Expat Exchange
Free MembershipSign In

Italy Expat Forum

Answering your questions from my previous post so you can help me further

New Topic Newest First
NurseBella1
  3/24/2019 22:12 EST

Hi, Everyone. Thank you so much for all your replies. So, i want to answer all your questions so you can further assist me, since most of you had questions for me. So, i will be useing my father as the bloodline relative and yes i qualify. I am an American citizen and live in the USA at the moment. Ok, so here are my questions #1- My friend who is on SSDI will they have to pay taxes to the Italian Government, in America they do not because it is not earned income? #2 - I will not be a Nurse in Italy, i will do online work being paid by an American Company, will i have to pay taxes to the Italian Government? #3- Do i need a Visa BEFORE i go to Italy since i may be staying more than 3 months to process my documents? #4- Do i apply for the 'Permesso DiSogiorno' once i arrive in Italy within 8 days? And , can i keep renewing the 'Permesso ds' till it hits 5 years than apply for perm resident in Italy? #5- Can i get a Dual Citizenship after the 5 year residence or i can get the dual citizenship right away? #6- If i do not want to get a Dual Citizenship can i live in Italy forever just with the Permesso di s??#7- Do i need atleast $30k , in the bank for Permesso Di S OR Dual Citizenship? #8- Do i need a rental house or Apartment & show proof of it with the Permesso di S OR Dual Citizenship? I need a rental and proof of it no matter which route i choose to go, dual citizen or permesso di s ?? #9- Will they keep my fathers ORIGINAL birth certificate or do i just show them the original and give them a copy? #10- Last but not least, where do i get all these documents in Italy for Permesso di S , and Dual citizenship? And the reason i want to process all my documents in Italy is because there is a 2.5 year wait in Chicago Consolate. Thanks everyone in advance.

Sergios
  3/25/2019 03:06 EST

OK, here is the deal. You, having italian blood by direct ancestry, have a right to enter italy for purpose of regaining your citizenship if you lost it or having your citizenship recognized if you did not lose it. The process simply involves entering the country on a tourist visa and then applying for a permesso di soggiorno on the grounds of citizenship. Once you have done that you will apply for residency. There are many posts on those subjects, but basically the sequence is that you get your PdiS, apply for residency, apply for citizenship. Each is dependent on the other. The process takes a few months. You will be allowed to work once you've achieved these goals however if you do online work you could probably continue to do that while waiting. You will be liable for Italian taxes but don't forget what you will be getting for that, including full healthcare for about 500 euro a year. No, you will not need to prove income. The problems I see involve your friend, that you provided no information about. If you are married or are in a civil relation, your friend has a right to be with you. He/she could also apply for PdiS and residency and healthcare. His/Her taxes will be based on the amount of income. However, if he/she is just a friend, there is the rub. That person, unless also an italian descendant, has to go through the visa process and based on your description, is not likely to get one.

GeoBlueGeoBlue
Get Quote

GeoBlue is a trusted leader in international health insurance. Wherever your destination, GeoBlue can keep you and your family covered with the right health insurance. Get a GeoBlue Quote Today!

GeoBlueGeoBlue

GeoBlue is a trusted leader in international health insurance. Wherever your destination, GeoBlue can keep you and your family covered with the right health insurance. Get a GeoBlue Quote Today!
Get Quote

rsetzer99
  3/25/2019 04:11 EST

What Sergio said...... Amend my PM to you about Permesso. Your process for Permesso is a little different from the rest of us Yanks as you won't need the same stack of paper. Again, I am not positive, but I think Social Security Disability will not be taxed by Italy. One thing I would add is that because you are finding the process daunting, you will want to have someone by your side who speaks Italian and English when you are here in Italy.

maluza86
  3/25/2019 04:20 EST

One point of clarification based on question #6 "If i do not want to get a Dual Citizenship can i live in Italy forever just with the Permesso di s?"

The short answer is no. Plus you will have to get a visa to enter Italy if you do not have intention to acquire your citizenship. In your case I do not see any benefits to NOT acquiring your citizenship.

With regard to your friend, as Sergio mentioned, we need more info to give advice.

comolake
  3/25/2019 21:00 EST

My husband is DE EU and we lived in IT in 2010 for one year. I had a Carta di Soggiorno, good for 5 five years compared to permesso di soggiorno good for one year or at least it used to be as of 2011. It took us about 9 months to get it my Carta DS. . I needed to have an Apostille of our marriage certificate as well as our marriage application and translated into Italian. I agree that we need more info to advise on your friend. My Carta says the reason for my CDS is family by marriage. My advice is that whatever you can do in the States, do it. As we had to have quite a few documents translated after we landed in IT. On a side note...unfortunately for us, we returned to the US, lost my CDS and now ready to return to start the entire process all over again....can't wait!

NurseBella1
  3/25/2019 23:15 EST

Sergios, Thank you so much. I have a few more questions. #1- Do i need to have Health Insurance in Italy while i process my Permesso Disogiorno? If not will i need it when applying for my Dual Citizenship? ( BTW, what do they call the Dual Citizenship in Italy? #2- How do i know its time to apply for the Dual Citizenship, who notifies me? #3- Will they keep my fathers original birth certificate? If so where do i obtain my fathers birth certificate? ( He gave me his original) Do they accept certified copies? #4- When i have apply for the Permesso DiSorgiorno do i need to have a rented apartment or house? If not do i need to rent a place while applying for Dual Citizenship? #5-So you said with the Permesso DiSiorgorno i will not have to prove income?? Thank you!

GeoBlueGeoBlue
Get Quote

GeoBlue is a trusted leader in international health insurance. Wherever your destination, GeoBlue can keep you and your family covered with the right health insurance. Get a GeoBlue Quote Today!

GeoBlueGeoBlue

GeoBlue is a trusted leader in international health insurance. Wherever your destination, GeoBlue can keep you and your family covered with the right health insurance. Get a GeoBlue Quote Today!
Get Quote

NurseBella1
  3/25/2019 23:18 EST

Thank you rsetzergg. I speak a little Italian but i would feel so much better haveing an interpreter. Do you recommened any good translating companies in Italy? Thank you!

NurseBella1
  3/25/2019 23:19 EST

Maluza86, Thank you & yes you are correct on that.

NurseBella1
  3/25/2019 23:26 EST

Comolake-Thank you. Ok, so i can apply for Carta DiSogiorno instead of Permesso DiS? As far as my friend they decided they will be living by themselves, not with me. They will be useing their mother as bloodline. So my friend is on SSDI, will they have to pay taxes to the Italian government , i know in the USA they do not. So with the carta di s OR permesso di S , will they have to pay taxes on their SSDI? Thank you!

Sergios
  3/26/2019 06:40 EST

You are not applying for dual citizenship. You are applying to have your Italian citizenship recognized or reinstated. Your father's birth certificate, if he was born in Italy, will be submitted to the comune along with the other documents. They will in turn provide you with a new one issued by the commune. Same with your birth certificate and all other needed documents. You will also be issued a citizenship certificate. If you want the original birth certificate you need to go to the place that it was originally issued. that can be done online in most cases. You should try to get a place to live that will provide you with a non transient rental contract for at least a year. That will come in handy. When you get your permesso, you then apply for residency (you will need that contract then). At the same time you apply for residency you can apply for health coverage from the state. You may want to consider getting health insurance up to that point if you have health concerns. Otherwise doctor visits cost around 50 euro. I don't think you will be required to prove you have it. Back to the birth certificate, any document that does not originate in Europe must be apostiled, legally translated. Make sure you understand the document requirements. I cannot stress this enough. You don't want to be rejected because you don't have the right ones.

maluza86
  3/26/2019 06:41 EST

NurseBella,

There is no carta di soggiorno it has been replaced with the permesso di soggiorno UE per soggiornanti di lungo periodo. Now that's a mouth full.

Either way, it's not applicable in your case, it is for non-Italians. Comolake is like me - married to an EU Citizen. In my case I am married to an Italian and I applied for a permesso di soggiorno motivi familiare when I came over in 2014. A PdiS motivi familiare is granted for 5 years. I just renewed my PdiS and am waiting to pick it up. Once I pick it up, I will apply for the PdiS Lungo Periodo as have now resided in Italy over 5 years.

After resident for 5 years one can apply for the PdiS lungo periodo which grants permanent residence to a non Italian (EU) citizen.

Again, in your case, you are seeking Italian citizenship, so you will be an Italian (or dual national).

You will apply for the PdiS as Sergio mentioned then go through the process to acquire your Italian citizenship and get an Italian passport so you will not have to worry about any PdiS afterwards.

Since you are seeking to acquire your citizenship through bloodlines you do not have to prove any income.

You will need though to have all your official documents (birth certificates, etc) if not written in Italian translated and apostilled (authenticated and fixed with a seal by an official of the State) before going to Italy.

As an Italian citizen you do not fall under the dual taxation treaty.

Italy taxes all world-wide income if you live and reside in Italy as an Italian citizen.

The dual taxation treaty is for non-Italian citizens. It ensures non-Italian citizens do not get taxed in the country of their citizenship and country of residence (in this case Italy).

GeoBlueGeoBlue
Get Quote

GeoBlue is a trusted leader in international health insurance. Wherever your destination, GeoBlue can keep you and your family covered with the right health insurance. Get a GeoBlue Quote Today!

GeoBlueGeoBlue

GeoBlue is a trusted leader in international health insurance. Wherever your destination, GeoBlue can keep you and your family covered with the right health insurance. Get a GeoBlue Quote Today!
Get Quote

Sergios
  3/26/2019 06:49 EST

Get a real Codice Fiscale as soon as possible, either when you get to Italy or through the consulate. You will need it. So will your friend.

rsetzer99
  3/26/2019 07:58 EST

You will absolutely want a consultation with an international tax accountant. A quick look suggests that, depending on your level of disability, you may be entitled to Italian payments.

NurseBella1
  3/26/2019 09:42 EST

Thank you, Sergios. You are being an amazeing help! I do have a few other questions. #1-I do have my fathers original birth certificate to submit, do they keep the original, or?? The reason i ask is he does not want them to lose his birth cert. If they do keep it, you mentioned i can order it online? Can you give me those details please? Also can i request it from his commune where he was born or do he have to? #2- When will i know my Permesso DiS is ready? #3- Even if i am working for an American Company, and work online, will i have to pay taxes? #4- What do i need the Codice Fiscal for if i wont be paying taxes to the Italian Gov.?? And how do i get it if i need it?? #5- Once getting my Permesso DiS, and apply for residency, how many days will they give me to rent an apt. Or house? #6- Once an Italian citizen do i have to live and stay in Italy or can i also live in America, or go back & forth? Thank you in advance!

NurseBella1
  3/26/2019 09:48 EST

Hi, Maluza86. Thank you so much for all your help. So, i am happy i do not have to prove my income with the PdiS or Italian Residency. I am also happy that i do not have to pay taxes. Thanks again.

NurseBella1
  3/26/2019 09:53 EST

Hi, rsetzergg. Thank you for all your help. It is my friend who is on SSDI. So my friend may be able to claim disability in Italy as well? Who would they speak to about this, a disability attorney, or who? Thanks in adavance!

maluza86
  3/26/2019 10:16 EST

Hello NurseBella,

I am glad you are getting some assistance. Much of what you are asking has been discussed on this forum and if you do a search you will find the answers.

I am not sure where you got the notion you will not have to pay taxes to the Italian government. All Italians pay taxes. If you work, you most certainly will have a tax burden.

Italy taxes your world-wide income when you are a citizen and reside in Italy. It does not matter where or how you earn it. If you are a citizen and resident in Italy, any and all income you earn, whether it's in the US, Japan, Australia, Czechoslovakia, over the internet, etc, you get the gist...will be taxed by the Italian authorities.

As for SSDI, and trying to get disability in Italy, it is very complicated.

My wife has been trying for 4 years now. It is not like in the US, where you submit several times, hire a lawyer, they take their 25% then magically you get approved.

