of the fascisti - are you offended because you are in there too and are far too cretinous to address yourself to the merits of the discussion without having your head handed to you?

Bankdraft
1/7/2018 17:36 EST

My point was, she disagreed with another poster so she calls him a fascist. I’ts childish. See Godwin's law.

The misspelling was incidental but since you and she have made a point of it... she should have said “fascist bubble”. Assuming fascisti is even a word, it would not be used as an adjective. Hope that helps.

larryoinpdx
1/7/2018 17:58 EST

Fascisti is an Italian word meaning "fascists." And you still have not addressed yourself to the actual discussion - you apparently simply interrupted to denigrate Leia. I noticed you posted no dissent when that imbecile called her a "Piece of Work."

GigiB87
1/7/2018 18:36 EST

The war on drugs less than effective and misguided. Some of the drugs out there, from someone who has seen up close, are horrendous. Meth has taken over from cocaine as is manufactured in Mexico, no dependency on Colombians. And the cartels' domination of sale and distribution of narcotics is terrifying. And not just a Mexican problem. There are cartel hits in US as well. Multifaceted problem, in my opinion, no easy solution. But it is sure not clear US influence over Mexican drug policy is helping. And much of billions in drug profit have to be going to Mexican government officials and police. IMO

Bankdraft
1/7/2018 18:39 EST

Do you equate referring someone as a "piece of work" (from a Shakespeare play) with calling someone a "fascist"? Or "ignoramus" as you called me? As far as the discussion, I don't normally debate with folk who use ignoramus or fascist as their opening volley.

GigiB87
1/7/2018 18:45 EST

GJefe, last time I looked, was a long time resident of Nicaragua who was telling expats not to settle there (Nicaragua) because they would find the culture and lifestyle too daunting. So not clear what he is doing on Mexico site, or at all interested, rather than trying to stir things up. Since he has mentioned in previous posts that the Mexicans "will steal you blind". But of course he has every right to display whatever degree of massive ignorance he desires. I'm the idiot responding to it. :-)

GigiB87
1/7/2018 20:37 EST

Researched US murder rate, about 5.3 per 100,000. Then checked Mexico (List25, can't verify its veracity right off) which was higher, 20th in world. What shocked me were top 5: 5. Guatemala, 4. El Salvador. 3. Belize, 2. Venezuela, 1. Honduras
Note: Brazil and Columbia both higher than Mexico. Not sure what this signifies, but it certainly surprised me if figures are accurate.

LeiaRowan
1/7/2018 20:49 EST

I cannot speak to all of those stats, but I do know Honduras and Venezuela murder rates are Directly linked to US interference with internal politics!!!

Bankdraft
1/7/2018 20:54 EST

You can look up the stats... which is more than can be said for your wild accusations.

Bankdraft
1/7/2018 20:54 EST

You can look up the stats... which is more than can be said for your wild accusations.

GigiB87
1/7/2018 21:10 EST

LeiaRowan, do not disagree with you, but would like to see a stronger link given between US interference and resulting instability and murders. Central America in some ways could almost be considered one entity. All the other countries are right there together with total population a fraction of Mexico's. Panama is pretty high on list as well. I wonder if stats for many African countries might be higher if data more complete. US data might be problematic as well in future due to budget cuts to FBI's statistical division.
Peace

larryoinpdx
1/7/2018 21:11 EST

bankdraft, I thought you deserved that little jibe for being so self-righteous and condescending about "spelling," when it wasn't spelling at all. Leia used a well-known word from a foreign language correctly, something all educated people do from time to time, n'est pas?

Second, Leia correctly identified the fascist underpinnings of GranJefe's pronouncement that "drugs ruin lives" which is not only overly simplistic but wrong. You got excited because she called him a fascist for disagreeing with him, but he did not disagree - sloganeering is not argument, and he deserved the shot - there was no "disagreement" only an edict, which he is not qualified to issue. He made one of his typical grand proclamations from on high without a brain cell working, and you launched a collateral attack that was facile and ignorant - if you want to dispute someone's use of the language, or any language, you should at least know as much about it as they do and identifying a syntax error as misspelling was just too juicy a target to pass up.

