Ecuador Expat Forum - Living in Loja

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wwwman
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7/15/2010 20:36    
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Hello:

I'm intensively investigating everything associated with moving to Ecuador early next year and a 3-week excursion is planned in the next few months.

I've emigrated once already and I have no misconceptions about the challenges involved in moving from Canada to Ecuador.

I'm zeroing in on Cuenca as the first place to start looking but I've heard that Loja is an extraordinary city. However, no one ever mentions it. Are there any expats living in Loja and if so, would they share some of their experiences of what life is like in this city?

Thanks in advance.

Alan

alanj1
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7/15/2010 22:59    
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Alan

No matter what anyone else tells you, it will never be what you need to see for yourself, with your own eyes and your own heart. No one can do that for you.

You have shown the heart and spirit of an adventurer already in your decision to move to Ecuador. Frankly, as someone who has lived here previously twice, left, and is coming home to my heart, I can say that with some authority, but I can't say it for you!

I lived most of my 10 years in and around Quito and Northern Ecuador. I have been to the Oriente in the very heart of the Amazon. I have been sunburned on one of the most beautiful beaches ion the world in a little know town named Muisne, where we had to take a dugout canoe ride to get there.

There were vacations to Jipijapa to a grass hut that El Nino washed away, as well as the beaches at Esmeraldas and Atacames. The trips to Hacienda Lasso and La Avelina, Chordelec and El Meson.

Cuenca just happens to be the third most popular City, but did you just plan to go there and stay? There's Riobamba, Ibarra, and then there is Loja in the Southern tip of Ecuador, where some of the best coffee is grown.

Loja is a beautiful city based on photos and research. As of this moment I have never been there, but talking to my Ecuadorian friends I can assure you there would be no disappointment in living there.

But in the end, you have to determine that. You're the only one who can. Ecuador calls to you from many places, but you must decide where you want to answer.

Demi
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7/16/2010 20:45    
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It is a wonderful feeling to be exuberant about starting a new adventure. I know the feeling well. Just keep in mind that "One man's heaven is another man's hell". Experience the place for yourself. Very often people fall in love with the cyber-image of a place, or a "conjured image of a place and once that abstract experience becomes a reality, disappointment settles in. It is rare for somebody who has never been to a place to really find happiness there. Most often, people go to a place and "fall in love with it" and think they will be happy forever- until after two or three years and then the infatuation dissipates. I know the feeling well! I was infatuated with Cuenca, and then, two years later, wondered how I could have been so much in love with such a boring place. The food is not that good there, unless, of course, you are the type of person who does not have a high standard for eating. The central park there becomes a very hackneyed experience. My friends in Quito even wondered why I would pick any town in the Sierras to live in except Quito. I recommend that you try one of the seaside places. Do a long-term rental and see how it sets with you. Don't buy! The place I am now considering is Colombia. It is quite beautiful and culturally sophisticated. The music is great and there is lots of diversity among the people- and very beautiful women. Ecuador is a nice place- but very dull. Most of my Ecuadorian friends all think that Colombia is the place to be for a more fun life-style.

HGQ2112
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7/17/2010 03:32    
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Wow! Ecuador as "boring"? Now, anyone been on this forum more than 15 minutes knows that I do *not* recommend any "mountain location" outside of Quito. Boring is something I have never found the coastal areas to be...nor Guayaquil. Demi...you might just need a different crowd to hang with...lol. However, the mountain regions ...well...lol.

HGQ

I can resist everything except temptation -
Oscar Wilde

boncur
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7/17/2010 08:30    
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Demi, I do agree with what you are saying about restaurants IN GENERAL in the Sierra, because I am a picky eater with higher standards for taste, preparation, quality, creativity, etc., and basically the food here leaves something to be desired, except in higher end places in Quito and Guay... and even then, a $50 meal can be disappointing. But you have to remember one thing---what is boring to you, as a seasoned, adventure-seeker, would not be to most of the ex pats relocating here. Let's face it, there are not too many people who would like that "wild way of living" that Colombia has to offer! Yeah, you are sitting with Juan Valdez, drinking a good cup of coffee, wild loud salsa music blaring, beautiful young tightly dressed Colombian sashaying aroung... as the guerrillas come in to shoot up the village...someone visiting you from the states gets kidnapped because the local militia of FARC needs funds....hmmm. I knew some American teachers who were teaching at the 'American school' up there in Cali and they were told right off by the principal that "we do not correct the children of the richer families (meaning narco), we just pass the children." In so many words, 'don't make trouble.'