Italy would not even accept my wife's disabled parking permit. They said it was not universal and she needed to get an Italian one...she is still trying.

Your friend will need to come prepared with medical records, and the process will start with their local doctor. Afterward (months), he/she will be scheduled to meet with a board of physicians and they will ask a whole bunch of questions and "visibly" look your friend over to "determine" their level of disability.

Afterwards, he/she will get assigned a % of disability. If it gets over a certain number (75% I think, but don't quote me on that one), they then will get awarded payments from the Italian government.

It is a long and complicated process. It is not as easy as arriving, showing your US disability and hoping Italy reciprocates.

They will need to start from square one and prove their disability to the Italian medical system.

I am not trying to dissuade them or anyone else from trying. I am just presenting the facts so someone does not plan to rely on receiving Italian disability as a source of income initially.

maluza86
  3/26/2019 10:22 EST

Let me answer a few more questions for you:

#2- When will i know my Permesso DiS is ready? The questura will text you it is ready and to come and pick it up.

#3- Even if i am working for an American Company, and work online, will i have to pay taxes? YES

#4- What do i need the Codice Fiscal for if i wont be paying taxes to the Italian Gov.?? And how do i get it if i need it?? You cannot do anything in Italy without a codice fiscale, and I mean anything. You can get it online.

#5- Once getting my Permesso DiS, and apply for residency, how many days will they give me to rent an apt. Or house? You cannot get residency without a permanent place to live....they will come to your house and check to see if you are there and that you have a valid rental contract or that you own the house. You will need to show that to apply for residency.

#6- Once an Italian citizen do i have to live and stay in Italy or can i also live in America, or go back & forth? Thank you in advance! As an Italian you are free to go and live wherever you like. However if you leave Italy and plan to establish residency outside the country you need to register in AIRE.

Sergios
  3/26/2019 10:42 EST

Thanks Maluza88, I took out my laptop because I didn't want to have to write a treatise on my phone but you beat me to it.
Let me add that this discussion is based on a lack of knowledge of the process. Which is understandable since it is so complicated and foreign to the american experience. As has been said several times, this has all been discussed several times, in depth. You may not find it immediately and you may have to do some reading, but please do. There are many topics besides what you are are asking about that you will see if you do the reading. It will help you to read this forum. Try to understand what youre reading and then if you have questions feel free to ask. The Italian bureaucracy is the original and still the most bureaucratic. After 5 years I am still amazed how convoluted it is. I moved to France and registered my italian car in france by going to a mechanics shop, giving him my id and insurance information and he got me plates in 15 minutes. Then I had to return my italian plates that required me having to give a power of attorney to my cousin in italy plus send him originals of several documents so that he could go to the office and wait 3 hours to even see somebody to take the plates. And then there is the driving license bullsh!t that italy puts you through. These things and others are important for you to know and all could be found in the forum so start searching and taking notes. Please.

Sergios
  3/26/2019 10:48 EST

One more thing. It cost me several thousand dollars to get my original birth certificate from venezuela. I had to hire an attorney in Caracas to navigate their bureaucracy so I can get an apostilled original. That original was handed to a functionary in Palermo never to be seen again. Instead I received a green document that showed that my birth was registered in the city of palermo. The green document is readily available by going to the city hall and paying 15 euros should I need another copy and it is usable anywhere in europe.
And, yes going to the town where your father was born you can get a birth certificate replacement.

DancerCassandra
  3/26/2019 11:15 EST

Thank you, Maluza86. Sorry, this is so complicated, and i am trying to understand it all. One further question, does my friend who is on SSDI from America they are getting SSDI, do they need to pay taxes in Italy on their SSDI payments every month? In America they do not pay taxes as it is not an earned income, so they do not file taxes. So how about in Italy if they are on SSDI?

DancerCassandra
  3/26/2019 11:20 EST

Thanks again, Maluza86. So my friend who is on SSDI in America will they need a Codice Fiscal? (Again they dont pay taxes in America on SSDI-Social Security Disability) . So even if they on SSDI do not have to pay Italian taxes they will need a Codice Fiscal?

NurseBella1
  3/26/2019 11:27 EST

DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW DANCERCASSANDRA GOT ON MY ACCOUNT?? I REPLIED TO MALUZA86 AND SOME RANDOM NAME CAME UP WITH DANCERCASSANDRA?? IS THIS A NETWORK ISSUE?

NurseBella1
  3/26/2019 11:40 EST

Hi, Maluza86, I have no idea who DancerCassandra is , LOL, is it a network issue? I was responding to you and some other name is on there? ANYWAYS, can you answer that please where mysteriously DancerCassandra name is?? LOL

almare2
  3/26/2019 11:49 EST

As was said before, you (and your friend) will need a codice fiscale to do anything in Italy: rent an apartment, sign up for a cell phone plan, and so on. It's not just for paying taxes.

Sergios
  3/26/2019 11:53 EST

This is an open forum available to anybody who logs in.

maluza86
  3/26/2019 13:14 EST

As far as I know SSDI is not reported nor taxed in Italy.

But please remember to seek any tax advice from an Italian Commercialista who specializes in these areas.

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 00:04 EST

Maluza86-Thank you.

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 00:08 EST

Maluza86-Hi Maluza86, if i live in the United States year round after getting my Italian citizenship, will i still have to pay the Italian government taxes? I know i have to apply for AIRE if i am out of Italy more than 12 months. Where do i apply for AIRE? Thanks inadvance.

maluza86
  3/27/2019 01:02 EST

You are most welcome.

I am not sure about not paying taxes as an Italian citizen living abroad as I am not an Italian citizen. I am sure you can research that one online or as I mentioned before contact a commercialista who specializes in those areas.

Here is the link for AIRE:
https://www.esteri.it/mae/en/servizi/italiani-all-estero/aire_0.html

mchaves
  3/27/2019 02:17 EST

Usually, one pays taxes where the money is made, that's the rule. I know USA has different rules in this regard but usually that's how it works. I have an Italian citizenship and know other people that do too... and they never paid a cent to Italian government while working overseas.

Sergios
  3/27/2019 03:15 EST

No, you don't once you remove yourself from the residency roles, AIRE. You also lose your health coverage.

rsetzer99
  3/27/2019 04:09 EST

No, you will not have to pay Italian taxes so long as you are a tax resident of the United States. The US is one of only two countries in the world that taxes its citizens no matter where they live and/or work. You will want to look into social security taxes as I believe you have some options available as an Italian citizen as to which country those go to,

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 06:52 EST

Thanks again, Maluza86.

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 07:07 EST

Hi, mchaves. This is why this is all so confuseing. I was told by many people , 50% say, yes, you do have to pay the taxes to the Italian Government if your an Italian Citizen, and 50% say no you do not. I am working for an American Company online and get paid in American currency. Would I have to pay taxes to the Italian Government if i am an Italian Citizen ( in the future) with earnings made in America? This is where all this gets soooo confuseing. I tried calling the Italian Consulate in Chicago, IL my jurisdiction for the state i live in currently to try to ask this question by phone and i have literally tried for 3 months straight and NOBODY answers that phone. Then i tried sending numerous emails and NOBODY responds. I live about 18 hours drive from Chicago, this is just crazy that we cannot get service through the phone or email with this Consulate. Also what is your opinion on SSDI? (Social Security disability) Does my friend need to pay taxes to the Italian Gov. on SSDI received from the USA?? My friend currently in the USA does not even file or pay taxes because it is not an earned income. Thanks advance.

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 07:09 EST

Ok and thank you almare2

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 07:13 EST

Ok, Sergios, i will check out the residency rules about that. Thank you, again.

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 07:18 EST

Ok, rsetzergg, i will check that info. out. Thank you, again.

maluza86
  3/27/2019 07:28 EST

There are two different scenarios going on here and you need to understand them both.

1- Italian Citizen living in Italy working while physically residing within the borders of Italy, does not matter if the company is American or Japanese - you will pay taxed on any income earned, regardless of where the company resides or nationality of the company. You earned the money as an Italian citizen while a physical resident of Italy, within the Country of Italy...you will pay taxes to Italy.

2- Italian Citizen, physical residence outside the country of Italy, registered in AIRE. Italy will not tax your earned income as you are not physically a resident within the borders of Italy.

I don't know how else to help clarify the answer to the question.

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 07:29 EST

Hi Sergios. Where do i apply for the Codice Fiscale in Italia? Now where i am confused is will i need to apply for the PdiS first then apply for the Codice Fiscale, or do i apply for the Codice Fiscale first? One more question i had from before. The PdiS, i have to pick that up at the post office, correct? Then i fill out the documents, then do i give the documents to the post office and they file the documents and i pay them along with the stamp from the tabbachi? Or do i just get the 'kit' at the post office and fill out the documents and bring them to the 'Questura' for document processing of my PdiS? Who do i pay all the fees to for the PdiS to the post office or the 'Questura'? How much are all the costs for the documents? Again to clarify, i do need a PdiS if i am applying directly through bloodline of my father, correct? I cannot just apply directly for the Italian Citizenship, i do need to apply for PdiS first, correct?? Thanks again in advance.

rsetzer99
  3/27/2019 10:07 EST

1: If you are PHYSICALLY in Italy while you are working you pay taxes to Italy. It does not matter if the company is American, or the currency USD and they pay it into an American Bank account. It does not matter if it is online. What matters is where you are when you are doing the work. This applies to citizens and anyone not a citizen who has permission to work. Again, the key is not WHO you are working for, but WHERE you are when you are doing the work. Italy does NOT tax its citizens when they are physically outside of the country earning a living. The US DOES tax its citizens when they are outside of the country earning a living 2. SSDI - Nobody here has direct experience, but since it is DISABILITY income, probably not. Be careful when you use the blanked term Unearned Income. There are lots of kinds of Unearned Income, and most of them are taxed. In fact SSDI is taxed if your total yearly income from all sources is over a certain amount. 3. The Italian Consulate will not be able to give you an answer, they have no mission for tax advise.

rsetzer99
  3/27/2019 10:17 EST

Coda Fiscale first. It is easy and is not dependent on having any other documents. I believe it has been stated you can go to the Consulate and get that. ---- The PdS is a packet of papers you get at the Post Office. They commonly call it Pacco Giallo, or Yellow Packet. After you fill it out you take it back to the Post Office. You pay the fees at the Post Office. The Post Office will check it to make sure it is filled out correctly, and that your supporting documents are in order. They will give you a receipt with an appointment at the Questura. At the Questura they will page through your documents (they will be sent to the Questura by the Post Office.) They will take your fingerprints. Then you wait, and wait, and wait....:)

maluza86
  3/27/2019 10:44 EST

In this case for the PdiS you must go direct to the Questura and not the post office.

For those that enter Italy without a visa, i.e. seeking to acquire citizenship through one of the accepted means, or as in my case for an initial PdiS Motivi Familiare you must go to the Questura to file all your initial documents. The Questura will then notify you of your next appointment to get fingerprinted, photographed, and interrogated. After such time as deemed appropriate you will be notified by text to return and pick up your PdiS.

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 21:05 EST

Maluza86- Hi, so I do not need to go to the Post office for the 'Kit' for the PdiS?? I can get the 'Kit' at the Questura? Some people on here said i do have to go to the post office first, this is where things get confuseing? Thanks again.

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 21:20 EST

Hi Sergios, is there an online website that provides exactly what documents i need in Italy , not the Italian Consol in USA , for the PdiS AND my Italian Citizenship when i apply for it? Thank you!

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 21:25 EST

Hi, rsetzergg- Thank you. A few other posts on here said I can go directly to the Questura and skip the post office for PdiS? Do you know anything about this?

