Bellamia203
9/5/2019 07:28 EST
Buon giorno a tutti! I will be retiring in Italy in 2022. I am trying to organize my US retirement accounts now, but need advice from a commercialista as to which vehicle has greater or lesser impact from Italian taxes. This forum has such great advice and it’s been tremendously helpful, but I would like to have someone I can talk to one on one. Could someone recommend a commercialista in Florence or Arezzo? I hope to get there on vacation in October. Thank you in advance!
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rsetzer99
9/5/2019 14:39 EST
Only government based pension payments are exempt. Withdrawals from traditional retirement accounts will be treated as normal income. Social security will be treated as normal income. Per treaty you get a tax credit on your US return for taxes paid to Italy. Basically this means you probably have no taxes due to US. Roth IRA. Nobody knows for sure. I do not believe the treaty contemplates any other similar vehicle. Additionally there is a wealth tax on any assets you maintain back in the US of. .76 percent on real assets and .15 percent on financial assets. The country is currently also offering special tax breaks to people you retire to specific areas.
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Spudbunny
9/7/2019 10:23 EST
This information about a wealth tax is for me new and disturbing. But not surprising I guess. Could you point me to an online source for this information? Or do I need to consult with an expert?
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Spudbunny
9/8/2019 13:34 EST
Thanks for both the answers. I suppose the question remains how big a barrier this tax might be for a couple moving to Italy. Obviously it has not prevented some people for becoming expats. And I suppose the burden of the tax and its implications for moving depends very much on the individual or the family.
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almare2
9/8/2019 15:35 EST
You must also make sure that you are qualified to move to Italy. If you are not an EU citizen or can claim Italian citizenship based on your ancestry, you will have to have around 62,000 euros a year in passive income for the two of you (without working). There are many threads on this forum that deal with that.
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HenryGiovanni
9/8/2019 15:52 EST
Hi Spudbunny,
I make some presumptions: 1) you are American; 2) moving to Italia; and 3) planning ahead. If any are wrong, they you may ignore the following (or maybe not!).
A bit off-topic, but not by much, is the fact that Italy collects next year's tax this year (ie- in advance) and they sort out the math (ie-refund or more due) next year.
What this means, in plain American, is that your first tax-year here you will be required to pay "double". In clearer language, we just filed for our first tax year here (2018) and had to pre-pay for 2019 at the same time, so basically double the 2018 tax due, and meeting all the 2018 payment deadlines.
I never saw this on any online comment, so it was new to me.
By the way, this will include that "wealth tax" bit, getting back to your question.
Forewarned is forearmed.
Cheers, John.
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rsetzer99
9/8/2019 16:39 EST
Americans often don't correctly calculate their true burden. In addition to fed tax, factor in state, property, healthcare and you may find you have parity with Italian taxes.
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Shtinky
9/8/2019 16:46 EST
Very true. Especially the health care part. And the property tax. A good observation.
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HenryGiovanni
9/8/2019 17:04 EST
Hi rsetzer99,
I agree. Even with the VAT (basically "sales tax"), I find Italia far cheaper, tax-wise, than CA. I couldn't believe it when I discovered that my prop taxes were paid just once, and not "annually" in two installments!
On VAT: the price I see over here on the shelf is the price I pay, VAT included. In CA sales-tax-country, the price I saw was only the initial bait-and-switch offer for what I actually had to pay after the 8.75% (I think, at last count!) sales tax was included.
For 2018, my personal tax burden here in Italia was less than 4 months of (only) Obamacare payments in CA (completely ignoring any added taxes for fed or state income, sales, property, and etc.), and my income tax burden here covered all that same healthcare expense with everything else thrown in.
Plus, the food is better and cheaper, as is the wine!
Life could be worse, but it's not!
Cheers, John.
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Spudbunny
9/8/2019 18:51 EST
Good point which raises another question. Assuming a conventional withdrawal rate, we have sufficient assets to meet that income goal. However, the income is not guaranteed in the sense that we are not planning to buy an annuity to produce an income flow similar to that number. I really would not want to turn assets into an annuity just to qualify for an extended Italian visa. However, as I understand it, the assets might be enough to persuade the Italian authorities about the visa, and they may not. So I don’t know the answer to whether we qualify or not.
