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Contratti transitorio

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velvet
8/15/2015 03:29 EST

Hi All
Could any one please tell me how much it costs to get a Contratti transitorio on an apartment. Do the tenants or landord pay for this and how much would it cost if the tenant pays. We will be required to lodge the document at the time of visa application and Permesso so will need two copies.
Thanks
Velvet

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velvet
8/15/2015 04:18 EST

Sorry should be Contratto transitorio.

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JohnWare
8/15/2015 08:03 EST

It’s very easy. In fact, I just renewed my lease in Bologna and got one from my agent.

Whether you are going through an internet service or an agencia immobilare, they are required to give you a signed copy of your contratti once you’ve put down a “marker” - ususally first month’s rent or a security deposit.

DO NOT give anyone - even your potential landlord - any money unless they show you the contratti form first.

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JacksterJam
8/15/2015 11:02 EST

The only fee attached is if you find an apartment (either for transitori or residenti) through an agency that charges one, and that is payable by the renter, although the owner also pays a separate fee. The fee for the renter is usually equal to one-month's rent.

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JacksterJam
8/15/2015 11:08 EST

Unlike a deposit (of 1-2 month's rent), agency fees are non-refundable. And, I agree with the previous poster, although it is difficult to do from afar; they generally will not send a signed contract utill they have your deposit in hand.

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MAGICMAN
8/15/2015 12:42 EST

WHEN ASKING FOR INFORMATION ABOUT ITALY IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF ONE POST THE AREA THAT THEY ARE GOING TO. There is no set amout of rent, notary fee, and this aplies to many other thing in Italy. Rental contracts do not require notary signature in Italy, but the contract must be registraed in the Commune. It's not all as easy as some would want it to be. If one doesn't have contacts in Italy they would be wise to come for a long vacation, and get to know the area of choice, and if you can't aford that you probally shouldn't come to live in Italy. Just my opinion.

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Sergios
8/15/2015 12:47 EST

Or at least get yourself a relative in Italy.

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velvet
8/15/2015 18:42 EST

Thanks all. I was just a bit confused as the visa application requires the lease to be notarised and registered and I didn't know what this meant and when aslking to the Italian consulate they were very firm on this point.

MAGICMAN- - Your comments are a bit harsh and there is no reason to "yell".
Sergios- Yes a relative would be very handy and was wondering if you have one to sell. In fact the other night my husband made the comment "that we need a husband or wife who is Italian" lol.
Regards

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OC
8/15/2015 22:57 EST

Very well said Velvet. I'm glad you are asking the question on this contract. I'm also confused as to how I should proceed in obtaining this rental agreement for the application. I do understand in choosing an area/location first. But even then I don't know how to rent a place 6 months from now. let me know if you figure it out.

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Sergios
8/16/2015 01:15 EST

Off season vacation rentals are a short term solution. They can be had at "reasonable" prices [read expensive but not too expensive] which will allow you to be present to look for more permanent lodgings.

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velvet
8/16/2015 01:40 EST

OC We have decided on an area sort of. Possibly Lucca however I have been looking at apartments in Fiesole that don't seem too bad a price.
I remember reading that Lucca gets a lot of fog in Winter but that is not to much of a problem for me but may be for my darling husband.
Like anything there is a risk and we will have to make the decision on the apartment and have it all organised when we apply for the visa 90 days from travel.

Not sure whether it would be worth paying somebody tob check out the apartment or not.I would expext to pay a month or two's rent to hold the apartment so that doesn't come as a surprise. People on another travel site have offered to go and look at it for us and I thought that was so lovely.
I have been looking at websites with apartments for rent and some of them have "contratto transitorio" on top of the page advertising the apartment and when they are to become vacant..
Also have been advised to try and negotiate the price of an apartment down but I am unsure if this is the correct thing to do as I would not like to cause offence.
Regards
Velvet

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velvet
8/16/2015 01:44 EST

Sergios - The visa application does not allow us to do have a short term rental. It would have been perfect if we could have had this as an option and then found a place. When applying for the visa/permesso we must provide a notarized registered lease for 12 months.
Regards
velvet.

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MAGICMAN
8/16/2015 02:18 EST

tuscany.angloinfo.com/af/318/tuscany-property-management.html

LUCCA

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MAGICMAN
8/16/2015 03:08 EST

COPY AND PASTE TO BROZER

tuscany.angloinfo.com/af/318/tuscany-property-management.html


LUCCA

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whidden39
8/16/2015 04:01 EST

Fiesole is wonderfulul -- great views of Florence and a bus that takes you on a short trip to the city. Quieter and good services there too.