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 21:40 EST

My friend who is on SSDI has 3 grown children (over 18) who will also be applying for PdiS and Italian Residency. ( Remember my friend is applying under bloodline of her mom) so, my friends kids( now adults) qualify under my friend , correct?? #1- Will my friend or the kids( now adults), have to have $30K in savings to apply for the PdiS?? #2- Will my friend on SSDI have to have a yearly savings of $30K per year?? #3- Will all the kids ( now adults) need a Codice Fiscale even if they will not be working in Italy? They are all doing fulltime online studies. Does each kid( now adults) apply individual.or as a family??

maluza86
  3/27/2019 22:18 EST

NurseBella,

You need to understand you are getting advice from people in different situations than yours. Most of the people are not Italian Citizens and came over on an Elective Residency Visa. Your situation and process is different than theirs.

Sergios came to Italy in the same situation as you...to acquire his Italian Citizenship through blood line.

I came over as an American married to an Italian.

In both those cases one had to go to the Questura due to the need to show additional/different documents than the others. In my case my wife had to sign the initial paperwork and we had to show a copy of our Marriage certificate.

One more time on the Codice Fiscale. Every. Person. 18. And. Over. Need. To. Get. A. Codice. Fiscale.

As many have written on here, you can not do anything in Italy without it, buy a car, rent an apartment, house, etc. It is the Italian equivalent of our Social Security Number...except not as secure. It is not tied to solely paying taxes.

If your friend on SSDI is moving to Italy under the same precepts as you, to acquire Italian Citizenship, and therefore become and Italian, their process is the same as yours.

Please try to understand the info being posted relative to the situation you are in, your friend and those trying to help and do a little research. Much of the information you are asking is relatively available through a quick internet search.

All the PdiS info is available here:

http://www.poliziadistato.it

NurseBella1
  3/27/2019 23:23 EST

Maluza86-Thank you.

rsetzer99
  3/28/2019 04:42 EST

Listen to Maluza. His information is the correct information you want for your situation. I forgot and listed the "this is that generic yanks have to do" process.

Sergios
  3/28/2019 06:45 EST

When I started the process of regaining my citizenship, I had very little information to go on. There was nobody in the forum that could answer my questions because my case was particularly complex. So I research and researched and researched. The internet is a very valuable tool if you know how to use it. When searching for things italian you are better off asking in italian. Translate your query, using google or whatever, into italian and then asking. You’re more likely to get the answers you are looking for. Set up your browser to automatically translate the responses. This forum is a bunch of people who have had various experiences going through the process. Non are exactly the same, we each have a bit to share. But we are normal folk and are not sitting in a crises center responding to queries from people like yourself. We try to give advice based on our experience but it is not our job to do so. We understand that you are facing a daunting task and are trying to get all the information you can get, but you need to do some of your own research for your particular situation. And also your friend’s.

I left Italy because of several reasons. I, unlike most others on the forum, had no intention of finding a place where I will eventual fade away. My intent to get back my italian citizenship was to gain my EU and then be free to live and travel anywhere in the EU. My wife, dog and I rent furnished apartments or houses in which we stay a year or two and then go elsewhere. We are in Brittany now, which I love, but I don’t know where we will be after November. Italy is a wonderful place if you ignore many things, like bureaucracy, filth, bad driving, crumbling infrastructure and many other things.

Tax matters are not my thing. I do not have to pay taxes in France because they don’t charge taxes on passive income. However, I will be paying 8% over a base amount for health coverage. In Italy, if you have not paid into the italian SS system but are a citizen, you will pay approximately 500 euro a year for coverage. You get that coverage once you are ready to apply for residency. Residency will be available to you once you have your Permesso di Sogiorno. Once you have residency you may also apply for your citizenship. By italian law, you can only apply citizenship at the place you reside. So until you are a resident, you can not apply for citizenship. Unless you are a citizen you must have a Permesso di Sogiorno or otherwise you are an illegal. So, to recap: Codice fiscale first; PDiS second; Residency and Carta Sanitaria {health} third; citizenship fourth.

You get your codice fiscale at the Agency del’entrata [IRS] and all you need is your passport. You can also get it at the consulate [good luck with that] or online. I do not know the link. Thats where the google machine comes in handy. Just make sure its not a phoney one. As far as the PDiS, you may be able to go directly to the Questura to submit the forms. They will provide you with an appointment [months in the future] and a receipt the you must never lose. Its your temporary PDiS and your proof that you are in attendance of the actual one. You will not go any further if you lose the receipt. Once you have the PDiS and a non-transient lease, you could apply for resident at the stato-civile at the town hall. They will give a form to take to the health services to get your medical card. Expect to pay about 500 euro. Please don’t ask where these places are because every town is different. Once you start the residency process, takes some time, you can approach the citizenship office to start that process. You will need the same documents that are outlined on the consulate website. FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WANT!!!!

A word on taxes. Consider it to be rent to live in Italy and use their roads and hospitals.
A word on the PDiS, until your are recognized as a citizen you are just an immigrant. Thats why you have to get one. You are there on a tourist, 90 day visa and must leave unless you have the receipt in hand for the PDiS.

MuhammadR1
  3/28/2019 13:24 EST

Sergios- I am NurseBella1, husband and I take great offense of you speaking to my wife like this when you stated 'You are not a crisis center' , answering questions for people like my wife! This whole process is very confuseing for most individuals. Nobody has told you to answer anyones questions on this website. If you feel like you are a crisis center, than you should be volunteering and degradeing people on here, especially my wife! My wife thankfully is not in a crisis! This process is all very confuseing to most individuals. My wife has been very thankful to everyone responding to her questions. So maybe you should volunteer someplace else, and not telling people you are a crisis center and trying to act like my wife is in some sort of crisis by your comment on your last post to my wife! Thankfully my wife is not only a Nurse but she is also a surgeon. She is very gifted and talented! Do not insult her with saying she is in a crisis!

Sergios
  3/28/2019 15:16 EST

Dear Muhammad; I wish you and your wife the best of luck in your efforts to move to Italy.

Janin
  3/28/2019 15:22 EST

Nothing is so hard as man's ingratitude.
Janin

maradel
  3/28/2019 15:41 EST

Or... 'nothing is harder to believe than another person's total tone deafness.'

Sergios, your generosity in sharing your expertise is greatly appreciated by the vast majority of people here.

foxwhite1
  3/28/2019 15:45 EST

In defense of Sergio and all the others who have graciously answered so many questions posted by NurseBella1 allow me to defend Sergios post which is I assume written out of frustration. IF your wife had taken just a bit of time to search this website as well as the internet most of her questions would have been answered. Time and again people come on to forum because they simply refuse to do any 'heavy lifting' and just expect others to educate them. I have sat on the side lines and read each post and wonder when someone was going to simply tell NurseBella1 to do some research on her own. Yes, the process is confusing, but there are plenty of resources besides this site which provide much more detailed information if one only took the time.

miki184
  3/28/2019 16:28 EST

I second the defense of Sergio as more than one person has written time and time and time again the same exact thing (Codice fiscale, taxes, when to get what, etc) and YET Ms Nurse has continued to ask the same thing making one wonder if she every actually read the answers. Thus all those trying to help have become incredibly frustrated. I felt frustrated and didn't offer an answer, imagine those who did.
Plus, as Foxwhite1 said, too many people expect others to give them all the answers instead of taking the time to look for the answers directly.
I had to do all that on my own before there were forums and to read and ask questions on so I know it can be done!
BTW, Sergio no longer lives in Italy so I think it is not only nice but extremely generous of him to take the time to try and help Ms Nurse. So before you condemn someone trying to help, think twice. And now the ball is in your court, get to work and do YOUR homework!

miki184
  3/28/2019 16:28 EST

I second the defense of Sergio as more than one person has written time and time and time again the same exact thing (Codice fiscale, taxes, when to get what, etc) and YET Ms Nurse has continued to ask the same thing making one wonder if she every actually read the answers. Thus all those trying to help have become incredibly frustrated. I felt frustrated and didn't offer an answer, imagine those who did.
Plus, as Foxwhite1 said, too many people expect others to give them all the answers instead of taking the time to look for the answers directly.
I had to do all that on my own before there were forums and to read and ask questions on so I know it can be done!
BTW, Sergio no longer lives in Italy so I think it is not only nice but extremely generous of him to take the time to try and help Ms Nurse. So before you condemn someone trying to help, think twice. And now the ball is in your court, get to work and do YOUR homework!

NurseBella1
  3/28/2019 16:45 EST

MuhammadR1- EXCUSE ME, AND WHO ARE YOU??????? ARE YOU SOME KIND OF TROLL ON HERE??????? I DO NOT HAVE A HUSBAND NAMED Muhammad!!!! I AM NOT A SURGEON!!!! These people on here have been very kind to me and takeing there time to help me, I am so thankful for that. PLEASE TAKE YOUR TROLLING GAMES SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!

almare2
  3/28/2019 16:47 EST

I agree with the previous posts. Sergio, as well as several other people, has been very generous with his time and advice. But NurseBella doesn't seem to have read the answers and continues to ask the same questions that have already been answered. Though I'm not in a position to answer any of the queries, I have found it frustrating to keep reading the same questions from her over and over. It's very easy to do a search for specific topics on this forum. It does take time to read the answers, but it's a good way to learn the basics and then narrow one's questions down to whatever topics haven't already been dealt with rather than throwing the same basic questions out afresh.

NurseBella1
  3/28/2019 16:54 EST

Sergios and Everyone else. I am soooo sorry about this. I have no clue how this Muhammad troll is, no clue at all. EVERYONE has been an incredible help to me that has taken their time out for me. I have really appreciated everyone who has helped me with their own experiences on here. I will forever be grateful. Thanks again everyone :)

Sergios
  3/28/2019 17:04 EST

Please make an attempt to some research. I start on the Italian consulate website and study the documents that are needed. Read what they want done with the documents, in what form they want them. When they use words like apostiled, legalized, translate. Those words have specific meanings and you must understand them or you'll find yourself in Italy with the wrong or missing docs. You should also review the laws that pertain to your case. Specifically, Italian law 555 June 13, 1912 article 7. Some of the other articles are also important. You may be able to find an English language version on Wikipedia. Then come back if you have questions.

NurseBella1
  3/28/2019 17:26 EST

Sergios- Hi, Sergios. Yes i will definately do that. You have been an amazeing help and others on here have helped me as well. As always thank you so much for takeing your precious time to help me out with this. I have been doing alot of research like you and everyone suggested. I should have researched alot more, i did somewhat but quite honestly i have never been so confused in my life. I know you heard this quite a bit. It is confuseing, and thanks to you and everyone else i am finally understanding more of how it all works. Thanks for being patient with me, i went through some severe trauma recently and it has affected a few things, includeing absorbing information. Thanks again :)

DancerCassandra
  3/28/2019 18:00 EST

Thank you for asking so many questions NurseBella. I have definately had to sharpen my pencil several times, and taken several notes on this topic. I myself will be doing the same thing as you. It is confuseing I totally agree with you and with everyone else who admitted to it. I am also doing lots of research as well. Thats Italy for you, you will get 12 different answers for 1 question you may ask, believe me I know, I just got back recently from Italy, and even being there in person, I still got different answers, alot of different answers. So me being there in person did not solve a thing or get any of my questions really answered. So when myself and my sons get ready to go to Italy, we will just go with the flow, and may the best answer win. *PEACE*

BachelorAnthony
  3/28/2019 18:56 EST

I can totally see the confusion here. There is so much information but slightly different. I been reading this post and to be honest DancerCassandra I had to sharpen more than pencils , I need a new chip in my brain.....lm#o...... Dang, im more confused than ever. I say lets take a break from all this and have a glass of VINO! CHEERS!

maluza86
  3/29/2019 00:45 EST

Wow! So I woke up this morning and my email was blown up!

First, many, many, many thanks to Sergio, who continually provides sage advice and takes the time to answer questions, even while living in France!

What some might not understand is that it takes time to craft a response related to the questions being asked with regard to the individual's situation.

I know the whole Muhamad1 post was trolling, but just so those who continually ask the same questions that have been answered on this forum ad nauseam please do a little research first, then come with specific questions (I am not singling anyone out here).