I DO agree that Colombia is superior to Ecuador in many ways, after all, there is a Haagen Daz ice cream store in Bogota! Also it's technologically superior, possibly because it's closer to Miami. Colombia has always been ahead of Ecuador on many fronts and we used to drive up there to shop. The Colombians are extremely intelligent people, lots of culture and many good Colombian films, and the arts are exalted there. Too bad the country has been 'fragmented' so! When we were in Miami some years ago we met Doctors, Lawyers, University Professors, Scientists, who were doormen, and parking cars because they had to leave their country because of the stupid and ridiculous 'Civil War.' Many of us just don't know how many middle class people up there got caught in the crossfire!

The Colombian people are very good people, I used to live there (last time, 1976), although that hardly counts. It's a shame that all these young people there have no jobs to go to, no aspirations to put into motion, etc., and when the Guerrillas come along and give them a uniform and a 'position' they join up without hesitation. I dread to think how the place is going to morph this year with the Gringo Military up there, more of this futile "drug war" and next door, Hugo Chavez chomping at the bit...

No, I just can't picture too many of these expats going to live in Colombia. I would think that at least a few years in Ecuador as a 'warm-up' might be required.

boncur
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7/17/2010 08:50    
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Hector, I somewhat agree with you about the 'mountain regions' of Ecuador, generally speaking, not for everyone. BUT if people have a plan and something to do, possibly a previous connection, and their lives just do not depend on social activities, etc., then there is no better place than the Andes mountains here in which to be free to do whatever project you want to do! Not everyone can just do that right off the bat and it does take some careful planning and the ability to "do your thing." Also, I think that speaking Spanish is more important when living in the 'mountain regions.' In the big cities, the culture is "buffered" for most expats, more pasteurized, more homogenized, more 'western, first world' amenities... less blatant cultural differences to smack you in the face.

However, if you are a city person, only can live within that structure, depend on other people around constantly and need the 'security' of a city, well then I recommend a long visit to the highlands to see if it is for you. Apparently there IS quite an expat social structure down there in Cuenca, and many expats need this. It wouldn't be for me, but then again, I'm not really an expat anymore, as 30 years denotes 'going native.' I do admit that I wonder what all the older expats do in Cotacachi, if they are only living in an apartment. Time will tell.

HGQ2112
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7/17/2010 16:48    
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Hay Margarita...maybe my taste buds are slipping...but I'll take Pinguino over Haagen Daz any day...and I can trip over a Pinguino every five feet in Salinas...lol.

HGQ
I can resist everything except temptation -
Oscar Wilde

HGQ2112
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7/17/2010 16:53    
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Hey the Andes are beautiful and they are right for some...*I* just don't recommend them...lol. Plenty of folks obviously do...or Cuenca wouldn't have become "Expat central" in Ecuador. And one person's boredom, can become another person's paradise. But to broadly label Ecuador as "boring"...wow! Just...wow! You must be trying *not* to have fun. Ecuador can be as much fun as Colombia - minus the gunfire - if you know where to look. Just that sometimes...that "looking" gets harder in the mountains than on the coast...that's all. Btw, I am bullish on Colombia, as I am on Ecuador, so don't read too much into that whole "gunfire" comment...it is...after all...me commenting...lol.

HGQ

I can resist everything except temptation -
Oscar Wilde

reemiles
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7/17/2010 17:29    
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Ah Demi, Demi, Demi. Your remarks have caused me to venture forth from my observer status on this forum. I used to be an active participant but other priorities overrode the forum as my personal contribution to discussion about Ecuador and the expat life here. Dealing with the dozens of queries coming in from our blog readers takes up just about all the time and energy we are willing to devote to the topic of living in Ecuador. Consequently, I am now scanning this forum daily, just to keep a finger on the pulse as it were. Glad to see Hector, Carol,Boncur, Silverwater, ILA and the others giving good advice and information to the current generation of folks hungry for the inside "skinny" of living here. Thumbs up to all of you.

However, I can't seem to resist springing to the defense of Cuenca once again. This is a wonderfully vibrant city with LOTS of things to do. A world-class symphony, dozens of bars and clubs, an energetic art community and some great restaurants make up a short list. Anyone who says that dining here is boring has not eaten at Tiestos, The Terrace, Akelare, Mangiane, Mediterraneo, Otabe or Kookaburra and California Kitchen for more familiar fare. How about the roast pig at any of the people's markets? If Cuenca is boring and lacking good food, you're not trying hard enough!

Geez.