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velvet
8/16/2015 04:38 EST

Thanks -Whidden I hope you are enjoying your new life in Italy.We love Fiesole as well and hadn't given it much thought until I accidently came across the apartment.
If living in Italy becomes impossible because of the tax issues(and it gets worse the more I find out) we will just go and stay in Fiesole for 3 months.

MAGICMAN- Thanks for all those links as they are very helpful.
Regards to all
velvet

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Sergios
8/16/2015 05:50 EST

Oops. Sorry about that. I didn't need a visa because I came to require my citizenship.

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redjeans
11/3/2015 13:11 EST

Velvet, I have the same concerns about renting an apartment. My boyfriend and I would like to live in Bologna for 6 months. I've looked at soooo many apartments but I'm hesitant to choose one from so far away. How do I get a lease agreement before I pay the deposit and requested fees? Then, will there really be a kitchen when I get there? I hear so many strange stories. How many other fees will I have to pay that I don't know about? It's scary. I wish I could scout out the places first but I have to have a 6 month lease before my visa will be approved. Any relatives out there?

Thanks to all of you who share your stories and suggestions to us newbies! It's invaluable.

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Sergios
11/3/2015 14:27 EST

You can try an offseason vacation rental for a month to give you time to look for apartments "live"

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velvet
11/4/2015 02:25 EST

Hi Redjeans
It takes a lot of time and patience to try and understand this and I still have not resloved "the how to" . The whole moving to Italy scenarion for twelve months has become so complex that we have put it on hold for a few months. We will have to decide by June (at the latest) if we will go ahead. If you have a look at this forum you will see a lot of interesting topics that might help you in some way and those who are currently living in Italy are very kind and generous with their time in answering any questions. And Sergious is always good to throw in food comments. lol
Good luck and try not to get too overwhelmed with it all.
Regards
Velvet

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velvet
11/4/2015 02:26 EST

P.S. Sorry about the spelling

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JacksterJam
11/4/2015 03:04 EST

Hi Velvet. I read with interest your post about the requirement to provide a rental contract that covers the entire length of the visa period, as well as proof that is was registered with the Comune. The Italian consulate in the U.S. that I had to apply at required a copy of the contract, but it was not for the entire length of the visa (only for 3 months, not 12), nor was it a copy of the one the owners registered with the Comune. Their website still does not list either as a requirement. However, I checked the Italian consulate website for another city in the U.S. and they do list both requirements. While it worked to my advantage that the consulate I used didn't seem concerned about my rental contract, it is frustrating when even the consulate websites/offices aren't consistent, eh? If you decide on the Florence area, let me know and I can do some snooping around on any apartments you find that interest you. BTW, I also had to rent the apartment without first seeing it, just the pictures. It turned out to be a great apartment and I actually ended up staying there for 9 months. It was a "tourist" apartment, but once I registered residency, I found an apartment with a "resident" contract, which provides for much better renter protection. A lot of folks have to rent from afar and do fine. It's a bit scary, but very common (at least in Florence). Good luck.

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Sergios
11/4/2015 03:20 EST

Although it is an added expense, traveling to Italy before your visa is approved and during off season (cheaper) allows you to scope out areas and meet people and landlords face to face. You can stay up to 3 months for this purpose. It also provides you with a taste of the place you intend to live in. Just a suggestion.

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Sergios
11/4/2015 03:25 EST

Sorry if I've been repetitive. This is an old post which I did not remember commenting on in the past. At least I am consistent.

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velvet
11/4/2015 05:59 EST

Jackster- Thank you very much for your kind offer. We are thinking that if we went ahead we would take the risk of getting an apartment on photos. I know its a risk .Fiesole Florence, and Arezzo seem to be at the top of the list at the moment. I haven't given up on Lucca but my husband may have.
Sergious - It is really good to be consistent. Especially at my age as sometimes I can't remember what happened yesterday.lol
Hope this finds you all well and happy.
Regards
Velvet

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Sergios
11/4/2015 07:40 EST

Velvet, the San Lorenzo Market is reason enough to live in the Firenze area. The quality of the fresh foods, pastas, mushrooms, meats, etc is incredible. I would shop there everyday.

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JacksterJam
11/4/2015 07:44 EST

Hi Sergios. When were you last in Firenze?