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Spudbunny
9/8/2019 18:56 EST
We are Americans beginning to look into moving to Italy some time after March 2021. We currently live in California but are permanent residents of Washington, D.C.
The payment a year ahead, assuming no liquidity restraints, is just the opportunity cost of the sum when it is held by the Italians and not by me. Say 4% of the sum.
Italy is somewhat starting to look like death by a thousands cuts (costs).
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Spudbunny
9/8/2019 19:17 EST
Thanks for all this, good observations. Here’s first cut at annual taxes for an American low cost tax jurisdiction, California, and Italy, all calculated on a $75,000 annual income.
New Hampshire ~$15,000
California ~$19,000
Italy ~$30,000
These numbers are just national and state income taxes plus the Italian wealth tax. No sales taxes in the USA and no VAT.
On health care. Two friends have retired at 65 and their monthly is about $600 with good coverage. So that means costs inclusive of health care in New Hampshire are about 25% lower than in Italy. That implies the question of health care quality in Italy. After all, you are paying for something, but what? People here seem satisfied with Italian health care though I have heard otherwise from others.
Finally, an ironic note. From what I understand about the Italian wealth tax, the marginal rate goes to zero at about $60 million in assets. In other words, if you have $100 million in assets and $59 million in assets, you pay the same fixed sum in taxes: 100,000 euros. The wealth tax in part is ultimately trying to affect the incentives of someone other than I.
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almare2
9/8/2019 19:38 EST
What the Italians want to see is fixed income from SS, pension, US rental property, and the like. As another person on this forum once put it, no matter how much money you have in the bank or investments, you could go to Monte Carlo and lose it all in a night. :-(
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dave2018
9/8/2019 20:36 EST
My Italian wife and I strongly desired to move back to Italy upon our relatively early retirement but we have decided to remain in the U.S. for now. I can tell you that in Italy we would have to pay about $13,000 a year in income tax and "wealth" tax of 0.2%. Here in the U.S., we pay about $8,000 total for health insurance, income taxes, and property tax. It's only a $5,000 difference, and if you really love Italy then it's worth it, but there were other considerations for us besides just the additional tax burden. Moreover, you also have to consider that in Italy many things are more expensive such as gasoline, utilities, and most consumer products other than food, although meat is also more expensive generally.
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whidden39
9/9/2019 02:57 EST
Just bought a smart tv here. Price was comparable to US. I had to buy my region free DVD player online, but very inexpensive. Don’t forget if price or selection should motivate you, there is always Amazon.it and Amazon.co.uk. I have had good experiences using both. (If you’ve already signed up with Anacon.cim, you’re set to go with Italy and the UK. And don’t forget there are sales here too. I gave a nearby IKEA too. My only complaint about stores offering household furnishings or products is that they are either at the expensive or cheap end. There’s little in the middle, and the cheap end stuff has a short shelf life. I often buy fewer things now and make do. Perhaps that’s better than my prior consumer behavior in the US.
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Umbertomar
9/9/2019 04:30 EST
I have had good results using referrals for professionals (lawyers & tax experts) from the US Embassy in the local area of Italy. I found my lawyer this way and he is truly a gem. He speaks perfect English and has all the local knowledge.. He can answer my questions, most of the time with a phone call, and refers me to others when I need qualified professionals, architects, contractors, etc.;
Here is the link to the applicable area of the web site. https://it.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/attorneys/.
On calculating the cost differential between the US and Italy, the devil is in the detail. On the income tax side, I took the last 3 years of my US tax returns (Fed, State and Local), gave them to the Italian tax expert in my area of Italy and had him do the analysis. This analysis is extremely fact sensitive.
On the cost of living side, here is a web site that is indicative to do the cost differential. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/
Other factors come into play. Depending on where you are in Italy, with your first house in Italy, there is may be little or no property tax. Depending on your situation and province, drug costs are negligible as compared to the US and health care costs are generally negligible. Quality of health care is location dependent, Others on this forum may be able to advise on a by location basis. I am not in an expensive part of Italy and my costs are about 50% less than in the US. Using the coffee cost of living index, one coffee where I am is 1.1 euro.