Finally, if you actually wish to dispute her point about drugs - which more often save lives than harm them (with the exception of meth and opiates), at least try to do so with some intelligence. That of course is beyond GranJefe's capacity. It is not drugs that do the harm, it is governments' insistence on viewing problems with intoxicant abuse as criminal rather than medical problems. That insistence is responsible for the creation of black markets, artificially maintaining high prices. Do you actually believe that the US Government does not profit from the drug war? Governments profit if for no other reason than they are able to use the so-called scourge of drugs to increase repression, militarize police and, in the US, gut the Fourth Amendment among other constraints on government power.

The drug war was initiated by Richard Nixon, the most disgraced President in history until just now, for the express purpose of hurting people who opposed him politically, namely people of color and the hippie protesters. The fact that the hippie protesters were right all along has never been acknowledged or admitted, although it is obvious to all right-thinking people.

But the problem with intoxicant abuse is one inherent in human nature, and it cannot and will not be solved by turning up the heat. That is another thing that is obvious to thinking people all around the world, but not to GranJefe, who I have confronted before, who never has anything intelligent to say, and - you will notice - has no excuse for acting as if he knows anything.

Bankdraft
1/8/2018 07:19 EST

Keep walking it back...

Iturbide
1/8/2018 07:48 EST

Larry writes to good facts and opinion. Agree with most if not all. Echoes with rationale of the Nixon era permeate to the present with regard to "Drug Wars".

9050054
1/8/2018 09:01 EST

I'm afraid the comments on Europe allowing all drugs to be used is total rubbish.. what a dangerous comment to makeup.
Apart from Amsterdam With marijuana, I don't know of any other drugs being acceptable anywhere in the EU. "Guns and drugs" In the USA are a ludicrous combination,

Bankdraft
1/8/2018 09:08 EST

Some folks are more interested in bashing the U.S. than they are on facts.

LeiaRowan
1/8/2018 09:21 EST

Portugal, Switzerland, Germany etc,.. drugs are considered a medical problem, not criminal,... you get your facts straight!!! England gives heroin to junkies!free!!!
Most of the EU are looking at similar laws. And no Amsterdam is not legal for MJ unless you are a resident/citizen? Not sure which now, they change alot depending on how much the US pays them
And no, not bashing USA, just pointing out what is wrong with it, hopefully the midterms will start corrections, quien sabe?

larryoinpdx
1/8/2018 10:26 EST

bankdraft, you embarrass yourself more every time you post.

GigiB87
1/8/2018 10:36 EST

More heat than light here with a couple of exceptions. Interesting NYT article today about a town (big time avocado grower) in Michoacan pulling away from both cartels and Mexican government.

larryoinpdx
1/8/2018 11:51 EST

bankdraft, you are absolutely the wrong person to talk about "facts." You don't have a fact to your name and never have!

Bankdraft
1/8/2018 11:57 EST

You embarrass yourself even when you don't post.

GigiB87
1/9/2018 11:20 EST

Wow! Disagree! I think Larry has the best posts. He can be a bit intolerant of fools, or those he considers foolish, but most of his posts are informative and intelligent.

GigiB87
1/9/2018 11:36 EST

I think part of the problem sometimes is that some of us on the site are new, others longer time reading posts and have a fuller view of some of the posters. So looking at one interchange may not give a full view of a particular "relationship". To me Granjefe, for example, has come across as a long time curmudgeon, intolerant and rude. (kind of like the coach of the NE Patriots, :-) For all I know he is a wonderful guy who loves kittens and puppy dogs. So for someone new a spat may seem outrageous, not realizing the participants have a history. Now, how is that for over thinking something. Sitting home with the flu.