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JacksterJam
11/4/2015 07:46 EST

Hi Velvet. Fiesole is lovely, but it is difficult to find a tourist apartment in that area. If you decide on the Florence area, I can suggest a few rental agencies that have a solid reputation.

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Sergios
11/4/2015 07:47 EST

2011 in July. It was a crematorium.

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JacksterJam
11/4/2015 07:47 EST

Velvet, I should have added that they have websites on which one can search and view available apartments.

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JacksterJam
11/4/2015 07:55 EST

Hi Sergios. The market has been remodeled. It reopened in 2014 and while it still has a selection of fresh food stuffs, about half of it is now small fast-food type eateries. Sadly, it is now geared more to the tourist and the prices reflect that. I actually don't go there any more. Luckily, I live on the Sant'Ambrogio side of the Duomo and that (traditional) market is thriving!

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Sergios
11/4/2015 08:32 EST

That's sad news. We have several traditional markets Palermo but they are not the same as the San Lorenzo used to be. You can by fresh fish and greens and meats but things like porcini, truffles, handmade fresh pastas are just not available here. Sicilian food and cooking are very different from Tuscon fare.

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JacksterJam
11/4/2015 08:45 EST

Sergios, I remember the first time I went to the San Lorenzo market (1990). I was amazed at the "sea" of produce on the top floor! I used to shop there quite often and miss it!! The Sant'Ambrogio market is much smaller, but still great! The next time you're in Firenze, check it out.

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Umbertomar
11/4/2015 09:40 EST

Hi redjeans,
Let's face it (as you have) the unknowns of a rental in Italy is the biggest confidence hurdle (at least for me it was). I was fortunate to have an English speaking real estate agent on the ground to help me find a place. While the result was not perfect, it worked out OK in the end. I approached the rental agreement by requiring the contract to include:
1) monthly rent
2) term
3) maximum utility cost per month ( or copies of the monthly (or bimonthly ) utility bills for the prior 2 years.
4) monthly condominium charges if any and responsibility for such charges.
5) garbage tax and responsibility..
Be careful with the security deposit and try to work it in as the last month's rent if possible.
My rental was all inclusive except for gas and electric. Longer term leases I have had did not include electric, gas, water and garbage tax. I recommend that you arrange for the landlord to pay any utility bills and that you reimburse the landlord. Putting the utility bills in your name is true torture ( at least in my area). Of course it would be good to have someone on the ground in your prospective neighborhood. You can try https://www.internations.org to make contacts. There are expats in major cities that can be helpful in finding resources for rentals.
I applied for my visa /permesso 3 years ago and was required to have a lease for the length of my visa (1 year). It did not have to be notarized or registered. In applying for the renewal of my permesso, I had to have my lease registered in the Comune. The registration may be a new requirement.
After I obtained my visa and applied for my permesso, things went quite smoothly, once I obtained the knowledge that all things of any value must be obtained from the tobacco shop and / or the post office.

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velvet
11/5/2015 01:05 EST

Thanks everyone for the really helpful advice. I think I am being romantic about Fiesole and it is all because I read the Agony and the Ectasy. I loved we visited Fiesole. I could just see us wandering around the beautiful hills walking to the next town etc. watching the sunset. Luckily I am married to someone who is really practical and points out reality.
Regards
Velvet

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redjeans
11/5/2015 09:30 EST

Umbertomar, I do appreciate and agree with your advice. I would very much like to make some contacts with expats or English speaking realtors on the ground in Bologna. At least Bologna is the plan at this time but not set in stone. After reading so many interesting posts about life in other towns there may be better places to live... I'm just now learning how to use forums to find others who have gone through a move like this. My partner had to show me the ropes!

I registered at internations.org to see if I can find assistance from someone on the ground. That's is what I've been wanting to do but did not know how to do it. Cross your fingers!

I like your advice on what to expect in a contract. I can see that the contracts are not generic. I'll read closely!

Sergios, Velvet, and Jackster Jam, your advice is very appreciated too and funny sometimes! Like Velvet I'm just wondering what's for lunch today, Sergios. And Velvet, have you made a final decision about your move? I too have a partner who thinks realistically and brings things back to reality. Dang him!