Good luck !!!
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rsetzer99
9/9/2019 04:51 EST
It seems the consulate does not place nearly as much weight on a sum which could be wiped out in one drunken weekend in Monaco as they do a guaranteed stream.
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2amilano
9/9/2019 09:26 EST
We were able to have distributions put into our bank account on a monthly basis over several months which we could show to the consulate from our investments. It was enough with SS to get a ER visa.
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dave2018
9/9/2019 10:45 EST
A few things that some folks aren't mentioning when they try to compare the cost of living in Italy and the U.S.: 1)most of us don't live in California which has the highest cost of living in the U.S., 2)most 2 bedroom apartments in Italy range in size from about 800-1100 square feet, which is about half the space you probably had in the U.S., 3)air conditioning is expensive and most apartments do not have it, 4)traveling is expensive if you like to drive due to gasoline costs and freeway tolls(the farther you drive on the freeway the more you pay. You can take the train but it's not always a pleasant experience), 5)meat and dairy are more expensive, and 6)owning a car is more expensive due to high registration fees which increase the larger the car's engine, and high insurance costs. Now, healthcare and prescription drugs are indeed much less expensive, although unless you are a citizen or married to an Italian you will have to pay into the health system, plus there are co-pays for everything except your primary care doctor. You can't buy non-prescription drugs anywhere but in a pharmacy, and many of those are more expensive than in the U.S., sometimes a lot more. Of course the food and wine are of higher quality, plus there's the wonderful culture, history, architecture, etc. etc. You have to determine for yourself if it's worth the extra cost to live there. I just think one needs all the facts in order to make a well-informed decision.
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miki184
9/9/2019 11:15 EST
Hi Dave,
Just a few considerations to what you have said regarding costs in Italy.
4)traveling is expensive if you like to drive due to gasoline costs and freeway tolls(the farther you drive on the freeway the more you pay. You can take the train but it's not always a pleasant experience)
This is true and you should also realize just how expensive the train is. I am planning two trips and will be taking the plane from Bergamo. Incredibly enough the train trip (approx. and 1 hour or 1.5 depending on the train I choose) costs more than the train ticket! So keep that in mind if you are planning on traveling.
Now, healthcare and prescription drugs are indeed much less expensive, although unless you are a citizen or married to an Italian you will have to pay into the health system, plus there are co-pays for everything except your primary care doctor.
This is sort of true - but EVERYONE pays for health care. You just don't notice it as it is included in your taxes which is one of the reasons that if you move abroad (as an Italian citizen or someone who receives an Italian pension) you will receive more in your INPS pension than if you live in Italy. They don't take out taxes for services such as health care. And you can get non-prescription drugs in some Iper supermarkets or special non prescription drug stores. At least in the North.
I definitely agree with you on each case is different and of course it depends on where you live and what you have.
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whidden39
9/9/2019 11:53 EST
Wow. Food in Puglia is inexpensive and eating out is a bargain. No 20% tip that has become standard in the US. Whole foods are locally sourced (often 0 km) without fanfare and are high quality at the weekly town market and downright cheap. Cooking in the cucina povera style is healthy, delicious, and saves a ton of money. I live in a microclimate that gives me hot summer days and cool breezy nights. These stone houses stay cool anyway. I’ve been using air conditioning two of three times each summer since I moved to my home here four years ago. I heat and cool on a room by room basis, not the whole house as one does in the US. Prescriptions and medical services are reasonably priced. I have used the health system for serious interventions with excellent results. The wealth tax is about €200 per €100,000 in assets per year. If you’re of modest means, it’s not a deal breaker. If you are mega wealthy and are independent (daddy’s not controlling the purse), maybe it’s time to let go a bit to enjoy another (better? You’re call) way of life. The obvious thing for those that are hung up on the comparative balance sheet is to stay in the US comfort zone. Otherwise, you have to get back to what inspired the idea of living in Italy. This sometimes gets a bit tedious as in ‘knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing’.
