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Considering move from Chicago to LT

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Jimushkas
  5/25/2010 10:53 EST

I've been married for 3 years to a wonderful Lithuanian woman. We're talking about retiring to Lithuania in a few years but I'd like to get some feedback from any expats who have actually done it.

My wife grew up near Kaunas but then moved to Klaipida after university. From her descriptions though, we'd probably settle in Vilnus.

I only speak a few words of Lithuanian and find it a difficult language to learn. I speak a little German though and would definitly take classes to learn the language.

How much less is the cost of living in Vilnus compared to the US? Currently living in downtown Chicago, is there enough to do in Vilnus socially/culturally?

Thanks for any input!

dnyhan
  5/25/2010 11:53 EST

My partner is also Lithuanian.

I considered it myself, but was advised against it at every turn (both here and everywhere else).

Now I have more in-depth knowledge of the country, I fully understand why.
Even my partner says she doesn't want to return there anymore.

I won't go into reasons why, but I will just say this: why do you think emigration is such a massive problem in Lithuania?
It's not because it's a wonderful country to live in, that much is certain.

Abakan
  5/25/2010 16:25 EST

Hi,
Well, although Vilnius is expensive, it is probably cheaper than Chicago, but now is not the time to buy real estate. The government is seriously considering introducing a tax on flats and housing prices may fall, if for no other reason than to avoid paying tax. The problem with Lithuanian real estate is that it is about the only safe investment for excess money. So we have a big bubble that has deflated some, but not entirely. Housing prices before the crisis were similar to Sweden's only our wages are a lot lower and the flats in much worse condition for the same price.

My advice, esp. since culture shock can be severe when you don't speak the language, is to spend a year (or more) here in a rented flat and then decide. Then you can always go back easily and painlessly if you can't stand it. A couple months' vacation is not the same as living here.

Culturally, Vilnius is probably behind Chicago. We don't have the same money for the cultural events nor do we have the ethnic diversity.

Being an older person, you are going to have trouble adjusting to doing everything differently. You won't even have your comfort foods, whatever they may be, unless your wife has been cooking Lithuanian dishes for you and that is what you like. But there are no banana splits here or any marshmellow sauce, for example. Marshmellows are generally heavy sweet confections, not the light pillows found in the States. The only exceptions ars usually kids' flavoured sweets made in Western Europe. Finding unflavoured examples is difficult, although it used to be possible.

And not speaking the language, you are going to have to depend 100% on your wife to handle everything. There will be very few people in your age group that speak English. There is supposed to be a retirement community for Lithuanians who have come back to retire. If you are still serious about moving here, I can ask my cousin where it is. But how many people this might involve, I cannot say. Probably not many.

Another thing is that your wife may act differently in Lithuania. In the US, she has tried no doubt to act 'American', but here she will revert to old habits. She may also feel freer to express her true feelings, feelings she may have hid from herself in Chicago. This may put a strain on the relationship.

On the other hand, I live here quite comfortably, which is due in large part to my wife. I know and see lots of interesting people. There are lots of new things to do and taste here, if you like to explore. We just had a great time at the annual wine tasting, for example. The weather is great as it is generally not too hot in the summer, and a dry cold in the winter. P2P programmes allow you to enjoy US TV on the computer.

For a newsletter that is generally upbeat about Vilnius and Lithuania, you can contact Aage Myhre about Vilnews. Google to get his address. For example: http://groups.google.com/group/askas/browse_thread/thread/83e77ba3b9e8d4be?pli=1

Abakan
  5/26/2010 03:09 EST

Costs also depend on lifestyle. Many Lithuanians can live cheaply because they eat out of gardens in the village and eat lots of porridge, potatoes, beets, and cabbage. They also use the buses and live in smallish flats.

Public entertainment is mostly in Lithuanian only, esp. live performances. It also often has a modern appearance rather than a classical one. Lithuanian humor is often similar to Benny Hill. I am sure there are better analogies, but I con't think of one at the moment that Americans would readily recognise.

One strong point here is nature. Lithuanians like natural products and to spend time in the outdoors.

We have high unemployment here at the moment, so if you are counting on your wife finding work, don't. She might because of her English skills, and she might not. Being ex-Soviet, it will be harder for her.