Best Regard,
Red Jeans

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redjeans
11/5/2015 09:49 EST

Velvet, I'm learning to have more patience. I REALLY wanted to head to Italy in February but realistically it's not happening. I thought, hey, just rent a place, buy a plane ticket, and go! Ummm, no. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to rent my home in Louisiana for 6 months. Sounds like an easy thing to do, right? No. Do I really want college students drinking wine on my white overstuffed chair? No. Do I want to clear out the entire house for typical renters? No. Do I put it on Craig's List and hope for the best. No. Can I afford to leave it empty? No. Do I wait for a friend or family member who needs a place while they're building or moving or divorcing or something like that? Yes. So...would someone please go through a divorce soon? (hahaha! not really!) So, it's wait time. In the meant time I'm gathering information, researching places to live, learning a little Italian...I'd like to learn ALOT of Italian but it's not easy for this mind of mine!

Again, thanks so much for your posts. I finally found a place to share my thoughts and concerns and hear the challenges others have faced!

Regards!
Red Jeans

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velvet
11/6/2015 02:47 EST

Redjeans - No we haven't made any decisions. We are thinking about "what do we want from the experience" as our first intention was not to live in one particular place in Italy for 12 months. We wanted to live four months in three regions. But this is impossible to do. It has been a great excercise as it really makes you think about what you want. Issues like do we want to live in a small town - no- what size city is too big - north or south- must have good rail links , and all those sorts of things. There is still a lot to sort out with the financials but we are trying to remain calm.lol
We have discovered another option that may suit us but it means only staying in Italy 90 days at a time. Still thinking about that idea.

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Umbertomar
11/6/2015 03:49 EST

Velvet
While I obtained my visa awhile ago, my lease was for one year with an option to terminate after 6 months. The Italian consulate accepted this lease as OK and issued the visa and I was granted a 2 year permesso based upon this lease. You could run this by your Italian consulate, if it would be OK, you could have such a lease, If so, you could exercise the option and move around as you wished. A note of caution, Italian immigration is quite busy at the moment (depending on Provence) due to the migrant situation and delays are being regularly encountered.

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velvet
11/6/2015 04:15 EST

Umbertomar Three things the Italian consulate is fananatical on here in Canberra when applyin for the visa (not permesso)
1. A lease for 12 months
2. Substantial savings
3.Health Insurance
Yes we would try and get a lease with that get out clause.
The Italian Consulate is not prepared to say how much substantial savings are, or was not aware of Australia's repciprocal health agreement with Italy (for 6 months you are covered. I am a little confused and midly annoyed (read that as a lot annoyed) with the what they don't seem to know.
I received this great verbal message from them the other day passed on by a colleague when he was asked by the staffer at the Italian Consulate how his friend was getting on with the process. When he mentioned the tax issue he replied
"Italian Tax for foreigners big problem
Italian Tax for Italians big problem
Italian Tax for Italy bigger problem" Apparently advice given with a shrug of the shoulders, hands thrown up in the air and a big smile.
Oh well at least they are happy when they give advice.

Thanks for all your information anyway

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JacksterJam
11/6/2015 22:31 EST

Hi Velvet. I've been pondering the issue of the rental contract that you must provide to the Italian Consulate in Canberra. A thought was sparked in my mind after reading Umbertomar's comment. Italian law requires rental contracts to have a notice to vacate clause included in the contract; the standard is six months. Upon agreement between the owner and the renter, that six-month notice to vacate can be altered. For example, if both parties agree upon a three-month notice to vacate, that is allowable under law. Since the Italian Consulate in Canberra is requiring a 12-month rental agreement, my question to them would be this: if Italian law requires that a notice to vacate clause be included in the rental agreement, how can they not accept a rental contract that includes such? You should be able to have written into your 12-month contract a clause that includes a notice to vacate time frame of whatever length you and the owner agree upon.

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velvet
11/7/2015 00:25 EST

Ah Jackster, Can you please fly to Australia and come and argue the point in Italian with them.lol
Yes I agree. Hopefully they won't notice the get out clause. I am not convinced that they will read the actuall lease to see if it meets their criteria. I am also going to argue the point that other non eu citizens have had leases for only three months.
I have had someone offer me a lease in a very small village an hour from Milan for visa purpose and then when we arrive go to where we want to be find a rental and as long as we lodge for permesso after 8 days upon arrival then that should be ok.
Be happy for your thoughts on that scenario.