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Shtinky
9/9/2019 14:52 EST
I have to take issue with some of your comments. These are relative to my region, Umbria. it is in the dead center of Italy. I moved from Virginia. I happened to buy a place in Umbria. Here are my observations.
1. One big difference/savings is that you pay no property tax on your prima casa, or primary home. I paid $7,500 a year for my townhouse 5 years ago, more now I’m sure. HUGE savings.
2. Here a 2 bedroom apartment of ~1,200 sq feet will cost about €600 a month. A one bedroom can cost as little as €300. No way you could find that in VA
3. We only use AC about 3 or 4 times a year since it cools off at night.
4. I used to shop the farmers markets for local produce and spent a fortune in Virginia. Here you can buy a huge bag of pristine, local vegetables and fruits for €5.00
5. Trains are cheap. I can go to Florence from here for €11. How can you say that is expensive?!
6. We are on the Italian national health system which costs us €1200 for the year. We have no copays except for tests. Blood work is €10 . EKG is €26. If I go private an MRI is €126. Tell me if You could do that in the US. Knee replacement surgery? Cost zero euro.
6. We have friends visiting. They are constantly thinking they are being undercharged. They go for breakfast - a cappuccino, an Americano, and two delicious pastries - price? €4.20 . In the US? Double, triple?
7. Two white wines in the Piazza? €3.50. America? At least $8.00 EACH.
8. Yes gas is more expensive. But we don’t drive a lot. And our car gets 45 miles per gallon. Tolls aren’t that bad. We drive to Rome to the airport and the total toll for our trip is €4.60.
9. We don’t find our utility bills that much more than we paid stateside. But many people say they pay more. We try to be frugal. Dry our clothes on the line. Keep the temps set at reasonable levels.
So these are my 2 cents worth of observations. I think it is a lot less expensive to live here. And the quality of life is great. Happy I came.
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miki184
9/9/2019 15:39 EST
Hey Shtinky,
That sounds great, but that's where you live, just like in the States. In Florida for instance, property taxes for a 1,700 sq ft run less than $2,000 and there are no state income taxes.
As far as Italy goes, lucky you! My little one bedroom in Emilia Romagna costs roughly 640 euro per month (depends on the condominium which changes according year to year based on maintenance costs) and that's a real bargain!
The family doctor is free, but every visit to a specialist is between 25 and 35 euro per visit. My last blood test was more than 8 years ago and cost me 96 euro. EKG's are about 50 if you do it in the Dr.'s office and a health certificate (required for the gym) is 50 euro.
One white wine in the square? Depends on the wine but it would be between 5 and 8 euro a glass. Remember to make the conversion to dollars.
All I want to point out is that it depends a heck of a lot on where you live and what you want. I know I could never live in a place like Umbria (I have so I know), way too quite for me. I'm not knocking it but as they say tutti gusti sono gusti
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miki184
9/9/2019 15:39 EST
Hey Shtinky,
That sounds great, but that's where you live, just like in the States. In Florida for instance, property taxes for a 1,700 sq ft run less than $2,000 and there are no state income taxes.
As far as Italy goes, lucky you! My little one bedroom in Emilia Romagna costs roughly 640 euro per month (depends on the condominium which changes according year to year based on maintenance costs) and that's a real bargain!
The family doctor is free, but every visit to a specialist is between 25 and 35 euro per visit. My last blood test was more than 8 years ago and cost me 96 euro. EKG's are about 50 if you do it in the Dr.'s office and a health certificate (required for the gym) is 50 euro.
One white wine in the square? Depends on the wine but it would be between 5 and 8 euro a glass. Remember to make the conversion to dollars.
All I want to point out is that it depends a heck of a lot on where you live and what you want. I know I could never live in a place like Umbria (I have so I know), way too quite for me. I'm not knocking it but as they say tutti gusti sono gusti
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Spudbunny
9/9/2019 16:22 EST
Lots of great information, thanks. Some points of comparison. In the United States, governments pay about half of the health care bill. So your private payments are only part of the story. Also, Medicare pays about 60 percent of the cost of the services which means medical providers increase their bills to private insurers to make money. In Italy, some part of health care costs are paid through taxes. It seem also that some people have private insurance and payments. In general Italy devotes just under 9 percent of GDP to health care; the US devotes twice that. But here's a consideration: a large part of health care outlays in the US are in the final year of life. As a retiree, does Italy's reduced spending affect care during that final year? If it does, does it matter...then, not now.