Everyone I have dealt with on this forum has been giving of their time and knowledge. Several have written blogs of their experiences that are extremely helpful.

There is plenty of information out there, use it wisely and when you get to a point of not understanding or receiving conflicting information it is up to you to understand the context of the info.

My favorite question is when someone gets on the Forum and asks "I've always wanted to move to Italy, I've never been there, tell me the best place to live." Ha! Really??!!

Sergio, your reply to the Forum Troll Muhamad1 was spot on---wishing them well and not alienating the situation further;-)

I wrote someone the other day wondering if we were all the subject of a "troll."

NurseBella, thank you for setting the situation straight with whomever Muhamad1 may be and for coming to the defense of Sergio.

I would like to add one more piece of information to the questions asked by NurseBella and DancerCassandra with regard to SSDI, to show the complexity of every situation and that everyone's situation is dependent upon a certain set of circumstances. Also it is important to understand as Sergio mentioned, "words have meaning."

The claim was made that SSDI is not taxable in the US because it is not "earned income."

That statement in itself is false. I receive a military pension, it is not "earned income" it is taxable in the US.

SSDI may also be taxable in the US, depending on the individual receiving the benefit's situation:

"Social Security disability benefits (SSDI) can be subject to tax, but most disability recipients don't end up paying taxes on them because they don't have much other income. About a third of Social Security disability recipients, however, do pay some taxes, because of their spouse's income or other household income."

I'll leave it at that.

I am awaiting a text from the Questura to receive my first renewal PdiS. My original was for 5 years, Motivi Familiare. I assume this one will be for the same period.

However, once I have the renewal in hand, I can apply for my Permesso di soggiorno UE per soggiornanti di lungo periodo as I have been in Italy at least 5 years.

That will grant me permanent permission to stay and I will not have to apply for anymore PdiS(s). It also provides the individual with a few other rights within the Italian system.

Ciao a tutti e buona giornata! La primavera in Italia e meravigliosa!

worlddan
  3/29/2019 02:20 EST

I receive these threads via email. Some show up in my inbox; others in junk mail. Hard to follow the thread. Does anyone else have this problem?

worlddan
  3/29/2019 02:20 EST

I receive these threads via email. Some show up in my inbox; others in junk mail. Hard to follow the thread. Does anyone else have this problem?

whidden39
  3/29/2019 03:20 EST

Sergio’s: I have been on this forum for years and I have learned many things from your informed experiences and opinions. If anyone were to glean your many posts over the years, they would reveal a generous and sincere participant with no intent to offend anyone. In fact, I would call you one of this forum’s solid leaders along with Maluza and Retzger and a few others who share their experiences with patience and good intent. Sometimes it’s true that no good deed goes unpunished.

Sergios
  3/29/2019 04:06 EST

Thank you all for your kind words. My attempts to regain my citizenship were rejected by the NY Consulate, over and over again, for 15 years. Each time my application was rejected I did a bit more research. I was certain that I was in the right but again and again I was rejected. I even developed a correspondence acquaintance with the head of the unit. Finally she gave in and said that she would submit my application to Rome for their opinion. After about a year I realized that she lied to shut me up. At that point I was getting closer to retiring and resolved to attempt to get my citizenship in Italy. Understand that I could easily have had my citizenship reinstated by simply living in italy for a year. But that was not what I wanted. i wanted my two sons to have their Italian citizenship as well. To have my citizenship reinstated meant that they were not citizens because I was not a citizen when they were born. I insisted that I was a citizens all the time, based on my interpretation of article 7 of the Italian law. When I finally arrived in Italy and present my case, there was no argument. My application was accepted, a few months later I had my passport and my kids have the right to have their citizenship recognized in the United States. The fact that they can't get an appointment is preventing them from completing the task. Italian bureaucracy is a disgrace! Italian functionaries are closed minded and opinionated and would rather go have a cigarette and a coffee than to answer a phone that keeps ringing all day. That is what people have to deal with. It's not a simple matter of following the prescribed steps to achieve your goal. You MUST KNOW THE LAWS BETTER than the guy sitting across from you. Those laws are complex and contradictory. Unless you are going to hire a lawyer, go armed with legal firepower. This forum is a bunch of us trying to steer people in the right direction. We are not here to do the work. We have no legal standing and, worse, we do not know everything about the people who are asking for guidance. All we can do is give generalized advice so that those people can find the answers they need. We try to correct misconceptions people may have but we can only go so far. Having said that, the members of this forum who give of their time and experiences have done a remarkable job steering many people towards their goal. Ringo my dog, got his Italian passport months before I did.

bogart2
  3/29/2019 04:17 EST

My experience was like Sergios in one respect -- it was easier for me to just come to Italy and get citizenship done here. Lacking good language skills, I employed help. And just got my Italian driving license.

maluza86
  3/29/2019 04:29 EST

...and good humor to boot! The last line about Ringo cracked me up!!:-)

rsetzer99
  3/29/2019 05:02 EST

Even more confusing about Italian bureaucracy is that sometimes two "no's" just means that third time will be a 'yes'. Even when talking to the very same clerk. :)

foxwhite1
  3/29/2019 07:58 EST

Here is a good starting point for anyone thinking about relocation to Italia.

http://vistoperitalia.esteri.it/home/en#BMQuestionario

NurseBella1
  3/29/2019 09:39 EST

I totally agree with you DancerCassandra. BachelorAnthony cheers to you as well! Hope you enjoyed that 'Vino', haha ;)

BachelorAnthony
  3/29/2019 10:08 EST

Yeah, I definately enjoyed that vino! NurseBella1 this forumn is such a hot topic it should be trending right now. Love it! We should all get together and have an expat party in Italy!

BachelorAnthony
  3/29/2019 10:22 EST

Alright everyone I have a question. Say I do not want to be a Citizen of Italy and I just want to be a resident. I can be a citizen through my mother. I read on here that after 5 years with a PdiS people can become residents? Would I still be liable to pay taxes in Italy if I am not employed just with a PdiS ?( I will live off my savings) Will I have to go through the whole process with PdiS is the process the same?
Would they keep renewing my PdiS till the 5 year mark? With the PdiS can I live in Italy permantely without going the citizen route? Would I still have to prove that I have a house or apartment and financial means just living in Italy with a PdiS?

NurseBella1
  3/29/2019 10:27 EST

rsetzergg- Yes & yes i totally agree that is where all the confusion comes in.

maluza86
  3/29/2019 11:44 EST

Anthony,

If you have no intention of reacquiring your Italian citizenship, and you are not married to an EU Citizen, then you must start at square one and and apply for an Elective Residency Visa through one of the Italian Consulates, BEFORE you go to Italy. You are not allowed to do any work of any sort in Italy with an elective residence visa. PERIOD.

You will have to show ample disposable income and savings to not become a "burden of the state."

There is no set figure, I'll let others who went through that process provide more info, but suffice it to say it's different depending on which consulate you go through.

Regardless, under an elective residency visa you get the visa first. Once you enter Italy you have 8 days to go the post office and fill out the Permesso di Soggiorno paperwork and send it in.

The Post Office will fix an appointment with the Questura. You will go to the Questura at said time with all your documents and they will check everything then set another appointment for you to return, get fingerprinted, photographed and interrogated. Once that is complete you will receive a text message when your PdiS is ready for pick up.

After you receive our PdiS you apply for residency then get your Carta D'Identita.

The PdiS is a "Permit to Stay" it is not a Residence Permit.

Your PdiS will be good for two years and you will have to renew it every two years. Once you have been a resident for more than 5 years, you may apply for the Permesso di Soggiorno UE per Soggiornanti di Lungo Periodo which allows you to stay permanently, work, move within the EU, vote in local elections and a few other items.

You will still pay taxes to Italy regardless if you work. You will be taxed on your investments, retirement income, 401Ks etc.

Buona fortuna.

Sergios
  3/29/2019 11:50 EST

I'll toast from France.

BachelorAnthony
  3/29/2019 12:26 EST

Awesome information Maluza86. I will have to go to the Consolute in US first I cannot go directly to Italy to get the visa? Question, why do I need a visa before going to Italy? Then after 8 days in Italy I go to the Questura and apply for PdiS. It may take up to 3 years just to get the appointment at the US consolate. Is the income guideline still around $30, 000 a year? I am only 28 yrs old I just come from a wealthy family so I have no investments or 401k or retire benefits. Then after issued the PdiS I keep renewing it every 2 years till it reaches 5 years. Then I can become a Perm resident. At the Perm Resident level I can work, travel in the other EU countries, etc.? Do I have to stay in Italy with the PdiS or can I live back and forth from US to Italy?

BachelorAnthony
  3/29/2019 12:36 EST

Oh one more thing Maluza86 If i go the route of planning on being a Citizen of Italy like posted before I will not have to show any financial security and I will not need a visa from the US I will just arrive in Italy apply for PdiS at the questura, no post office needed within 8 days of arriving to Italy. Then I wait for the questura to text me when my PdiS is ready. Then at that time I tell the questura I want to be an Italian Citizen the same day I am there to pick up the PdiS and I can start the paperwork to be a Italian citizen. I will still be keeping my American Citizenship as well. Will they know this or is there a special document I need to submit saying I want to keep my American Citizenship as well? Did I understand all this correctly and In sequence order? Please let me know if I am not correct or need to be corrected here.

BachelorAnthony
  3/29/2019 12:38 EST

Sergois and all you awesome people on here! CHEERS! HAHA. Good luck NurseBella1 and everyone going through this process!

BachelorAnthony
  3/29/2019 13:07 EST

Sergois I will also toast to finding me a sweet and beautiful woman in Europe. Oh wait, thats a whole different topic. Anyway I was thinking the reason this thread might have been trolled the other day was cause it has awesome questions and awesome responses on it. Sorry NurseBella1 you had to go through that. You have been really respectful to this community I read every thank you have posted. Ok, lets have that vino. *CHEERS*

maluza86
  3/29/2019 13:53 EST

Anthony,

You cannot get a visa in Italy. That has to be done in the US. I am not being flippant here, but think about it...does the US allow people to enter first then apply for a Visa once in the US? I'll answer for you, no!

You must get a visa from a consulate in the country you are living in at the time of the application. One of the main functions of a consulate or Embassy is to issue visas for those that wish to either travel or live in their country, before they physically leave their home country or enter the country they are trying to travel to.

I do not know the wait times for a visa, but if it's three years, it's three years. In the meantime, you can travel back and forth on a tourist visa and stay for up to 90 days.

You are allowed to travel to Italy and to all other members of the Schengen Area for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa, as long as your U.S. passport is valid for at least 6 months after your planned return to the United States!

You must then exit the Schengen area for 90 days before returning.

You understand correctly the part about obtaining and renewing the PdiS.

One can apply for permanent residency after they have lived in Italy for a continuous five-year period. The application must be submitted before the expiry date of the existing residency permit to the Questura (police headquarters) in your place of residence.

Here is where you can obtain all the info on residency requirements, duration of stay, etc.

http://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/10723

maluza86
  3/29/2019 14:00 EST

I am not the one to answer all the questions on becoming an Italian citizen as I chose to not go that route, since my wife is Italian.

Sergio may be willing to chime in here.

The part, I believe that you have out of sequence is the citizenship part. That is the first thing you do when you go to the Questura. You declare you are trying to reacquire your lost citizenship as that's part of the PdiS application process, otherwise you would need to either show you have a visa or a spouse that is Italian.

One thing to remember with both scenarios, you need a codice fiscale first and proof of health insurance and a valid lease or property ownership among other required items and paperwork.

As for maintaining your American citizenship you do not have to worry, there is nothing you need to do. If you don't want to have American citizenship anymore you must go to the US Embassy and physically renounce it. It is a formal process.