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Umbertomar
11/7/2015 02:37 EST

Hi Velvet, I can only give you my situation which occurred with the Italian consulate in the US. I considered my financial risk to be that if I entered into a one year lease : 1. If I was not granted a visa for 1 year, I would be stuck with paying for a year, and 2. If there was a problem getting a permesso, I would have to leave and be stuck paying for the full year. Further, I was not sure I wanted a full 12 months. My lease was a for a full year and did not take effect until I was granted a visa,. The lease terminated if I was not granted a permesso for any reason. I could terminate the lease after 6 months with 3 month notice. I assembled all my required documents, including the lease, submitted, them to the Italian Consulate and the visa was granted. If the visa was not granted, then I had no lease obligation. Also, with respect to health insurance, I bought a 1 year policy that could be canceled at anytime with a pro rata refund.
I did not consult the Italian Consulate before submitting the visa request. I reviewed the requirements on the web site and considered my approach to be compliant with the requirements.

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JacksterJam
11/7/2015 03:00 EST

Hi Velvet.

I personally wouldn't sign any legal document, including a rental contract, upon a verbal agreement that no attempt to enforce it will be made.

Also, when you say "as long as we lodge for permesso after 8 days upon arrival then that should be ok," are you referring to after arriving there, or after you find an apartment in an area you prefer? If you are referring to not applying until after you've found a place in a town/city that you prefer, I can't imagine going to another town/city, finding an available apartment (it can take a week just to get an appointment to see a place), securing a contract, getting it in hand (which can take several days in itself), filling out and submitting the paperwork for the Permesso all within eight days. Depending on which city/town you decide on, I'd say it would take a minimum of two weeks to get all of that done, and that is if you find a place you like immediately after arrival.

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Sergios
11/7/2015 03:01 EST

For what it's worth, the Italian consulates tend to be staffed by the worst of the worst bureaucratic idiots. But I mean that in a nice way. The point is, once you get passed them, once your passport is stamped by immigration, the consulate no longer has anything to do with you. You are now in the capable (see definition of sarcasm) hands of the commune and questura. Both these agencies are overworked (according to them) but, unlike the consulate, they are actually helpful, at times. If you can get a phony lease that can get you past the Consolato, go for it. Just keep in mind that you will need a real one when you apply for residency and the permesso. That gives you only 8 days to make an alignment. You will not need the actual lease in hand until you are interviewed at the commune, which can take weeks (2 months in my case). Sorry for the ramble. I am now waiting for four months for a simple letter from the Italian consulate in Caracas. The letter could be written in the time it takes them to smoke a cigarette. Incompetence is rampant. Have patience above all else.

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JacksterJam
11/7/2015 03:04 EST

Hi Sergios. As we know, it all depends upon who one encounters at each step of the process. When I applied for my first Permesso di Soggiorno, they required that a copy of my rental contract be included. When I renewed, they did not. Crazy stuff, eh?

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Sergios
11/7/2015 03:16 EST

One more piece of advise. You do not need your own apartment. You can cohabitate. You can live with somebody that has an extra room. Rental contracts of these types are acceptable. So if you have friends, you can take that option.

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velvet
11/7/2015 16:36 EST

The property is owned by a work colleague who offered the lease just for visa purposes and I would not be held to it as such. However things can and do end up being more difficult than they seem sometimes.
Another learning curve about taking a week to get an appointment to see a place. I was in my Australian mindset that if you see a property for rent you can just ring the agent and go and have a look at it. A poster on another forum thought I had to get rid of my "anglo saxon mindset" to live in Italy. The more I learn the more I am coming closer to his view.
Thanks as always for the valuable info provided by you all.
Regards

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Sergios
11/8/2015 01:15 EST

Also keep in mind that wherever you choose to live, with respect to the permesso di sogiorno, you will have to hangout there at least a month waiting for Vigili to come visit you to comfirm your residence. Don't listen to people who say that a "door man" or a neighbor can vouch for you. You must be there with your documents when the man from the police station calls on you.
That's one reason that a small community is better than a city. To establish residency.

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JacksterJam
11/8/2015 01:50 EST

Sergios, I don't believe they come to verify one's residence for the Permesso di Soggiorno; that was not part of the process that I encountered. The Comune does that when one registers residency with them after the Permesso has been granted.

As far as small vs. big cities, here is what happened in my case in Florence (a sizable city). After I finally had the Permesso di Soggiorno in hand (which took 4 months to get), I took that to the Comune to register residency. After two weeks, I received a letter from the Comune stating that my registration was on file and the police would be coming by to verify where I lived. After waiting a week for that, I went back to the Comune and asked for a Carta d'Identita anyway (I needed the ID card to open a bank account and wanted to do that ASAP). They issued an ID card to me with no problem. About a week later, the police finally showed up (at 7 a.m.) to verify my physical place of residence. He asked to see my Permesso to verify my identity, and that was it.