Iturbide
1/9/2018 22:30 EST

Hope your flu abates Gigi; Larry and you keeps to truth in this Forum. Take care and best

longtimelurker
1/10/2018 07:06 EST

Who's truth?

longtimelurker
1/10/2018 07:06 EST

Who's truth?

larryoinpdx
1/10/2018 09:35 EST

Thanks for the compliment, Gigi - it is those who have been proven wrong time and time again and still insist their mythology is gospel that rankle me most - they are not amenable to reason and because of it deserve ridicule. IMNSHO. I am always pleased and encouraged by what you and other thinking people contribute to this forum. Much that happens in Mexico is a ripple effect of the floundering and blundering of what has become the behemoth to the north, and that is most true of the excesses generated by the black market in intoxicants coupled with the extreme poverty in which the indigenous Mexican peoples have been kept for centuries. Only when policies of both countries recognize that will there be mitigation. Again, in my not so humble opinion. Stay well, please, and don't ever lose faith.

larryoinpdx
1/10/2018 09:36 EST

Thanks for the compliment, Gigi - it is those who have been proven wrong time and time again and still insist their mythology is gospel that rankle me most - they are not amenable to reason and because of it deserve ridicule. IMNSHO. I am always pleased and encouraged by what you and other thinking people contribute to this forum. Much that happens in Mexico is a ripple effect of the floundering and blundering of what has become the behemoth to the north, and that is most true of the excesses generated by the black market in intoxicants coupled with the extreme poverty in which the indigenous Mexican peoples have been kept for centuries. Only when policies of both countries recognize that will there be mitigation. Again, in my not so humble opinion. Stay well, please, and don't ever lose faith.

Bankdraft
1/10/2018 09:42 EST

"I am always pleased and encouraged by what you and other thinking people contribute to this forum."

Translation... if you agree with me, you're enlightened. If you don't, you're a fascist, imbecile, and a mythologist.

edwater47
1/10/2018 10:00 EST

Larry,

I am amenable to reason. Please help me to understand what you would describe as floundering and blundering of the behemoth to the north that ripples into Mexico. Also, can you explain who has been keeping the indigenous Mexican people in extreme poverty?

Thanks.

longtimelurker
1/10/2018 10:01 EST

Larry, most of Mexico's ailments, like the lives of the indigenous natives, are 100% Mexican made. Like most Americans, you give the USA too much credit for Mexico's issues.

larryoinpdx
1/10/2018 10:35 EST

Oh, the poor, poor baby bankdraft - got his wittle feelings hurt. Boo hoo!

larryoinpdx
1/10/2018 10:43 EST

Lurker, I have only scratched the surface of this topic in my own learning and acculturation, and you are probably right about the origination of Mexico's problems - if I said otherwise I misspoke. You cannot deny, however, that the influence of American policy, especially its illicit drug-related policy, has worsened the problems dramatically.

I have to say, though, that I have believed NAFTA created giant problems for Mexico since its inception, however one of my neighbors - a Brit who has lived here for 25 years - begged to differ. He said that when he came to Mexico there were far fewer cars and much less evidence of indigenous prosperity. I live in Mazatlan, which is a real city, with all that implies.

LeiaRowan
1/10/2018 10:45 EST

Simple, the "behemoth to the north" interferes in the politics and laws of Mexico. The DEA practically has free reign and NAFTA is destroying the Mex economy. When the US made hemp illegal, they forced Mexico to comply by withholding medicines and other needed supplies. Sending back Mexi-Americans is causing huge problems in most small communities by not having enough work etc, encouraging pettycrime and strong resentment of Americans. Others can add to this list.

larryoinpdx
1/10/2018 12:21 EST

Ed, do you honestly think that the Mexican drug cartels have prospered and thrived by selling recreational drugs to Mexicans? Do you perhaps believe that the huge quantities of meth and opiates that either originate in Mexico or are shipped through Mexico are intended for Guatemala or someplace in Europe? Please!

As to the blundering, Nixon created the war on drugs to go after hippies and people of color - that is established - and it has warped our legal system in ways far too numerous and comprehensive to enumerate here, beginning with compliant judges presiding over the withering away of the right against unreasonable search and seizure (and search or seizure) both at the state and federal levels.