Sergios
  3/29/2019 14:33 EST

Just keep in mind that until you are recognized as a citizen, you are just another immigrant and as such you must do the immigrant things, like getting a visa, or getting a PDiS by standing outside or inside an unmarked hallway with a bunch of other immigrants with no information for a few hours waiting to be seen by somebody who does not want to be there. Your Italian heritage is not enough by itself. You need the docs in hand to be Italian. So, you can go to Italy on a tourist visa but if you want to stay longer you must get a PDiS. But the only one you are allowed to get is the citizenship one because you do not have a visa in hand. your options are therefore limited.

almare2
  3/29/2019 16:00 EST

Hi, everyone! Though due to lack of the required passive income I am not able to move to Italy, I still follow with interest all the posts. What I have never understood is how all of you have been able to rent housing before acquiring the permesso di soggiorno. Back in 2003, I signed a lease for an apartment that I intended to use as a vacation apartment. The rental agent sent the lease to the local questura (Avezzano in Abruzzo) and it was returned with the notation "No permesso di soggiorno, no lease." So how is it possible to rent an apartment without first acquiring a PdS?

Sergios
  3/29/2019 16:58 EST

I rented privately.

almare2
  3/29/2019 17:21 EST

But Sergio, whoever you rented from still had to send the lease to the questura, correct? Otherwise you wouldn't have been a legal resident.

Sergios
  3/29/2019 17:37 EST

The lease went to the cummune,

almare2
  3/29/2019 17:41 EST

So I still don't know what happened. Maybe the agent sent it to the wrong place. Maybe it's one of those "Italian things" that vary from place to place. I sure wish I could have rented, as I could have saved a lot on hotel bills over the years! Anyone else have problems with renting? Why me? Argh! ;-)

BachelorAnthony
  3/29/2019 18:42 EST

So If I do the Italian Citizen option, which I am useing my Mother or Father, When applying for PdiS I will already need a lease agreement, A codice Fiscale, and Health Insurance? I will need these 3 things when applying for the PdiS? , or is that just for if I do not want to do Italian Citizenship and keep renewing the PdiS Can a B&B be used if continually living in a B&B and the owner has proof?

DancerCassandra
  3/29/2019 18:51 EST

I see where you are comeing from almare2 , you are 100% correct on this one, like I said before , I was in Italy not to long ago on vacation and I went down to Remax to ask around and they will NOT rent without a PdiS. So how can we present all this paperwork when applying for a PdiS if they will not issue one without a lease agreement? BTW, in Italy plz use a realtor to lease/rent it will cost you $ but they will set up utilities and all for you, if not it gets very complicated! And I also will be useing my Father & Mother who were both born in Italia.

almare2
  3/29/2019 19:18 EST

Hi, DancerCassandra,

Thanks for your reply. Glad to hear that I'm not the only one with the problem! Maybe it depends on which area one is in. In Avezzano I also had to practically beg for a codice fiscale, and I have never been able to open a bank account there (not even a foreigner banking account) as the bank wants a document from my US bank stating certain things but neither of my US banks will give me one, only a barebones document saying that I have an account, when I opened it, and how much there is in it. I think it depends on whether the official or other person you are dealing with got up on the right side of the bed or not. Thanks again for your reply. :-)

almare2
  3/29/2019 19:19 EST

Hi, DancerCassandra,

Thanks for your reply. Glad to hear that I'm not the only one with the problem! Maybe it depends on which area one is in. In Avezzano I also had to practically beg for a codice fiscale, and I have never been able to open a bank account there (not even a foreigner banking account) as the bank wants a document from my US bank stating certain things but neither of my US banks will give me one, only a barebones document saying that I have an account, when I opened it, and how much there is in it. I think it depends on whether the official or other person you are dealing with got up on the right side of the bed or not. Thanks again for your reply. :-)

almare2
  3/29/2019 19:21 EST

DancerCassandra, I didn't mean I am glad that you have the problem, haha! I hope you are able to rent soon! :-D

DancerCassandra
  3/29/2019 21:42 EST

No worries ;) When I get to Italy I hope its all a smooth process....I know some Italian but maybe not enough. I definately need to do some studying.

BachelorAnthony
  3/29/2019 22:21 EST

Can any kind soul please respond to my message on this thread from 3-29-19 at 18:42 eastern time - P L E A S E .....

almare2
  3/29/2019 23:02 EST

BachelorAnthony, the people who could answer your query live in Italy. Right now it's 4 in the morning there, and most likely they're asleep. In fact, it was nearly midnight there when you posted your query.

BachelorAnthony
  3/29/2019 23:40 EST

Yeah your right. I will wait till their morning. Then hopefully I can get some answers on my last post on this thread.

Sergios
  3/30/2019 03:02 EST

BA: you don't have the option to choose if you go the citizen route or the non-citizen route unless you have a visa in hand. If you have such a visa then you already have a lease as part of the requirement to get the visa. If you don't, and your are eligible for citizenship, then that remains your only option. Operating on that option, when you go to Italy, armed with all your required documents, you will be required to apply for your PDiS (already having a Codice fiscale) so you can get that all important receipt. You will not be asked about health insurance. You will need a lease. I got mine privately. Look for rent signs or make an off-season agreement with a vacation rental owner. Italian leases require a set opt-out clause, say 2 or 6 month notice that you are breaking the lease. The PDiS receipt is your extend visa that allows you to remain longer than 90 days. That's why you need it. The process for citizenship takes longer than 90 days. Residency requires either citizenship or a PDiS. These laws are purposely complex and apperantly arbitrary but, legally they are logically established.

rsetzer99
  3/30/2019 03:02 EST

For Bachelor Anthony --- I you do no intend to come and live in Italy and are not wanting to use the reacquire citizenship route, you will need to follow the path that any generic American who wants to live in Italy has to follow. You can look at my blog www.theslowtourist.com for my step by step posts on exactly how we made our move to Italy. Under the scenario you are describing, this is what you will have to do. And finally, yes, you would have to pay taxes to Italy so long as you live here more than 183 days in a year. I would also throw in that 'living off savings' is very unlikely to get an approval for a visa.

Sergios
  3/30/2019 03:08 EST

Concerning my previous statement, this if for all following this, the only exception to what I said is if you have immediate Italian family. For most people that is a spouse. EU law allows the spouses and non-adult offsprings, to be with their EU family member. So if you want to get around what I stated, marry an Italian.

maluza86
  3/30/2019 04:39 EST

That's the best advice yet Sergio!! :-)

BachelorAnthony
  3/30/2019 05:42 EST

Alright so let me get this straight I WILL need to get a visa for either that I am applying for? If I want a residence Visa after 5 years or Italian citizen. I will need a Visa in both scenarios?

maluza86
  3/30/2019 06:05 EST

NO!

Scenario A: You have Italian blood flowing through your veins and are a descendant of an Italian citizen and wish to have your Italian citizenship recognized; You do not require a visa beyond the automatic 90-day tourist visa. Sergio laid this all out in several posts.


Scenario B. You wake up one day after dreaming of pasta and pizza and decide you want to move to Italy, but have no Italian descendants and you are not married to an Italian. You need a Visa before your pasta and pizza eating will begin. See the previous posts and rsetzer99's blog.

Not sure I can clarify it any further.

In bocca al lupo!

DancerCassandra
  3/30/2019 06:22 EST

According to what the answer was regarding BachelorAnthony question I will not need a Visa since I will be useing my Mom or Dads birthright, I have decided I want my Italian citizenship I believe BachelorAnthony is still decideing which way to go.

DancerCassandra
  3/30/2019 06:28 EST

I will arrive in Italy and apply for the Codice Fiscal. Then I will go to the Post office OR Questura directly to apply for my Pdis and at the time I apply for a PdiS I have 8 days to do so. I will have to work really quickly because When I apply for PdiS I already have to show the lease agreement right? Within 8 days of getting to Italy I will need that lease agreement? *Again I will be applying through my Mom & Dad birthline/bloodline.

Sergios
  3/30/2019 07:23 EST

No. Applying means submitting the application. You will have months to get a place.

maradel
  3/30/2019 07:38 EST

Here's my 2 cents worth of advice:
All of the information being requested by the main questioners on this thread is available from multiple sources on the internet. Anyone unwilling to do even the most basic of research will NEVER manage to get through the process of either applying for a visa, if that's what you need, or applying to have your citizenship recognized, if you qualify, followed by actually moving permanently to Italy and dealing with the endless confusion and hassles that entails, including learning the language if you don't already speak Italian.

As someone who has just spent years in the process of applying to have my citizenship recognized, then organizing my permanent move to Italy, now struggling with additional issues of actually living in Italy as an ITALIAN, not as an American tourist, I can tell you it is exhausting and nearly a full time job at times.

Everyone has different complications to work through, so there is no one source of information that will provide all the answers. Sometimes you will have to pay someone to help you find the answers. There are many hidden costs involved in all of this. Moreover, the Italian government is getting more frustrated with Americans and people of other nationalities clogging up the consulates with applications for citizenship recognition when the vast majority of those people will never establish residency (and pay taxes) in Italy. If you can show that you have money to spend in Italy that can help boost the economy, even a little bit, Italy wants you and will offer some incentives for you to live there permanently. If you cannot show that you have money you will spend in Italy, the Italian government does not want you.

As exhausting and frustrating as this process has been for me, I feel very grateful to the Italian government for allowing me to claim my citizenship. Italy has many problems, and spending time and resources helping Italian Americans claim their citizenship is low on their list of priorities. Being able to live in this country is a privilege, but Italy will extract its pound (or more) of flesh from you. If you're not ready for that, stay in the US.

bogart2
  3/30/2019 07:47 EST

You can also obtain citizenship with the help of commercial services. It costs something, but they help organize document collection and some will arrange for your in-country securing citizenship.
Also, a reminder that Americans need to obtain the long-form marriage and birth certificates. The online services do not provide long-form documents.

maradel
  3/30/2019 07:54 EST

I will add one more thing. I hope y'all know what it means to "apply" for recognition of your citizenship. You don't just throw a few papers together and show up at a consulate or whatever office in Italy that you go to. It can take months to assemble the paperwork because you have to show in legal documents (originals, stamped by government officials, apostilled and translated by an "official" translator) that you qualify by Jure sanguinis or by marriage for citizenship. If you plan to apply in Italy, you need to get all the paperwork together BEFORE you do anything else. The wait time for documents from USCIS is months. Your application for Italian citizenship is close to the bottom of their list of priorities. And be prepared for EVERYONE to lose your paperwork. Seriously.

maradel
  3/30/2019 08:06 EST

If you use a commercial service, it can cost you thousands of dollars. Some have an a la carte menu of services so you can just pay for what you need, depending on how much legwork you're willing to do.

Some have established contacts within one or more consulates and also with USCIS, and that can help speed up the process. If you have the money, I would say it's worth it with the right agency. I paid for some help but did most of the work myself.

One other thing, if you submit an incomplete application, you will not make any friends of people whose help you will need. Make absolutely sure you have exactly what they want, in the right order, and everything in the exact format they want. Good luck figuring out what that is, since it varies from consulate to consulate. I don't know about Italy applications.