The fact that they issued me a Carta I'dentita before the police verified where I lived is just another example of "it depends on who one encounters at the office in question." lol

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Sergios
11/8/2015 02:18 EST

Yes, Jacksterdam, I did conflate. My case is a bit different. I came to Palermo with intent to have my citizenship recognized. I did not need to apply for a permesso, just for my residency and my citizenship recognition. What a joke! I first went to the StatoCivile anagrafa and was told that I needed to go to the citizenship office. I did and was told that I qualify but all I still needed was a letter from the Italian consulate in Caracas verifying that my father was still Italian at my birth. (I handed her such a letter but she insisted it had to come directly to her). I asked about the permesso di sogiorno and was told it was not necessary. I applied anyway, just in case.
Three months later I visited the office to find out what was the delay and was told they had not received the letter yet. So I asked about getting residency so that I can get a car and they said that I need to go to the anagrafa for that. I did and was yelled at by her (same woman that told me to go to the other office in the first place). I was supposed to go to her first before anything else. I needed to go get all of my original docs from the other office (opposite sides of the city) and have her review all of them. Once she was done she looked at the stamp on my passport and said its been 3 months. "You are going to have to leave Italy!"
Fortunately I had applied for the permesso and had the receipt.
The vigili visit was in association with residency, which I got but still can not get my ID because the permesso has not come thru (delayed because of a boat load of African migrants). So, at this point I have no permesso, no citizenship, no I'd, and a brand new, fully paid for, car that I cannot get registered because I need an id. You need patience in Italy. And the Caracas consulate has still not sent the letter. It's going on 5 months.

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JacksterJam
11/8/2015 02:31 EST

Sergios, I'm interested to know what the office in Caracas has to say about why it is taking them so long! It also sounds like that woman in Palermo needs an "attitude adjustment!" Have you thought of trying to get this done in another city? The folks in Palermo don't sound very efficient. Ha! Look at what I just wrote! Are they efficient in any city? But, seriously, you might have a better chance of getting this done someplace other than Palermo. Perhaps someone in another city would accept your copy of the letter from Caracas verifying your father's citizenship. As a matter of fact, I understood that when one is claiming citizenship, all the documents must be submitted by the applicant at the same time, which would mean that your copy of the letter should be sufficient. Truly, I'd try working with someone in a different city!

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Sergios
11/8/2015 02:46 EST

As far as Caracas, they don't need a reason. As for as going to a different city, that would be very difficult. It would entail starting completely from the beginning. I would lose several months of headway. I would need to establish residency in the new location before I could apply for the citizenship.
I should have my permesso by next week. It was mailed from Rome last week. With the permesso in hand, the citizenship process can take its time.
My suggestion to others is, however, go to a small community first. I went to Palermo because I thought they would have a bigger infrastructure in place. They don't. There is one anagrafa, and one citizenship officer. They have staff but there is just one of each. My citizenship officer stubbed her toe two weeks ago. She is still out sick. Time for an espresso.

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Umbertomar
11/8/2015 03:10 EST

Sergios,
I approached my situation,( which I was not sure about) by hiring an Italian lawyer. I got a reference from the US Consulate in Rome (on line). I wanted to renew my permesso and was not sure I would be in Italy when it would be issued. The lawyer was to be the contact point if I were not in Italy. The lawyer advised me of the necessary documents ( some of which needed a certified translation) and the application was submitted. In the meantime, a new Commissioner was appointed and the mass migration got into full swing. As we all know, the requirements are somewhat variable, and my application application was rejected and a document legalized by the US Consulate was required, due to the new Commissioner. I was out of Italy at the time of the rejection. The Questura contacted my lawyer and advised him of the requirement. I fulfilled the requirement. My renewed permessio is on its way ( I hope). As a point of information. I have bought a car, scooter and done many other things with an expired permesso. The documents needed to do such things (including health insurance renewal) are the expired permesso, identity card, and post office receipts.
I have been waiting 6 months for the new permesso, if it takes a year, the renewal after this next one will be for 5 years.

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velvet
11/8/2015 03:17 EST

Sergious A lot of your posts make me laugh and make me want to open a bottle of wine.
What happens if you are out when the police come around. I have heard that they can leave a card but am not sure if this is the case.
One thing I will give you all credit for is not giving up. Not sure if we have the stamina.