I like it here and would not move elsewhere unless the Russian experimental nuclear power plant they are going to build in Belarus as close as possible to Vilnius blows up. But then I probably won't have a chance to leave anyway. Where is the EU when you need them? Shut down a well-regulated plant so you can build an unregulated experimental one.

One advantage to Lithuania is that you can keep 9 inch snails (12 if you can raisse them that big.) here while they are illegal in the US. If you like trying new things, then by all means try it for a year. But if you have trouble adjusting to change, don't expect too much.

rikmo
  5/26/2010 03:33 EST

Hello Jimushkas - Abakan is right on with the info he has given you. I am an American who has lived here for almost 10 years, and I am real tired of this place - however, it would be a great hardship to try to re-establish us in the USA - please know that if your wife has a green card, that it will be revoked if she lives more than 6 months out of a calendar year outside the USA - so much for Homeland Security and the Patriot Acts. You will need to learn Lithuanian if you have hopes of getting a decent job here, or teach English. Abakan has forgotten to mention that Lithuania has one, if not the highest rate of suicide, road deaths, and alchoholism in the entire world. It may seem exotic and interesting to live here for a while, but there has to be a reason why so many Lithuanians want to leave their country and live elswhere if they can. My advice is to make sure that you have options to return back to the USA easily with your wife if you come here. I feel trapped here now in a boring and hopeless culture of apathy and desperation. If you want to raise giant snails, you may enjoy some entertainment from it. Again, be careful if your wife has a green card - stay too long, and it will be a hard road to get her back with you into the USA. My advice is to visit first for a while, or not move here at all. Since you are not a member of the EU, the laws and policies here are against you in many ways.

rikmo
  5/26/2010 03:50 EST

Hello again Jimushkas - I viewed your profile, and I think that your idea to move and live here is maybe a bad idea. The culture and atmosphere here is much more boring and negative than Chicago. At first it will all seem interesting, but you will jumping from the frying pan into the fire in coming here. If you are having a hard time in the USA - you will probably have a harder time here. The grass is not greener here - it is a apathetic, sick culture that reminds people of the little kid in the schoolyard with a chip on his shoulder. The people are intrinscally dishonest and 2-faced. This may be due to the fact that they have been occupied by the Soviet Union for so long, but it doesn't chang3e the fact. Only a very few Americans have ever come here and stayed - the culture and oportunistas here are so limited.

Abakan
  5/26/2010 06:19 EST

Yes, Rikmo is correct about the green card. If your wife stays here too long, then you will have to start all over again and US officials have gotten nastier since 9/11 so if she has had it for a while, it may not be a very pleasant experience. Check with the US officials before you leave. The consulate here will also know, but many documents are processed at the embassy in Warsaw, so reapplying for a green card will probably require at least one trip to that city. And the US still does not encourage Lithuanians to move to the US. So expect obstacles to be erected wherever possible.

One option would be for your wife to return alone to the US in time to save her green card and for you to try to live here alone as long as you can hold out. That will make you less dependent on her help when she returns.

Rikmo is also correct in saying that 90% or more of Americans return home, unable to stay here due to culture shock. Most have not learned the language. Whether this is a higher statistic than for other countries, I cannot say. But it is a definite warning to be very careful in planning to relocate to Lithuania.

As to the suicide rate, there are a number of problems behind it. One is that people expected to live like West Germans after independence and while living standards have risen, they are not at that level. But people refuse to see the true wealth they have compared to many African nations, for example. Another factor is that shortly after independence, the old managers were tossed aside and replaced by recent graduates. Thus we have a very low average age for managers. This bonanza is now over and it is difficult breaking into the market. I can see it in my field of translation. 12 years ago translations were much less accurate siimply because the resouces were not there. So your proficiency could be a lot less back then compared to today. This makes for a negative comparison: your boss became a director when he was 30, but you are unlikely to acheive equal success. A third factor is that psychology is mostly limited to abnormal psychology, not practical psychology and so people who attempt suicide are given almost no care, leading to second, third, and more attempts.

One factor for emigration is better working conditions abroad: no overtime, better pay, and better benefits in the EU. People mostly stay in Lithuania either because they don't know a foreign language or home is more important than money. Whatever caused your wife to leave in the first place probably still exists. Is she going to be able to live with that?