ILA
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7/18/2010 03:18    
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Hey Demi,
I'd say holster up and mosie on up to Columbia,du tout au tout.but will you really be able to move on,having experienced the power and the glory of "expat central"LOL. Wouldn't your heart pine just a bit.
As Oscar the Wilde says"One mans meat is another man's poison." Nothing wrong with that.
I have consistently been derisive about Queen Cuenca but I may be wrong for the many reasons,pointed out by reemiles and Boncur.
Boncur also vividly and accurately describes Colombia but hey,life in the fast lane,may be just what Demi needs.Who could have imagined it.Demi abandons Cuenca for the bright lights and temptations of Colombia.
I felt BOXED IN,in the Bitterroot valley.I cannot be in any mountains anywhere, except briefly and the briefer the better.
Legend has it that expats LAST in Cuenca two years.
Your summation "boring" as opposed to"infatuated" speaks volumes about your own needs and wants and interpretation, Not necessarily others' If only it were so that we could all be identical.
You appear to be a restless explorer with wanderlust,I relate.
I am a camel /tent admirer myself.
Colombia and all the tantalising lures, you depicted in your rather shocking pronouncement to (those avid ecuador fans,I am one of those)seems a bit over the top or out of the box.Are you going through a LATE mid life crisis?
Hope you survive both the crisis and Colombia.
Please keep in touch. We all want regular updates, as to your adventures there and whether you ever reached your goal. Personally,the Chinese or was it Oscar the Wilde,always say,if they don't like someone"Hope you have an interesting life" I've had a hells bells interesting life.I am now hoping for "boring" I work on "boring". I try to achieve "boring". Boring" is my great quest.
Look out Colombians,Demi is coming soon!
BEST from the aspiring bore.

boncur
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7/18/2010 12:40    
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Hector, Nothing in the world like Haagen Daz! BUT, Penguino is not too bad! I like the 'sanduches' and the 'creme royal' (the one with orange and vanilla). The Magnate is not too bad either! When in Quito, on Ave. Portugal on the little "gourmet food strip" there is Corfu--not bad.

Demi
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7/19/2010 15:24    
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ILA- hi! I was happy to read your comments. I welcome feedback because it is great food for thought, and helps to broaden a person's mind. I have been to Colombia for a few months at a time to "test the waters". Cartagena is an architectural gem, but the heat is too intense for me. Medellin has lovely weather(siempre primavera), high culture, and beautiful women in abundance. I would like to settle in there and check out the life style. For more than a month I sampled living in Pereira and the city had a nice pace of life as well as spring-like weather; but the crime situation deterred me from staying any longer than the month. Yes, I am still idling too fast to be able to be a Cuencano. I do think that I have to get this Bedouin lust for wandering around out of me. I never married and the tastes of domesticity that I do have from time to time never seem to convince me to choose a farmer's way of life. Even my long stay in the Philippines couldn't do it. I found a magical place there sandwiched between mountains blanketed with coconut trees and blue/green seas; teeming with sweet fruits and fresh fish; white sand beaches and lovely, congenial people who welcomed me with open arms; and added to this all, I had a dark-haired beauty who was very easy to get along with and who was a gentle companion. I lasted for a year and a half(a record for me!). Even paradise can get stale- that was my conclusion. Maybe that is why Mother Nature invented mortality, otherwise after we passed-on our tents would be pitched in paradise for eternity. Nowhere else to go! That Mother Nature- she is a wise one!

boncur
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7/19/2010 15:59    
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Demi, if you have it in you for Colombia--well--ships ahoy! I know Pereira, and surrounding Armenia, Girardo, Neives, that is coffee country, but unfortunately also guerilla country. Do you know about San Agustin? It's a little artsy town that you may like. For city living, great climate, and ampted up culture, of course Medellin. Bogota is culturally rich, but cold. Popayan is an academic town in the south, but staid. Cali is very amped up and hot, not as hot as Cartegena (which I love)! Good luck to you and let us know how it is up there for you.

HGQ2112
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7/19/2010 16:17    
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Demi - I'd recommend - in fact, I actually do - the stretch of Colombian coast from Cartagena to Santa Marta. Enjoy!

HGQ
I can resist everything except temptation -
Oscar Wilde

boncur
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7/19/2010 18:24    
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That stretch is nice, Cartagena, Baranquilla, Santa Marta, but you had better not go any further east...Palomino starts the Guarjira desert and the Indians there are very bravo, lots of narco airstrips and no man's land.

HGQ2112
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7/19/2010 18:45    
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Margarita (boncur) - couldn't agree more on the words of wisdom.

HGQ
I can resist everything except temptation -
Oscar Wilde

ILA
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7/20/2010 15:01    
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Well demi,
As Oscar would say,TALLYHO

wwwman
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7/20/2010 17:36    
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Terrific thread, great comments, but where was I? Oh yes, I remember. Loja. Does anyone know anything about this city? Does anyone live there?