Sergios
  3/30/2019 08:56 EST

What maradel says is true. You, as the initiate trying to become a citizen, have no idea about what you will be encountering. It all can be done and done successfully as long as you dot the T's and cross the i's. The advice you are getting here is just that, advice. Not legal help, not a instruction manual specific to your case. What it is is the sharing of the experiences of that people who have done it before you. However we each have different histories and applied in different communes. My exact situation will not help other than to give you broad guidance. Italy is the place of choice for most and, therefore, the italian government is making it more and more difficult to migrate to Italy. Other EU countries are easier to get into and have fewer administrative roadblocks. If it does not have to be Italy, consider france or portugal. You still need to show sufficient income, however.

codybrandy
  3/30/2019 09:17 EST

Boy, this topic has gotten complicated...maybe 1 question at a time would be helpful. So: my input....YOU NEED to apply for your CODICE FISCALE TODAY! In the US preferably...but do it FIRST. Go on line to your local consulate or just Google codice fiscale in Italy or call the consulate in your area...it is free, it is very easy to get, it doesn't expire and it is needed for everything. Even just a tourist can get one. If you are female and married try to get it in your Passport Name...that may be necessary later and you can change it but it's just another hassle. You can not have a driver's lic. in your name if it doesn't match your passport. Hope that helps: CODICE FISCALE NOW/TODAY. P.S. an Italian lesson...don't put things off thinking you can get it done in a week...more likely a month+/-. Good Luck P.SS: Have you made an appt. at the consulate to help answer your questions and to pick up the docs. you will need? Do that also.

almare2
  3/30/2019 10:46 EST

There's information on how to obtain a codice fiscale at https://www.agenziaentrate.gov.it/wps/content/Nsilib/NSE/Individuals/Tax+identification+number+for+foreign+citizens/. If you are not in Italy, it must be done at an Italian embassy or consulate. If you can't get to an embassy or consulate, you can do it online, but it will cost; see https://www.studiolegalemetta.com/en/italian-tax-code-codice-fiscale/ (which also explains why you need one) and https://www.studiolegalemetta.com/go/personal-tax-code-application-form/.

codybrandy
  3/30/2019 11:33 EST

Codice Fiscale: Almare....is the website you mentioned a private law office...I don't think the Codice should cost anything...better to call the consulate in the US or go to the Agenzia della Entrate when in Italy. Pretty certain it's free. Again to repeat myself: if you are a woman who's married name is on your passport (and everything else you own)...they will try to insist you take out your Codice in your maiden name. This may cause problems later (when you go to get an Italian driver's lic for instance) Try to have the codice in your Passport name...worse comes to worse you can have it changed at some point at the Agenzia della Entrate.

almare2
  3/30/2019 11:54 EST

Yes, codybrandy, if you read the whole post, you'll see that that's what I said. Sergio or someone had said that it could be obtained online, and I was just pointing out that if one wants to do so, there is a fee involved. It's not possible to do it for free online.

almare2
  3/30/2019 12:01 EST

For people who live far away from the assigned consulate and aren't planning to go to Italy soon, it might be cheaper to pay the online fee than spend the time and money to go to the consulate.

HenryGiovanni
  3/30/2019 12:56 EST

Hi All,
I'll repeat myself and say that for whatever stack of docs you submit to ANY govt agency, US or otherwise, you should keep an exact photocopy of your submission, stapled in the exact same order as your submission. Two identical packets; one for them (originals, of course) and one for you (the copies). It is just prudent. You will be glad you did.

One other hint: I found that when I had originals they always took a photocopy and returned the original to me (ie- passport, matrimonio, etc). If you go armed with free copies for them you will save them time and maybe make a friend. It never hurts to have extras.
Cheers, John.,

Sergios
  3/30/2019 13:20 EST

I went a bit further. I had triplicate originals. Added some expense but I sure felt better when the docs disappeared under a pile on somebody's desk.

Principessa39
  3/30/2019 13:46 EST

Hi Henry Giovanni. I as well will be doing the Jus Sanguinis- Italian Citizenship, like NurseBella , DancerCassandra, BachelorAnthony, I will be doing this process in Italia not America. I am a American Citizen. Will they keep my Mother & Father ORIGINAL birth certificate and marriage certificate, they were both born there and married there. If they do keep it from what I understand I will have to call the commune were they were born to get duplicate copies in case the original gets lost right? Does anyone know if they take certified Italian birth certificates at the Questura when I apply for the PdiS first?

Principessa39
  3/30/2019 14:16 EST

I also will be doing my Italian citizenship(Jus Sanguinis) in Italia through my Father or Mother. I want to make certain I got this thread correctly. I WILL NOT NEED A VISA ISSUED BEFORE IN THE US SINCE I WILL GO THROUGH DIRECT BLOODLINE CORRECT, NO VISA REQUIRED?? I go directly to the Questura within 8 days of arriving in Italy with NO visa??
So mark me if I am wrong please. Here would be my steps. 1- I get my Codice Fiscale, either in person at the Agencia delle entrate or beforehand online with a fee. That Codice Fiscale will be presented to the Questura when I apply for my PdiS with all my American Apostille documents and translated into Italian and my parents Italian birth certificates and Marriage License and my parents Naturalization papers. Does anyone know if divorce decrees from previous marriage are needed ?? 2- I will NOT have to prove health insurance( per Sergios posting) 3- I will NOT have to prove that I have a certain amount of money stashed away. 4- I take my documents straight to the Questura, I could actually skip the post office and go apply directly at the Questura for the PdiS. based on Jus Sanguinis. 5- This is a question that myself do not understand. Will I have to show proof of a home or apartment rental when I go for the PdiS or when I go for my Italian Citizenship while the PdiS is being processed for me?? 6- After doing the pdiS I will wait 3-4 months then as soon as I receive the PdiS ( they text you when ready) I can go for the Italian Citizenship and hand in all those documents. 7- One clarification here is when will i have to show I have the health Insurance or do I ever have to show that?? Can I get the Health insurance through the state when i go submit my documents for the Italian Citizenship8- The Italian citizenship can take up to 1 year to process. 9- My final question who will contact me for my Italian passport issueance once I have done all these steps. 10- Have a HUGE party when it is all said and done! ;-)

NurseBella1
  3/30/2019 14:29 EST

GRAZIE, everyone for takeing your time and life experiences and shareing it with our community on Expats.

Sergios
  3/30/2019 15:10 EST

To all following this thread: my father was born in 1912 and died in 1980. We were not close and he died, in Italy, before I knew to ask him for documents. So I had nothing. However, since I knew where he was born, I wrote to the small Sicilian town and asked for his birth certificate, 3 copies, his marriage certificate, again 3 copies, these certificates were actually hand written pages out of a leggere with an official stamp. I got his death certificate and his reacquired citizenship certificate from the town where he died. That was all done by email.
When those, and other, documents are submitted for your application, they are copied and the copies certified and the originals are returned to you. However, your documents, your birth, your marriage, are submitted and they keep them. My $4000 birth certificate will never be seen again. But those are used to register you in the commune. if you want a birth certificate, they'll print you one. Same as a marriage or citizenship. The town you do the registering is the town that has your files.
These documents have value for what you are trying to do. You want a Snickers Bar, you have to be willing to pay with the requested documents.

maradel
  3/30/2019 15:22 EST

Almare2, you can request a codice fiscale online for free from your consulate. You have to register for the online services (Fast It). It's free, but like everything else, it's a process. It's worth spending the time to do because you have online access to other services through Fast It. There should be a link to Fast It on the home page for your consulate.

Now, I will also add that nothing is guaranteed, meaning that just because you request something online, you may not actually get it the first time. You may have to make several requests (speaking from experience...)

almare2
  3/30/2019 15:34 EST

maradel, Thank you for the information. I didn't realize that. I actually have one, but that's good for newbies to know.

maradel
  3/30/2019 15:38 EST

Sergios, re: the triplicate copies of originals--oh, yes. I think I did mention to expect everything to get lost, at least once. Have at least duplicates of all originals and as John said, have 2 or 3 photocopies. My own paranoia also drove me to have digital copies in 4 different places (usb stick, dropbox, my computer and an external HD).

I also took screenshots of every online transaction I made, including reservations at the consulate, and requests for documents from USCIS and everything else I could request online (birth, death & marriage certificates, etc, etc). I also saved every receipt, digital or hard copy, related to any transaction that had anything to do with my quest. That came in handy twice, once when USCIS "lost" my request for documents and then tried to claim I never made the request, and another time when I requested a death certificate and got nothing back until I proved I made the request.

I still have it all as a reminder of the blood, sweat and tears that went into this whole process (and there's still blood, sweat and tears even though I'm here now.)

Sergios
  3/30/2019 15:52 EST

By the time you get called to pickup your PDiS, you should have ample time to get a place to live. Once you have your PDiS, you then get your residency. You go to the stato civile in Town and request it. At the same time you request the letter from stato civile that allows you to apply for your Italian health coverage. At that time you start your process for citizenship which will be completed after you have residency. A few months later. Once that is done and you have your certificate of citizenship, you go back to the questura and cancel your PDiS. That takes about a week or two. Once that is done you go to a different branch of the questura and apply for your passport which takes about two weeks. there are many specifics I have not covered that will be explained to you as you go along. There are also fees you will have to pay. For all of these steps, you will be frustrated and confused. Just keep smiling and being pleasant..

HenryGiovanni
  3/30/2019 16:53 EST

Hi Principessa39,
I am not the one to ask about that. I took the easy (?!?!?) way out by marrying an Italian woman a long time ago. My entrance was as a direct family member (Motivi Familiare, if I'm not mistaken), not through bloodline.
Sorry, but I know nothing about your chosen method of entrance. Others have direct experience with that and are better able to answer your question.
Cheers, John.

maradel
  3/30/2019 17:12 EST

Although some members of this group have gone through the dual citizenship process (jure sanguinis), there are other groups that may have more varied expertise since they only deal with citizenship questions:
1) https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/italiancitizenship/
2) https://www.facebook.com/groups/dualusitaliancitizenship/

However, anyone who simply jumps into one of those groups and starts asking questions without doing, at minimum, searches for answers on those sites. will likely be told to do a search first and then if you can't find the information you need, come back and ask.

A simple google search will pull up many, many sources of information.

Principessa39
  3/30/2019 17:30 EST

Sergios a friend of mine was out in Italy trying to do the same thing I will be doing and she was denied rentals everywhere. They said no PdiS than no rental. So idk what to do. Can i use the receipt they give me for the PdiS ? But the rental/lease agreement is needed when I do my residency, right, not at the time of PdiS ? Do I have to stay in the same town in Italy while I do my paperwork for citizenship?

Principessa39
  3/30/2019 17:32 EST

Thx, HenryGiovanni

Principessa39
  3/30/2019 17:33 EST

Will do Maradel.

HenryGiovanni
  3/30/2019 17:47 EST

Hi All,
I'm answering my own post in order to put some info out. But it comes with conditions:

First, I am going to re-post my quest for legal documentation. I am not eligible for citizenship yet, not even close. I have no answers there, and will cross bridges when I get to them, not before. But some may be able to use the other info in that post. My entire move was documented on this forum as Moving to Italia (page 6 on the forum), and I believed I was done with it, but here it comes again. See below, after the other conditions.

Second: I am here on a Motivi Familiare, which means I married an Italian woman (a long time ago, and well before we ever thought to live here) That is my limit. I have no answers for visas.

Third, there is a 9-hr time difference between here and CA, where I came from. None of us sit on the forum waiting to answer questions. Answers take time, if they come at all.

Fourth, the Codice Fiscale was so easy to get I don't even remember getting it or how I got it. I think they gave it to me when I got my Residenza. I did NOT get it first, but my wife had one so my need was not pressing. I think it took about five minutes, maybe six. Others may be in different circumstances.

Fifth: the rental agreement. If you have any friends in Italy, then pay special attention to the "Ospitalita" portion of the post. It is more important than you might at first believe. Before questions come, it is a form from the local comune, so that's where to get it.

Sixth: the Carte d'Identita was last, and also easy. I had to wait until I returned from my CA visit, but it took almost no time. You will need a photograph (maybe 4, from the special machines for this purpose located here or there in your town of choice). They just scanned my photo and gave it straight back. I probably signed something or other, and received the new plastic Carte in less than a week via signed-for mail.

A note on B&Bs: here in Padova any stay in a B&B is limited to 30 days and is enforced, when they wish, by the Guardia di Finanza. Bad news for those who are caught. We stayed in one for exactly 3 months, though I paid cash and didn't ask for receipts after the first month. It was also the low season. Seems like enforcement was stricter in the "harder" parts of the city, nearer the train station. Figure it out.