Finally, Prof. Charles Whitebread, who taught at the FBI Academy among other institutions, wrote a 200+ page symposium that was published in the fall 1970 - 1970 Ed - University of Virginia Law Review. It was entitled "The Forbidden Fruit and the Tree of Knowledge." It documented the creation of reefer madness in the US as the brainchild of William Randolph Hearst and his friend the head of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics Harry Anslinger. The bureau was almost out of business for lack of anything to do, and Hearst had invested in millions of acres of wood along the California coast which he wanted to sell to paper mills without competition from hemp - it was pure propaganda foisted off on gullible Americans, many of whom - like the current Attorney General of the United States - believe it to this day.

BTW, the first anti-marijuana laws in the country were disorderly conduct statutes passed by the Texas legislature in 1902 for the express purpose of using he police power to repress the Mexicans, who were not doing anything wrong at the time.

The poverty in Mexico, I believe (but am more than willing to be corrected if I am wrong), has its roots in 400 years of European repression of the indigenous peoples.

I am moderately familiar with, and somewhat well educated in, the subject of American history, but I am a neophyte when it comes to Mexican history, having read only the biography of Emiliano Zapata and a couple of cultural anthropological
books on the subject, so if you believe I am wrong about that, I will be happy to be corrected.

GigiB87
1/10/2018 12:39 EST

I think a problem with the way many people define or attack a problem is that they don't realize, or ignore the fact intentionally to make their point, that it is always a cost/benefit analysis. It also important to identify the winners and losers. Trickle down folks come to mind for some reason. I'm sure I can't imagine why! :-)
Iturbe, muchas gracias!

GigiB87
1/10/2018 13:03 EST

Re: Behemoth to the north.
Imagine the effect of sending back 200,000 people to El Salvador, a country of just over 8,000 square miles, about the size of Massachusetts. Equivalent, if my figures are correct, to relocating 9 million folks to the US, except ES is a country much more densely populated with an area 2/100 of a percent of the area of the US.
And look back in time to the history of US relations with Mexico. I am living in a state that was part of Mexico, as is Texas, California, Arizona. Doesn't bother the clueless but don't doubt it had an impact, as did economic exploitation and adventurism. Ever wonder why there are no US oil companies in Mexico. And check back to the history of the United Fruit Company in Central America.
Or you can put your head in the sand and pretend all that never happened, or pretend it happened so long ago no one in Mexico remembers.

GranJefe
1/10/2018 13:12 EST

Present day Mexico = real world problems that exist are : corrupt federal government, wealthy controlling families (monies dating back to Spanish roots, the Catholic church and the Drug Cartels (and want-a-be's).

GigiB87
1/10/2018 13:22 EST

Una pregunta, Gran Jefe. What country is your current residence? Just curious. I live in New Mexico, which, as a young professional hockey player once proclaimed, is a bad name for it as it is not Mexico and certainly not new.

longtimelurker
1/10/2018 20:05 EST

Larry, I agree with your Brit friend that overall NAFTA has been very very good for Mexico (and the USA, Canada).

Here are a couple of things you might enjoy reading.

Somebody posted this newspaper article on one of the Chapala boards a while back. It made an impression on me and showed me how different Mexico is from the States

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OAM19130524.2.73.11

Here is another, more recent but still the same sh_t going on.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MEXICO2187_a.html

larryoinpdx
1/10/2018 21:39 EST

Thanks, lurker - I will try to read these tomorrow afternoon, when I get to a breaking point in my ever-
expanding honey-do list. I expected to spend my early retirement on the beach with a pile of books, but when I make plans, God laughs!

Iturbide
1/11/2018 11:23 EST

Truth to power with regard to Mexican state of affairs, (emanating from topic title) other than folks like Larry, Gigi Leia, lacking much by lurkers, jefes and the like. Larry nailed it in his analyses ranging on Nixon's "War on drugs" to the roots of poverty in Mexico and indeed Latin America. Dictatorships in Central, South and North America, ( Yes, Mexico is in North America, look at a map, NOT central America as right wingers will have you believe), indeed a map prior to 1948 will show the Mexican empire covered central Amreica and the entire U.S. South west, until stolen in an unjust war. to expand then slave states. Hmmmm... wonder if a Mexican wall then, would have prevented this theft and the recent surge of las Armas from el norte, ( Mexican like Canadian gun laws are strict) that are killing so many poor young, recruited into the Narco ranks as sacrificial lambs to supply the insatiable demand for drugs from el Norte and internecine drug wars, some resulting in Topic title. Not to mention the first Americans, before the Mayflower's arrival
( aka indigenous) toiling in farms in el norte for slave wages. ( that some are deemed illegal is laughable). Sad would be an understatement. Will not respond to inaccurate, alternate facts, attacks and other rubbish; only hard facts, historical, otherwise and truth to power.