With regards to the "boring" bit. My knees don't salsa too well these days and if I could choose between music and silence, guess what I'd pick? Yes, you've guessed it. I'm a retired ol' fart and my favorite hobby these days is converting wine and whiskey into urine. Now that's boring ..... but I love it.

EcuadorDean
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From: Ecuador
7/20/2010 19:34    
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Having lived in Cuenca, Quito and Bahia I am curious about where you would go in Colombia. I belive the best place and climate is in Popayan.
I may return to give Ibarra another look. Loja is so noisey in the narrow downtown streets but has a nice climate.

ILA
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7/20/2010 23:21    
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Hi,
The Loja expert suspirar has not been posting, maybe a PM to her would elicit a response.
Loja is on our list to visit and may happen next trip down.I know it is a colonial town,with cobbled streets and architecture.
Seems like their botanical garden is worth a visit 6560 ft above sea level, 50 years old and 1000+ plant species.
Average temp is 60-69F.Loja,also ,is crossed by two rivers.
Vilcabamba is an hour south of Loja city and of course many Holistic gringos live there.Rumor has it that the gringo hierarchy makes it very unpleasant to try and fit in( El Cliqueo) Have NEVER been there either.People with heart disease do well there too,if they follow the regimen.
You can take a plane from Quito to Loja to La Toma airport or a 4 hour bus ride from Cuenca.The plane ride takes you to an airport 40 minutes drive to the city of Loja ($12.00 by taxi)Loja has several Universities. and is a very cultural city.It also has some nationally famous musicians.It is one of the cleanest, safest cities in Ecuador.Loja,also is an extremely religious city and especially devoted to "virgen del Cisne"(virgin of the swan)
It is interesting that Loja got over looked,in favor of Queen Cuenca.Loja has a population of 150,000.
All this info, came out of the ministerio de turismo 2010,booklet.No mention of any expats.
BEST

HGQ2112
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7/21/2010 01:44    
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Dean - not sure who the Colombia question was aimed at...but as I already stated in this thread, I prefer the stretch of Colombian coast from Cartagena to Santa Marta. Actually, the two furthest extreme points on that route representing my two favorite spots. I have heard many good arguments in favor of Baranquilla...but for my $$$$$, just doesn't have the amenities and upscale nature of Cartagena...nor the value and raw charm of Santa Marta. Either way...I am "settling" in Baranquilla. Not that I don't favor it...just not as much as Cartagena or Santa Marta.

HGQ
I can resist everything except temptation -
Oscar Wilde

MarJack
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7/21/2010 15:58    
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Wow, what great info from everyone--thank you so much! We will be souting re-locations in Ecuador from 8/5-28 then in Santa Marta, Colombia from the 8/28-9/4 departing BOG on 9/7 for SFO.

We're probably more interested in the Ecuadorian coast for expat relocation in one year but recently aware of Colombia and Cali/Medellin in particular...haven't checked out Popayan yet but do have safety concerns. I'm investigating teaching opportunities in the int'l schools (I'm CA credentialed K-12) and will be in touch with the Cali principal as well as those in Ecuador.

If any of you living in Ecuador would be willing to meet us, we would appreciate a face to face--dinner or lunch our treat!!!

Thanks,
MarJack

HGQ2112
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7/21/2010 21:12    
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MarJack - your concerns have given rise to my concerns. You seem to be doing it "right"...gather intel in advance. Taking a road trip to see for yourselves. All...well... excellent! So...it is rare when I make such comments to then follow-up by saying...what? You have safety concerns, but you are thinking about Cali and Medellin in Colombia? By a wide margin...Cali and Medellin have the highest rate of crime in Colombia...including all major violent crime categories...including being ranked #1 and #2 in murders per capita. Your objectives and reality seem at odds. Trust me...if you must do Colombia...and I consider Colombia a "buy"...strongly consider the Cartagena to Santa Marta strip, please.

HGQ
I can resist everything except temptation -
Oscar Wilde

MarJack
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7/21/2010 23:11    
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Dear HGQ,

Thank you so much for your info...I had no idea re: the crime in the two cities I'd selected. I have read many posts from expats in Medellin and all of them talk of their love of the city and don't mention anything about crime. We'll definitely rethink our expedition and will definitely explore the "strip" you suggest since we will be in SM for a week.

Again, thank you for your quick and cautionary response.