One last note: when I got the Residenza, the comune sent me a "welcome" letter that had all the earmarks of junk mail. For some reason I did not throw it away. This junk-mail-looking letter is vitally important! It proves that I am registered with the comune. The application that I thought was so important was nothing more than an application, with no legal resolution of my application for residence. That "welcome" letter was the proof that I was registered in the comune, and I later had to show it to customs for my bike, which came separately from the household goods. Best bet: save everything in a folder/binder, just in case, because there will be a "just in case" event later.

Here's the post, from last April or May. Happy reading.
Cheers, John.


I Was There At Getting Legal Docs; The Rest of the Story.

When I was quite young, there was a series of books titled “I Was There At . . . [ie-the Alamo, Pearl Harbor, the signing of the Declaration of Independence, and etc.]”. I probably read the entire series when I was at the proper age of fourth grade. “The Rest of the Story” was a radio series by Paul Harvey in the ‘80s(? ‘90s?) that followed up on a news story that somehow dropped out of the public interest, or at least out of the newspapers. Both seemed appropriate for this move to Italy, so I “re-purposed” their titles.

I expect this is my last post for this thread. It’s been a year now, and we are established, if not settled. I promised to document the process of becoming legal, and that threat is now fulfilled with this post. Common to the other “I Was There” posts is length; it’s long. Last chance to exit while the doors remain open.

We arrived on Dec 18, 2017. I was down at the Questura immigration office on Dec 27, but it was closed for the next week. I returned on Jan 2 to an office with probably 100 people milling around and no discernible sense of organization. The woman in charge didn’t seem to like her job much because she was rather impatient with the people. On her side, the people she was talking to kept insisting that whatever it was they needed had to be done right away.

Everyone had a numbered ticket (if the woman in charge gave them one! This didn’t always happen.) and there was an electronic board keeping track of things. I asked a woman who was waiting where she got her ticket. She pointed to a punch-button machine behind the lady in charge, so I wandered over into enemy territory and was promptly repulsed and driven back to the front side of the desk. Not a good way to start my immigration process.

When I finally made my way to the “speaker’s spot” in front of the woman, I tried to explain what I wanted, and was very polite. I think she forgave me, but she wouldn’t give me a ticket, instead directing me to the local comune.

I went to the comune. The declared time for appointments was Thursdays from 10:00-Noon. It was not a Thursday. I came back on Thursday, January 4, at 10:00 and was directed to a room upstairs. Some other people sitting outside the un-numbered door caused me to believe this was the place, and indeed, it was. When my turn came, the woman inside looked at my passport and, probably, a few other papers I had on hand, asked some questions, then gave me an appointment for Feb 26, almost two months out. Her computer wasn’t working, but I gave her my cell number and she texted the apptmt info to me a day or two later. Some weeks after that I went down, on a Thursday, to pick up my paper appointment. Her computer wasn’t working again, but she had printed things up in the meantime and my official appointment paper was in a manila file in front of her on the desk. She remembered me (not a lot of Americans coming through Selvazzano Dentro) and I was out the door, paper-in-hand, within a few minutes.

The Questura immigration office appeared unchanged on Feb 26. The main difference was that the computers were down, so we waited for about an hour and then asked if we could come back a different day. They hand-noted a new appointment time for me on Feb 28 and we left. We returned on Feb 28 to the same level of organization in evidence on previous visits. I will say this for the immigration office; somehow it all works out and things do get done.

My wife had accompanied me on this trip, and we stood, or sat when chairs became available, for about three hours before my number was called. The woman official, in the uniform of the police (or so it appeared to me), was pleasant, polite, and all business. She took my package of docs (passport, Marriage Cert from the Padova comune, apptmt letter, and etc), reviewed them, asked questions, created a paper file, giving me a receipt to keep in my wallet as proof that I was going through the process of legalization, and, finally, gave me a list of docs that were still needed.

I will say that the woman at the comune gave me a list of docs, but without much in the way of explanation. I always ask questions, but sometimes one question gets lost amongst the others. Or maybe it’s the answer that gets lost? There is a document called an “Ospitalita”.
It is worth remembering that we stayed in a B&B for three months while looking for a house. We were still at the B&B on Feb 28 when I was at the Questura talking to the policewoman. My wife claimed residence with her brother right away, and went through the routine of the vigili visit and getting the proper Residenza docs and etc. Because the trash pick-up fee is calculated based on number of persons in the house, her brother had to pay some extra, which I then paid to him.

But for me there was no such option. This is where the Ospitalita comes in. The Ospitalita is a document saying that I am a guest of Franco, visiting, but not living, at his house for purposes that would require Residenza and increased trash tax. There is no vigili visit; it’s nothing more than a signed declaration, really. The policewoman told me I needed one. I had ignored it, not knowing what it was or how to get one, and it wasn’t checked on my list of docs from the comune. The policewoman checked it for me and sent me on my way with a notation to return within 30 days after calling for an apptmt.

I went to the comune, got a Ospitalita form, then walked across the street to the Polizia Locale (who do the vigili visits), for info. Franco filled out his portion of the form the same day, we took it to the comune two days later, where it was stamped, folded, and spindled.

Back to the Questura immigration office on Mar 30, where time stood still. This was Scene I, Take III or IV. There was always around 100 people in that office; it always looked disorganized. It took another two hours or so of waiting. By now we had purchased the condo, so I wasn’t sure whether or not the Ospitalita was still required, but I went armed with photocopies of everything, including the Compravendita purchase agreement for the condo. The policewoman started to leave to make copies when I told her those were hers to keep; she seemed quite grateful. I’ve noticed that the copy machines in govt offices are often located some distance from where they are truly needed (in my opinion), and are also rather slow. Or maybe there is a long code to input each time, or who knows what. She was glad to sit back down and continue. My wife was with me, just in case the Italian obstacles were greater than my Italian abilities, and everything went smoothly. Docs were traded back and forth, probably something was signed, or maybe two somethings. The policewoman disappeared for awhile: I think she went to get my application approved by her superiors, because when she returned I was informed that all was in order, the Permesso was approved, and that I could pick it up in “about a month”. A younger policewoman who spoke English like I speak Italian wrote down the immigration website and told me to input the secret code for my application in order to check the status. This I ignored for a week or two before checking every day, sometimes twice daily. “About a month” passed with no result. “About a month” can certainly include time that is “more than a month”, so I gave it another five days or so. Still no word. I had just decided to give them a call the next business day when my online results changed. I was directed to wait for a text message about an appointment to come down and pick it up. Because I am probably going to return to see my kids in a week or so, I ignored the advice and we went down to the Questura the next morning, where the lady managing the crowd with her usual temper took my printed notice of completion and directed me to another crowd, in the same room, outside of a door that remained closed. I was to give my passport to someone inside and receive my permesso.

We spoke to some of the people there. I am incompetent to detect differences in Italian accents so as to ascertain with some degree of accuracy the origin of the speaker. My wife does this far better than I. A woman speaking what seemed to me to be flawless Italian caused me to wonder why she was even in the immigration line for a renewal of her permesso di soggiorno. My wife told me she was from Romania, probably. Lots of Romanians here in Padova. Their Italian is usually better than mine. Everyone’s Italian is usually better than mine.

The door remained closed. Whenever any official ventured life and limb in the crowd outside, there were pleas for assistance followed by a wave of the hand, indicating one must wait some more. Finally, the woman in charge, the one with attitude, came by and collected a stack of passports, mine included. From here, things moved quickly. I was called right away (ie-within about 15 minutes) and received my Permesso di Soggiorno after the usual trade-off of docs and signatures.

My Permesso is good for 4 years. I thought that the limit used to be 2 years, and had been reduced to 1 year, before renewal is required. A 4-year doc is fine by me!

Next we called the comune for an apptmt. They are always a 9:00 AM, and the bus schedule is not friends with the appointment schedule. We had to run for the bus, but made it, and were at the comune on the appropriate day, Permesso-in-hand along with the by-now-familiar stack of my own docs in the used US Mail Priority envelope. The Residenza app took us about 30 minutes to get through. I am amazed that the Italians still seem to rely heavily on paper, as opposed to computer inputs. And the woman behind the glass had an assortment of stamps fit to bring shame to any accountant. Every paper is stamped, then signed over the stamp, before being hand-stapled. The want of technology reminds me that business opportunities abound for the observant and energetic capitalist. We were given another paper instructing us on where to call so I could pay more for the trash now that there were two “Residenze” in our condo. Not sure about this whole thing, because I’ve been living in this condo since March 18, but feel like Rod Serling at the beginning of Twilight Zone, where he walks freely into the scene but isn’t seen, or heard, by the actors. That’s me; here, but not here, in the condo.

So, Residenza-in-hand we walked across the street to the Polizia Locale/Vigili to ask them to please, please, hurry up with the home invasion because I was leaving for America. Another paper, with some handwritten instructions, duly stamped and signed (not by me, this time).

After leaving the Polizia Locale, we went directly to the local ULSS (healthcare) to register, per instructions from the comune. I had also changed my residence from Franco’s hospitality to my own condo, and had a piece of paper to prove it. With stamps. And signatures.

The ULSS office was full, but they are remarkably more efficient than some other govt offices where misfortune required my attendance. Except for that copy machine bit; out in the waiting room (???), with secret codes, or maybe it had to be oiled first, or something, because it took far longer than the copier in my home office takes to manage exactly two copies. I had the usual photocopies, and had I known she was headed for certain electronic servitude we could each have saved the other some time, and maybe, for her, some frustration. Alas.

I had my ULSS certificate in short-order. The entire process, exclusive of waiting, took maybe 20 minutes before I walked out the door with more paper-in-hand.

We had asked for the vigili to come by between 6:00-8:00 PM. Last Friday, shortly after noon, an elderly woman with a gun came into our home and, while pretending to be checking to see if I lived there, actually spent a lot of time talking with my wife about herbal/holistic remedies for back pain, kids in other countries, cost of travel and how often each one does it, and all sorts of related topics. Sometimes I got a word in edgewise, but was mostly ignored. The package of docs remained on the table, unvisited and unloved. Only the passport and Permesso were needed.

The last thing to get is the Carte d’Identita. The woman with the gun instructed me to wait for about two weeks until they could process the report of her home visit, then call and start that process rolling. It took the comune “about a month” to get my wife’s new plastic identity card to her in the mail, so I presume it will be after I return from the states before I get mine. And that will be the end of it, for 4 years. The comune made my Residenza match the Permesso, so both are 4 years out. A lot can happen in 4 years, so I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.

I’ve seen a lot of posts about the Italian bureaucracy and how bad it is here. On reflection, I see little difference between bureaucracy here and bureaucracy there (US). It is always an annoyance to submit to any govt actor, in my opinion, whether it be a traffic cop, the lady at the DMV who hasn’t left that chair for 18 years, or the attendant at any govt parking lot. Looking at that statement gives me cause to notice that all three examples deal, one way or another, with automobiles. Anyway, it is the same for clerks and judges. Remember that if one doesn’t ask a question, then the word “No” is not an appropriate response; take that govt option to decline your wants right out of their hands. Alas. They’ll probably still say No anyway.

Back to bureaucracy here. I thank those on this site who advised patience. I know I’m out of my comfort zone here, and that tasks and things will take more than one visit to accomplish. Others are in charge, and, despite my admonition in the last paragraph, questions must be asked. Back home I had answers and knew how to get things done, but life was stifling. As Whidden39 said, and I paraphrase, the only thing to look forward to was leaving the house feet-first and horizontal. Life is what one makes of it, even, GASP!, at govt offices. There is little left in my life that is so very important that I must rush headlong to its completion in order to arrive home a half-hour earlier. If bureaucracy is so bad, learn to read and take a book where you go. Buy Il Mattino and practice your Italian. Patience takes one far; impatience will usually bring your matter to faster attention, but not the kind you seek. And despite the bureaucracy, the Italians, men and women alike, behind the glass windows, are invariably helpful and seem to want to personally resolve whatever problems you might bring before them (with, perhaps, the sole exception of the woman at the immigration office). It’s fun to complain about, but, in fact, it just ain’t that bad.