Iturbide
1/11/2018 11:29 EST

Omission; Dictatorships propped up and democracies like Allende in Chile and Sandino in Nicaragua killed by you know who....

kikipt
1/11/2018 11:48 EST

Larry, I would be interested in knowing more about your Brit neighbor who thinks NAFTA has been such a great deal for Mexico. Has he benefited personally, thus extending the feeling of prosperity more broadly, or is he perhaps identifying with the tiny fraction of Mexicans who have made killings from the effects of NAFTA (you may take the pun as you wish). Somehow I don't think the number of cars on the road is a real marker of general prosperity. Though it may indicate a growing middle class, of sorts, it doesn't say anything about the millions at the bottom. Most of my reading suggests that the benefits have been quite focused, and hardly shared among the most vulnerable people in the country.

kikipt
1/11/2018 12:04 EST

lurker - I am not sure how relevant century old articles are in explaining the current state of affairs. There has been a LOT of water over the dam since then. I agree, however, that the roots of Mexico's problems are very ancient, and the European invasion was hardly the beginning. Pre-Columbian societies were also askew economically, as anyone who has visited Monte Alban and understood that there were peasants carrying water up the mountain every day to satisfy the needs of the elite on top will know. That seems to be a perfect metaphor for what has been the case in Mexico all along, despite intermittent efforts to address or rectify the situation, (Look at what happened to Felipe Carillo Puerto, for example!) And there have been dramatic shifts in power structures in Mexico before - as we witness with the mysterious collapse of the Maya cities after the twelfth century, and the return of the Maya to a more localized and agrarian society, something we still know very little about. But while the US had a period in the mid-twentieth century where it appeared that government was poised to balance economic inequality, and to create a more level playing field across the board, those efforts have gradually, and now drastically, been thwarted, and there is less and less difference between North America's two most populated countries. Take an extended trip through much of Appalachia sometime, and you will see for yourself.

Songster
1/11/2018 12:11 EST

not much has been said in the US about the effects of NAFTA, and for good reason. the US has clearly lost jobs to both mexico and canada, to the benefit of (surprise!) multinational corporations and to the detriment of US workers.

trump is right to suggest a re-negotiation of this trade treaty, which also sets up a litigation procedure that allows corporations to file lawsuits against any nation that enforces environmental laws, or other laws, that have negative effects on commerce. why should the laws of sovereign nations be overridden by the corporatocracy??? sheer madness...

larryoinpdx
1/11/2018 12:14 EST

kiki, my neighbor is 86, and the number of cars on the road is, indeed, the measure by which he judges Mexican prosperity, and I agree that is just as shallow and superficial a test as you suggest it is. He and his wife call themselves "conservative," which to them mean he does not like to see tax money wasted. I got as far with him as asking if he meant on things like massive weapons systems, the maintenance of empire world-wide and pandering to entrenched vested interests before my SO interrupted, seeing where the conversation was going and wanting to keep on good terms with the neighbors. I cannot blame her, really, but that was as far as I got. I am certain you are correct about the narrow class of beneficiaries of Mexico's newly developed prosperity. Yesterday longtimelurker sent me sites for a couple of articles one of which identifies Mexico's richest families, their interconnections and their handles on the political power players, who consistently warn against "too much reform." You can find his post just above in the threads - the articles are eye openers.