MarJack

HGQ2112
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7/22/2010 08:06    
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MarJack:

Ok...for starters. Colombia's overall per capita murder rate is 38.8 per 100,000 pop. (source: Interpol, via the UNODC report, http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html). For some perspective, the USA which leads the globe in homicides in absolute terms, on a per capita basis, has a 5.2 per 100,000 pop. homicide rate (source: same as preceding). Ecuador, which counts homicide as the *only* major crime category in which it performs more poorly than the USA, has a homicide per capita rate of 18.1 per 100,000 pop. (source: same as the preceding) As you can see, Colombia's numbers dwarf that of even Ecuador, let alone the USA. Then, citing from both a Colombian and a Mexican study on global crime, Jairo Libreros, a Colombian security expert lists the top homicide per capita cities in Colombia, leading with this statement:

“Lo propio sucede en ciudades como Cali donde se habla de 76 homicidios al año por cada 100 mil habitantes. La sigue Medellín con 65..." (source: El Pais, June 26, 2010 - http://www.elpais.com.co/elpais/judicial/noticias/ciudades-nuevo-foco-del-conflicto-armado).

The above translates to: "This occurs in cities like Cali where you speak of a murder rate that is 76 per 100,000 inhabitants. It is followed by Medellin with 65 [per capita]..."

That places Cali at over twice the already astronomically high Colombian per capita murder rate, with Medellin fast approaching those numbers. These are not admirable numbers and these are very "fresh" and recent stats. The rest of Colombia's major crime stats look equally menacing in places like Cali and Medellin, which lead the country on a per capita basis, in most violent crime categories.

Please...just tread carefully and with realistic expectations. Keep in mind, this does not reflect personal opinion or anecdotal "urban legends". It represents cold, hard fact.

HGQ
I can resist everything except temptation -
Oscar Wilde

lampshade65
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8/2/2010 20:32    
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Please write me at regina@laguna.com.mx
I would like to meet you when you visit Cuenca.

xllent
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4/23/2011 20:20    
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Hello,
Whaere did you decide to live?
Me and my wife want to move somewhere but can not decide,
Thanks

cmearl2
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4/23/2011 23:45    
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xllent: Who were you asking the question of? Perhaps they have already answered you.

Take care,

Chris

TonawandaFC
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4/25/2011 09:35    
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wwwman,
Hi! I lived in Loja for 5 yrs. & go back every summer for 2 months.
It depends on what you are looking for.
If you are looking for a lot of other expats you probably won't find them in Loja.
I know I never did. Some but very few.
I understand that now Vilcabamba has a big expat population.
Personally, for me, if I wanted to live w/ Gringos I would just stay here.
Loja is typical Sierra - laid back, quiet, kind of colonial. The people are slower to get to know (than compared to on the coast) but they are quiet, sweet, humble, friendly, patient & kind once you do get to know them.
I find it to be mellow & peaceful.
No it isn't anywhere near as small & quiet as it once was when I originally moved there in 1997.
Sadly, it has grown some but, to me it has a good balance.
It is a large enough city that you have available to you some of the stuff that might be lacking if you were in too rural an area yet "las afueras" (the places around the edges of the city) are rural enough that you could find a place to live that was peaceful & quiet while not being too far away from what you need.
Like everywhere in the world there is some crime but, in my opinion (being from Boston) I find it to be fairly low crime.
There are just enough ammenities & the climate is good. I would describe it as "perpetual spring" with a speck of summer & fall thrown in. Average daily temperature in my experience is 60-68F. Occasionally there will be a sort of hot day like 75F. Sometimes if it is windy & maybe rainy (Loja is located in a valley) w/ windchill you COULD see temps of 48F but it isn't the norm & this would be at night.
Prices are reasonable. Like everywhere the rents range. Depending on what you are looking for in terms of high end or just average. Phone is $8-$12 w/o long distance. Electricity (average) $12-$14 (unless you have a house full of people). Cooking gas is $1.60 per tank. Generally lasts around 1 month depending on how much or how little you cook.
It is about 1/2 hr. drive to the Catamayo airport which has Tame & other national airline flights to the big cities.
It has beautiful parks, cathedrals, museums & is close to Podocarpus, Vilcabamba, Malacatos, Zamora to name but a few.
If there is anything more specific that you would like to know please feel free to ask. Whatever I don't know off of the top of my head I can find out for you. I have family who still live there.
Hope this was of some help to you.
As other folks on here said regardless of how much I love Loja doesn't mean you will.
Always a good idea to go & check out a place & get a feel for it before commiting to it.
As someone so aptly put it "one man's paradise is another man's hell".
I love it but hey that's just me.........

All times are ET.  


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