I presume you are going to live off of a pension. If you are thinking of finding a part-time job, then you will definitely encounter lots of problems.

One thing that Rikmo and I failed to mention is that there are very strict requirements for declaring your marriage in Lithuania. If you fail to properly declare it, then you lose many rights, like to five-year residenccy permits without meeting a language requirement. Please check with the Lithuanian consulate in Chicago about this. If your wife is still registered as resident in Lithuania, this can add to such problems. That she has a green card and that the marriage is fully recognised in the US has no bearing on the situation.

I was married here and had to prove that I was not married in the US. Very easy to prove in Lithuania, very difficult in the US. So everyone has their own problems to face. You will not be the first or the last. Keep this in mind the next time you encounter one.

Ziema26
  6/6/2010 00:35 EST

Jimushkas:

I am an American woman who lived in Vilnius for approximately two years. My experience may be different than 'men' in that it unless you're a foreign woman already married upon arriving in Lithuania, it is very difficult for a woman from a wealthy nation to start and maintain a relationship with a Lithuanian man or even befriend a woman. Your financial status is a HUGE barrier to establishing friendships in Lithuania. This was probably my biggest difficulty while living in Lithuania -- at one time I earned three times more than the average Lithuania (and it wasn't much).

Whoever advised you to just visit Lithuania before deciding to settle there is right! I am not writing about all the other stuff like lying, cheating, deception, etc. that I encountered there. Of course, this happens in every society, as we are all human, but it seems to hurt more or hit deeper when you experience it in a foreign culture.

In summary, heed the warnings! And don't forget the U.S. has 10% unemployment, but Lithuania has 18%!

Of course, if you are involved in any kind of missionary work over there, forget everything I said :-).

roigroeg
  6/6/2010 10:28 EST

My Lithuanian wife and I are moving from Massachusetts to Vilnius on August 1 (2010). We were married in Vilnius in 2004 and my wife immigrated to the US in Oct 2005, where we have lived ever since. Now we are going to live in LT. We have a flat there, she has a job waiting for her, and I can create income via the internet.
My burning questions are:
1. I will seek to get a 5 year residency permit once we have arrived. My understanding is that I can live in LT for up to 90 days without official documentation, but it can take much longer than 90 days to get the permit. Will immigration let me stay beyond 90 days pending approval of my residency permit???
2. If I arrive in Vilnius without a "return ticket" for travel out of LT within the 90 day window (in other words, arriving on a one-way ticket), will they let me in in the first place?
3. How can I hook up with other Americans in Vilnius?
4. We checked with the INS regarding my wife's Green Card status and living outside of the US, and since we will be returning to the US for regular visits at least annually, there should be no problem keeping the Green Card valid.

I would appreciate you advice, remarks or experiences that would help me make this transition as smooth as possible.

George

Abakan
  6/7/2010 00:02 EST

Lithuania is a matriarchy, but that does not mean a patriarchy with skirts. 40% of women here earn more than their husbands. I am in that category. The problem starts in childhood when girls are told to stay in and work around the flat, while boys are thrown outside to play. As a consequence, finding a serious man is a problem here. Many women are marrying foreigners, because it is either that or remain single. There is also lots of husband stealing.

1. A 5 year visa takes 6 months to obtain and you are expected to leave the country if you do not have a proper visa. I have heard that if you pay the fine, you can stay without the proper paperwork, but whether this is true, who knows for sure. It means you are at the mercy of the officials handling your paperwork.
In other words, the corrrect procedure would be to obtain a 1 year visa, which takes 3 months and then 5-6 months later, start the process for obtaining your 5 year visa.

2.
Arriving without a return ticket should not be a
problem.

3. You are welcome to hang out with me. There are some Americans who meet with the Hashers. Other than that, they are scattered. Couldn't say where to find them.

4.
Make sure you check with Lithuanian officials so that your marriage is properly registered in Lithuania. Otherwise you will not obtain a 5 year visa without learning 1000 Lithuanian words.

Abakan
  6/7/2010 00:35 EST

A couple other things,

Just by being American, you are automatically considered to be wealthy, if for no other reason than that it takes so much money to move across the ocean. But begging is not necessarily directed exclusively towards foreigners.