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JacksterJam
11/8/2015 03:20 EST

Ha! My prescription is to go to the nearest gelateria after an encounter with anyone in a government office, but coffee works as well. The plus side of being in a larger city with a bigger staff is that if one person says "No," one can go back the next day and speak to someone else who might say, "Yes." Ha! Gotta love it!

I'm curious about the requirement that you establish residency before applying for citizenship. How are folks who do not reside in Italy able to get citizenship?

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Sergios
11/8/2015 03:39 EST

I missed the first visit. He came back the next day. I was lucky it took just two weeks. One thing that helps here in the Deep South is that pranzo super edges all else. So you can be sure that they won't come between 14 and 16.

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JacksterJam
11/8/2015 03:41 EST

Umbertomar, perhaps you can clarify something for me. As I understand the long-term permesso situation, the only thing one has to do, as least at this point (who knows what they will require down the road), is to submit new photographs every five years. Submitting renewal "paperwork"and supporting documents is not required.

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Sergios
11/8/2015 03:42 EST

Umbertomar
My situation is a bit different because this is my first permesso. The expired permit with the post office receipt is as good as a current one. I don't have that luxury.

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JacksterJam
11/8/2015 03:46 EST

Sergios, so true! As does "coffee break" time! I've sat at the Questura in Florence for hours waiting to be helped (me and a couple of hundred other people). They have 18 sportelli all of which close down at 11:oo for the morning coffee, and again at 13:00 for lunch. Staggering worker coffee/lunch time doesn't seem to be a concept well-received in Italy! lol

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Sergios
11/8/2015 03:55 EST

I wish this site allowed photos. My wife, dog and I are sitting at a table on the beach having cornetti and espresso. It's sunny and 70 degrees and the water of Mondello bay is limpid and blue.
There 2 ways to get ones citizenship recognized, as opposed to reinstated. First way is by going to the idiots at the Italian consulate in your home country. The other way is to establish residency in Italy. That is the key, residency. You can only apply if you are a resident of the community, be it Palermo or da Bronx.

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JacksterJam
11/8/2015 04:08 EST

Umbertomar, here's a snafu a friend of mine encountered. Because of the new requirements and the delay it has caused when renewing one's Permesso, one can't fly in or out of another Schengen country with the post office renewal receipt. A friend of mine has been waiting for his renewed Permesso forever. When he tried to fly home to visit family, his connections were through another Schengen country (Austria), and they would not let him board the plane with his post office receipt. One can fly in and out of Italy with the receipt, but not on a flight that connects in a Schengen country. I don't know how stringent other Schengen countries are being, but I also know of someone who had the same problem trying to connect through Germany with a post office renewal receipt. She raised "hell," but their response was simply, "As it stands, you have an expired Permesso di Soggiorno and the post office receipt is no guarantee that the Italian government will issue you a new one." Of course, both people had paid for their tickets and could not get a refund.

Folks wanting to fly in or out of Italy while waiting for their Permesso renewal to be completed should be aware that they should not make flight arrangements that connect through another Schengen country. These aren't Italy's rules; they are Schengen rules.

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JacksterJam
11/8/2015 04:13 EST

Thanks for the clarification, Sergios.

We're enjoying a beautiful fall in Florence, as well; lots of sunny days and warm temperatures. While I don't live on the water, the river is just a few minutes away by foot and it has been lovely to walk down and have a coffee and "brioche" at one of the bars located on the river bank.

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Umbertomar
11/8/2015 06:51 EST

I think this is correct, but not 100% sure.

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Umbertomar
11/8/2015 06:58 EST

This was in response to the long term permesso- probably only photos, for whatever a maybe is worth

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Umbertomar
11/8/2015 06:58 EST

This was in response to the long term permesso- probably only photos, for whatever a maybe is worth

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Umbertomar
11/8/2015 07:20 EST

This is really good info on flying in and out of Italy.. I normally use my US Passport and have no problems. If there is an issue of how long I have been in Italy, I show my Identity card (which has an expiration date of 2023), which has worked. If they had dug deeper. I may have been in trouble. I will keep this in mind.
On a couple other recent posts, the local police have always called me to make an appointment for the residence visit. In fact, the first time I applied for residence, I was eager to get it done and got the telephone number of the officer and called him.. He came the next day.
So in the end this was not so smart. Bear in mind that your US (non-EU or non-test ) drivers license is good for one year from your residence date. If you do not need the residence status to buy a car or get health insurance, delay the residence until you need it. This driving test regimen is not easy for a non Italian speaker. Moreover, it is a two step process, first you must pass the theory test, given only in Italian, the second step is the road test that can only be scheduled after you pass the theory test. Without getting into the details, you must have 12 hours of road instruction. Depending on where you are and what is going on, it may take at least 2 weeks (with great luck) up to 2 months to actually take the test. If you pass you get your license on the spot.