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glorirz
9/9/2019 22:49 EST
Cost really is so location dependent. I live in California north of Los Angeles. I pay about $4500 a year in property taxes. I just qualified for Medicare, and with a supplemental policy and drug coverage it’s about $275/month. If I chose HMO coverage it’d be about $150 a month but I want to choose my doctors and have more freedom. Most of our health care costs go to insurance executives and shareholders. Trust me, I’m a health care provider. I know. We find that food is cheaper in Italy, and eating out away from tourist areas is cheaper. And of course caffè e vino is cheaper in Italy.
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Shtinky
9/10/2019 02:43 EST
Well sure! Of course there are differences. And everyone likes what they like. But I think it’s useful to share actual costs with people who are thinking of coming here. And costs from different places are always helpful.
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rsetzer99
9/10/2019 03:46 EST
Dave 2108 give fair assessment. Utility costs are higher. Wood burnering stoves are common. Rather than central heating, one gets the hang of zone heating. Just the rooms you are using. ---- Non prescription drug costs is accurate. We get around it by having visitors bring us big jars of the most common. Their luggage probably sounds like maracas!! :) ---- Yes a larger car will cost. There is a reason there are so many Pandas on the road. Our little diesel gets a ton of milage, fits in tiny Italian parking spaces and zips through even the most narrow village lanes. It is surprisingly roomy for a tiny car, ---- As in everywhere, it depends where you live. In Abruzzo a tourist price meal will cost about 40eu per person, all in. In local places 15 to 25. --- Bus is often an excellent alternative to train. Abruzzo to Rome is three and a half hours, 25EU or less and the bus is modern with wifi on board. --- Medical? Copays are very low and just for elective stuff. 40EU or so is what we usually see. ---- At the end of the day it is the same as the US. It depends where you live and your intended lifestyle. And once you are there you can often find a way to save money with a bit of looking.
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HenryGiovanni
9/11/2019 18:35 EST
HI All,
I've been trying to avoid having another post on this thread, but it seems unavoidable.
Yes: I came from San Diego, CA, where everything costs more. We now live in Padova, in the Veneto, rather farther North of San Diego.
Some costs: a 3&2 condo here cost me 40% of the remaining balance on my mortgage when we sold the 3&2 CA house. The size is minimally smaller because we had a family room there, and it's a condo and not a house. Condo fees are about $50/mo, depending on work. I miss my own yard, but I'll survive. The cost included a brand-new independent heating system for our condo.
Gas used to cost me $50/week/car, minimum. I often had to fill up twice per week on one of the cars. We always had 4-cylinder cars. We have a Fiat Panda with, I think, a 1200 cc engine. It's small, parks in tight places, and uses benzina (gasoline) and GPL (propane). The cost to fill it when empty is maybe EU 14 for the GPL. The mileage is so good I haven't bothered to figure it out. We drove from Padova to Cinque Terre in May; round trip for GPL and A-road tolls was just about EU 100. One can often find quite nice free roads just beside the A-roads; these are called Tangenziales or similar (Strada Statale (SS), or even Strada Regionale (SR)). Even so, I use the bicycle for most small trips around town. And by the way, I never use the benzina side of the tank, though I keep it about half-full at all times. In the last 14 months I've paid, maybe, EU 60 for benzina. If the GPL runs out, the car switches automatically over to benzina. Or I can switch it manually. I make sure the GPL remains high, and fill it every one or two weeks, sometimes longer.
We used AC maybe 12x this last summer, and I believe I'm doubling that number to be safe. Neither of us much like AC, so I installed ceiling fans in the rooms, including in the West-facing bathroom that does get pretty hot in summer. Had fans in all the rooms in CA; they're cheaper than AC and move the air.