By speaking bad Lithuanian and having a Lithuanian passport and last name, I usually duck that problem. I just say I spent many years abroad and they lose interest. My language ability is somewhat approximate to that. Some people retain their language abroad, other do not. My Lithuanian is approximate to the latter.

But so long as you do not have sufficient language abilities, then you do not interact with the whole community, only that part interested in foreigners - either as a source of easy money and free training or as a sounding board for anti-Lithuanian sentiments. As you integrate, this section looks for other targets and you meet normal people.

As to language, Lithuanian is an easy langage to learn, as languages go. The roots are not usually close to English roots, but once you learn one root, you know about 20 words. I will be glad to help you learn the language when you arrive.

JimmyM
  6/19/2010 14:31 EST

I stumbled across this topic when searching for expats in Lithuania and thought I would contribute. I'm a 25 year old English guy who has spent a few months in Klaipeda, Lithuania earlier this year.

Some of the points mentioned here I have some experience of and some I don't. Firstly, about the language... I know probably 5 Lithuanian words and only had problems a couple of times. Young people there speak English with the majority being able to hold a full-blown conversation. I'm thinking of returning in September for a year (we're in the EU making it easier to stay there) and renting another apartment but next time I will make an effort to learn the language.

I had my fair share of problems/hassle when I was there. Being and looking English can sometimes cause problems. I often had people coming up to me begging for money (they assume that we're wealthy - I'm not!), this was awkward sometimes but I tried to ignore it. Other problems were things like being short-changed in restaurants and also nearly being run over because of the terrible driving style that most drivers have. Here in the UK, drivers have to give way to pedestrians, in Lithuania they don't care resulting in someone nearly running me over.

There are some positives though, accommodation (I had an apartment) was quite cheap, as was food. Internet there is very good (I need it for my work) and if you have a problem the cable company come out within a day or so. A lot of people are quite friendly if you make the effort to talk to them (even in English).

Being English I found it hard to deal with 'manners' there. For example, a few times I went out of my way to hold a door for someone (something we do here all the time) and most Lithuanians don't say thank you. I also witnessed women spitting in the street - I was shocked.

I often got quite bored in Klaipeda, although different to Vilnius (I visited there as well) there isn't a lot to do. Working, going to the gym, shopping, karaoke, bars and cinema were about all I could find. I knew a few students from the University so often spoke with them but there are very few Americans/Brits there.

There are lots of places to visit, public transport is quite good also and very cheap. Most people take the bus or walk although there is still quite heavy traffic in places.

As mentioned earlier I'm thinking of going back there in September for a few reasons but it's a culture shock and the experience is 'what you make of it'.

On the whole, not somewhere I would settle permanently but a place that I could live for maybe a few years.

During the last few days of living there I was quite glad I was leaving, but now I'm looking forward to going back and leaving England - which quite frankly has gone down the pan!

If anyone fancies meeting up in Lithuania later in the year drop me a message, it would be nice to meet some expats!

Abakan
  6/20/2010 04:46 EST

Hi,
Welcome aboard. I would be interested in your impressions after returning. One thing that has changed in Klaipeda is that you board busses only by the front door to help cut down on non-paying passengers. Bus tickets are now 2 litas or a little better than half a euro and no transfers (free pass for a connecting bus).

JimmyM
  6/20/2010 06:01 EST

Hi!

Coming from England I thought the buses were very good value for money but on my second visit I must have only used them a few times (during a 6 week period). The buses in rush hour were always full but got me from A to B without too many problems. My reason for not using them too much was because I would walk everywhere, obviously if I was in a rush or it was freezing cold I would use them.

My apartment near the Klaipeda hotel so it was close to pretty much everything, and within easy walking distance of the shopping mall and other places. I would do my shopping at the large Iki store near the park with the monuments and after a while got to know some of the staff there to say hello to!

I have lots of impressions but most of my opinions are formed after comparing things to other countries (which isn't always a good thing). I can see why a lot of people want to leave, there were times when I wasn't enjoying it and was looking forward to going home but things did get better.