I think this brings an end to this thread of Moving to Italia. I thank those who gave advice and participated in the discussion along the way over this last year, and am ready to provide some measure of info to others, if I am able. As usual, ask any questions.
Cheers, John.

almare2
  3/30/2019 18:04 EST

John, So great that you wrote everything down for others to benefit by. And as always, I love your sense of humor. I think that's what's called for when dealing with the immigration situation. And of course more patience than most of us are willing to exercise! In the late 70s, I married a Dane in Denmark. We went to the comune and after waiting about 15 minutes, I received my permit to stay and work plus my national ID and medical cards, without having to do anything else. Things have changed there, too, and now the requirements are much stricter, including having a certain amount of money in the bank. Too bad that changing countries has become so difficult these days!

NurseBella1
  3/30/2019 21:33 EST

HenryGiovanni, Thank you so much for taking your time to post that. Very informative.

BachelorAnthony
  3/30/2019 23:21 EST

Hey rsetzergg- Cool I will check it out. I think it is better for me to go the Citizen route. It makes things much more easier, imo. They wont exept my living off savings? I will not need a Visa either if i go the Italian citizen route?

BachelorAnthony
  3/30/2019 23:23 EST

HenryGiovanni great step by step info. Cheers!

rsetzer99
  3/31/2019 04:52 EST

For Bachelor Anthony - For the Elective Residence visa, they will want to see income types that will be guaranteed to continue throughout your lifetime. We have know more than one person who provided the Consulate with evidence a very healthy savings account but were turned away. Without them directly saying so, I believe they are not willing to give much weight at all to funds that could all disappear in one drunken bender in Monaco. One alternative is to turn a cash into a lifetime annuity. They are not the best use of cash as the returns and fees make them a poor choice overall. People with zero appetite for risk are their target. Or perhaps as a workaround method to an Elective visa.

rsetzer99
  3/31/2019 05:00 EST

Because of the astounding confusion evident in the longevity of this thread, I believe I am going to comb through it and put together the same kind of post I have on my blog for standard yanks looking for the ER visa. I will contact all the people from whom who's posts I pull information via PM to assist me in proof reading a final draft. I will basically call it the Procedure for Reclaiming Italian Citizenship - Case Studies. It will be available for viewing on this forum via new topic and I will post it on my blog and make it available to anyone who may want a copy.

Umbertomar
  3/31/2019 06:07 EST

Further to rsetzer:
Here is the link to Italian consulates in the US. https://embassy-finder.com/italy_in_usa
You must go to the consulate that services your area in the US. The individual consulates and / or officers have broad discretion in evaluating financial resources. sufficient to issue a visa leading to a PDS.. You may have some luck in contacting the applicable consulate, advising them of your specific resources and getting an answer prior to filing a visa request. On the other hand, they may tell you to file the visa request. Depends on the consulate., Here is the link to the Philadelphia consulate which I think is typical. https://consfiladelfia.esteri.it/resource/2015/03/72458_f_cons57FAQsVISTI.htm . Note that they suggest that questions will be answered by email. This consulate has been responsive to my requests in the past.

Principessa39
  3/31/2019 22:38 EST

HenryGiovanni that was very informative and great advice.

DancerCassandra
  4/1/2019 10:16 EST

Maluza86 & Sergois or anyone who may have an answer to this. I also know someone who will be getting their Italian Citizenship in Italy and they are receiving SSDI ( Social security disability) in the US. Will they need to get their award letter translated in Italiano along with translateing this paperwork along with the SSDI monthly payments they receive? Should they translate all this in Italiano as well and bring it when they apply for PdiS? Does the paperwork thats translated need to be notorized in the US?

DancerCassandra
  4/1/2019 10:21 EST

I think that it an excellent idea about doing a blog about this thread. It certainly will help many people through the process. I look forward to it.

francinecasalinolaura
  4/1/2019 10:59 EST

For what it's worth, I have a Pinterest board called "Retirement" where I pin websites with helpful information for the future. My handle is FrancescaSINY. All my boards are public.

I spent two years working on my citizenship and I'm happy to say I left the Italian Consulate in NYC with my Italian passport last November!

To echo many who have posted before me....smile & be patient!

I plan to move to Sicily sometime next year. If there are any people from Sicily reading this, please reach out on private message. I would love to know where you live and what your impressions are of your new home.

Grazie,
Francesca

Sergios
  4/1/2019 11:18 EST

If I tell you not to bring that stuff, you're going to need it. Having said that, if you are going for citizenship you will not need the financial information. But bring it anyway.

maluza86
  4/1/2019 11:26 EST

While you don't necessarily "need" to show that info when applying for citizenship, I would bring it along. You never know what they will ask for.

I know someone who is in the process of applying for their Permesson di soggiorno UE per lungo periodo after being in Italy 5 years. She was just told by the Questura that she needs her latest US tax return translated, apostilled and authenticated by the Italian Embassy.....in the US. She's been living in Italy for 5 years!!! Oh yeah, before her appointment at the Questura on the 18th, or she has to reapply from square one!

I put that out there to say, you never know what crazy stuff someone will come up with.

HenryGiovanni
  4/1/2019 17:30 EST

Hi DancerCassandra,
I brought my English-language SS award letter, un-translated. I figured it like this: the Italians are no strangers to SS letters (surely!), and numbers are numbers. I needed no translation, not folded, stapled, or spindled. Or even bearing an apostille. Worked for me when I had to show it at the Questura in Padova. It may not work for others in different locales. Only what worked for me. Maybe the stars were aligned in my favor. I take things as they come.
Cheers, John.

DancerCassandra
  4/1/2019 22:16 EST

Thx! Sergios, Maluza86 & HenryGiovanni. I will let my friend know about this. Better more than less if needed.

maluza86
  4/1/2019 22:29 EST

Dancer,

Yes, it's always good to have those type of docs handy even if not translated. You can always get official translations through the Tribunale if needed.

I came over on a 90-day tourist visa in 2014, totally naive to the requirements and not having the luxury of this forum at the time.

Since I was married to an Italian, I knew I had the "right" to be with her in Italy so we took everything from there, made a plan and executed it.

Even though I was not required to show any income, they asked. I had a copy of my military retirement statement (not translated) and that was more than adequate in my case.

As John, said, numbers are numbers and they understand even though it was in $ and not €.

Always better to be prepared with more than you think you will need ;-)

Principessa39
  4/1/2019 23:01 EST

If I do not want the Health Insurance ( Medical Coverage) right away when I become an Italian Citizen can I get it later or is it only a 1x chance to do so? If I do not have Health Insurance (Medical Coverage) and I have to go to the Emergency Dept. in Italy, will they accept me and I just pay out of the pocket , or how does that all work? Same if I need to see a doctor, if I do not have Health Insurance( Medical Coverage) do I just pay out of the pocket and they will accept me, or?

BachelorAnthony
  4/1/2019 23:23 EST

For NurseBella1- Hello, I was curious will they accept your Nurseing license in Italy? Will you continue your line of work? Do you know of some good danceclubs in the Milan area?

Maria222
  4/1/2019 23:33 EST

I’m a radiographer. Will they accept my licenses?

NurseBella1
  4/1/2019 23:55 EST

BachelorAnthony PM me for that info.

Cougar41
  4/2/2019 00:10 EST

They are in need of Doctors and Nurses. They have enough way to many radiographers in Italy since its a fast and easy certificate to obtain and NO you cannot use it in Italy

Sergios
  4/2/2019 03:18 EST

hospital visits are generally free. They'll ask you if you have insurance. When you say yes but it is american insurance, theyll shrug and not charge you. GP Doctor visits are about 50 euro per visit. Speciallist more like 100 to 150 euro per visit. Xrays in the 30 to 50 euro range

Principessa39
  4/3/2019 00:18 EST

Sergios sounds good. Prices are not bad at all. And free sometimes I will take that anyday.

Roxanne39
  4/3/2019 00:24 EST

Sergios can a Codice Fiscale be obtained even by a tourist staying 3 months in Italia ?

Sergios
  4/3/2019 08:00 EST

Codice fiscale Is roughly the equivalent of a social security number. Anybody who does any financial transactions needs one so it's very easy to get. All you need is identification like a passport. To answer your question, yep.

Sergios
  4/3/2019 08:00 EST

Codice fiscale Is roughly the equivalent of a social security number. Anybody who does any financial transactions needs one so it's very easy to get. All you need is identification like a passport. To answer your question, yep.

thefountain
  4/10/2019 14:11 EST

Hi Maluza,

Is money in a US savings account considered income to the Italian government? Or only the interest considered income? I am curious about the interruption.
Thank you.

Sunshine

rsetzer99
  4/10/2019 14:57 EST

Only the interest is income, but, the amount in the account is subject to the wealth tax

NurseBella1
  4/14/2019 19:09 EST

Hi Sergios, Maluza86, almare2, HenryGiovanni or anyone who can answer my question. On Principessa post user 'Ugo' said she simply needs to go to the Italian Consulate and ask for a passport since she is applying through her father and mother. I thought most postings on here said that everyone needs a PdiS even if you are appying to be an Italian Citizenship??

NurseBella1
  4/15/2019 08:12 EST

I got the answer now on Principessa39 post. Thank you.

GeoBlue
GeoBlue

Top-quality coverage for people who live, work, study and travel internationally.
Get Quote

GeoBlueGeoBlue

Top-quality coverage for people who live, work, study and travel internationally.
Get Quote

Living in Italy GuideLiving in Italy Guide

Expats in Italy discuss the pros and cons of living in Italy. From bureaucracy to expensive cities, Italy can be a challenge. Most expats find that the amazing food, charming countryside, beautiful beaches and public healthcare make up for the cons.

Italy Forum Italy Forum
Join our Italy forum to meet other expats and talk about living in Italy.

Contribute to Italy Network Contribute
Help other expats and newcomers by answering questions about the challenges and adventures of living in Italy.

Best Places to Live in Italy Best Places to Live in Italy

If you're considering a move to Italy, here are the 15 Best Places to Live in Italy in 2023.

Healthcare in ItalyHealthcare in Italy

An overview of the healthcare system in Italy - public and private hospitals, Servizio Sanitario Nazionale (SSN), getting your Tessera Sanitaria (healthcare card), Covid-19 entry requirements, vaccinations for Italy, prescription medication availability and more.

Cost of Living in ItalyCost of Living in Italy

Expats offer insight into the cost of living in Italy.

Moving to ItalyMoving to Italy Guide

Expats moving to Italy envision a romantic lifestyle in one of the most beautiful countries in the world. However, it is important to make sure that you do comprehensive research and fully understand what it will mean to move to the city, town or village you choose.

Real Estate in ItalyReal Estate in Italy

Real estate listings in popular cities and towns in Italy.

Pros Cons of Living in ItalyPros & Cons of Living in Italy

Take off your rose-colored glasses and learn what expats have to say about the biggest challenges and the greatest rewards of living in Italy.

Retiring in ItalyRetiring in Italy

Advice for people retiring in Italy.

Visa and Residency ItalyItaly Visa & Residency Guide

Expats share their experiences obtaining residency in Italy. They discuss the ins and outs of the applying for the permesso di soggiorno, recent travel issues, permanent residency in Italy and more.

10 Tips for Living in Italy10 Tips for Living in Italy

If you've recently arrived in Italy, here are 10 tips for digital nomads living in Italy.

GeoBlue
GeoBlue

Top-quality coverage for people who live, work, study and travel internationally.
Get Quote

GeoBlueGeoBlue

Top-quality coverage for people who live, work, study and travel internationally.
Get Quote

Contribute to Italy Network Contribute
Help others in Italy by answering questions about the challenges and adventures of living in Italy.

William Russell
William Russell

Copyright 1997-2024 Burlingame Interactive, Inc.

Privacy Policy Legal