GigiB87
1/11/2018 12:21 EST

I liked your post a lot Iturbe. For NAFTA: what is the overall economic impact, in increased economic growth and in hidden costs? Average Mexican earnings have increased to the point that Mexico is no longer considered a third world country. But in the process the corrupt political structure has not adapted well, despite the growth in GDP, and the country has at times been considered a failed state, with the growth in massive criminal enterprises getting in on the economic boom. Maquiladoras. correct me if I am wrong, operate without many of the safety and environmental constraints mandate is the US. And workers are happy to make a fraction of US wages, given the alternatives. Who are the winners and who are the losers? I would say at least that the indirect negative impact of NAFTA on Mexico and the US is severe, and at least in the US, and most likely in Mexico as well, there are, despite the overall economic growth, many very, very.sore losers (including Mexican indigenous people who hare exploited and marginalized).

GigiB87
1/11/2018 12:28 EST

Edited rewrite, apologies for f... ups. I iked your post a lot Iturbe! For NAFTA: what is the overall economic impact, in increased economic growth and in hidden costs? Average Mexican earnings have increased to the point that Mexico is no longer considered a third world country. But in the process the corrupt political structure has not adapted well, despite the growth in GDP, and the country has at times been considered a failed state, with the growth in massive criminal enterprises getting in on the economic boom. Maquiladoras. correct me if I am wrong, operate without many of the safety and environmental constraints mandated in the US. And workers there are happy to make a fraction of US wages, given the alternatives. Who are the winners and who are the losers? I would say at the very least that the indirect negative impact of NAFTA on Mexico and the US is severe, and at least in the US, and most likely in Mexico as well, there are, despite the overall economic growth, many very, very.sore losers (including Mexican indigenous people who have been exploited and marginalized). Hey, when a mining company ( or oil pipeline) wants to move into your neighborhood better get out of the way!

GigiB87
1/11/2018 12:31 EST

Great post Larry! Don't we all have neighbors like that???!!!! I sure do.

GigiB87
1/11/2018 13:01 EST

Ditto Kikipt. Gini coefficients, which measure income distribution in a country, are a cool thing to look at. Doesn't fully describe consequences of NAFTA, obviously. But helps identify problems. Don't believe (know, actually) changes in income distribution have not been towards greater equality in US for sure.

Iturbide
1/11/2018 13:51 EST

Agreed Gigi; that NAFTA's net effect has improved working/middle class Mexicans' lot, mindful though it was designed to and did help the upper elite class much more. The native poor who farmed their land for millennia became abject poor, their fields expropriated by Mexican oligarch crooks. Many of these poor went up el norte looking for hard work. Many didn't have the resources to apply "Legally" and were/are subject to modern day servitude.
Many here north of el norte contend though that NAFTA was designed to obtain cheap resources (Lumber, oil ,etc) from Kanata and cheap labor from Mejico to benefit U.S. industry. But in the mid-90's the rich got greedier and placed manufacturing and other business in even yet dirt cheap labor in Asia. That eventually resulted the huge economic divide that led to the huge social and cultural divide (imho) in the current U.S. states of affairs. Watch out for a Mexican nationalist LO; if elected this summer, he will build a wall, but of a different kind.
With regard to an earlier post on comparing European invasion to those of internal Native American ones, (Monte Alban , Oaxaca as an example and the Mayas) with all due respect, this is a ridiculous and totally out of context assertion. Foundations of one country being through decimation of indigenous peoples/creation of reserves, slavery and acquisition of land, property and resources through brute force in the modern "democratic era" post 17000's. Yes, history cannot be re-litigated and is full of not so nice things globally. But the past has to be taken into account to understand the present and to move forward. Or as the old adage goes "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it "

GigiB87
1/11/2018 15:18 EST

Hard to improve on that post. And the wealthy are in a better strategic position to, absence regulatory or moral constraints, to consolidate and improve their positions while us peons, not so much, at least right now.