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Sergios
11/10/2015 04:07 EST

So JacksterJam, you asked what the Caracas consulate had to say about the delay. The idiots at the consulate, it turns out, never got the request. I was unduly hard on them. It turns out that the other idiot, the agent at the Palermo Stato Civile, never sent them the request although she said that she sent it certified email back in July. She recently said that if she does not get a response from Caracas it is not her responsibility to followup. Anyway, I can't do anything today because she is out sick, again.

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JacksterJam
11/10/2015 07:56 EST

Sergios, my first reaction was "Ouch!" However I've had things take as long as six months when sending something internationally from Italy to arrive at it's destination.

Do you plan to stay in Palermo after you finally get your Permesso? Would it be worth it to visit the State Civile in another city to see what they say regarding what you need to do to get your citizenship ball rolling? Perhaps they might take your copy of the document????

Might be worth a shot.

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Sergios
11/10/2015 08:16 EST

Not really an option because residency has to be established before all else. I've reached out, using friends of friends, and got a meeting with the head of the department. I'll see where that goes.

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velvet
11/11/2015 04:34 EST

Good luck Sergios.

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Sergios
11/11/2015 04:41 EST

Thank you Velvet. Things seem to be moving. The people at the Italian consulate in Caracas are making themselves available, going so far as giving me a direct phone number, so that the Stato Civile here can talk to them and circumventing the long, drawn out procedures. I should know something in the next few days.

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biketrekker
11/13/2015 17:30 EST

I am going through the same aggravation.

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giuseppenero
12/6/2015 20:39 EST

From where are you arriving that requires a visa and "permesso di soggiorno? And why do you want to live in Italy?

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giuseppenero
12/6/2015 20:44 EST

Grande. And even if they can afford it, they should avoid Italy anyway, for their sanity.

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giuseppenero
12/6/2015 20:46 EST

A Chinese or Russian

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giuseppenero
12/6/2015 20:55 EST

Want to live in Italy? I hope your skin is not so soft as velvet

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velvet
12/7/2015 00:37 EST

Give it a rest. If you want to troll and have a good argument I suggest you go on to the fodors forum where you will get a long drawn out argument. All of us on this forum are to happy with our lot in life to believe anything you say.
Try and have a good day. Life is too short to be that miserable.

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biketrekker
12/7/2015 10:13 EST

I live in Akron, Ohio. I want to live in Conversano(BA). My parents emigrated from there. I have many cousins there. I have a strong identification with my Italian heritage. I am retired and want to enjoy the climate and the culture in my declining years. I would like to find an inexpensive studio apartment, basic living space. Willing to be out of town a ways to get cheap rent. I have a small pension.

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JacksterJam
12/7/2015 12:03 EST

biketrekker, I have sent you a private message; please check your inbox.

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lindanoto
12/8/2015 14:04 EST

You will not regret , don't listen to that whiner

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Sergios
12/8/2015 14:49 EST

Giuseppe, has contributed here even though his style is less than ideal. Specifically the process of italianization is not all pleasant. During that process you will be meeting several assholes (people who are arrogant enough to believe that they are correct when they are completely wrong). These people will cause you delays, cost you money and frustration. The way to fight this is to have knowledge on your side. That takes work and time and making that effort will test your true desire to do what you're doing. It's okay to have a dream but you must remain with your feet planted to earth. Giuseppe has pointed out features of Italian life that he finds defective. Some of us look at those same things as charms. Those charms may get old and stale in the future. Just know your minds well and truly analyze your dreams.

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Sergios
12/8/2015 14:49 EST

Giuseppe, has contributed here even though his style is less than ideal. Specifically the process of italianization is not all pleasant. During that process you will be meeting several assholes (people who are arrogant enough to believe that they are correct when they are completely wrong). These people will cause you delays, cost you money and frustration. The way to fight this is to have knowledge on your side. That takes work and time and making that effort will test your true desire to do what you're doing. It's okay to have a dream but you must remain with your feet planted to earth. Giuseppe has pointed out features of Italian life that he finds defective. Some of us look at those same things as charms. Those charms may get old and stale in the future. Just know your minds well and truly analyze your dreams.

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velvet
12/9/2015 02:59 EST

Sergious- You always give wise advice.
Regards

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