The wife is Italian, so I'm on that health system. I'm not quite 65, which is the threshold for free (almost) health care. I recently had blood tests (EU 20.50) and an EKG (EU 45.05). Other costs are minimal. She had a foot operation earlier this year. I don't know the final cost on that, but it would have been at least USD $10G stateside. I would be surprised (very surprised!) is she paid more than EU 500 total for all the ancillary things such an operation requires (meds and stuff at the farmacia). Those med costs reduced her tax burden to zero, and the tax prep work followed it right down, so her tax return prep and filing cost us nothing.
Huge difference: the vet for the cats. Took one in today for EU 42, which included a shot and the next check-up visit. Those costs in CA were ridiculously high. The office visit was a mere EU 23. with ten for the shot and a VAT of seven. Plus some cents here and there.
Trains: I can get from Padova to Santa Lucia in Venezia for EU 4.25 one-way. In 25 minutes I'm standing on the Grand Canal. Buy the ticket in the Tabaccheria right next to the ticket office inside the station and don't stand in line wondering if you'll get the ticket before the train leaves.
We mostly eat at home, but sometimes find ourselves out with the Italian family. If we've been hiking in the hills, then we can expect to pay around EU 10 or 11 each for a really good lunch with a liter of wine to split. In town, that might rise to EU 15 each. We avoid the tourist-priced places. A spritz downstairs at the cafe costs EU 2.50 for a full-size drink. Half a km away in the "center" of our small town it costs EU 3.50 at happy hour, which means free food to boot. Also full-size. In Padova, it's EU 3.50, usually; full-size. In Cinque Terre, it was EU 7.50 for a half-sized drink. Same with Venezia. Just avoid the tourist places. We usually get a little bit off the beaten track and the prices become normal again. Also, whenever we do go out, we always order the house wine. I've only been disappointed maybe once. The local wine is invariably good and sometimes even surprisingly so. Coffee and a brioche for breakfast is just plain cheap. One can have a panino and a drink for lunch at a cafe in Padova for around EU 8 each, maybe less.
The other food we get either at the KM Zero or the local bio shop or the large supermarket. The supers rotate their sales items, so one can buy meat and dairy for pretty cheap. And it seems like the rotations are made to favor the consumer. I never pay full price for coffee, for instance. When it comes on sale, I buy more. The KM Z food is fresh, local, and cheap, in addition to being bio. I keep an eye on the cheese sales, and like to buy new things I've never tried in a size that costs around EU 2.00 just to try them. On meat, when the size gets too small to use on the slicing machine, they pack it up and sell it at bargain-basement prices. I can pick up enough ham for some eggs and a bean soup for EU 1.50. Two meals for one low price. I can also try exotic bits without spending a fortune before knowing if I even like the taste. The bad news: Italian ground beef is not as good as US ground beef; it's got a tougher taste and doesn't make very good hamburgers.
I'm still trying to average my utility bills. We had some problems and it took us a year to get the old owner's name off the condo for utility purposes. That included some lost mail and the consequent penalties. But I suspect that it will even out. However, one is required to go down, read the meter, and submit the number online, unlike SDG&E or the water folks, who had meter-readers come around each month. Anyway, the bills don't come monthly over here, so it's hard getting an average monthly number (not really hard, just a pain). If you don't do the meter bit then they will estimate your usage at a higher level than actual usage.
On knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing, here's the final word. I needed a bare minimum income of USD $5G/month in San Diego to cover all costs without splurging. Here, I can live on less than half that amount and still have some left over to help the kids when they need it. All the notes above are the costs; this is the value. I don't plan on returning and won't mind being buried forever in Italia.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Cheers, John.
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Umbertomar
9/12/2019 02:58 EST
HG
What a great post !
Here is an internet source for cost comparison between Padova and San Diego. . https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Italy&city1=San+Diego%2C+CA&city2=Padova&tracking=getDispatchComparison
The results look close to your analysis.
I am in a lower cost area of Italy than Padova and came from a lower cost area of the US and the result is about the same and maybe more favorable towards Italy on a percentage basis..
I cannot put a number on the superior life in Italy vs. where I as in the US.
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