kikipt
1/11/2018 15:29 EST

Iturbide - as much as I enjoy and respect your postings, I regret that you did not read very carefully, and so misunderstood mine. Your comment about Monte Alban seems to miss entirely the meaning of the statement to which it refers, which concerned the disparity between classes and tasks in earlier epochs of Mexican history. It had nothing to do with invasions. The historic record is pretty clear on many things. One of those is that the poor in Mexico were accustomed to being abused by elites from the earliest stages of civilization. Nonetheless, there were also continual attempts to change things. The choice of so many groups to join with Cortez in knocking out the Aztecs is a perfect case in point. Aztec policy made life far more difficult for the subject states. They wanted to remove the yoke, and saw Cortez as an opportunity. It didn't work out quite as the Tlaxcalans, for example, and their neighboring groups had hoped. In the case of the Maya, their re-organized and seemingly less-polarized society (at least according to Bishop Landa) was far more efficient at withstanding the European invasion than were the more "advanced" societies in Central Mexico, but even though it took longer to accomplish, in the end they still succumbed to the might of European technology and germs. History does not occur in a vacuum, and pre-Columbian societies are very much a part of the modern Mexican psyche. The victimization of Mexico has always occurred both internally and externally. And one may also point out the diversity on the list of Mexico's wealthiest, cited above. Not all the names there are dyed-in-the-wool Mexicans. There are still representations of European dominance, such as with Carlos Slim Helu, whose family is Lebanese. But regardless of the origin of the elites, they still seem to have little compunction in trampling the masses. I am afraid that the second half of your post is rather garbled, and self-contradictory. The intent is not very clear, especially the statements about national origins, which fail to identify which country you reference, or in contrast to what. Also, you on one hand appear to have dismissed examples from history as "ridiculous and irrelevant", while, at the same time seeming to quote Santayana. I would welcome being able to understand your intent more accurately.

larryoinpdx
1/11/2018 16:29 EST

Thanks, lturbide - those are the effects of NAFTA I had identified, but not as clearly nor as cohesively as you have.

worxs
1/11/2018 16:32 EST

Whatever, I like Mexico and contrary to the Libtard posts. Most of my friends are Mexican business owners and conservative North Americans. We are all pro-Trump and nothing gigi, pampered deb or crazy larry says will change that. These wackos are ruining this board. RVGRINGO is the best non political source.

worxs
1/11/2018 16:35 EST

Glad I saved a few bucks here and there

Iturbide
1/11/2018 17:13 EST

Thanks for elaborating, kikipt; re-visited your previous post and all you historical observations below from Montezuma/ Cortez to Diego Landa and Mayans. While agreeing with most of your writing below, it is the context firstly I refer to. Pre-Hispanic natives did not have a monopoly on elites abusing the poor. This was rampant in the rest of the world, Asia, Africa, the middle East and yes, Europe. Case in point; the word Slave is a corrupted word from Slav, in an era when Eastern Europeans served as slaves to Romans and others. The broader point is social classes existed from the dawn of time to all in this planet. So fast forward to arrival of C. Colon, Cortez et al; Divide and conquer is the oldest military tactic, employed in all corners of the world. The country I refer to after the colonies revolted and established independence through democracy. What ensued was the fate of many native americans, such as the trail of tears, etc; continuation of slavery and an unjust war to extend slave states that resulted in the loss of half Mexico's territory. The comparison of Historical events transpired in two continents (the Americas) as to the rest of the world or for that matter within a country (Mexico), I believe is unfair to that of two continents whose population was eradicated by germs more than European technology ( Africa and Asia had immunity, thus able to expel its colonists and become independant). C. Slim is an aberration, and is of Middle Eastern descent, not European. And yes there is still yet horrible exploitation of the top few rich Mexicans of the vast majority. That does not however justify social injustices both within Mexico and towards Mexicans. "Open veins of Latin America" by late Eduardo galleano" speaks to much of this.
As for the countries I refer to, Kanata is the First nations (indigenous) name for Canada, Mejico, for Mexico and the third, surely you know. My Santayana quotation, was well intended ; in that may past mistakes not be repeated. Believe this to be a very complex subject and probably result in mis-understanding. I do however appreciate your laid out facts, and what I believe to be sincere writing.