The main thing I missed from home was being able to have a chat with someone randomly in the street or when out and about. Although there isn't really a language barrier a lot of Lithuanian people don't want to strike up a conversation with a stranger.

I'm lucky enough that my own business can be run from anywhere so I don't need to worry about finding work in LT but for those looking for work who can't speak the language then I imagine it would be extremely difficult.

There are lots of things I like about Lithuania and only a few things I don't like!

I like:
- The cost of living
- Most of the people
- Good transport links
- Food was ok
- Flexibility of being able to rent an apartment

I don't like:
- The driving/highway code
- The small minority who beg for money or shortchange me
- The fact there are so few expats there!

Obviously there are a lot more 'likes' and 'dislikes' but don't have really have space for them all. If anyone has any specific questions I would be happy to answer them.

I have joined the Lithuania-Forum.com website in the hope that I will meet/communicate with some fellow expats whilst there.

Guillo
  3/2/2011 12:55 EST

As folks have been saying here, it is a rather bold and rather hard move. I guess it all depends on how happy you are here and why your wife wants to move back. I've lived in several places in the States and the rest of the Western world. I come from south America, and after living in several US cities I moved here to work in Chicago Translation Services. I work with people from all around the world, and I ended up marrying a lithuanian-american. I've been to Vilna with her a couple of times, since she has family there. I've seen a large part of that section of Europe, and while definitely an interesting place to visit, it is easy to tell you would probably be much better off living somewhere else in Eastern Europe. And if you don't speak the language, I wouldn't even consider it before learning to speak it more or less fluently.

Matt1973
  3/5/2011 17:10 EST

Hi there Jim, My name is Matthew. I moved to Vilnius on the 14th of february 2011. To date i have only learnt the very basics in language too, so do not worry. Actually many people do not speak english. I think some 20 to 30 year old people sometimes do. On the odd occasion you may find someone in a shop or a bar. but generally i find they are either very good at it or very bad. I work here as a managing director am for a computer firm in Vilnius (I am 38) single man. Self employed and here due to the cheaper labour and way of life. Im getting slowly used to the diet and very much lack of courtesy and kindness. I find that they generally hate (russian, polish and germans) due to the amount of slaughtering done in the past, which i can appretiate. If you speak german it can help i would say population wise it would be 10% russian, 20% polish, 75% lithuanian and then international mix for the last 5 %. I can be contacted on [email protected] if you need a friendly contact. I think i will take lessons too in the language as my english, japanese and thai does not work to good for them so it seems at the moment

Matt1973
  3/5/2011 17:24 EST

Hi there Abakan. I am Matt from UK. I now live and work here in Vilnius. I thought your passage was quite a good analogy of the area. Any suggestions for a 38 single male to find social groups pref partly english speaking. I have done the Sauna's in bezdonys pine forest during winter 2 weeks ago and yesterday walked on a frozen part of the baltic sea in palanga. what i miss most is common ground, courtesy, and a good english conversation. I live in Ladzynui with my colleague and work as a managing director in computing. But need to get out for sports / entertainment / meet like minded individuals. but i cant seem to find much about vilnius for foreigners anywhere? Any suggetions! regards Matt. [email protected]

Matt1973
  3/5/2011 17:47 EST

Hi Jimmy, i too am a Brit. I have been in Lithuania for about 2-3weeks. Lucky for me i live with a Lithuanian who i met in England. We work together and we run a business here. Courtesy is right out the window here, but its not suprising after what they went through in the past with the communistic ways and all the history of hardship. i think generally the country just do not do courtesy. There body language is somewhat different as is the way that they communicate with there mouths. I dont know how long your going to be here for or even if you have returned back to UK. I speak japanese, thai and english and also know about 5 handy lithuanian words. I generally keep myself to myself but do hunger for a good conversation and a couple of beers and some music with a friendly face. If you are about i am in Vilnius probably for the best part of the year though i have some business coming up in the states too. Again i Matt i a young 38.(ha ha) email: [email protected]. Cheers!

Lukasas75
  12/17/2013 08:07 EST

You will definitelly find what to do in Vilnius, don't be afraid. There is a lot of leisure activities not only during the weekends, but also in the middle of the week. I've also moved from a big city and I was afraid not find what to do, but then I discovered this website- Renginiai
Try!

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