GigiB87
1/11/2018 19:07 EST

Worxs: I see nothing in your past 29 posts that show anything related to your position as a Mexican captain of industry. Where? Doing what? Really? Or are you, like your hermanito Gran Jefe, who won't even tell me his country of origin, a potential, fraud, phony, poser? Really don't know, but your resorting to name calling in response to some actual intelligent, civil discourse makes me wonder who you really are ( other than a small minded little man). Enjoyed the other posts. Thanks, all!

larryoinpdx
1/11/2018 20:53 EST

worxs - No one here doesn't like Mexico - you are most likely a Russian bot, but you may just be a common slime troll. Begone!

Iturbide
1/12/2018 07:21 EST

Lady Liberty reportedly shed many tears in the past many hours; Larger ones in the form of giant raindrops from the heavens above extinguished her torch's flames. So much words of hate and division spewed recently :(

GigiB87
1/12/2018 13:20 EST

I am with you, and know exactly what you are talking about. Words clearly can do damage, even coming from a .... Well, fill in the blank. Many appropriate perjoratives.

longtimelurker
1/13/2018 08:13 EST

'lurker - I am not sure how relevant century old articles are in explaining the current state of affairs. There has been a LOT of water over the dam since then"

Kikipt, Thanks for the laugh and then starting a discussion on Pr-Columbian history.

You believe an old news article about the recent Revolution has little bearing on Mexico today? You just dismiss it?

Let me simplify it for you. That 1913 article was about the Mexico equivalent of the Rockerfella's, Morgan's and Rothchild's. That kind of wealth and power doesn't disappear in 100 years. Not saying the USA has no influence on Mexico but these families have done more to shape today's Mexico than most of you NOBers know.
If you want to know the effects of Nafta on Mexico read the local Mexico news and not rely solely on slanted USA media.
It is ridiculous trying to compare murder rates between Mexico and the USA. They are totally different animals. Can anyone posting point out the major difference?

GigiB87
1/13/2018 11:10 EST

Not as smart as you think you are, lurker. And accusing others of a level of ignorance you have a PH.D. in. I was thinking about asking you for some clarification but why bother? Sad. You really think you have all the answers.

GigiB87
1/13/2018 11:33 EST

But, just in case all us idiots wake up and see the light, what local Mexican newspapers, that you read regularly, do you recommend?

And how are murders in Mexico "completely different"? Is that because the victims are not tourists and expats, generally? Just, cartel rivals, journalists, activists, witnessess, students, teachers? Mexican citizens, in other words.

En que pueblo vive?

Personally, I have found many (not all) of the local papers in the US pussyfoot around, and are beholden to, local business and political interests. Very reluctant to go after the powerful and influential. We just had a string of puff pieces on our new rapid transit system in Albuquerque. Took the new, progressive mayor taking over from the republican developer leaving office to reveal that the January unveiling was delayed indefinitely due to problems with new buses and construction at many of the stops. Check out Albuquerque Journal on line.

kikipt
1/13/2018 18:10 EST

As usual, you didn't read any of my posts very carefully (and you do not proof-read your own! i.e. Rockefeller and Rothschild are the correct spellings.)

I am not disagreeing with the content of the century old article, only with the idea that it in any way adds to the discussion. If anything, it just reinforces that class divides and privilege have defined Mexico from the beginning, and which are still painfully obvious. The status of things at the time of the revolution, while they show how little things have changed, do not present us with causation, which is exactly why I brought up the parallels to pre-Hispanic cultures in Mexico. What is more instructive is to consider the impact this ongoing situation has on the Mexican cultural milieu and the psyche. I have my own observations, and they bear more directly on the original post, but I doubt they would be of any interest to you.

And I never mentioned murder rates between the countries, particularly since murder rates are really only comparable on a much more local level. There is a reason why I feel perfectly safe walking down the streets of Mérida while I would not feel equally as safe on the streets of Reynosa. Same country, vastly different circumstances.

From your comments I must assume that you do not consider yourself to be a NOB'er, though the reason for that would be elusive. Personally I read six daily newspapers here in Mérida, though that does not prevent me from accessing American media as well. Some of us like to get multiple perspectives, and your presumptions about us are invalid. The impact of NAFTA seems to be a mixed bag for all the countries involved, depending where one is located on the socio-economic wheel.

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